Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin

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Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

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For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

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My castaway this week is the Reverend Rose Hudson Wilkin. The first black woman to be chaplain to Her Majesty the Queen and to the Speaker of the House of Commons, she's also kept busy with her work in less rarefied surroundings, ministering to two churches in East London in the borough of Hackney.

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It's all a long way from the crystal waters and swaying palms of Montego Bay, her birthplace, where, brought up by Aunt Pet, she coped with poverty and separation from her mother but she did have a sense at the age of just fourteen that her future lay in faith.

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She wasn't wrong. The combination of her belief and dynamism has taken her to the top.

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Or at least as close to it as the Church of England will currently allow. If they do eventually permit women bishops, it's easy to imagine that she'd be a shoo-in. She says, Oh, I have lots of ambition. You can't be Jamaican and not be ambitious. My ambition is to enjoy life. My ambition is to do everything I do to the best of my ability. And goodness knows, Rose Hudson Wilkin, it looks like you do a lot.

Presenter1:39

When I think of your life, I imagine that you're just sort of rushing round London, wrestling yourself in and out of chasubles and cassocks and clerical blouses. Is that about right?

Presenter1:50

That sounds just about right. So many different jobs, and today you are wearing something utterly splendid. Would you describe it? I'm wearing my red cassock. As a chaplain to Her Majesty the Queen, I'm entitled to wear a red cassock, so I'm wearing that red today. It looks utterly splendid. Your professional life then takes you from Hackney, as we know, to royal palaces, to Westminster.

Speaker 21:56

Yeah, I think

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Um the people that you're preaching to are in very different circumstances in these places. Do you moderate and change the the way you talk to them and the things you talk to them about?

Presenter2:21

Yes, I think when you're speaking to folks, you have to speak to them in the context that they're in. So although I may go into Patois from time to time in my parish in Hackney, I may not quite use Patois as such in the Commons or in Parliament or preaching in one of Her Majesty's chapels. You're such an elegant-looking woman, and I have heard that you staged a protest on the roof of your church. It's true, is it? I did. Shortly after I got to Hackney, I walked into church one day when it was raining, and water was literally pouring through. And I was so cross because, of course, there were lots of developments going on in the area, and no money was coming towards this place of sanctuary. And so I climbed the roof and stayed there for 24 hours. You didn't warn anybody you were doing it? No, I just got up there. Looking back, I wish I had stayed on the roof because people actually gave money towards helping to mend the roof. I'm just wondering if your husband called you and said, Rose, no. Well, he has made me promise not to do anything crazy again. This is a great list of music we're going to hear today. Truly, something for everybody, I think. It is not particularly holy. What's been your premise for choosing the music today? Well, it reflects a bit of me.

Speaker 23:24

Well he

Speaker 23:31

Yeah.

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of who I am. The first one is a Calypso song. I just absolutely love Calypso. And this one in particular, wherever I am, if I heard it, then I've just got to dance.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin4:05

Let's go.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin4:10

Mary Roberts Robbo

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin4:14

Feeling hot, hot, hot.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin4:18

Beat it hot, hot, hot.

Presenter4:31

That was arrow and feeling hot, hot, hot, and you managed, Rose, to restrain yourself there. You were half dancing in your seats. Yes. Um your appointment back in June twenty ten then as chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons caused a degree of interest, I think we can uh suitably say. You described it as a hullabaloo in the press. Why do you think there was such a hullabaloo?

Speaker 24:34

There you are half dancing in your seat.

Speaker 24:44

You describe

Speaker 24:46

So why do you think the war is

Presenter4:49

Well, I I really wish I knew. I'm sure in previous years there have been dissension in terms of, you know, who do we have in this particular role. But I guess the press took a keen interest because I wasn't the normal establishment figure. You've said that being a woman you have to be twice as good as a man and being black three or four times as good as a white person. Can you pick out a particular experience you've had that illuminates that for people?

Speaker 24:57

There

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Well, I think it's just life in general. I think it's life in general for myself and for many women and for many people of colour throughout the world. For example, every time we say we want more black people or we want more women in roles, various roles across the spectrum, what do you hear people saying? Oh, but we have to have the right person, you know, they have to have the right skills. You know, of course women have the skills. Why would women, why would black people be applying for a role that they were not fit for? So that disturbs me. Are you able somehow to separate people's prejudice from the person themselves? You know, there are those who this is ingrained because this is how they were brought up. They were taught that. And it's not easy to unteach yourself something. And so you have to respond with a level of generosity and love. Tell me about your second piece of music. What are we going to hear now, Rose Hudson-Broken? Zadok the Priest. And why have you chosen this? I was very lucky to be in the congregation when the Queen celebrated her Jubilee. And it was just so moving a piece. For me, it speaks of the reality of this person who is in this role as a queen, not just being there purely by accident, but actually being there because she has been anointed by God. And so, you know, it's just an amazing piece. It takes me back to those epics of movies where, you know, things are happening and you're in another world. And that's what it felt like when I was there and when I hear this piece.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin8:02

Rejoice.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin8:04

Great George!

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin8:07

Take drops.

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Handel Zadok the Priest, sung by the choir of Westminster Abbey with Trevor Pinnock on the organ, directed by Simon Preston. Sir Rose Hudson Wilkin, you were born in Montego Bay in Jamaica at the very beginning of the sixties. You were about two years old then when your mum left to go to England, as many people did from that region, encouraged to come to England for a better life. Can you remember her going?

Speaker 28:29

Region and the city.

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I have no recollection of my mother whatsoever until I met her years and years later. And who was Aunt Pet? Aunt Pet was my father's sister. And when my mother left, my mother left us with our father. And she thought that my father couldn't even care for himself, which was very true. Never mind two young girls. And so she assumed the responsibility of looking after us. Tell me then about life in Montego Bay, because of course when we go there as tourists, what do we see? We see the gleaming sands, we see the pristine white hotels, everything's rather jazzy. What was your home like? Well, I grew up in a tenement yard. Probably the equivalent here would be a rundown estate. And, you know, you didn't feel as if there was anything wrong with you because everyone else around you were in the same situation. And that was life. And you simply got on with it. And so things like electricity, running water, did you have that? Not in the house, no. There was a little standpipe. And so as children, we had to go and get the water, fill up the oil drum pan, which was right near to the house, so that the adults didn't have to do that. And you carried the little tiny cheese stin, and then you graduated to a bucket, and then something bigger as you got older. And was a fuss made of you, you know? Oh, no. Rose's mum isn't here, and that's. Oh, no, oh, no, none of that sort of stuff. You know, they fed you and they watered you and they clothed you, and you ought to know from that that you are loved and cared for. It was just not a language that was used.

Speaker 29:55

Oh no,

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin9:57

Next.

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You saw your mother properly for the first time then, as you remember it, when you were about ten years old. How did you get on?

Speaker 210:16

Mm.

Presenter10:18

Well, she just appeared. We were told that she had come back from from England and had set up home in Kingston, which was the capital, and that she was coming down to take us.

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To live with her.

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There was a little part of us that felt excited, but also some trepidation because she really was a stranger. We didn't know her. And, you know, I am one of hundreds and thousands of children whose parents left them in Jamaica, came to England to make a better life, and they either later joined them or they came back. And how did it go?

Presenter10:58

It didn't go great. I was sent back within two years to Montego Bay, and my older sister stayed behind. So my sister, who I'd grown up with for all these years together, suddenly we were separated, and that was awful. Did your mother have other children, Badam? Oh, yes. When she came to England, she found someone else, and they got married and started a family. So she now had five children. And I think that was a very difficult time, a very tricky time for me. Yes. And I think that must have expressed itself. And my mother felt this cookie is a tough one. You know, she is not rolling over. And so they couldn't handle me. I don't think I was a bad child. I never was. And my older sister, too. I once went to visit her in California. And when I was leaving at the airport, she wailed. And it wasn't until I revisited her again and we were talking and we were both crying together that it suddenly dawned on me. She said to me, Rose, when Mama sent you away, that was such a painful time for me. I cried myself to sleep. Until you had that conversation with your sister, had you allowed yourself to cry ever about that? Or did that come really late?

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I think it came late.

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Because I was always one of those people that this is the dice that life has thrown you.

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And you're going to get on with it.

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Not a bad policy, generally. Let's have your third piece of music then. What are we going to hear? My third piece of music is Many Rivers to Cross by Jimmy Cliff. And I remember as a child listening to him singing this and being moved by it. But more recently, also, I have had it sung at funerals, memorial services of young people who have died in my parish or in my area. And I can just see the faces of the mothers, the families, the pain.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin12:38

Okay.

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And I can connect, I can connect with that pain.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin13:14

That loneliness won't leave me alone.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin13:20

It's such a trend!

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That was Jimmy Cliff and Many Rivers to Cross. Called by God, Rose Hudson Wilkins. I want you to describe what form it took, what happened exactly. Well, I was fourteen years old when I first had this overwhelming sense that I was being called. I had a dream one night, and in the dream I started calling out, you know.

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And it it woke the household up, and I reached for the Bible.

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And it fell open. And I'm not one of these people, you know, the Bible falls open, God must be saying something. It fell open. And I just sort of looked down, and it was the words in Luke where Jesus said, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me and sent me to preach good news. And the next morning, I was using a sort of daily reflection booklet, and blow me down. It was the words from Isaiah, which were the exact same words that Jesus had used in the Gospel. And it said the same thing: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because He has anointed me. And those words just stuck with me. You had had, as we've just heard it so poignantly described by you, you'd had a complex young life. How much do you think, as a teenager, the certainty, the routine, the embracing nature of the church appealed to you because of the complexity that had come to the fore? Absolutely at the heart of it. Someone once said, if your leg is broken and you need a crutch to get from A to B, are you going to say, oh no, I'm not going to use it because it's a crutch? And so some people might say, oh, you know, is your faith a crutch?

Presenter15:27

Well, I don't know whether it is a crutch or not, but all that I know is that it has saved me and I think I'm a better human being for it. All the books tell me that I should be something different because of the various experiences that I've had, but I'm not a victim. I am a well-rounded human being, and I give God thanks for that. Let's have some more music, Rose. Tell me about this. What are we going to hear next? Aha! You are going to hear next R-E-S-B-C-T. This song by Aretha Franklin, I grew up listening to it, and in particular, I grew up listening to it at a time when there were stories coming through on the radio about what was going on in South Africa, the apartheid system. I grew up listening to some of the atrocities that were still taking place in the United States of America. And of course, when my family came here, when my mother came here, her brother, and I'm only being told this afterwards, some of those same atrocities were taking place here. They didn't write home and tell the folks at home about it. And so that song was the sort of anthem that I would sing to say, please, we're human beings. Treat us with respect, not because of the colour of our skin. And of course, we could broaden it out now, not because of our gender, not because of our disability, or because of our sexuality. Treat people with dignity, with respect.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:05

Kiss it.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:11

So here's mama.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:15

Do for me, skip it to me when you get late.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:18

Damn, play with me, whip and jump it right, just get on

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:25

R E S B three three four nine

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:29

Hi.

Presenter17:36

R-E-S P-E-C-T respect. That was Aretha Franklin, and you were giving Aretha a run for her money there, I have to tell people, Rose Hudson Wilkins. So we know a little bit about your role at Westminster. You are also Honorary Canon at St Paul's Cathedral, and, as I mentioned, chaplain to the Queen, positions that are right at the heart of the British establishment. When you arrived here in was it 79?

Speaker 217:40

Bye.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin17:40

Then I have to tell people

Speaker 217:42

Yeah.

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I came in'seventy nine to study as a Church Army officer. And as an outsider, what were your first impressions of Britain?

Speaker 217:58

The church army.

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Cold.

Presenter18:06

Cold, and it wasn't just the atmosphere that was cold. People felt cold. People didn't touch. We talk and we touch. And so that sense of British restraint, the sort of slightly stiff social mores that I mean, they've probably been broken down a little in the last twenty years. Oh, yes, yes. You know, and that's one of the great things from in with regards to immigration.

Speaker 218:19

Social moral

Speaker 218:23

Oh yes, yes.

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And this people has travelled as well. They learned that it's okay to let your hair down. Immigration is right at the heart of so much that is contentious in society right now, right at the heart of our political debate, problems over social cohesion, especially in poorer areas. As we know, you work a lot of the time in Hackney in the east of London, so you live right at the heart of a lot of these problems.

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Mr President, a tangible feeling among many people there of anger about immigration and the situation it's foisted upon them as they see it. What's your reply to that? Plain ignorance, frankly. And actually a lot of this is being fuelled by the press. And I hope my parishioners in Parliament will not allow this to set the agenda. Where I live in Hackney, people live side by side happily with each other. The reality is that people of minority ethnic background are here because Britain went there.

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And we must not forget that. And people will always want a better life. And frankly, if we think about it, people from Britain went to New Zealand, they went to Australia, they went to the Caribbean, they went to the Americas. Why did they do that? They did that because they wanted a better life. So when they're saying, oh, it's you know, people are just being economic migrants, we need to create the type of policies in our world's community that enables people who are in their beautiful, warm countries in the Caribbean or in Africa, to want to stay there.

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You talk so passionately about this, and I'm wondering when you are doing your work in the Palace of Westminster, when you are talking to politicians and among them.

Presenter20:29

Do you use it as an opportunity to just make them clear of your views on the subject and your experience? I think when I'm speaking to individuals, members on these topics, yes, yes, I share my views with them. I share my experiences from where I am in Hackney. I just think we need to have a little bit of common sense about this all.

Speaker 220:35

Well I spent

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And we need to ensure that we treat people with dignity wherever they are.

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Let's have some more music, Rose. Uh tell me about your fifth. What are we gonna hear? Well, actually, my fifth is a great one for social cohesion, because I have an amazing husband who's actually a Geordie.

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The strange thing is, I cannot recall my husband actually proposing to me. I don't know how I came to be married, and I've been married now for over 30 years, I think. And I often say to him, Darling, when did you propose? I can't remember. And so, on our 25th wedding anniversary, he sang me this song, and I was just blown off my feet. So, this will not be forgotten.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin21:42

Everything

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin21:46

And the answer too.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin21:48

Oh my free

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin21:53

Down myself.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin21:55

My move.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin21:58

My god, it's so

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin22:02

My camera on the floor

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin22:05

That's what you are.

Presenter22:09

That was Barry White, and You're My Everything, and Memories for You, Rose Hudson Wilkins. Of your husband singing that to you in front of you. You were telling me during that there was an audience of 100 at this party for your 25th wedding anniversary. Absolutely. He was terrific. I loved him even more. We should tell people he's a chaplain at Holloway Prison, so he's a busy man. You met him through the church, obviously, quite an effective dating agency. What was it about him that made you think he's the man for me? Well, I think I'm sure it must have been his accent. I love accents. And he played the flute, he was very musical, and he was gentle and kind and wonderful. So you had two daughters together, and you adopted a son. In 1994, you were one of the first women to be ordained into the priesthood. You had a lot on your plate. It must have seemed like a very full life. How did you cope with all of that?

Speaker 222:18

Yeah.

Speaker 222:20

Absolutely.

Presenter22:59

Well, I I remember when I first applied to go down the road of ordination.

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Basically, being told that I ought to be at home looking after my husband and child. And I've always felt, you know, when I was told that, look, you know, my husband is perfectly capable of looking after himself. And if I didn't know how I was going to manage, I certainly would not have put myself forward. So, no, it was a challenging time, but like any other working parent, you make it work. Yes, but lots of us, when we go home, get to turn off the work. What about living in a vicarage? I don't know if you've ever watched the brilliantly written and performed show Rev, but the sense that I got when I watch it is it's utterly inconvenient to family life to live in a vicarage. The phone can ring and everything's got to be dropped. Tell me about those times. Has the door ever been knocked? I presume it must have been in the middle of the night. Oh, absolutely. The door is knocked in the middle of the night, and I get up to go answer it, and my husband says, No, no, darling, let me go, because he wants to be this sort of protective husband. And I say, Darling, it's my vicarage. They're expecting me.

Presenter24:04

You know, yes, I go out in the middle of the night. If I hear a noise or fuss going on outside, something is kicking off. You know, I go out there. Do you have fear for your safety sometimes? I've never really had fear for my safety. I have been in some dice situations. What sort of description? Well, there was one situation where I was driving up the road, still in my parish, and came across two young men, you know, late teens, maybe early twenties. One had a hammer and they were really going at each other. And immediately, all I could think of is, someone's gonna die.

Speaker 224:21

Well there was

Presenter24:37

And someone's gonna end up incarcerated. And I jumped out of my car, engine still running, door wide open, and I'm right in there separating these two guys. And they did separate, you know. But then afterwards, I got into my car and I was shaking like a leaf, thinking, Rose, what on earth did you just do? So did you tell Ken what you'd done? Your husband? I do tell him. And he always sort of looks at me and shakes his head as if to say, Darling, darling.

Presenter25:03

But um

Presenter25:05

I think it is just a part of life. It is about loving the people whom you are called to serve and to be amongst. And K Syrah, Syrah. We're not going to hear that next, but we are going to hear something else. And tell me about this next piece of music. We're on your sixth piece of the morning. This piece of music is beautiful. It is sung by a choir

Speaker 225:14

We're not gonna hear that next, but we are gonna

Presenter25:24

that has a special place in my heart, and it just captures for me the peace and the calm and the sense of healing and wholeness that I would like to think that I tried to.

Presenter25:40

Encourage in my community.

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There is a bomb in Gilead.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin25:45

Sometimes I feel it's complicated.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin25:53

Let's see.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin25:55

What

Presenter25:55

What

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin26:02

Holy Spirit.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin26:07

Revives my soul again.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin26:17

Praise the Lord.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin26:36

Be there to heal the sins there is a world.

Presenter26:45

There is a Balm in Gilead sung by the Adventist Vocal Ensemble, arranged and conducted by Ken Burton. In November twenty thirteen, the Church of England's ruling body voted in favour of ordaining women bishops, clearing the way for a final vote. That's going to happen this coming February. What do you say to opponents of this? People who say they are they're really unhappy. Jesus chose men as his apostles. Paul said leadership was only for men, and so on and so on and so on. How do you reply to that?

Presenter27:18

I believe that we hold certain prejudices about certain things and we believe them to be true. And for me, on this particular topic, it is not dissimilar. Jesus also chose twelve Jewish men. So those of us who are not Jewish and who are male priests, why are they in that role? If you're going to be as pedantic as that. So I take it with a pinch of salt.

Presenter27:50

Many people have said to me after a service, I did not believe in the ordination of women. You've changed my mind. What I want is for people to be open to the possibility that their minds might be changed. But don't you sometimes go home and just kick the wall at it all and think, what is the problem here?

Presenter28:09

You see, that's the institution. Yes. But you're working within the institution. I am working within the institution because I believe that God has called me to work within this institution, and I love this institution.

Speaker 228:11

But you're working

Presenter28:20

Is it frustrating sometimes? Absolutely yes. But am I going to lose my faith about it? Absolutely no. Because I believe that this is God's Church. It is not my Church. Do you want to be a Bishop?

Presenter28:31

I have no ambition to be a bishop whatsoever.

Presenter28:35

Truly? Truly. I've never really sat down and given any thought to it. Do you think we'll see women bishops by the end of twenty fourteen?

Presenter28:42

I hope it may be possible. I live in hope. You know, I think the Church has been the poorer, actually, for not having the gifts of women, men and women, in its leadership. And I think it's about time we change that. Let's have your seventh piece of music.

Presenter29:00

My seventh piece of music is particularly special because it speaks to me about the crosses that we experience in life, and sometimes it's very easy for us to give up. Booker T. Washington, actually, the African American, he says the circumstances that surround a person is not important. What is important is how they respond to it. And this particular song highlights it for me. The higher you build your barriers, the taller I will become.

Speaker 229:36

The higher you build your barriers

Speaker 229:42

The taller I become

Speaker 329:42

Alright.

Speaker 229:47

The farther you take my rights away

Speaker 229:53

The faster I will run

Speaker 229:59

You can deny me You can decide To turn your face away

Speaker 230:11

No matter cause there is something in s

Presenter30:15

That was Labby Sifri, and something inside so strong. Rose, do you relate to your ministry and the work that you do with a Caribbean perspective? Does your beginning inform what you do now in life?

Presenter30:29

I am a Caribbean woman at heart.

Presenter30:32

I'm a world woman actually at heart, but my Caribbeanness, my Jamaicanness, I think

Presenter30:39

Is very much part of my foundation. And so I think in everything I do, I bring that with me. I don't take it off as a coat and leave it behind. And I would like to think that even in Parliament or in my role as one of Her Majesty's chaplain, that I also bring that with me. It's who I am. I'm about to cast you away, of course. When you're on this island, is there anything you'll be glad to get away from?

Presenter31:09

I would be glad to get away from those who tells me that I can't because of the colour of my skin or because of my gender. I would like to be well away from those. You will be.

Presenter31:23

It's your eighth disc. What are we gonna hear?

Presenter31:26

Island in the sun. I am a Jamaican woman.

Presenter31:31

Even though I am British, I am still Jamaican.

Presenter31:35

And and those roots they grow deep and strong. You know, wherever you go in the world, you mentioned Jamaica.

Presenter31:44

Someone knows we're a little country, but we are a big country. We have a saying in Jamaica, Me likabut me talawa. That's Jamaica. We are an amazing people. As morning breaks

Speaker 331:57

The heaven on high, I lift my heavy load to the sky.

Speaker 332:04

Sun comes down with a burning glow Mingles my sweat with the earth below

Speaker 332:14

O island in the sun, built to me by my father's hand.

Presenter32:24

That was Harry Belafonte and Island in the Sun. It's time to give you the books, Rose. You get the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you get to take another book along, too, to the island. What would you like to take? It will have to be Complete Works of Maya Angelou's. She is amazing. You may have that then. And a luxury.

Presenter32:42

I think the luxury I toyed with what it should be. Should it be fresh cream? Should it be lobster? But then I can go catch some lobster. And there might be a coconut tree I can get some cream from. So it will have to be earrings. Your earrings. You're wearing some splendid earrings today. They're like a bonus. They're painted collared. You're a bonation. A huge selection of earrings or one particular pair.

Speaker 232:57

Right.

Presenter33:02

Maybe a huge selection. Yes, we'll give you a jewelry box full of earrings. And if you had to save just one single disc from this list, which one would it be? I think it would have to be

Speaker 233:03

Yeah.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin33:03

Sure.

Presenter33:14

The bomb in Gilead. Right. There is a bomb in Gilead. That is yours then. The Reverend Rose Hudson Wilkin, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Pleasure.

Presenter34:05

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.

Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin34:24

Uh