Ray Mears

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:35

My castaway this week is the Woodsman Ray Mears, a traveller to the world's remotest corners and a renowned expert in bush craft, wild cooking, and survival techniques.

Presenter0:45

He's one of my very few guests, I imagine, who would genuinely relish the challenges of a desert island.

Presenter0:51

Those of us not possessed of his spirit and skill can live vicariously through his exploits on T V and through his survival handbooks.

Presenter0:58

Enlightening and entertaining the sofa bound masses is, however, only one strand on his hand whittled bow. Among many other things, he's trained elite troops in the British Army, and in twenty ten he was called upon by police to help them track the fugitive killer, Raoul Mose.

Presenter1:13

It was survival skills of a different type he needed. When he lost his first wife, Rachel, to cancer, he met his second wife, Ruth, at a book signing, and the attraction was apparently instant. They share not just a love of each other, but also, luckily, of the great outdoors.

Presenter1:27

He says of the wild, I can see nature, I feel it intuitively, and I can understand what can't be written. Let's try to talk, then, for just a moment, Ray Mears, about what can't be written. Um when you are out there immersed in nature, what is it you feel?

Ray Mears1:44

It's hard to explain you feel totally alive.

Ray Mears1:47

If you take the time to understand how things fit together, the the uses and the meanings of the things around you, it's like you plug into nature in a very deep and profound way.

Presenter1:57

And how do you think that affects you as a person?

Ray Mears2:00

I think it's very good for you. I think we have a lot of latent abilities that our evolution has provided us. Hand eye coordination, sensory awareness, perception. There are so many qualities that we have. They're part of our makeup, and we there's a frustration that comes from not being able to use them. And in teaching others about the outdoors, all I have to do is unlock the gateway to those latent abilities and they come flooding forwards and the joy of using them is then revealed.

Presenter2:32

I wasn't sure how to introduce you. In the end I plumped for the word woodsman because it is the word you yourself use. Why is it that you choose that word?

Ray Mears2:39

Oh, because I like forests. I love trees. I can't be very far from trees. And forests are very they're quite difficult places. I mean y that may seem surprising. Yes, you've got lots of resources that you can tap into. But they're very secretive places. As habitats, they are full of nooks and crannies. And it takes a long while to develop the skills to actually find what's living there.

Presenter2:50

Mm.

Presenter3:02

You are an incredibly practical person, of course you are, and yet it strikes me in everything that I see and read that there's definitely a spiritual element there. I mean, one of the things that always strikes me about a forest is the light in a forest. Something happens in a forest that that makes it different from other places.

Ray Mears3:18

It's true. I mean, it changes second by second. I mean, I think if you go into a church, you see architecture that mimics a forest, it's a poor second. But also, you've got the sounds of a forest and how the leaves of the trees can tell you the changing season because the leaves dry, they make a different sound. I mean, one of the most amazing things that we ever tried to do televisually was in the forests of the very far north of Australia. We went up to a high point way before first light to try and record the sound of the dawn coming because the dawn is heralded by birdsong.

Ray Mears3:53

You can hear that the sun is coming before you can see it. And in a place there, the landscape of that scale, you can hear that wave of bird voices coming before the light reaches you. It's a very special thing.

Presenter4:05

Tell me now then, Raymiers, about your first piece of music. What are we going to hear and why have you chosen it?

Ray Mears4:09

I need some music that I could work to while I'm building my island and I envisage putting up a flagpole. I want to put up a British flag on this island. So I wanted a very British anthem that reminded me of my youth, that also might act as a kind of a repellent for any of those nasty cruise ships that might try and turn up and bring tourists with them. And so this is Jumpin' Jack Flash from the Rolling Stones.

Speaker 44:42

I was born with a drive by me.

Speaker 44:49

Uh

Speaker 44:52

The time is the

Speaker 44:56

But it's all

Speaker 45:01

French is a guest for the song

Speaker 45:07

Tony Tad Pench with the nest last game Uh

Presenter5:10

The Rolling Stones and Jumpin' Jack Flash. I mentioned Ray Mears in the introduction then that you're one of very few castaways who actually could stay alive on a desert island. And if I was marooned, I shouldn't have more than four coconuts a day, is that right?

Ray Mears5:23

Coconut is the tree of life. If you have too many green coconuts, they make go to the toilet. But it's got so many uses. You know, the husk you can make into fiber, make rope from that. You can make hats and baskets and bedding. It's a really important thing.

Presenter5:37

Along with cocoanuts what I would also need on this desert island is a knife, and with that quickly you would make what?

Ray Mears5:44

It's always good to have a fire, because if you're going to make fire by friction you need to do it while you've still got energy. I mean if you haven't got a knife, I mean you can make a knife out of a seashell.

Presenter5:52

I like the way you're thinking. But what you also really need you're displaying to me here is very precise knowledge of your environment. You have to know what you're doing. I mentioned in the introduction that you helped the police track down Raul Mote. He was the man who, on his release from prison, went to his ex-girlfriend's house, he shot her, he killed her boyfriend, he then went on to shoot a policeman before going on the run. What was it that you were using that other people and indeed the the police officers themselves might have missed? What did you bring to them?

Ray Mears5:58

You have to know what you're doing.

Ray Mears6:26

40 years of tracking animals and tracking I track people as well, I track anything that moves. I'm looking for tiny disturbances. The things that are very, very small disturbances in nature are significant to me. I'm not following footprints, anyone can do that. So bruises to leaves, tiny dead twigs that may be broken and with experience you can look and know how long they've been broken.

Presenter6:49

It seems incredibly low-tech, that sort of skill.

Ray Mears6:52

It's wonderful, isn't it? I like low-tech. GPS is great, but I still like the compass.

Presenter6:53

I like Lotus.

Ray Mears6:57

The great thing about low-tech is it's completely reliable. There's not much to go wrong with it.

Presenter7:03

So when you go out yourself into the wilds, what are you taking now that you wouldn't have taken fifty years ago?

Ray Mears7:08

If I'm guiding a party of people and I didn't have with me a satellite phone and a GPS, then there was a problem, somebody might point the finger and say, well, you should have had it with you. Personally, I don't feel a need to take any of those things at all. But don't get me wrong, I've been doing this all my life, so I know how to take care of myself. If a young, less experienced adventurer is going off into wild places, there are devices they can take with them that will signal their location. Fantastic. But given the choice, you wouldn't.

Speaker 37:18

No hits.

Presenter7:34

But given that

Ray Mears7:37

Sometimes my wife will say, Well, I want you to take a cellphone so that I know that I can contact you, which is that's cool, but I don't feel the need in myself to take those things. In fact, I like to not have them.

Presenter7:47

Because it gives you a sense of what a freedom of

Ray Mears7:49

It's wonderful. Oh, come on, to deassimilate from the cyber hive. It's wonderful. It's great to just, you know, switch off from all of that.

Presenter7:56

Deassimilate from the cyber hive. That is my phrase of the week. For now that we're going to have some more music. Tell me about our second disc of the morning. What are we going to hear?

Ray Mears8:03

I was thinking about surviving on a desert island and there's one factor that very often is forgotten by all the experts and that is what brings people back. And there were two people that come to mind. One was a man called Scott O'Grady who survived 196 days in the Australian Outback after his plane crashed. He survived because he wanted a girlfriend. He'd never had a girlfriend and he wanted a car. And then there was another man who'd survived captivity and escaping from the Burma Royal Road. And what kept him going was the desire to see his wife and his daughter again. And I think that's a really important thing, the sense of wanting to get back to see a loved one, even a future loved one. So I've chosen this song, which is By the Jam. I think it really says that. Of course, it's English Rose.

Speaker 48:50

No matter where I run

Speaker 48:54

I will return to my English roles for no bones.

Speaker 49:00

Ever tempt me from she

Speaker 49:07

I sell the seven seas

Speaker 49:11

Flown the whole blue sky

Speaker 49:15

But I return with haste

Speaker 49:19

To where my love does

Presenter9:21

Because my

Presenter9:24

That was the Jam and English Rose. So, Raymier, tell me about your parents, Leslie and Dorothy. Were they well travelled?

Ray Mears9:31

They were very well travelled. In the fifties they were traveling around the world jet setting around the world. My father was a a very talented printer. He was involved in security printing. That's things like banknotes. I was very lucky, I had wonderful parents. My mum's amazing. My father's no longer with with us, but he was an incredible human being.

Presenter9:40

That's things like bank notes and so on.

Presenter9:47

Doesn't think

Presenter9:48

And you were brought up then after this sort of exotic amount of travel, they came back and settled in uh Pearlie, was it? Yes. Yes, and and that's where you w were brought up. Did you have I hope you did a sort of Swallows in Amazons childhood?

Ray Mears9:54

Yeah.

Ray Mears10:01

It was that wonderful era before mobile phones, you know, you used to cycle everywhere, play in the woods. I mean, I think of it as a as a charted in sunshine, really.

Presenter10:09

Little seven, eight year old Ray Mears then, when he was out and about, and when he was given the whole day to himself, as he frequently was, what would I have found him doing?

Ray Mears10:17

All sorts of things, poking around, looking at nature.

Ray Mears10:20

One of the most exciting things for me was finding my first edible plant. I found a book in the library that had photographs and descriptions of what things you could eat. And with great trepidation, I went out in search of one of these plants. And I found this little plant that grows in the woods called wood sorrel. It has a clover-like leaf. And I tasted it. It tastes of apple peel. And of course, from that moment forward, I was hooked on wild foods. They don't all taste as good as that, but...

Presenter10:47

And your parents gave you, I understand, a map when you were a young teenager. What did you do with it?

Ray Mears10:54

I must have been probably 14 I suppose, maybe younger. And they bought me my first Ordnance Survey map. Amazing. And a compass. And I decided I was going to go and fill my water bottle from a spring. And I found the spring, I think it was 12 miles away. And off I went to find it. And that was my first lessons in navigation. And of course it's something you need to develop great expertise in if you're going to travel in wild places. The compass is the key to the wilderness. But I got that sense that day. And filling that water bottle from that spring, which was buried deep in a bank of stingy nettles, was a very profound moment in my life.

Presenter11:32

When was your very first expedition?

Ray Mears11:34

I remember one trip on the North Dales Way and I didn't have a sleeping bag and I didn't have a tent. But you know, I don't remember any hardship. You light the fire and you sit around the fire and life is one big adventure because you're feeling independent and free and that's a really important thing. And I often meet young people today who, because of health and safety regulations, are encumbered with huge rucksacks with far too much in them of tornado-proof equipment that weighs much more. I wouldn't dream of carrying some of that gear. And I remember back to when I started, I didn't have anything. Knowledge was more important than equipment. And that was a good place to start.

Ray Mears12:12

Let's have some more music, Ray.

Presenter12:13

We're on your third. Tell me about this.

Ray Mears12:15

Well, I think one of the things that's really important when you're on an island is imagination. And one of the things that concerns me about a desert island is it can be a little bit confining. So the ability to drift off in your imagination and go to new places is really important. And I think this song really sums that up. And this is one of my favourite groups, The Beatles. And it is, of course, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.

Speaker 412:41

Picture yourself in a boat on a river with tangerine trees and marmalade skies

Speaker 412:53

Somebody calls you you answer quite slowly A girl with kaleidoscope

Presenter13:16

That was the Beatles and Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. So tell me then, Raymiers, about your your education. You went to a nice little prep school and I imagine there wasn't much sort of throwing you out and giving you a bit of bushcraft there. It was sort of sitting down and learning your times tables, was it?

Ray Mears13:30

Yeah, and Latin, which I hated. But we were lucky that we one of the things that we did at the score was judo. That was a compulsory lesson. It was not sport. It was a life skill. You know, people who do judo will understand that if you lose your temper on the judo mate, someone will throw you. So it's about self-control and self-discipline as well, as the gentle way, using wisdom rather than strength.

Presenter13:52

Uh Kingsley Hopkins is somebody that you've you've talked about often. Was he was he a judo

Ray Mears13:54

Yeah.

Ray Mears13:56

He was the judo instructor at the school and he was he was a very special man. He had um fought in the Second World War in in Burma and introduced me to Bushcraft really. But it was much more than that.

Presenter13:57

The skull

Ray Mears14:09

One of the things he encouraged me to do was to question the source of knowledge. So if there's an accepted wisdom, try to get to understand where it came from. Take it apart so you can put it back together and understand how it works. Rather like taking an old fashioned engine apart. If you put it back together you know what the bits do, and you can test whether it's true or not.

Presenter14:27

And what about your interest in animals? You're interested in foxes and and what else?

Ray Mears14:32

anything. Foxes particularly I but I like to track them and follow them and get to know them and understand them. And I got I got to a point where I if it was a fox watching me I'd turn round and look it straight in the eye and it I felt that I developed a special rapport with them.

Presenter14:46

Do you take the view then that when people are in situations with animals when they come into danger, you know, when they are savaged by an animal, when an animal goes for them, that is to do with the fact that they are not tuning in to the dialogue, if you like, that can take place between them?

Ray Mears15:00

Yes, but it depends so much on the circumstances. You might come into conflict with an animal because that animal has already decided that it is going to harm you, to warn you off. You you may be too close to a food source of an animal, not even be aware of it.

Presenter15:04

Right.

Ray Mears15:17

Or it can be a situation where there is no potential harm going to occur if you pay attention to what's going on but you're so blinded by your fear that you do the wrong thing. First thing you have to have is the knowledge of how the animal you're dealing with is likely to behave. In most cases when you're close to an animal, if you've done your homework, there are signs and indications that that animal is giving you that you can read and interpret that will enable you to pass peacefully with this creature.

Presenter15:45

Um you once luckily passed peacefully with a very, very large salt water crocodile.

Ray Mears15:51

Undial.

Presenter15:51

Uh

Ray Mears15:51

But it was

Presenter15:51

Uh Uh

Ray Mears15:52

How big? Four or five meters long, something like that. It was the size of a canoe, so.

Presenter15:55

Tell me what happened.

Ray Mears15:56

I was camping in Northern Australia. We were filming, had a lot of snorers in the camp, so I'd moved my mosquito net further away. I like to be on my own in the bush, and that day I'd speared a stingray and we cooked it on the beach. And what I didn't know at that time is that crocodiles have a particular penchant for both sharks and for stingrays. That night, I'm in my mosquito net, and I'm woken up by the sound of this enormous crocodile just beside me. And I thought at the time, I knew they were dangerous. And I thought, well, I'll keep my hand on my machete, and if it does anything, I'll bash it on the nose. What I didn't realize, and I didn't realise until this year when I made a more in-depth documentary, is just how dangerous they are. And if that crocodile had made an attempt at grabbing me, it would have done so, and I wouldn't be talking to you now. They are incredibly powerful creatures.

Presenter16:45

Let's have some music, Ray. What are we going to hear? It's your fourth of the morning. Tell me about this.

Ray Mears16:49

This is uh Annie a Song by John Denver. Whenever I hear this song, it it reminds me of why I like for me, Annie is nature, and the song captures for me the the feeling I have for being in wild places.

Speaker 417:02

You fill up my senses Like a night in a forest

Speaker 417:12

Like the mountains in springtime Like a walk in the rain Like a storm in the desert Like a sleepy blue ocean

Speaker 417:32

You fill up my senses

Presenter17:37

Come fill me again.

Presenter17:40

That was John Denver's Annie's song, Raymond. It's interesting to me that you ended up following this uh varied and fascinating path in life that you have because you didn't join the Marines.

Presenter17:54

Yeah.

Presenter18:00

And here's a very peculiar thing. When you didn't get into the Marines, you decided to go and work in the city.

Ray Mears18:04

I know, I didn't know what to do. I just drifted off into the world really. And um I hated it. I mean, I worked in in those days people smoked in offices. Yes. And there were three of us that didn't smoke in an office of twenty people.

Presenter18:13

Yeah.

Presenter18:17

And so you then went to work on Operation Raleigh, and this is, for people who don't know, it gives young people this opportunity to go out and experience the world and work on lots of different projects in often far away and inhospitable places. Was there a moment where things sort of fell into place where you thought, yes, I think this is the one I wanted to do?

Ray Mears18:21

This is for people who do

Ray Mears18:36

Well, I guess, I mean, for me, that was a very special thing. When I joined Operation Rally, it was the proper expedition that kicked off Rally International as we know it today. And this remarkable group of largely ex-military adventurers who had come together to put this expedition together, working out of the old war office building. And in there, I met other young guys who had an interest in the outdoors. And we cross-trained each other in different disciplines. You know, it was a wonderful experience.

Presenter19:09

And for you it seems to me that learning, learning, always learning is the thing is that when you realize that you are interested in something,

Presenter19:18

Almost the first thing you want to do is become an expert in it, to amass knowledge, to find the person who you need to learn from. Is that fair?

Ray Mears19:26

I don't want to become an expert in it. I don't like the term expert. I like to be a student. I'm a student of life. And when I'm interested in a subject, I want to take it apart. But I want to find the very, very best person to teach me. And I will listen very carefully to what they've got to say and try to understand where they're coming from. And I have found in my life that that has borne fruit.

Presenter19:47

And when you decided that you were going to set up courses to in to pass on your knowledge and the things that you'd learned and to enable people to be out in the wild environment and make the best of it, it was because you realized that you actually had a bit more knowledge than the people who were teaching.

Ray Mears20:01

What had happened was I'd been while I'd worked at Up Rally we'd worked in some various outdoor centers and I'd come across people teaching these sorts of skills, but they didn't really have that knowledge and I was going out and collecting mushrooms to cook for breakfast and people who were supposedly teaching this stuff couldn't recognise what they were. And I thought, well, if this person is making a living doing this, maybe I could.

Presenter20:22

One of the first courses that you led, I think, was teaching twenty soldiers in Wales what to do if they were out in the environment. How did you get on? What was your biggest challenge there?

Ray Mears20:29

Yeah.

Ray Mears20:33

Ah well to stop them drifting off to the pub I put them on the far side of a of a of a river in Spate. But actually the the kind of people they were they wouldn't have done that anyway. So they were pretty good. It was very wet. Sometimes when the weather's at its worst that's when I I like it most. I think the more skilled you become in a subject the more it is the case that when it's easy it's a bit dull. Yeah on my desert island I think the storms will be the best times.

Presenter20:57

Do you feel very different from most people?

Ray Mears21:00

No, not at all.

Ray Mears21:01

Yes, of course it's it's unpleasant if there's a storm and you're having to deal with it, but then there's the satisfaction of having dealt with it, and then there's the joy of being able to drive everything when it's gone, you know, so.

Ray Mears21:12

Why sit sit around and be miserable?

Presenter21:16

Let's have some more music. Tell me about this, we're on your fifth.

Ray Mears21:18

Well, I mean, I thought if there was, you know, a partied ship, they might, by perusing my island through their binoculars, decide that there's no reason to come and stay because it would be in such good order. They'd see the flag flying there and a nicely ordered shell turn, the beginnings of a boat being constructed. So I thought, well, what better than to have some sort of party anthem to draw them to shore? And what I've gone for is this song by Blondie, which to me is one of the most amazing rock anthems. It's Maria.

Speaker 421:48

You've got to see her.

Speaker 421:54

Go in, standing out of your mind.

Speaker 422:11

I've seen this thing before In my best friend and the boy next door Full full love and full of fire

Presenter22:23

That was Maria Ann Blondie. Um I hope you don't think this is an unfair question, Raymears, but I'm wondering if your obsessiveness makes you quite a hard person to live with.

Ray Mears22:32

Obsessive. I don't know. You'd have to have to ask my wife. I should probably agree with you. I don't think I'm obsessive, though.

Ray Mears22:40

Are they actually quite relaxed, really?

Presenter22:41

Really?

Ray Mears22:42

There.

Presenter22:43

Because I mean, most people, if they don't understand something, they'll go some way to trying to understand it, but there's a point at which they leave it behind. It seems to me that until you really drill down and get to the bottom of something, you will not leave it behind if you're interested in it.

Ray Mears22:56

Yeah, but that's fun. I mean, that's I I think obsessive is suggests something that's negative in some way. I know I don't feel that sort of I mean I I become absorbed in a subject, but that's that's the fun of it, it's the joy of it.

Presenter23:03

Right.

Presenter23:09

As I mentioned, you have been married twice. Your first wife, Rachel, died of cancer.

Presenter23:15

I'm wondering, given that you are somebody who is is used to coping and used to being entirely capable, how did that affect you at the time?

Ray Mears23:26

It was it's I mean I'm sure anyone who's who's been through it and who's going through it knows it's an incredibly difficult thing to deal with. For me, it's something I couldn't fix and I found that very difficult. It's just one of those things. It's one you know, it's one of those things that we have to deal with and you hope you never experience it.

Presenter23:37

Yeah.

Presenter23:46

In terms of moving forward, you say that you decided that that was then and you had to make a now. That was your plan, was it? That was your sort of yours.

Ray Mears23:56

Was it that was your sort of yours? And you have to make a fresh start. I think that's really important. But otherwise you just drift on. And I and I don't think that's right. I don't think that's appropriate for me, I don't think that was appropriate.

Presenter24:14

What helped you get through it?

Ray Mears24:16

Um I went to the gym every night. The evenings are the worst time and you that's when you feel alone, I guess. And um doing something positive, something physical, was really helpful.

Presenter24:26

Tell me about missing Ruth.

Ray Mears24:28

Well, I was very lucky. I I was delivering a lecture in Newcastle and this apparition appeared from the crowds, ran up to talk to me at the end of the the show and literally knocked me off my feet. Just the force of energy that she brought with her was was you know, it was quite something.

Presenter24:42

What, you fell over?

Ray Mears24:42

What, you fell over? I literally fell over. Did you? Head over heels.

Presenter24:44

Yeah.

Ray Mears24:47

Yeah.

Presenter24:48

And it was that really. It was a thunderbolt. It was a thunderbolt, yeah.

Ray Mears24:50

There's a thunderbolt, yeah.

Presenter24:51

And lucky for you, she was described by her friends as a bit outdoorsy.

Ray Mears24:56

Uh

Presenter24:57

Yeah.

Ray Mears24:57

She is. She's she's very adventurous. She's got a lot of spirit.

Presenter25:00

Let's go to the music. We've we've got your uh sixth piece of music this morning. Ray, tell me about the

Ray Mears25:04

Well, this reminds me of seeing Ruth and it's a fantastic piece of music, it's very important to both of us. It's Suddenly I See by Katie Tunston.

Speaker 425:14

Her face is a map of the world, is a map of the world.

Speaker 425:19

You can see she's a beautiful girl, she's a beautiful girl

Speaker 425:24

And everything around her is a silver pool of light.

Speaker 425:29

People who surround and feel the benefit of it, it makes you count.

Speaker 425:36

Should you captivate it in a pile?

Speaker 425:40

Suddenly I see This is what I wanna be Suddenly I see I see Why the hell I mean so much

Presenter25:51

That was Katie Tunstall and Suddenly I See. Tell me, Raymures, do you happily fly in helicopters these days?

Ray Mears25:56

Yeah.

Presenter25:57

I ask you because, well, you'll know why I ask you. In Wyoming, in I think it was 2005.

Ray Mears26:00

What

Presenter26:02

It was a a pretty horrific looking accident you had in a helicopter. What do you remember of it?

Ray Mears26:08

looking out the window thinking we're very low. Looking out again thinking we're going to hit the ground. And as I thought that the alarms went off inside the helicopter and I took a brace position and we impacted on my side. One of the witnesses of the crash then tells me that basically we bounced up, lost power, that I remember. I remember that helicopter seemed like it was clawing the air. It came down on the tail rotor. The tail rotor snapped off, flew over the top, then the helicopter upended. We somersaulted, impacting three times before it skidded to a halt. And I remember the sound of the aluminium.

Presenter26:28

Yeah.

Ray Mears26:48

grinding as we as we did so. And then the fuel which had come out of the back of the helicopter landed as a cloud on top of us.

Presenter26:56

Remarkably, there were no fatalities, but there were some very serious injuries.

Ray Mears27:00

What were you doing? It was providing first aid. It was the the cameraman beside me he broke his back and both of his legs in the crash, and the pilot also fractured his spine. So yes, it was pretty serious.

Presenter27:16

It is also the case that just a day after that crash you word reached you that your father.

Presenter27:22

I mean it is almost

Presenter27:25

It's unimaginable to me that you could take on board that amount of

Presenter27:29

trauma in one very short period. How on earth did you deal with it all?

Ray Mears27:33

Mm. I don't know. You just do. You have no choice. It was it was very, very difficult. Um it was a it was a lot all at once, yeah.

Presenter27:42

See, you're such a coper. I mean, I you know, everything I've read about you, everything I see, that here's this incredibly sort of solid man with his feet planted on the ground. Do you ever feel that that things become too much?

Ray Mears27:53

Yeah, no, they can be. Yeah, d definitely.

Ray Mears27:56

I guess things like this in some ways are easier to deal with. This is the critical thing. My job like a professional side of me is teaching people to cope. Yes. So you have to do what you teach the hardest things to deal with is overwork.

Presenter28:01

This is the crucial thing.

Presenter28:04

Yeah.

Ray Mears28:09

I mean, that's a much that because that's see that creeps up on you. You can't perceive it. And that's a much more difficult thing to deal with. Let's have some music. Raymears, it's your seventh. Tell me about this. Well, I think it's very easy to lose sight of nature when you live in an urban setting. And there's one particular song that always reminds me of that, and that's Mona Lisa's and Mad Hatters by Elton John.

Speaker 428:34

While more visors and bad haters, sons of bankers, sons of lawyers.

Speaker 428:43

Turn around and say good morning to the night

Speaker 428:50

More or less they see the sky

Speaker 428:54

But they can and that is why

Speaker 429:00

They know not if it's dark outside or

Presenter29:04

Uh

Speaker 429:04

Yeah.

Presenter29:05

Uh

Speaker 429:05

Uh

Presenter29:05

Uh

Speaker 429:05

Uh

Presenter29:05

Uh

Speaker 429:06

Uh

Presenter29:07

Elton John with Munalisas and Mad Hatters. So, Ray Mears, I noticed that somebody asked you in an interview about fox hunting and you said very interestingly, I thought that while all the kerfuffle was going on about fox hunting, some songbirds are heading for the red list, and that was something that got your tail up more than anything else.

Ray Mears29:24

More than anything else. I get really annoyed with the political debates over all these things. Foxes, you know I like them, but it's not an endangered species. There are other far more important things that we should be keeping an eye on. To me, it's the measure of how good a government is, is whether they can, in one sense, solve the economic crises and problems of the world, but also have enough magnanimity about themselves to deal with the other issues. And we live at a time now where there's a huge pressure to build on the greenbelt. Now, as I understood it, that was put aside in perpetuity by our ancestors, our elders, and I think it should still be so.

Presenter30:01

Well, there are lots of people who want a nice house to live in, or just any house to live in.

Ray Mears30:04

I I don't disagree with that. But at the same time, if we don't have green spaces, what sort of people do we become living in those houses?

Presenter30:12

Now I feel we should in some way take advantage of your knowledge before I cast you away.

Presenter30:17

If any of us ever are to find ourselves, unfortunately, on a desert island and we don't want to be there, what are the first things we should do?

Ray Mears30:22

I don't want to.

Ray Mears30:25

You obviously have to make sure you can preserve life, so you have to consider what might be the threats to you. So first of all you should stop and think about your situation, look around and make a plan. So that's what we always say.

Presenter30:36

How does one find a a source of fresh water on an island?

Ray Mears30:39

Depends on the island and where you are in the world. It's so complex, Kirsty. In some places you might find on the coast water seeping from the rocks. In other places, you might have to look into hollows in volcanic rock where water can be trapped, where there's shade. You might look for casuarina trees and dig at their base because they need fresh water. But you must take care of the fundamentals. And also to consider whether anyone might come looking for you. There's a good chance that you should build some signals ready in case somebody comes.

Presenter31:08

Right, we're going to go to your eighth disc of the morning, then, your final one. Tell me about this, Ray.

Ray Mears31:12

This song means a lot to me. This is my my evening music, my night music. I'm going to wait for one of those times when the wind stops and the sea goes absolutely calm and the palm fronds stop moving. Then I'm going to turn the volume right up and play this amazing song which is called Feeling Good by Nina Simone.

Speaker 331:34

Patient Missy, you know how I feel.

Speaker 331:40

River running free, you know how I feel.

Speaker 331:46

Blossom on the tree, you know how I feel.

Speaker 331:51

It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

Speaker 331:57

For me and I'm feeling good

Presenter32:04

Mina Simone, feeling good. So, Ray, it's time for the books now. I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you're allowed to take another book along to this island. What will your book be?

Ray Mears32:14

Could I take a an empty book so that I can make notes of what I learn while I'm there?

Presenter32:20

Yes, of course you can.

Ray Mears32:22

Because I think that would be really interesting.

Presenter32:24

And a luxury too. Now, I'm hoping you're going to choose something really pointless, like a pair of sort of feathers and high heels.

Ray Mears32:29

Feminists.

Presenter32:30

You know, people in the past have been allowed to take knives, it's a moot point.

Ray Mears32:35

Do you know, I think I can manage without. So uh what about a really big pair of speakers so I could pump up the volume?

Presenter32:43

You can certainly do that. Yes, a really big pair of speakers is yours then.

Ray Mears32:47

is yours then.

Presenter32:48

And if you had to save just one of these eight tracks, which one would you save?

Ray Mears32:53

I think it would be, um

Ray Mears32:56

Maria by Blondie

Presenter32:58

It's yours, Ray Mears. Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Ray Mears33:01

Thank you.

Presenter33:42

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.