Barbara Hulanicki

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

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For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

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My castaway this week is the designer Barbara Hulinicki.

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Today her creativity spans fashion, illustration, interior design, and architecture. But it was the success of the label Biba that first made her name, launching a high street revolution with its opulent looking but entirely affordable high fashion. According to Twiggy, she changed fashion in England single handedly.

Presenter0:56

A newspaper advert for a three quid pink gingham dress in nineteen sixty three kicked things off. By the seventies her big Biba London department store was a throbbing temple to all things skinny fitted in plum, mulberry, green, brown, and black romantic, mysterious, nostalgic

Presenter1:13

and very profitable.

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But when it all turned sour with her business partners, she and her husband Fitz walked away.

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leaving behind the hugely popular creation that had made her name.

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The fantasy world of Bibo was a far cry from the harsh reality of her childhood. Born in Poland, just before the Second World War, the air of privilege that surrounded her family was traumatically punctured when her father, a diplomat, was assassinated.

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She says Now, whenever I finish something, I take some photographs and say goodbye. When you lose everything you realize that the only thing you have

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is what's in your head.

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So, Barbara Hollinicki, for a designer, um style must be of prime importance to you. You are cutting a very stylish figure this morning. Can you take listeners through what it is you're wearing today?

Barbara Hulanicki2:02

Well, I'm wearing black because it's nothing to do with style, it's to do with laziness. It's much easier than trying to match matchy matchy or beiges or browns. Black is very easy.

Presenter2:15

And you've got black rings on, you've got black nail polish, tinted dark glasses, skinny black trousers, and very comfortable shoes. You're still designing for the High Street these days. You you did a a popular collection for Top Shop back in two thousand nine, and now it's uh Georgia Razda you designed for.

Barbara Hulanicki2:16

Bless me.

Barbara Hulanicki2:23

Uh

Presenter2:31

What do you make of High Street fashion to day?

Barbara Hulanicki2:33

Well, it moves very fast. I mean, this is what we were doing in Beaver, very fast, all the time. You have to keep them coming back. And you've got to be switched in to what women really want.

Presenter2:47

You live in Miami today and you said, Oh, I like it'cause it's nice and cold here. Apart from the weather in Miami, wh why have you chosen to base your life there now?

Barbara Hulanicki2:55

After Bebo closed, we were open to anything and Ronnie Wood from Rolling Stone said, Oh, I'm opening a club in Miami Beach. Would you like to come for six months and design the beach club? I thought, Well, why not? Then six months turned into two years and we loved it there because it was very funky and very sixties. It was very sort of scarface and full of really interesting characters. And we just stayed on and on.

Presenter3:24

Right, Barbara, it's time for your first piece of music then. Tell me what you've chosen. Baby Love.

Barbara Hulanicki3:28

Diana Ross. Why have you chosen this? Fitz my husband in our first shop said to the girls, you know, the staff. Now we've got to start with something soft in the morning to get everybody awake. And this was a nice soft beginning to a day.

Speaker 43:45

Uh

Speaker 43:48

My baby love, I need you, oh no, I need you.

Speaker 43:54

But all you do is treat me bad

Speaker 43:58

Break my heart and leave me stead

Speaker 44:01

Don't know what did I do wrong To make you stay away so long Cause baby love, my baby love Been missing your home is kissing

Presenter4:14

Diana Ross and the Supremes and Baby Loves. So, Barbara Holinicki, you're not associated with the Biba label that people can buy to day, but for those of us unfortunately who weren't around at the time when you originated the label and the designs, how would you describe that iconic Biba look?

Barbara Hulanicki4:30

Very romantic, very skinny in those days. Everybody was skinny in those days. Pigeon toed and head on the side. And the the clothes were really nicely cut.

Presenter4:41

And there was a sort of rather sort of romantic retro.

Barbara Hulanicki4:41

And there was a

Barbara Hulanicki4:44

Very rich. Oh

Presenter4:45

Yeah.

Barbara Hulanicki4:45

Yeah.

Presenter4:46

Uh

Barbara Hulanicki4:46

Uh

Presenter4:46

And what about the eye makeup? Very heavily cold and lined.

Barbara Hulanicki4:49

Yes, and lots of eyelashes.

Barbara Hulanicki4:52

I thought I'd die wi to be seen without my eyelashes. And we used to do our own make up. There were no stylists, artists. You know, that came much later.

Presenter5:02

Biba climaxed in nineteen seventy three then with this great big department store in in Kensington, in London, and it it sold everything from the famous uh sepia toned lipsticks and and the wonderful eye shadows to Now, Black Nappies. Biba sold black nappies.

Barbara Hulanicki5:16

Yeah. When Vital my son was born, I thought I didn't want him in white nap because we we didn't have throwaway things in those days. You had to have

Barbara Hulanicki5:26

washable black nappies and and I wanted him to look

Presenter5:28

Right.

Barbara Hulanicki5:32

So you

Presenter5:32

You put your own son in the black nappings, did you?

Barbara Hulanicki5:34

Yeah.

Presenter5:36

And and cans of things like chickpeas, everything was brand new.

Barbara Hulanicki5:38

Everything was branded. I just find that I get bored with doing one thing. I mean, Fitz said, We've got to do baked beans.

Barbara Hulanicki5:49

So we did baked beans because he loved baked beans and then

Barbara Hulanicki5:53

all the sort of things that you couldn't get, like what was called continental food, which which was very rare in England. You just thought of things that you might like that wasn't around.

Presenter6:04

So this magnificent store, then, it it was topped off by a roof garden that had flamingoes and penguins, and there was a beautiful restaurant and bar, the rainbow room where the latest bands would come and play.

Presenter6:16

And there you were also selling baked beans and washing up liquid and butter. And that is quite a mixed message, isn't it? That's lo that's glamour and then real life in the same place.

Barbara Hulanicki6:23

That's

Barbara Hulanicki6:25

I mean, I don't see why butter can't be glamorous. You know, I don't see why you can't buy it in a glamorous setting. I was completely into films. That was my only sort of inspiration. And I was floating around in a technicolor film all the time.

Presenter6:43

Your clients at the time included people like the Rolling Stones and Marianne Faithful would come in, David Bowie, Bridget Bardow. Did you have a sort of PR department working for you to bring those people in the door?

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I had a little look on eBay to see what a vintage Biba item would cost me. That there's a dress right now that's going for four hundred and forty pounds. There's a shirt over two hundred pounds.

Barbara Hulanicki7:11

Do you still wear any of your designers from trying to get into one?

Presenter7:14

Um

Barbara Hulanicki7:18

Actually we tried doing a size twelve once and it didn't sell at all. I had to put it in this little area where the where the shoplifter's corner said, Go on, get on with it because nobody wanted to wear twelve.

Presenter7:31

Let's go to your second piece of music, Barbara Hollinike. Tell me about this.

Barbara Hulanicki7:35

The beginner begin. This just is a part of my childhood with my father, who absolutely loved music. We used to help him wind up the gramophone and put the needle in. It was a very lovely time. It was wonderful.

Presenter8:23

Artie Shaw and his orchestra with Begin the Begin. So, Barbara Hulunicki, you were born in Warsaw in 1936. You were the eldest of three girls, and your father was a Polish diplomat. The family moved when you were really very young to what was then called Palestine. I think you were three when they moved. Can you remember the early years at home?

Barbara Hulanicki8:43

Just this wonderful glow of love those two people had. Your parents. Yes. He adored her and she adored him and you you were almost felt that you were intruding on this wonderful

Barbara Hulanicki8:56

Mystic thing, almost to the point of boredom. Do you know what I mean? Uh why don't they have a row or something?

Presenter9:04

Your mother, Victoria, was twenty years younger than your father. When you say, you know, you almost felt as if you were intruding, that's quite a curious situation for children to be in, to feel that, you know, they almost have to stand back from what's going on. Can you describe that feeling a little bit more?

Barbara Hulanicki9:18

On right.

Barbara Hulanicki9:20

Yeah.

Barbara Hulanicki9:21

I think you feel that you can't break into this wonderful thing, and you're the product of this thing, too. For me, it was my father. Everything he did was wonderful. He taught us so much. For me, it was just like a major love affair. I always remember these evenings at night. He would listen to BBC on the radio, and the the room was always dark, and there was just that flickering light, and he would be listening to concerts. Then he used to tell us the most wonderful stories about England, how wonderful green it was, because we were living in this rather pink desert.

Presenter10:00

And your father painted as well.

Barbara Hulanicki10:01

Well, can you see how much those things influenced your style? Absolutely tremendous, because he was very much into Art Nouveau.

Presenter10:04

Two stars.

Barbara Hulanicki10:08

And he did a couple of illustrated books and

Barbara Hulanicki10:11

He was playing the piano. I mean, he's never stopped. Sewing and embroidery as well. You used to did you do that at home, or was that just your mother? No, that was my m my mother. She was brought up in a convent and um

Barbara Hulanicki10:24

The nuns were very big sewers in those days in Poland, and she was amazing at sewing.

Barbara Hulanicki10:31

Poor thing. When we were little uh she would be making us clothes and things I didn't approve of. I had to have the right colour red. She always wanted to dress us, all three of us, in matchy matchy, and I hated that.

Presenter10:47

Tell me about your mother's sister, your aunt Sophy. She she played a big part in your life, and and indeed in the Biba story.

Barbara Hulanicki10:53

My Aunt Sophie.

Barbara Hulanicki10:55

was an amazing woman, now I think of it. Wonderful creature, with glassy blue eyes, and sapphires to match, and this marvellous scent of leble. And she had brought up my mother because she was much older.

Barbara Hulanicki11:12

And when my father died my mother was absolutely distraught.

Barbara Hulanicki11:17

And uh didn't know where she was going to end up, my aunt Sophie.

Barbara Hulanicki11:22

sort of saved her and she looked after us and she sort of ran the family.

Presenter11:29

More of that in just a moment. For now, though, Barbara, let's find out about your third piece of music. Tell me about this and and why you've chosen disc number three this morning.

Barbara Hulanicki11:36

My father's sister was a concert pianist in Warsaw. And one of the nights that my father was waiting for this BBC programme to come through, must have been at the beginning of the war, and his sister was playing and he was so incredibly upset, I'll never forget, and one of the things she was playing was the politics.

Presenter12:56

That was Elizabeth Lyonskaya playing Chopin's Polonaise. So, Barbara Hollinicki, you've described then your own childhood as very happy, and indeed so calm that you almost wished something would happen in it. You were twelve when something happened that was to change your family forever. Your father

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Was assassinated. He was murdered by a Zionist extremist organization called the Stern Gang.

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The reason that he was involved in the politics of Palestine as it it then was was due to the fact that following the UN's decision in November of nineteen forty seven to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, your father had been acting as a mediator between the two sides. Can you remember, I wonder,

Presenter13:39

The last time that you saw him alive.

Barbara Hulanicki13:41

Oh God, yes, never forget. There was a knock on the door, a bang on the door, and my father got up and went to the front door,'cause it was an apartment in Jerusalem.

Barbara Hulanicki13:56

And he opened the door and there was a lot of talking and

Barbara Hulanicki14:00

I remember him going through to his bedroom and he telling my mother and my mother was in a terrible state, and he got dressed very quickly.

Barbara Hulanicki14:11

And I was sleeping with Beatrice, and he came past and he said, Bye-bye. Goodbye.

Barbara Hulanicki14:19

And

Barbara Hulanicki14:22

And I sort of never said goodbye to him.

Presenter14:24

Uh

Presenter14:26

And do you think is it your belief that amid all the political unrest in in Palestine at that moment, it it's your belief that he knew that he was saying goodbye to you for the last time?

Barbara Hulanicki14:36

No, I don't think he did.

Presenter14:37

You did.

Barbara Hulanicki14:38

Not at all.

Presenter14:38

Not at

Barbara Hulanicki14:40

Because I think he thought it was the Haganah coming in, because they used to take people and question them and then bring them back.

Barbara Hulanicki14:48

And um

Barbara Hulanicki14:51

I know he was trying to

Barbara Hulanicki14:53

Get out of the house quickly to make sure that we were safe.

Barbara Hulanicki14:57

And

Barbara Hulanicki14:58

We sort of listened and waited for him to come back, waiting for that key in the door.

Barbara Hulanicki15:05

for three days and three nights. And then people came and told my mother, never forget

Barbara Hulanicki15:11

Coming into the room where where there were all these people, and my mother was just white, and she had she told me.

Barbara Hulanicki15:19

Awful.

Presenter15:19

Your father, as a high ranking consular official, was was caught up somehow in all of this chaos and political unrest, and your family clearly were were the victims of a a situation that they had very little to do with, and it was thought best that your mother and the three children should flee.

Speaker 115:32

But

Presenter15:37

As quickly as possible. So you got on the flight to the UK. Can I ask you what you remember of the the journey itself?

Speaker 115:37

Yeah.

Barbara Hulanicki15:37

Yeah.

Speaker 115:38

Uh

Barbara Hulanicki15:38

Yeah.

Presenter15:44

Yeah.

Barbara Hulanicki15:44

My mother was absolutely distraught and I felt like the old person in the family and throughout the journey she was praying and she was saying things like, I hope this plane crashes. I was absolutely terrified and like I just didn't want

Barbara Hulanicki16:03

I didn't want that to happen. I just wanted to live. Of course.

Presenter16:06

Looking at that now, that was your mother simply in the depths of her own grief. Absolutely.

Presenter16:12

How much was she ever able to recover from that, do you think?

Barbara Hulanicki16:15

She recovered, but my aunt was the sort of paternal figure. She looked after us, and my mother sort of was almost a child. She was lovely. She was just a marvellous mother.

Presenter16:29

Let's have some music, then, Barbara. We're on your fourth disc. Tell me about this.

Barbara Hulanicki16:34

Such a Night, Johnny Rae. I was at art school then. I thought that was so funny because it was banned and the only place you could listen to this was in a wicked, wicked coffee bar where you drank very wicked cappuccinos. Can you imagine this? And that was the only place that they would play this amazing music. Was a night.

Barbara Hulanicki16:58

Mm what

Speaker 416:59

But

Barbara Hulanicki16:59

Guide.

Speaker 416:59

It was a tree. It was such a night. The moon was bright.

Barbara Hulanicki17:02

Uh

Speaker 417:04

How bright it was, it really was such a night The night was alive with the stars above Mmm When she kissed me, I had fallen in love

Speaker 417:17

It was a kiss. Mmm, what a kiss it was, it really was. Such a kiss. How she could kiss! Ooh, what a kiss it was, it really was. Such a kiss.

Presenter17:27

That was such a nice and excitable sounding Johnny Ray there. You you seem to be enjoying every moment of that, Barbara Hulanicki. Now, in your autobiography you say that as a teenager you were in quotes the one causing trouble. I wonder what sort of trouble you were causing as a teenager.

Barbara Hulanicki17:42

Um I was always um uh my mother would just say to me, You're so independent. Can you imagine being told that?

Barbara Hulanicki17:50

It was really bad to be independent. I wanted to do everything myself and not have to follow

Barbara Hulanicki17:57

Auntie Rules, which were wonderful crepe dresses and clunky shoes and hats and

Barbara Hulanicki18:06

You know, the May Couple's always wrong.

Presenter18:08

Your auntie, who was really in charge of the family, was in charge of the family because she was funding the life, was she? Was she paying for things and smoothing the way financially?

Barbara Hulanicki18:16

Yes, financially, helping my mother and also she was a very strong woman and felt that she wanted to bring us up to know what real past looked like, what real times looked like and all the things that I found very, very I wasn't interested in. Absolutely wasn't interested in.

Presenter18:37

You studied fashion at college in Brighton and then you became a freelance illustrator and when you were twenty three you met the man with whom you would later go on to launch Beba. He was an advertising exec called Stephen Fitzsimon and you said you looked at him and you thought there's trouble, but he's the one for me. What was troublesome about Simon?

Barbara Hulanicki18:57

That's in

Barbara Hulanicki18:59

He was just

Barbara Hulanicki19:01

He was as equally as independent as I was and he was terribly attractive, very handsome. We had lots of mutual friends and then we were at a party once and we just never stopped talking. Was he very dynamic? Did you tremendous? Yes. I mean he was such a incredible person for me who I didn't dare to open my mouth or everything I did was wrong because of my aunt going on at me all the time. And he's just turned round and he said, Listen, stop being so negative. What you think is right and this is it and this is how we're going to go. And in business we were just so compatible because I did my thing and he did his thing and we

Presenter19:15

Was he very dynamic? Did you like that?

Barbara Hulanicki19:43

We trusted each other so much that it just worked. I was so lucky. Sounds like the perfect man indeed.

Presenter19:49

We're going to go to your music, then, Barbara Hulinicki. Tell me about this. It's your fifth choice of the morning.

Barbara Hulanicki19:54

La Vian Rose, Marlena Dietrich. We we felt that Marlena Dietrich would have been the perfect person to launch the Rainbow Room in the new Beaver store. And it was very important to have the right performer on the stage because we had a stage and we built this wonderful dressing room. And we went through the project with home manager and there were all these stipulations where Joe Davis had to do the lighting, there would have to be the White Rolls-Royce and there would be the suite at the Dorchester.

Barbara Hulanicki20:29

two bottles of pink champagne and we got cold feet. And unfortunately the following performance she was at, she fell off the stage and we thought, Oh my god

Speaker 120:40

Might have happened in the birth.

Speaker 120:42

Yeah.

Speaker 420:42

Yeah.

Speaker 120:42

Uh

Speaker 420:42

Pant ille me pont en cebour, Il ma par la toubas, Je voie la vien roisen.

Speaker 420:55

I died mour d'a mour, des mour de tou le jour et somme fair que l que chause.

Presenter21:08

Yeah.

Speaker 421:08

Yeah

Presenter21:11

Marlene Dietrich and La Vienne Rose. So, Barbara Hohlinicki, with your husband Fitz, you set up this mail order fashion business, and then you were spotted by a woman who would be very important in your life. It was Felicity Green, who was the fashion editor at the Daily Mirror at the time. She commissioned you to produce this now infamous pink gingham outfit. It was a little sleeveless sort of shift dress, I suppose, and it had a keyhole in the back, so there was a little bit of flesh on show, just enough, I suppose, and a matching sort of Bridget Bardot head scarf.

Presenter21:43

And how was it received?

Barbara Hulanicki21:45

By the time Felicity called me in, we were doing a little bit of mail order and we were selling like two hundred dresses, losing money like mad, and it was a nightmare. We thought, oh, we're going to give this up. And the article comes out and there's a picture of this wonderful girl, wonderful model, Pauline Stone, wearing the dress. It is a third of a double paid spread. And so the following morning we go down to Oxford Street to collect the mail. Right. And I was sitting in the car and

Barbara Hulanicki22:18

Fitz went round the corner and I see him coming back and he's got a f grin from ear to ear and he's got two sacks full of mail and daily we used to go and collect this mail. How many dresses did you sell? Seventeen thousand.

Presenter22:31

But it

Barbara Hulanicki22:34

and we made halfpenny each.

Presenter22:38

Still quite a lot of heat news.

Barbara Hulanicki22:39

So no, um, it's still on hard work for a half penny. So that

Presenter22:45

That set you up really neutral.

Barbara Hulanicki22:47

Oh, absolutely.

Presenter22:48

So, your designs, they rapidly became very popular, and you decided that you wanted to create a shop. The first Bieber store opened in 19.

Barbara Hulanicki22:53

Yeah.

Presenter22:55

sixty four. Did you feel I mean I know obviously it took a tremendous amount of hard work and you were busy doing the designing.

Presenter23:02

Did you feel, though, that you were at the very pinnacle of swinging London? Did you think, you know.

Barbara Hulanicki23:06

Get it.

Barbara Hulanicki23:08

Absolutely not. Because we always heard the moans or the buttons dropped off this thing. The seams cracked. Particularly Fitz would get attacked by men who were very envious of him being able to walk around in a T shirt. Didn't have to wear a suit. No, we heard nothing but negative, negative, negative. And not until Biba closed did I go once to um Furucci shop in Nightspirit and this woman comes up to me in tears and she said, What am I going to do? Where am I going to buy these things for so little money? And I said, I can't believe this first time I've heard anything nice. It's extraordinary.

Presenter23:51

You must, though, have been enjoying the financial success. I mean, your make-up at one point was sold in thirty-three countries. You yes.

Barbara Hulanicki23:57

Yeah.

Barbara Hulanicki23:58

But we were always in the shop. It made no difference financially or otherwise. And we were always there until about eight, nine, ten at night.

Presenter24:09

It was uh nineteen seventy five then that you and Fitz walked away from your baby Biba. Um there were disagreements with your business partners at the time, and and that was you just drew a line under it. That was the end of your association with the name.

Presenter24:24

For you personally, that how big an effect did that have on you personally?

Barbara Hulanicki24:27

Absolutely. I mean I was absolutely

Barbara Hulanicki24:31

Sucked. Fitz was still fighting trying to get the the name back. In the end they said, Come on, Fitz, let's let's just pack it in. This this isn't you know, let them have it, I don't care. So that's when we decided to go after Brazil.

Presenter24:45

Let's have some music then. Tell me about your your sixth choice of the morning.

Barbara Hulanicki24:49

Oh, this is when life really started. The girl from Iponima Stan gets an astrot galaxy because it was so important about going to Brazil because of this wonderful freedom, the beach and which was yet another story.

Speaker 425:06

Ha, siela sobesi, que quande la pasa, Umundo so Gindo, siench ti grasa, I fi ka majlindo, purcaza dua mour

Speaker 125:21

Tall and ten and young and lovely, the girl from Ibanina goes walking and when she passes, each one she passes goes

Presenter25:34

Astrid Gilberta with Stan Goetz and girl from Ipa Nima, and that was to represent you say, Barbara Hulanicki, this ideal of travelling to Brazil and living a life that was free of Biba, free of your business partners, and was in a sense for you and your family you had a son, of course, by then a new beginning. Uh there was a point at which Fitz your husband said he wanted you to get rid of all the patterns that you brought with you. What was your response to that?

Barbara Hulanicki25:55

April

Barbara Hulanicki25:57

That was extraordinary because we we suddenly went to Brazil and there we had a new life and it it was just amazing that there was a life beyond, you know, sitting in stockrooms and worrying about production. Because I took all the patterns and first samples from Year Dart and they were sitting in boxes right up to the ceiling in the kitchen and Fitz said, Listen, you just got to get rid of this. It's holding you back. It's it's bad karma. And we had this truck and we filled it up with the boxes and the patterns and then we went into a favela in Sao Paulo.

Barbara Hulanicki26:37

And we go into this area that's very dangerous and there's a clearing. Fitz said, No, come on, we're just going to go and dump all these things. So we dump all the boxes and drive off and then I said, Oh, Fitz, can we just go back and have a look and see w if the things are all right? Well we drive round again and there were all these savella kids really poverty stricken looking at the looking at the label and go, Poof, throwing a drop.

Speaker 427:05

Uh

Presenter27:05

Throwing it off.

Barbara Hulanicki27:07

I thought, well that just made it for me.

Presenter27:10

And did you have to work in Brazil, or had you managed to take money with you?

Barbara Hulanicki27:12

Yeah.

Barbara Hulanicki27:14

Well, uh we had enough to get by. We were working in Brazil because we started uh uh export business. Uh we made two million T shirts for Fiorucci.

Presenter27:24

Right, that's a good idea.

Barbara Hulanicki27:25

And Casual

Presenter27:26

So you went then from Brazil on to uh Miami and and you've had this incredibly successful second career in interior design. You were working with people like Chris Blackwell, who created Island Records. You designed a nightclub for Ronnie Wood, which was in that part of town. Where did you find the confidence to do all of this? I mean it had been sort of beautiful silk dresses and shirts and chiffon things that you've been doing. Suddenly to be able to walk into a a a

Presenter27:51

A derelict building and imagine it as a place that people practically use.

Barbara Hulanicki27:56

Yeah.

Presenter27:56

That's a whole

Barbara Hulanicki27:57

whole different deal. It certainly was. And my gosh, do you learn very fast because you pretend you know. It was like the sixties, you know.

Barbara Hulanicki28:06

Never produced a dress before. But I worked for Ronnie first and then I met Chris. He said, Come and do a corridor for me in the Marlin. And I went, Really? Okay, I'll do a corridor. And the Marlin was amazing at that time. It was sort of early nineties. I mean, the people that Chris attracted, Mick, Bonneau, Beyonce, Madonna. I was sitting at a party once in Chris's suite. I was sitting next to this little boy and I thought, Oh, he's very quiet. And then you look and it's Prince, you know.

Presenter28:43

That very quiet little boy, Prince. It's time for some music, then, Barbara Halanicki. We're not going to hear any Prince, but tell me what we are going to hear next. We're on your seventh. Bob Marley.

Barbara Hulanicki28:43

Very quiet little boy prince, yes.

Barbara Hulanicki28:53

Whenever we did a hotel for Chris and I did Eleven and of course Bob Marley was always playing everywhere.

Speaker 429:07

One love.

Speaker 429:10

On the heart.

Speaker 429:13

Let's get together and feel alright.

Speaker 429:18

Hear the children crying Hear the children crying

Speaker 429:24

Say and give thanks and praise to the Lord, and I will be Lord.

Presenter29:31

One love from Bob Marley. Barbara, I wonder, very sadly, your your husband passed away in nineteen ninety seven, and given that you'd had such a a long and successful and incredibly creative and productive partnership.

Presenter29:46

It must have made it I mean, it's hard for anybody in a long marriage when they lose their partner, but when he's also been the person that has seen you through in your working life too, it must have made it doubly difficult.

Barbara Hulanicki29:56

It was it was horrific because it was so unexpected. I always thought I was going to die first and what was he going to do without me. And it was such a shock to both Vital and myself that and it took you know, it takes you about five years to get over it. I mean, to anybody who's had a huge loss where their life is completely it's like half of you is gone. On the fifth year, suddenly you wake up one day and say, Okay, now I'm off on my own.

Barbara Hulanicki30:29

Now I can watch the television progress I want and I can eat what I want.

Barbara Hulanicki30:34

And my son, any advice I need, I go to him.

Presenter30:39

Um when you look back at all the success you've had um throughout your career, and and you think back to the little uh twelve year old girl that that suffered such a terrible shock right in the middle of her family life, I I wonder what your father might have made of this life that you've carved out for yourself. Do you ever think about that?

Barbara Hulanicki30:56

My whole thing has always been the name, to to make him proud of the name.

Barbara Hulanicki31:02

Has it?

Presenter31:02

That that's been your sort of driving force, has it?

Barbara Hulanicki31:05

Yes, absolutely. I hope he's proud.

Presenter31:08

And what about the women in your life? What about your mother? What about your aunt Sophie? What did they make of your design career?

Barbara Hulanicki31:14

I found this letter from my aunt that she'd written to my sister, and it said Aunt Barbara in that junk shop of hers, and this was when we opened the big store.

Presenter31:25

What did your mother make of the old junk shop?

Barbara Hulanicki31:27

My mother just couldn't understand it. The shopkeeping thing. It's the sort of profession you you didn't do.

Presenter31:34

When I cast you away to this little sandy island somewhere in the middle of nowhere I mean you've you've designed a lot of beach retreats and beautiful beach hotels, but there you will be all on your own on the island. Will you feel the need to to marshal your environment, to design it, to make something of it, or will you just let it look the way it goes?

Barbara Hulanicki31:50

No. I'll be making dresses out of palm leaves. And there'd be so much to do, I can't tell you. You'd have to learn how to light a fire and then feed yourself and find the water. I think I'd be making a lovely house.

Presenter32:05

It's time for your final piece of music then. Tell me about this, disc number eight. What are we going to hear?

Barbara Hulanicki32:10

I've chosen Walk on the Wild Side. Lou Reed, who died recently. His music is so meaningful and very beautiful.

Speaker 432:21

Holler came from Miami, FLA.

Speaker 432:25

Hitchhiked away across USA.

Speaker 432:30

Plucked her eyebrows on the way Shaved her legs and then he was a she She says hey babe, take a walk on the wild side

Speaker 432:39

Said hey honey, take a walk on the wild side.

Presenter32:51

Lou Read and Walk on the Wild Side. So, Barbara, it's time for me to give you the books. I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you get to take another book along. What will you take to the island?

Barbara Hulanicki33:02

Um I think I need to take the thesaurus with me.

Presenter33:07

I shall give you the Thesaurus, and a luxury, too. I think a sketch book, maybe. The sketch book is yours, then, and a track to save. If the discs were to be washed away, which one would you want to save?

Barbara Hulanicki33:17

I think the girl from Eponema, because that was a sort of really happy time for the three of us, Vito, myself and Fitz.

Presenter33:26

Lovely. Well, that's your track then. Barbara Hulanicki, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Barbara Hulanicki33:32

Thank you. That was fun.

Presenter34:10

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4.