Carolyn McCall

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Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

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For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

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My castaway this week is the businesswoman Carolyn McCall. She's currently Chief Executive of EasyJet, one of only three women in Britain in charge of a FTSE One Hundred company. Prior to that she ran the Guardian Media Group.

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An only child, she was brought up in Bangalore and Singapore. She spent a short time as a teacher in a comprehensive school, and has also brought her wisdom to the boardroom table at Lloyds Bank, Tesco, and New Loop.

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In amongst all of this corporate strategising, she somehow also managed to have three children in three years. She says, I think it's mad not to have self-doubt, but I think it's really dangerous when that self-doubt becomes total insecurity, or lack of confidence, or lack of momentum, or lack of belief in yourself, so Caroline McCall, that self-belief.

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60 million passengers a year. You've got a company that's valued at around about four billion.

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When are the moments that you most need to rally the self-belief, do you think? Well, I think when I left the very safe and secure environment of The Guardian Media Group, you know, I knew I was taking quite a big risk. It was a calculated risk. I had to talk long and hard with my husband. But I did just constantly feel it was worth it. It's a very dynamic industry. It's a very exciting, but also very stretching business. You're dealing with people's holidays. If something goes wrong, it's something people have been looking forward to for months.

Carolyn McCall1:58

Yeah.

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We've had BA just announce this no-frills service. You know, you'll pay less if you just have hand baggage, and there's Ryanair, there's Monarch.

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There's Thomas Cookett's. It's a highly competitive industry. Are you always watching the competition? Always, always watching the competition. It doesn't matter where it comes from. You've mentioned a whole load of airlines, but high-speed rail in Europe is also interesting. For us, it's competition. We're paranoid about competition and we take it really seriously. One of only three women CEOs of a FTSE one hundred company.

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What's the problem there? Is it that women don't want it enough, or is it the way the companies run themselves that mean that women can't do the job? Women usually, not at their first child, but by their second child, they're thinking

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This is too hard. I've got to get out of this because I can't make the numbers work, and actually, I'm stressed all the time.

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What companies I think need to do, and I do it and I've done it everywhere I am, is really try and hold those really brilliant women in that middle management level. So, whether that is that they might do a job share, they might do part-time for a period of time. For me, the focus is really about bringing people onto executive committees and management boards because they're the people that will be the next generation of CEOs. Tell me about your first piece of music then. What are we going to hear? You're going to hear Dancing in Street by Bowie and Jagger. I think they did this for Live Aid. The reason for this really is I love dancing and I love music, and two of my happiest weekends in my life have been my 40th and my 50th birthday. I had my closest mates, my close family, and there was lots of dancing and lots of music, and that's what it reminds me of.

Speaker 43:45

The world, are you ready for a brand new beat?

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Summer's here and the time is right.

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Dancing in the street, dancing in Chicago.

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That was David Barry and McDagger and Dancing in the Streets. So Carolyn McCall, it was twenty ten when you were appointed CEO of EasyJet. You were moving, of course, from a media company to an aviation company.

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It would be fair to say it was greeted with a degree of shock in some circles. Indeed, Michael O'Leary, who heads up Ryanair, wrote you off, I'm quoting now directly, as some old media lovy. Under your leadership, then, the share price has nearly tripled.

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It must be very satisfying to prove the doubters wrong.

Presenter4:44

Well, you know, I didn't even think very much about the reams of newsprint that were written. I kind of put it down to the fact that I was a woman, actually, rather than anything else. You know, most CEOs of FTSE 100 companies don't get that kind of coverage when they move jobs. And I decided that what I had to do was focus on getting the job under my belt and everything that could have gone wrong in my first six months in terms of the environment, the external environment. So I had the overhang of the big volcano. Yes, this was the ash cloud that ground to halt all of those European flights. For five days, yeah. That took months and months to clear in terms of the backlog of compensation claims. And then we had some operation problems of our own in terms of getting punctuality and reliability because customers really value that for obvious reasons. And they were huge issues for your airline at the time because.

Carolyn McCall5:12

Grash to Holt

Carolyn McCall5:14

5.

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As I understand it, of your planes flying out of Gatwick, there were, was it less than 50% were making it out on time? Yes, I'm afraid that that is true. That's what I came into. And in fact, there was an article in the Sunday Times comparing us to Air Zimbabwe. It was all pretty awful. So that was a priority. It was quite good because it was very clear what I had to do. One other airline CEO actually pointed out to me that, having had the volcano, our own operational issues, the oil spiked in December that year. And oil prices is all about oil.

Carolyn McCall5:46

Yeah.

Carolyn McCall6:00

And oil price is all about oil price.

Presenter6:02

Oil is really important. The biggest bill that we have, we spent over a billion pounds on fuel, and that came December of my first year. And the other thing I had all the way through July and August was probably the worst air traffic control strike environment that we've seen for a long time. So this other CEO of a very large airline said, you know what, you will be grateful for this. I know he doesn't feel it at the time, but you've had to deal in six months with what most CEOs don't have to deal with in a decade. And he was right, actually.

Carolyn McCall6:03

The biggest

Carolyn McCall6:04

Yeah.

Presenter6:31

Can we talk for a minute about Sir Stelios, who founded EasyJet and who still is a shareholder, thirty six percent, I think, of EasyJet's shareholders? Yes, his family does. He's not running the business any more. He's certainly very vocal about the way that you run the business. How easy is that to deal with?

Carolyn McCall6:39

Did you just

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Well, I feel that, you know, we are extremely keen to engage with all our shareholders. And we want to listen. You want to be open and constructive with all your shareholders. And I think that works. The other thing is that we, as a management team, have just put our heads down and not been distracted by any noise. So whatever happens in the media on any of that, we just don't let it divert us. Carolyn McCall, very, very nicely dealt with. But it is time for your second piece of music. Tell me about this. What are we going to hear? Okay, so the second piece of music is Andy Williams, can't take my eyes off of you. And why have you chosen this? Well, it's really very much about my childhood and my parents. In the mornings, I'd wake up and there'd be classical music everywhere because my mum loved classical music. And by the late afternoon evening, there'd be Dean Marson, Frank Sinatra, Andy Williams. And my dad loved all of that music. He's a brilliant singer and a brilliant dancer. And so I had this kind of juxtaposition at home. And this just really reminds me of my parents. And also my kids love it, actually, I have to say. So we usually have a good dance to this at home.

Speaker 38:00

You're just too good to be true.

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Can't take my eyes off

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You'd be like heaven to touch

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I wanna hold you so much.

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At long last love has arrived

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And I thank God I will lie.

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You're just too good to be true.

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Yeah.

Presenter8:27

That was Andy Williams and Can't Take My Eyes Off You, and memories for you, Caroline McCall, of your father sort of crooning and dancing along to that when you were a child, your mother listening to the classical music in the morning. Let's talk for a minute a little more about your parents then. They were curious about the world, they lived abroad. Were they adventurous types?

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They were certainly adventurous in their way. My grandparents had a coffee estate in Mysore.

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My mum was born in India as a result of being an army child. My dad was born in Burma as a result of being an army child. And we were based there. My dad ended up getting a job out there as an engineer. Tell me more then about growing up in India, because inevitably you must have had a very different childhood from if you'd been growing up in Britain at the same time. My early memories are of being in quite nice houses and seeing my grandparents a lot and running around this coffee estate, 13 dogs, you know. We had lots of Indian friends as well as English friends out there. And I love Indian food, so it gave me a complete love for anything spicy. And you must have had stuff, I'm guessing. Did you have like a cook and was there a major? Did you spend time with those people? Yeah, very much. I had the equivalent of an ayah, which is like an annie, and I was very close, very close to although I was very close to my parents, but they had a lot of help, yes. They had a cook and a driver. So, you know, I suppose that was a very comfortable world. You know, I never cooked until I got to university. Never had to think about it, really. Could you literally not boil an egg then until you got to university? Yes, that's probably a completely true thing to say. Although I'm now a very good cook, if I say so myself, I really enjoy cooking.

Carolyn McCall9:33

Like a cook and was there a major

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Ah

Carolyn McCall9:45

Yeah.

Carolyn McCall9:55

Could you

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And did you, given this rather worldly, as it were, upbringing, what were the conversations round the dinner table? I mean, were your parents people who liked to talk about politics? Were there newspapers around? Always newspapers, still to this day. My parents are in their eighties. My mum sadly has dementia, but my dad is still an avid current affairs follower and reader. And yes, lots of discussion, but not in a formulaic way. It would pop up at any time of day or night, you know, just conversation about the news or war or whatever was happening in the world. So I think when you live abroad, the UK is not the centre of the world for you. So you tend to be interested in lots of different countries and what's going on in lots of different places. And I certainly had that as a child. And you were an only child?

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I was an only child, which you know, when you're an only child, you have no idea that this is an unusual thing. And I also went to boarding school. So I think my parents

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you know, loved me com completely and I felt very secure in that love always. But they didn't want me to feel like an only child, and that was the reason I went to boarding school. What age were you? About eight. Right, that's quite young. Yeah. It was a different kind of boarding school. So I would see my parents more frequently than you know the the the traditional public school here would.

Carolyn McCall11:10

But yeah, very much.

Presenter11:18

But still, you know, it was quite. I mean, I thought I was going on a picnic on a plane. It was all very exciting. And then three days later, I said to one of the girls, I said, Well, Alex, I'd like to go home now. And she said, No, it's a few more days, Carolyn, meaning a few more weeks. But I was homesick, but actually, I did like boarding school. You know, if I hadn't have liked it, they'd have moved me out. They've always been very open to listening to me. And I think that security has been really important to me. Given how busy you are and how much time your career has taken up thus far, were you determined not just to have one child yourself? Did you think I don't want to have an only child? No, I mean, I just think there's too much made about being an only child. I mean, yes, I do. I think the thing.

Carolyn McCall11:58

But yes.

Presenter12:00

It's made me very independent, but also really value my close family and my close friends. On the other hand, I have to also say completely that when I had my own children, I wanted someone really close to me I could just share that with. The other point in my life where I really would have loved a brother or a sister is as my mum has got very, very ill and it's been very difficult. And I had no one really to help me with that. That was really difficult.

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Okay, we're gonna have some music now, Karen. Tell me about your

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Third piece of music then. Why have you chosen this?

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Well, opera for me is just a very special thing. I met my husband at university and for our first wedding anniversary, he booked to go and see Turindo. And I just loved, I loved the music, I loved the set, I loved everything about it. And ever since then, we've been fortunate enough to be able to do some brilliant things in opera. So we've been to Verona a few times. And really, I should have chosen a Plasto Domingo track because he probably is my favourite opera singer. And over the years, you know, I've seen him two or three times with Peter. But La Bohem, I've obviously seen him a couple of times. And I just love the Maria Canis version of Mimi's Farewell.

Carolyn McCall13:16

In voyage war

Carolyn McCall13:43

Some tip watches.

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Save war savo

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Maria Callas, singing Mimi's final aria from Puccini's La Boem with the Orchestra of La Scala, Milan. Carolyn McCall, you have described yourself in the past as a coaster in school. Given your subsequent achievements, I find that really difficult to believe. I don't know if I've ever said that, but I certainly um I read it in an interview in quotes. Did I really say that? Well, I think my mum

Carolyn McCall14:36

Makes sense.

Presenter14:39

Do you know the brilliant thing about my parents is they never really put me under any pressure. But I think what I really meant by that is I was very middling all the way through school until I found I really loved certain subjects. And what happened? Was that a teacher? It was a teacher, as always. I did my GCSEs in India and then I came to Singapore and went to day school to do my O-levels. And I had this brilliant teacher who did history and politics. I was always good at English. And I just flew. I mean, I just really loved it. And then I went on to do that A levels and I loved my A levels. And I just really enjoyed the school bit and the fun bit and the.

Carolyn McCall14:52

And I want to

Carolyn McCall14:54

Right.

Presenter15:17

Learning. What about languages? Did you speak Hindi? Do you speak Hindi? Do you know I used to? I used to have to study Hindi in school. And I can still understand it. And I'm really bad at sp I can't speak it. I can speak very pidgin Hindi. But when I've been there, I can understand it. At university, then it was history and politics that were your subjects. It wasn't business, it wasn't economics. I'm wondering if that learning.

Carolyn McCall15:32

Exit what

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of history and politics ever informs the way you do your job.

Presenter15:41

I think that this thing about being interested in the world, I love travel, I like politics. You know, part of my job today is meeting with governments all across Europe, regulation. I'm fascinated by that. So, I mean, I don't think there was any plan. There's never been a plan. But I do believe that if you like what you're doing, you're better at it. When you're dealing with, you say you meet these top-level politicians, prime ministers and presidents and so on. Was there a point at which you felt you geared up to do that? Or have you always been comfortable in a room with lots of high-powered people? I think the latter. I think being an only child and being surrounded by adults quite a lot probably helps that. I'm never in awe. I just feel people are just human beings and they'll communicate with you on that level. I've always been like that. I said that in the introduction that you worked as a teacher in a London comprehensive school. It was.

Carolyn McCall16:15

Yeah, so adults are actually

Presenter16:30

For about a year you did that? I did that as part of my teacher training. I did a year of in Holland Park Mixed Comprehensive. How did it go? Actually, I absolutely loved it. I really so much respect for the teachers I was working with. And the kids were brilliant, actually. But it was a very tricky school because it was a mixed, very mixed catchment area. So you were having to handle very big classes, 35 to 40 kids, who, you know, didn't really want to learn about the Russian Revolution. And you said their teacher training. That's interesting to me. You didn't have this grand career plan then? No. I had no career plan, really. I woke up one day from university, I thought, oh my god, I'm going to have to go back to Singapore. And I'd met all my friends at university and I had met my boyfriend who became my future husband. And I thought, I don't want to go back to Singapore. I want to be here. So how am I going to stay here? I might as well do teacher training. That's how planned it was. Do you ever dare say to all these young people who I'm sure must ask your advice, you know, if you're at a forum or if you're mentoring somebody, what should my plan be? Do you ever say, don't have a plan? I didn't have one.

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You know what I s what I really say to them is

Presenter17:37

Try and find something that you really like. If you go into something that you think you ought to do because it sounds good or because your mum wants you to do that and you don't really like it and you don't have any passion for it, it's a long, long journey there. Let's have some more music. We're on your fourth. Tell me about this one. Well, you could play anything by John Martin, and I would love it. I just think he's amazing. And this is all about, you know, my university days, really. I went to Kent. I can't remember. I did my first degree there. And we were very lucky because John Martin came to play. And John Martin is just, it reminds me particularly of my husband. It was the first song at our wedding: Sweet Certain Surprise, which I think my mum and dad were kind of like, well, where's the Nat King Cole? But he's just an amazing artist.

Speaker 318:24

Now the air is clear, my dear you're still here and so with certain surprise I give you my sea certain surprise

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Silence has never been my thing, I'm all alone As I love to shout and sing above my love, my Zoom flying up is no one above

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Each other's a praise

Presenter18:58

John Martin and Certain Surprise taking you way back, Caroline McCall, to your student days. Was that enjoyable, that little journey there to remember all of that? That's brilliant. Tell me then when your ambition was ignited. You said you were switched on to learning.

Carolyn McCall19:03

Yeah.

Carolyn McCall19:05

What that

Presenter19:12

In the important part of your school days. So the exams were gotten, you went to university.

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Ambition, though. At university, would people have pegged you as the girl most likely to? I don't think so.

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Because I'd thought, well, should I be a journalist? I like English, I like writing, you know.

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So I started applying for all these jobs and I got this job at The Guardian as a researcher. It was like a planner to both editorial and marketing.

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And three months in, I just thought, right, this is it. This is fantastic. I love it here. So, throughout the decades that you were there then, you went from the ranks of being a researcher right up to being chief executive. Did you have somebody who was, well, we call it mentoring, is the trendy word. Yeah, well, I had a fantastic role model in my first boss, Carolyn Marland, who was ad director. And she was, well, she was a woman for a start. It was important. She was our chief. She was on the board. And she was really energizing to work for. And I remember her saying to someone who I knew well, you know, she could be managing director one day. And this person told me, and I couldn't believe it. I was like, what?

Carolyn McCall19:52

Yeah.

Carolyn McCall20:02

It was important she was actually she was on the board.

Presenter20:18

You know, I'm in ad planning.

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When someone else has that kind of confidence in you.

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It kind of is quite lifting.

Presenter20:28

I don't know. I don't know. I was always interested in what I was doing. I was always keen and I like people and I'm adaptable. One of the very different things you did was in two thousand five.

Presenter20:41

You made a decision to switch the Guardian from its traditional format into what is known in the trade as the Berliner, radically changing the look of the paper. One of the things you did there was to.

Carolyn McCall20:49

One is the

Presenter20:50

Choose to spend fifty million pounds on state-of-the-art printing presses.

Presenter20:55

Looking back at that decision, given that printed media is in such decline, do you look at that now and think, well, that maybe wasn't the wisest of decisions? No, but I can completely see why people would come to that conclusion. What I think they don't know is that we would have had to have either outsourced our printing or repressed, as they would say. So the printing presses were at the end of their life cycle anyway. So we brought that decision forward by two years. Secondly, we had already embarked on the digital strategy and we knew that digital was the future. So the decision about the Berliner was more about how do we get through the next ten years where people will still buy a format that is much more accessible and more European. By your own description, you really loved working at The Guardian, but were you propelled out of it by your ambition? Did you feel I want that FTSE one hundred thing, I want to be a CEO, and I cannot do that here because it, you know, it's a trust and it has limited amount of scope for that kind of expansion. Well, I was CEO of The Guardian and The Observer for about five years, and actually all my kids were born when I did that. You know, so I had twins as well as Daniel, so Maxemi and Daniel. Yeah, that explains the three kids in three years. That's why it sounds so weird. It was really more about when I came to the end of four years as GMG CEO, I thought, you know, either I'm going to make the break or I'm going to be here for quite a long time. And there was no real planning again around that. I just got a phone call out to the blue, you know, December.

Carolyn McCall22:02

Yeah, that explains the three kids in three kids.

Presenter22:25

Saying

Presenter22:27

You know, would you like to come and talk about EastJet? More in a moment about how a woman manages to have three children in three years and run a huge company and stay sane. But for now, tell me about your first disc. This is Keen, Somewhere Only We Know. And actually it does remind me of my Guardian days. This exact track came out as a big hit when we were doing the Berliner and we played it as the background for all the internal communication we did around Berliner.

Speaker 322:52

So tell me where you're gonna let me in.

Speaker 322:58

Getting tired of night, it's somewhere to begin And if you have a minute, why don't we go talk about it somewhere only we know This can be the end of everything So why don't we go So why don't we go

Presenter23:26

That was keen and somewhere only we know. Caroline McCaulie, you said that while you were at the Guardian you had three children in this period of three years. Was there a point at which you thought actually

Presenter23:36

I'm not sure I can do this. Never, actually. Never. No, I never did. I mean, I I do remember saying, I just don't want people to think differently of me. So I remember having a conversation with someone. I said to him, Well, they're all going to think I'm going to not be able to work as hard or I'm not going to be as good. And he looked at me and he went, Are you mad?

Carolyn McCall23:39

Never.

Presenter23:55

He said, Of course they're not going to think that.

Presenter23:58

And that was an important moment because it's a big deal having twins. How long did you take off work?

Carolyn McCall24:01

Seven twins.

Presenter24:03

Well, this is another thing. I was given very good advice by Georgina, who was deputy editor at the time. And she said, I really, really want you to make sure you say that you've taken four months off. You know, even if you're working from home and you're doing all the emails and the phone calls and the board meetings and all of that, it's really important to women in this company that you are the role model. So I kept in touch, but I did take four months off for both my pregnancies. And how much of, I mean, so much of that must surely be a partnership with your husband. There needs to be somebody probably at Sports Day. There needs to be somebody who's there when the school phones. I am always at Sports Day if I can be. How far ahead do you diary your life? Oh, God, a year. At least a year. Yes, it's a partnership, no question. My husband had a corporate job and he now works for himself. And we both work very closely together all the time and we make sure it works for the family. I could never have gone into doing this job without his complete endorsement. And we have help. We have a good, good support network. Do you ever switch off your BlackBerry? Sadly not. It's on the bedside table, is it? It's on the bedside table and it's always on. However, I does your husband ever draw you the look?

Carolyn McCall24:41

How far ahead?

Carolyn McCall24:44

Right.

Carolyn McCall25:07

It's on the bedside.

Carolyn McCall25:11

Does your husband

Presenter25:15

Um, only when I do it in front of the children. So he gets r he will give me the look when, you know, we're just on holiday where I just don't need to be doing that. What do you think you've sacrificed?

Presenter25:27

Time for me. You know, time for friends. I think I've sacrificed exercise.

Presenter25:33

You know, my life really is work and kids. But, you know, I don't see it as a sacrifice. I see it as just part of normal life. But is it worth it? Do you think, you know, when you're 75, you'll look back at that exchange that you've made for not enough time to do your yoga or all those moments and think, yeah, actually, that was worth it. That was a fair swap. You know, it's incredibly important to me. My family is really, really the vital part of my existence. So I do sometimes say to the kids, well, what do you want? Do you want me to give up work? And they go, oh my god, no. I mean, they really don't want me. I'd be on their backs all the time if I came otherwise. But you know, I've never not worked. Never. And I think that's not about identity because I could go off and be a teacher. It's about being active and busy and stimulated. Let's have some more music, Carolyn McCall. We're on your sixth. Tell me about this choice then. Ah, Beach Boys. So it's God Only Knows. The reason I've got this here is because it reminds me of driving down to Devon to see some very good friends of ours when the kids were very young and it had been a really long journey. And just as we were coming into Devon, we could see the sea. Pete put this Beach Boys CD in the thing, and all you could see were all these heads bobbing in the car. She all started singing and it was just fantastic. We all started laughing. And, you know, we play it now whenever we're in Portugal on holiday. So it's really, really just about happy days.

Speaker 326:54

I may not always love you

Speaker 326:58

But long as there are stars above you

Speaker 327:02

You never need to doubt it.

Speaker 327:06

I'll make you so sure about it.

Speaker 327:11

God only knows what I'd be without you.

Speaker 327:19

If you should ever leave me

Speaker 327:23

Well I must go on me

Presenter27:26

That was the Beach Boys, and God only knows. Carolyn McCall, you've been to a place called Wharton, Wharton Business School, and typically, anecdotally at least, these courses that business leaders go on, they can precipitate.

Presenter27:38

Incredible cathartic change in people's lives. You know, people feel when they finish those courses.

Presenter27:45

That something fundamental has changed in them. Did that happen to you? It was an amazing privilege, I think, to be able to do that for six weeks. It was just before I took on the job at The Guardian, the CEO job. I was quite apprehensive because it was basically all blokes. There were two other women there, and it was about 55 people. So you thought maybe I don't belong to you. Well, I was like, yes, I thought, you know, I come from this group, yes. Yes, because I come from a media background, and you know, that's sometimes not seen to be quite business. And all of these people are from all blue chip conglomerates. So I looked around and I thought, well, actually, no, you know, I can do this. I'm as good as they are. So that was quite affirming. And then the second thing is, on the first day, we all had to stand up and say what we were going to miss. And every single bloke stood up and said, My kids, my kids, my kids, my kids, my kids. And I stood up and said, my husband. Because you didn't have kids. I didn't have kids then. And I just remember thinking, I'd always said I wanted kids. And I came back and I said, you know, to Pete, listen, we're going to have to just get on with it. So that was my epiphany, really.

Carolyn McCall28:08

Well, I yes, I thought, you know, I come from the corner.

Carolyn McCall28:12

Yeah.

Carolyn McCall28:38

Because you don't

Carolyn McCall28:39

And in a good

Presenter28:52

You have taken EasyJet to great success now, and it would be fair to say that you have a reputation for being somebody who can turn it around in business. What do you have to do to turn things around?

Presenter29:05

I think you've got to have a very clear vision and I think you have to have good people and I think you have to have a really good plan and I think you have to be resilient and determined because it's never easy. What are the things that keep you awake at night? Safety issues. This is a business which is about safety first and foremost. People issues. That's it really. I sleep really well actually. One of the biggest concerns that surrounds the aviation industry i is of course the impact that it has on the environment. Personally do you do you offset your own carbon footprint? Do you work out how many air miles you've done and give you to the airport? I don't do it quite specifically that that but I do it with my cars and I we carbon offset cars and stuff. So I'm very mindful of it because you have to be. What about your kids? Do they give you any hassle about that?

Carolyn McCall29:39

I don't do it quite.

Presenter29:50

No, not one of them has ever said that.

Presenter29:53

Looking forward to the beach in Portugal too much, I guess. Right, time for some more music then. We're on your seventh, Carolyn. Tell me about this one. Why have you chosen it and what is it?

Carolyn McCall29:55

Yeah.

Presenter30:01

Okay, so I've chosen the jam, a town called Malice. Paul Weller is a huge hero for me in the music world. But again, this is very much about my time at university and lots of bands, lots of fun. Now, I got to university and it was liberating. Having come from boarding school, I was probably quite naive and innocent, you know, and I suddenly had this whole world open up to me and it was fantastic.

Speaker 330:43

Please

Speaker 330:45

Sundays Bets Dash against the Cow Walk.

Speaker 330:52

Wanna come down here on a good spoon? It's a fake decision in the top of my bed.

Presenter31:00

The jam and a time called malice. So, Caroline McCall, what would you like to run next?

Presenter31:05

I'm very happy running. Oh, I really were going to say that. I really, really am. I mean, honestly, I've been there three years. Okay. In 20 years' time, when you leave EasyJet, that seems a reasonable amount of time.

Carolyn McCall31:06

Oh my god, you're going to say that. I mean, honestly, I've been.

Carolyn McCall31:14

Bye.

Presenter31:15

M and S, the B B C, what would it be? Genuinely, I have no idea. I have no plan. Do people try and headhunt you?

Presenter31:24

Yeah.

Presenter31:25

No?

Presenter31:27

I don't actually believe that. I saw the look in your eyes and I don't believe it. Um, all right. People talk sometimes about having the curse of a very successful parent. I know your kids are still very young, but when you're talking to them about the big wide world out there what do you say to them? I just want them to be happy. All Pete and I ask them to do is do their best. I hope they find things that they really like to do so that they can have long careers. I'm going to cast you away then, Karen. How will you be? Will that will that be fine? Absolutely fine. I can switch off very quickly. I love music, I love my books, I love the beach, I love swimming. But I would not be phased. I like the concept of having some time.

Presenter32:03

On my own. I bet. Let's have your final piece of music then. What are we going to hear? So, my final piece of music is Keith Jarrett, The Cologne Concert Part One. And this is a very special piece of music for me. It was introduced to me by my husband. I used to play the piano and I gave it up. If I had one regret, it would be that I didn't do more than my Grade 8 piano exam. I mean, it's just an amazing piece of music. He's a great pianist.

Presenter33:23

Keith Jarrett and a Cologne Concert, Part 1. So, Callan, I'm going to give you the books now. You get the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you get to take another book along too. What will you take?

Presenter33:33

Now I was going to say the Virago Modern Classics collection that I've got. Will you let me do that? Well, it's got to be one volume. Okay, so I'll go for Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice. Right, okay, that's yours. You get to take a luxury as well. What would you like to take? I would take an solar-powered iPad with all my photos on it. Only as a photo album, you're not. Only as a photo album to take all my photos. Right, I will give you that. Thank you. And if you had to save just one of these discs from the waves, which one would it be?

Carolyn McCall33:52

Only as a fixed.

Carolyn McCall33:58

Thank you.

Presenter34:03

It doesn't have to be John Martin. It's yours, Caroline McColl. Thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Presenter34:50

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co. uk slash radio four.