Sir Terry Leahy

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the businessman, Sir Terry Leahy. The former CEO of Tesco, he made his name transforming a lackluster brand into Britain's biggest retailer, valued at thirty five billion and employing around three hundred thousand staff globally.

Presenter0:50

Can it really be true that he started stacking shelves there as a schoolboy? Well, it is true, too, that he was brought up in a house devoid of books, in a family that could never afford to take holidays. His ascent to the very top then was marked by a fundamental understanding of his customers' needs, and a single minded determination powered by fear of failure. He says of himself

Presenter1:12

I was a relatively shy guy from a councillor state, and an unlikely chief executive. I'm quite happy not to be in the limelight.

Presenter1:19

Too bad, Terry Leahy, you're in it to day. Um is it un an uncomfortable place for you to be, the limelight?

Sir Terry Leahy1:24

Yeah, this is not uh where I'm happiest, but uh I'm uh looking forward to today.

Presenter1:30

The day of your departure, then, at Tesco's, when it was announced seven hundred and seventy eight million was wiped off the value of the company. W was that flattering, or was it worrying?

Sir Terry Leahy1:41

As somebody said, it was enough of a drop to mark the occasion, but not so bad that it really caused a problem.

Presenter1:48

Must have given you pause for thought that.

Sir Terry Leahy1:51

Yes. Well, it had been my life, so leaving was difficult, but I've got very good memories of the business.

Presenter1:57

It must have been a highly personal feeling to decide to leave and and had a huge personal impact, I imagine.

Sir Terry Leahy2:03

It did. Although you've got to keep that under control because you're one person of, well now, half a million people and you've got to keep it in perspective.

Sir Terry Leahy2:13

People do view big organizations as faceless and impersonal. And of course they're not. They're made up of all of those people and all of their

Sir Terry Leahy2:22

hopes and aspirations and fears, and that was the business that I knew.

Presenter2:26

And how have you found the inevitable, I'm guessing, loss of status? Is that tricky?

Sir Terry Leahy2:31

That's a pleasure. Uh I n I never enjoyed the limelight or the status, so just disappearing into the crowd is ideal.

Presenter2:41

We're going to go to the music then. Tell me about your first disc. What is it and why have you chosen it?

Sir Terry Leahy2:46

Well, coming from Liverpool, I had to include The Beatles, and it it could have been any Beatles song. I think I chose this one because it it's around 1963, and although I was a young boy then, six or seven, I remember the Mersey beat and the fact that in every street there seemed to be a pop band. The drummer from the Swinging Blue Jeans was in our street. And I remember waiting outside the dance halls as the bands played. And the Beatles, of course, was right at the top of that. And I think this was the first song that got to number one in the US.

Speaker 33:27

Oh yeah

Speaker 33:29

Tell your son then.

Speaker 33:31

I think you'll understand.

Speaker 33:34

Can I say that something?

Speaker 33:38

I wanna hold a ha

Speaker 33:42

I wanna hold you

Speaker 33:46

I wanna hold your hand.

Presenter3:49

That was the Beatles, and I want to hold your hand. Is it true, Sir Teddy Leahy, that Paul McCartney appeared in your leaving video?

Sir Terry Leahy3:56

He did, actually. Yeah, it was a bit of a spoof video about what I would do in retirement and Paul McCartney said come and join my band which if he'd ever heard me sing, he'd know that wasn't a a clever invitation, but it was good fun.

Presenter4:08

Um I read that you were working between seventy and eighty hours a week for thirty years. I think you yourself said that it was the fear of failing that powered you through. Is that right?

Sir Terry Leahy4:18

Yeah, and I don't think that's so unusual. You know, my parents were immigrants. I I came from Ireland, I came from a councillor state, so you don't assume things are going to be given to you. You feel that you've got to work hard to get them. And there's an insecurity there, I think, at the heart of it. You don't want to let anybody down. You don't want to let yourself down. You can't really, I suppose, face the shame of failure. There's no safety net. And it drives you on, I think.

Presenter4:48

Uh

Presenter4:50

And there wasn't a point where you thought, well, there is a safety net now. I've created my own safety net, you know, and I can relax now, I can turn the seventy hours into fifty hours.

Presenter4:58

Well, unfortunately.

Sir Terry Leahy5:00

As well as the insecurity, I I always sort of had ideas about things. I was an optimist. I felt I could make it a bit better. And so it was that fascination with making things a bit better that kept me going.

Presenter5:12

Yes, you wa you once said this thing about making the shopping experience better for ordinary people. W was that at the heart of your motivation?

Sir Terry Leahy5:20

So I I remember my mum had there were four boys in the family and I think I was the daughter she never had. I always went shopping with her and I remember the shops in the early sixties, they were very poor places. People look back, I think, through rose-tinted spectacles. At that time you you'd spend half of your wages on food. Today it's less than ten percent and the choice, quality, the safety, the variety is so much better. And I think improving food in that way for ordinary families did make a difference. It was worthwhile trying to do that.

Presenter5:53

So indeed when every as we heard repeatedly, sometimes the figure said one in every seven pounds, sometimes it was one in every eight pounds that was spent in Britain was spent in Tesco's, and you became a sort of bogey man figure, you know, this is the man who's trying to change Britain, you know, he's trying to make every place look the same. You you took that personally, did you?

Sir Terry Leahy6:10

I tried not to take it personally and to deal with it, you know, sensibly and engage in the debate. But I I felt very strongly inside that Tesco was doing the right thing in terms of how it was conducting its business, how it was serving ordinary people, how it was employing ordinary people. But I realized that I wasn't winning the argument with some people. You see, if you talk to people, you'll find that actually ninety-five percent of the population quite like supermarkets.

Sir Terry Leahy6:42

Five percent don't. But of course in Britain five percent is three million people, so you know, they have a voice and and they've got a right to uh

Sir Terry Leahy6:50

Say what they think.

Presenter6:51

Yeah, and and what about going home at night? Would you sort of rail against it with your wife? These ungrateful so-and-so's I'm trying to make their lives better and here they are complaining about what it is I'm doing.

Sir Terry Leahy7:00

I don't think so. No. I think when I got home it was, you know, David hasn't done his homework, you know, Katie's room's a mess. Go and sort it out, because uh Alison was working too as a doctor. And so we were just busy like anybody else with the family and uh that takes your mind off things.

Presenter7:15

It does. Let's have some music then. What are we going to hear for our second track this morning?

Sir Terry Leahy7:19

My father never mentioned music to me at all and then out the blue just before he died he this song was on the radio and he said I've always loved this song.

Speaker 47:32

When first I saw her love like in your eyes.

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I thought the world held not but you

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And even though we've drifted farther apart

Speaker 47:58

I never dream.

Speaker 48:00

But what I dream of thee

Presenter8:06

That was the Furies, and when you were sweet sixteen. So, Terry Leahy, you were born in nineteen fifty six in Liverpool. What are your earliest memories of life at home?

Sir Terry Leahy8:15

We were in a prefab and actually prefabs were quite nice to live in. They had a an indoor toilet and a a kitchen, but they were very small. I think it was just two bedrooms, so all the children were in one room.

Sir Terry Leahy8:26

And uh my earliest memory actually was going to Ireland uh when I was three. And uh that was nearly the end of the story because I actually stepped out into the road in front of a police car that was racing to what turned out to be a fatal accident. And that would have been the end of Terry Leahy because the car literally stopped.

Presenter8:49

Um

Sir Terry Leahy8:49

Uh about three inches away.

Presenter8:49

Yeah.

Presenter8:51

Was your mother there?

Sir Terry Leahy8:52

She must have had a terrible experience, because she was stuck in the back seat of the car, could see the whole thing happening.

Presenter8:55

Could see the

Sir Terry Leahy8:57

It was my uncle that was looking after me and he didn't have children. I suppose he didn't know to uh watch these things.

Presenter9:02

So you were the third of four boys, and you you've described your dad as not the regular breadwinner. When he had a job, what was his job?

Sir Terry Leahy9:09

He was a lovely man, my dad. He was a ship's carpenter, but he was severely wounded in the war. He was in the merchant navy and his ship was sunk more than once. And he had got TB, so he couldn't really hold down a job. And so he became a greyhound trainer and a gambler. And sometimes there was money, but often there wasn't. So it was really my mum, who was a nurse, who sort of brought in the regular income.

Presenter9:34

It's a roller coaster that life, isn't it? If your dad was a bookie or your dad was a gambler. It's either things are fine and we can buy Christmas presents or we can buy the week's shopping or there's literally

Presenter9:44

Nothing.

Sir Terry Leahy9:45

That's right. We were never hungry, but we never had any material things. Uh never went on holidays or things like that.

Presenter9:52

And was he a drinker?

Sir Terry Leahy9:54

He was a drinker, but it was never a a particular problem. It must have been difficult for my mum, perhaps. But they loved each other.

Presenter10:01

Were you shy back then?

Sir Terry Leahy10:02

I was very shy, yeah, crippled by shyness. I remember my first day at school I was well behaved and I thought it wasn't too bad, and then I was horrified the next day to learn you had to do it all over again, so I promptly ran away and kept on running away, and I think it was just homesickness.

Presenter10:19

Um as a CEO, what's the largest group of people you've ever had to stand up in front of to talk?

Sir Terry Leahy10:25

Thousands, I think.

Presenter10:27

So how's the boy who was crippled by shyness? How's he cope with that?

Sir Terry Leahy10:30

It was difficult, but I was this odd mix of somebody who always had ideas but was too timid to put them into action, so I had to get over it and, you know, take in a deep breath and learn how to do it. And I did. And in some senses, there are advantages of not being overconfident. You tend to be a better listener, I think, a better watcher, observer.

Sir Terry Leahy10:51

There's a degree of humility too, which I think communicates itself to people.

Presenter10:56

Let's have some music then, Terry Lee. What are we going to hear now? We're on your uh third track of the morning.

Sir Terry Leahy11:00

Well, this is Simon and Garfunkel. And I suppose if you asked me what's my favorite music, it'd have to be folk music. And this one is Homeward Bound. Paul Simon actually wrote it in Widness railway station. It's a nice song about leaving home and homesickness.

Speaker 311:15

I'm sitting in the railway station Got a ticket for my destination

Speaker 311:26

On a tour of one night stands My suitcase and guitar in hand And every stop is neatly planned For a poet and a one-man band

Speaker 311:38

Homeward bound.

Speaker 311:41

I'll show what's homeward bound.

Presenter11:45

Holy

Presenter11:49

Simon Garfunkel and Homeward Bound. So, Terry Leahy, your mother is still alive. Did did she see your sort of big, big success? I know now she she has Alzheimer's, but was she aware of your big success when it came?

Sir Terry Leahy12:00

I don't think she was fully aware. That that uh my parents were very loving and very supporting, but they never took a a great deal of interest. Uh they didn't try to get too involved. Uh for example, they wouldn't have known what course I did at university, but they were just very happy if I was happy.

Presenter12:15

Yeah.

Speaker 312:15

Okay.

Presenter12:15

Okay.

Sir Terry Leahy12:17

I think in those days parents were not as involved in the detail of your life as we are now. You know, I know a lot about what my children are up to. I'm sure not all. Society has changed.

Presenter12:30

He won a place at St Edward's College in Liverpool, which was a good fee-paying school. How did that happen?

Sir Terry Leahy12:36

You had an eleven plus and I suppose the brightest pupils got to the best school and then some of the places were funded by the local authority on a scholarship.

Presenter12:46

And things like, you know, when you go to a school that is perceived as a better school, you know, you've got to have the the rugby kit and you get two hours of homework every night. How did you cope with all of the demands when you were going home to a prefab where space was tight and money was tight?

Sir Terry Leahy13:00

Not very well. My m mum must have really struggled to get the uniform together and everything. Um I mean uniforms are quite cheap now. Um but but then you went to a special haberdasher or or whatever and uh they were expensive.

Speaker 313:09

Yeah.

Sir Terry Leahy13:15

And I hadn't really learnt how to study. You know, as you said, there were no books in the house, and so I didn't really keep up with the homework, and at the start didn't do particularly well at school, and was rather the class clown.

Presenter13:29

Right, when did that change?

Sir Terry Leahy13:31

Around the time of my A levels I got interested in things, economics, history, and had views about things and I found that no one listened to what the class clown had to say, so

Sir Terry Leahy13:41

So I had to knuckle down uh and then, you know, was actually found that I was quite good at studying.

Presenter13:46

And your brothers all went on to apprenticeships.

Sir Terry Leahy13:48

They did, yeah.

Presenter13:49

How did that conversation go in the house?'Cause of course when you're an apprentice you get a wage, it's a small wage, but you get a wage.

Sir Terry Leahy13:55

Yeah, the my dad wanted me to leave school at sixteen to bring a wage into the house, and I remember that conversation. He felt that really they couldn't afford to support me into the sixth form. So I always worked through the sixth form with odd jobs and things.

Presenter14:09

We're not job.

Presenter14:11

Was that when you first worked at Tesco then?

Sir Terry Leahy14:11

Was that when

Sir Terry Leahy14:12

It it was, yeah, I was seventeen and you couldn't get a even a holiday job in Liverpool, so I went down to London. I I applied in a few places, building sites and things, and I got a job in Tesco in Wandsworth, and my job was to fill the tea and coffee

Presenter14:27

Did you think, I know I have to do this now, but I don't want to be doing it in five, ten, fifteen years' time?

Sir Terry Leahy14:32

Not so much Tesco. That happened to me earlier on. My first holiday job, I think I was about 15, in Meccano, the toy maker, used to be in Liverpool. And I got a job at the end of the assembly line where the die-cast models, you know, just come out the forge, I suppose. And the noise, it was like an inferno, it was terrible.

Presenter14:42

Yeah.

Speaker 314:50

Yeah.

Sir Terry Leahy14:54

And that frightened me. I didn't want to do that type of work for the rest of my life. And so that spurred me on to make sure I passed my exams.

Presenter15:03

Some more music, then. We're on your fourth. What are we going to hear, Terry Lehi?

Sir Terry Leahy15:07

When I left Manchester, where I was at the co-op, and I came down to London around about 1980, and it was just at the time of punk music and new wave music. And I got an attic flat in London above a punk rock band called the UK Subs. Oh, yes. So they used to play their music every day till four in the morning, and I would be rocked to sleep by the UK Subs. And then I was up one morning with the Today programme on my transistor radio, and there was a bang on the door, and it was a man in a leopard skin leotard. He said, Will you turn that radio down? I'm trying to get some sleep.

Presenter15:26

Do you?

Sir Terry Leahy15:46

But I won't ask you to play the UK subs, but instead it's Depesh mode.

Speaker 315:48

Right.

Speaker 315:52

When I'm with you, baby, I go out of my head. But I just can't get enough, I just can't get enough.

Speaker 316:00

All the things you do to me and everything is her I just can't get off, I just can't get enough

Speaker 316:08

We slip and glide and we fall in love.

Speaker 316:11

I just can't seem to get it up.

Presenter16:24

That was depeche mode, and I just can't get enough. Sir Terry Leahy, did you ever own crimpers and wear eyeliner, and have a big flouncy shirt?

Sir Terry Leahy16:31

Uh

Sir Terry Leahy16:32

No, I didn't.

Presenter16:33

Oh I'm crushed. How did you look then when you were listening to this sort of music?

Sir Terry Leahy16:37

Uh probably about forty.

Presenter16:43

Did you? Were you always rather sort of sitting and vitted and smiling?

Sir Terry Leahy16:45

I think so, yeah. I d I do remember I b I brought my first sort of Rain Mac when I was twenty seven, I've still got it actually.

Presenter16:51

Okay. You you you joined Tesco then as a trainee. We know that you'd worked for a time at Co op, and before that you'd been a shelf stacker in Wandsworth, but it was a marketing executive trainee you joined as. And you said at the time you felt that you faced a choice to kill or be killed. Strong words.

Sir Terry Leahy17:06

Yes, when I left the co-op, which was a nice organisation, I remember a salesman saying they'll eat you alive at Tesco. Because it was a bit of a Wild West place at that time. Bags of energy, but people sort of scrambling to the top. And I suppose that put me on my guard and thought, well, you know, if you're meek and timid here, you'll get crushed underfoot. So I sort of fought back. And it was a good experience, actually. You made sure that you knew what you thought was important, what you were going to stand and fight on, and what you would let go. And that was useful. And I learned actually there's only a few things that are important and most things you can let pass.

Presenter17:44

Why did you think that you knew what would work?

Sir Terry Leahy17:48

I always felt I knew people and knew what people wanted. I think it was an advantage of my background. And I was curious about people and I thought I could always make things work a bit better.

Presenter18:00

What sort of leader were you?

Sir Terry Leahy18:02

Challenging, you know, but tried to coach people to get the best out of them. I hope I never attacked a person. I might have attacked an argument, although you know, if you're at the receiving end, it's sometimes hard to distinguish between the two. I always wanted to try to make people feel better about themselves, to build their confidence. And I didn't used to send a lot of memos around or emails or anything like that. I was you know relatively quiet, I think, as a leader. And that was unsettling for some people, but they came to understand that I was actually trusting them to go and do their job.

Presenter18:38

When you were chief executive, you used to spend uh was it a week on the shop floor every year?

Sir Terry Leahy18:44

Yeah.

Presenter18:44

Unannounced?

Sir Terry Leahy18:45

Yes, I I'd ring up the store on a Friday and say I'm coming along on the Monday so they didn't worry too much.

Presenter18:49

Yeah

Sir Terry Leahy18:51

And then I'd work on the checkouts or filling the shelves.

Presenter18:55

Is it true that somebody once said to you after a week on the tills, you'll go far? Is that true? Yeah, they did.

Sir Terry Leahy19:00

Yeah, they did, yeah. I was terrible on the tills. Because y there's a lot to do and if you don't do it regularly, it shows. So I slowly checked out this lady and she said, Yeah, you weren't very good at it, but you tried hard and you were rather polite, so I think you'll do well.

Presenter19:01

Yeah.

Presenter19:04

If you don't

Presenter19:13

Wise words. Let's have some music. What are we going to hear next, Harry?

Sir Terry Leahy19:16

Well, this is the first uh classical piece. I've always enjoyed uh classical music and and this short piece is perfect, I think, and it it reminds me that music really can change your mood, lift your spirits.

Presenter20:25

That was Pachabelle's Canon in D and just in case uh people think you're getting too above your station, Terry Leahy, you mentioned to me during that that it is the basis of an Everton song.

Sir Terry Leahy20:33

It is, yeah. It's the most successful Everton song called Altogether Now which was recorded for our cup final visit in nineteen ninety five.

Presenter20:43

I should mention to people that the version we just heard was performed by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and it was conducted by Herbert von Kerrian. You once said of yourself, Terry Leahy, I'm a loyal person by nature. One firm, one football team, one religion, and one wife.

Presenter20:57

And I guess we could add to that and one club card. Is that where the idea came from? This idea that you would try to cement a purchaser, a shopper, to your business.

Sir Terry Leahy21:07

That's right. Loyalty cards don't make people loyal. What they do do is they allow you to understand a little bit more about a person, so you have the chance to alter the products, the services, the information, so that they're more useful to that person. And in that way, if the person can see the organisation is doing things that are useful, helpful to them in some small way, gradually it builds loyalty.

Presenter21:31

It almost sounds like you're running a charity. Obviously the usefulness of of a a big organization like Tesco or Sainsbury's or whoever in having a club card is that they monitor people's spending, they can get a sense of them as a consumer and they can

Presenter21:44

Mercilessly target them with things that they they hope they will buy.

Sir Terry Leahy21:48

They can and you know you can either do good or bad with that. But if you think about a doctor, they have to know something about the patient in order for them to do their best work. With a store, if you know a little bit more about a customer, what they're interested in, how they shop, when they shop, you can do a better job for them. What you have to be careful to do is to make sure that you're actually creating things which are beneficial. You're not manipulating the customer.

Presenter22:13

Well, that's a huge amount of trust to put in an organization that is there to reward its shareholders and make money. I mean, a doctor has the patient's best interests at heart, but a company, understandably, has the interests of shareholders at heart.

Sir Terry Leahy22:25

Well, the best organizations do put their customers at the heart. And I think we were able to persuade our owners, our shareholders, that the best way for them to get a return was by improving shopping for customers.

Presenter22:39

I wonder, when you look at boarded up little shops on our High Street, does the decimation of everything that we held dear you know, the little butchers and the little bakers and so on does it make you sad?

Sir Terry Leahy22:52

It does, but it is part of progress. People are not made to shop in supermarkets. They choose to shop there. High streets, some of them are medieval and the way that we live our lives now is very different. So what you have to do is make sure that the benefits do outweigh the costs, and I think that they do.

Presenter23:11

Do you think then that if the three quid chicken means that the local family butcher that's been there for three generations closes, well that's just it's just tough.

Sir Terry Leahy23:22

No, I think I think you've got to remember that small benefits for thousands of families can be a big loss for the family of the butcher, so you can never be casual about it. But it's the best way of ensuring that the better organisations come through. You know, there might be another butcher who's really good, and you don't want a society that prevents the one who's good getting more custom and doing well.

Presenter23:46

A little butcher, however good he is though, can't fight the might of a huge organisation.

Sir Terry Leahy23:52

Not easily, but you can. If you're really focussed and good at what you do, you can thrive. And remember that all big organizations started as small organizations, and Jack Cohen started Tesco on a market stall. What you have to ensure is that you don't have a situation where large businesses prevent small businesses from growing. The competition has to be fair, it has to be regulated. And of course, the supermarket industry has been looked into exhaustively by government over many years. And actually, they've concluded that supermarkets do serve society.

Presenter24:26

What happens if you open the fridge and one of your kids who are big enough now to shop for themselves or or your wife has got something in there from waitrose, do you throw a hissy fit?

Sir Terry Leahy24:35

Severe telling off, yes. I I actually bribed my children to sort of inform on Alison if ever she popped into Waitrose when she picked up the kids from school. Do you really? I do. And did she?

Presenter24:45

Do you really?

Sir Terry Leahy24:47

occasionally, but I would complain so much that she didn't bother.

Presenter24:50

Let's have some more music then, Terry Lehea. What are we going to hear now?

Sir Terry Leahy24:53

I mentioned earlier that I I've always liked folk music and um Cat Stevens was brilliant and my kids started listening to him and it reminded me just how good he was and this one is uh father and son.

Speaker 425:12

It's not time to make a change.

Speaker 425:16

Just relax, take it easy. You're still young, that's your fault.

Speaker 425:23

There's so much you have to know or find a girl.

Speaker 425:28

Settle down.

Speaker 425:30

If you want, you can Mary look at me.

Speaker 425:36

I am old.

Speaker 425:38

But I'm happy.

Presenter25:40

That was Father and Son by Cat Stevens. I'm wondering, Terry Leahy you're a father of three kids do you have any regrets about the amount of time that you've I presume you've spent a lot of time travelling?

Sir Terry Leahy25:50

I did and um all I could do was there was just two things in my life, family and Tesco and so when it wasn't Tesco it was family and we would all go to the football together. I brought them up as Everton supporters and uh it's hard to know what it would have been like if it was different. They they s seem happy, confident kids now, we get on great, so that's all you can ask for.

Presenter26:12

And your wife, uh Alison, she she's a doctor and, you know, she's kept on working all the way through, being a mother to three children, twins and then a boy.

Presenter26:21

There are demands of a corporate husband or wife, aren't there? You know, they have to turn up, looking the part and talking the talk. How did she manage to combine all of that?

Sir Terry Leahy26:29

Well she works incredibly hard, but she has a vocation, uh which is her work as a doctor. And uh we tried to keep the corporate side to a minimum, but she turns up and plays her role very, very well. I remember at my uh leaving party she was so much fun. All the people there thought we've invited the wrong Leahy out all these years.

Presenter26:51

And um what about the expectations on your children? It's difficult, isn't it? If mum or dad is is very successful and and very publicly successful, that can be a weight, it can be a burden on children. Ha have you talked to them about your success and what you expect of them?

Sir Terry Leahy27:06

Well, I I learned from my own parents. They never placed any expectations on me. They just gave me love. And and that's what I've tried to do with my children and and not to place expectations on them, but just to support w whatever they wish to do.

Presenter27:21

I wonder, how easy do you think it would be for somebody starting out in their working life these days to have made the the journey, the professional journey that you made?

Sir Terry Leahy27:29

I think it is possible, though I think it is harder now. I had the benefit of a a great institution in my council estate, the Catholic Church and the church school. I was able to go to a grammar school, which gave me an education that was second to none and gave me the academic confidence and the aspiration to move on and up in society. And I'm not sure in those councillor states you've got those same institutions today. And that's a shame, and we've got to find a way of reconnecting these places to society so people who want to feel they can get out and up.

Presenter28:07

Let's have some more music then. What are we going to hear?

Sir Terry Leahy28:10

My wife Alison al has always loved uh English hymns and choral music and she introduced me to The Messiah when we first met and we've always enjoyed listening to it together when we're cooking or whatever and uh it reminds me of of sharing time uh with Alison.

Speaker 328:37

And the government shall be upon his throne.

Presenter29:18

Unto us a child is born from Handel's Messiah, performed by the Tenerbury Choir and accompanied by the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Colin Davis.

Presenter29:28

Let's look ahead, then, Sir Terry Leahy. We know you're no longer in charge of Tesco's, of course, but you you're not spending seven hours a day on the golf course. You are busy with other things, and one of the things you're busy with is investing in start up companies. What catches your eye?

Sir Terry Leahy29:41

Actually, it starts with the person. I like working with interesting people. They've usually got an idea and I'm able to provide some money so that they can get underway and perhaps a bit of advice. And a lot of it's online, e-commerce, online educational tutoring, down to an online tyre business.

Presenter30:00

We were, of course, once characterised as a nation of shopkeepers. As you look to the f future of business and as you're investing in small companies trying to make their mark, do you think that's still at the heart of who Britain is and who its entrepreneurs want to be?

Sir Terry Leahy30:14

Yes, we're we're a trading nation and we go out around the world and engage and so much of the world's economy now is about services and we're good at that. And the English language is the business language of the world. People respect our legal system. They like doing business with the British and in Britain. And if we can just match that with a bit more ambition, a bit more confidence in a way that we can take on the best in the world and do well, I think we have a great future.

Presenter30:43

So I found out at the beginning that you're not somebody who loves the limelight. How have you found out sitting here talking about yourself in front of a microphone?

Sir Terry Leahy30:50

It's a little uncomfortable, but I looked forward to it, and it's been enjoyable.

Presenter30:54

Okay. Now things get even worse, of course, because I'm sending you to this desert island, all by yourself. What will you look back at, and take comfort from, and worry about?

Sir Terry Leahy30:54

Uh

Sir Terry Leahy31:04

Hopefully I won't look back too much. I'll probably worry about uh the th the problems of the present and and knowing me start looking forward and planning and uh I'll I'll probably collect driftwood and build a Tesco on the corner of the island.

Presenter31:18

Are you a warrior?

Sir Terry Leahy31:20

I am a worrier. Uh but that's a healthy thing, you know, because um i if if you're responsible for something you need to think about what might be round the corner.

Presenter31:29

Let's have your final piece of music then, Terry Leahy. What are we going to hear now?

Sir Terry Leahy31:32

This is the first opera that I ever went to and actually it's the last opera uh I've been to more recently and I've decided it's it's the best opera.

Speaker 331:52

Yes, it's a criminal that over.

Presenter32:34

La Mour et Amoiseur Rabel from Bizet's Carmen sung by Kiriti Canawa with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by George Schulte.

Presenter32:42

So now we get to the point, Terry, where I'm going to give you the books. You get the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you get to take your own book as well. What would you like to take?

Sir Terry Leahy32:50

Well, if I can take in other complete works it would be Charles Dickens.

Presenter32:53

You can. I'll give that to you. And what about a luxury? You're allowed to take something to make life just a little more bearable.

Sir Terry Leahy32:59

Uh how about tea? And I could sip my tea and read the book and listen to uh the music.

Presenter33:04

Very civilized. Um, and if I had to force you to pick just one of these eight discs, which one would you like?

Sir Terry Leahy33:12

I think it would be Pac-Obell, because uh whatever problems you faced that day or whatever mood you were in, it it would lift you out of it, I think.

Presenter33:20

Sir Terry Leahy, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Sir Terry Leahy33:23

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 333:59

Uh

Presenter34:01

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio Four.