Aung San Suu Kyi

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Aung San Su Ky, leader of Burma's opposition party, the NL D. She has dedicated herself to fighting for human rights and democracy in her homeland.

Presenter0:44

A figure of world renown, she is known in Burma simply as the Lady, a principled, formidable, graceful presence, and a beacon of hope to a nation repressed for decades by a savage military dictatorship. President Obama calls her an icon of democracy. Desmond Tutu says she is a remarkable woman, ready to work for the healing of her motherland.

Presenter1:07

Her renown has come at significant personal cost years of house arrest and persecution, exiled from her children and apart from her British husband, who died from cancer in nineteen ninety nine.

Presenter1:18

She says, It takes courage to feel the truth, to feel one's conscience, because once you do, you must engage your fundamental purpose for being alive. You can't just expect to sit idly by and have freedom handed to you. Dosu, we're sitting in your home in Burma's capital, Napiador, where the Parliament sits and where you took your seat when you were elected an MP in april twenty twelve. I wonder at this very moment what you make of your position in Burmese society and of where Burma is.

Aung San Suu Kyi1:49

My position in Burmese society is simply that of somebody trying to build up the foundations of a genuine working democracy. I'm one of many people working towards it. And where Burma is, is we're at the beginning of the road to democratization. I do not think we can say that we have started the genuine process of democratization yet, but we now have the opportunity to start.

Aung San Suu Kyi2:15

Yeah.

Presenter2:15

We should also remind people maybe of the remarkable twenty twelve that you had. You found your seat as an MP in twenty twelve, you were granted a passport, you travelled to Oslo to collect the Nobel Peace Prize, which you were awarded way back in 1991. You visited Oxford, where you met up with old friends and colleagues from Oxford University, and indeed where you had your early family life. You were given the U. S. Congressional Medal, which is the highest civilian honor that anyone can receive. And you were visited in Rangoon by President Obama himself. Is there one single thing that stands out for you as a very important moment?

Aung San Suu Kyi2:48

not one single moment, but similar moments. These were the ones that took place during the campaign for the by elections. It was just the number of young people who were participating in the campaign. I think those moments all

Aung San Suu Kyi3:05

Come together.

Presenter3:06

Uh

Aung San Suu Kyi3:06

to mean the most important

Presenter3:08

important thing in my life. It's interesting that you talk about the young people because I found myself sitting just a f a few rows behind you today on on an aeroplane, entirely unplanned. Were you there? I was there. And I was watching the line of people who came

Aung San Suu Kyi3:17

Oh, what you think?

Presenter3:22

I have to say in a in a rather reverential way, but among them was one particular, very young woman,

Presenter3:28

who she almost kneeled before you. It seemed to me that she got rather emotional and you and you exchanged a a good amount of conversation with her, very intimate conversation.

Presenter3:37

It must be an incredible thing to feel that you hold the hopes of a nation and indeed the nation's youth in your hands in the way that you do.

Aung San Suu Kyi3:46

I don't look at it like that. I try to look as much as possible at each person as an individual. And I was very impressed by her because she is actually the daughter of a farmer. And Burmese farmers are not, of course, like English farmers. They're poor. They're not rich farmers. And she has managed to get herself a doctorate from Japan.

Aung San Suu Kyi4:07

in agriculture. Now this is the sort of story that I find very inspiring. She's very, very committed to doing something for the land where her father and her forefathers worked.

Aung San Suu Kyi4:22

Yeah.

Presenter4:22

You spent, all told, around about twenty years under house arrest. I know that at times you you played the piano, you listened to music. How important was music in enabling you to stay calm and centered at that time?

Presenter4:35

A two

Aung San Suu Kyi4:35

It was very important. During the years of house arrest, music was a way of keeping me in touch with friends and family who were far away, and I have chosen music that reminds me of people who are important to me. I have to confess that I don't really have a talent for music. I wish I did, but I don't have a talent for music.

Presenter4:55

It goes without saying really that we're absolutely delighted to have you as a castaway on Desert Islandists. Is it true that there was a point many, many years ago when you were listening to Radio four in Oxford and you were joking with your son that one day you would be castaway on Desert Islandists?

Aung San Suu Kyi5:09

Oh, we were not joking. He was perfectly serious when he asked me whether I thought that one day I would be on Desert Island Disc, and I was perhaps taking it in a light hearted way when I said, Why not? I hope that he'll be able to listen to this programme.

Presenter5:23

And remember that day long, long ago. We hope so too. So let's turn to the music then. Tell me about the first disc that we're going to hear today. What is it, and particularly why have you chosen it?

Aung San Suu Kyi5:33

I have chosen music that reminds me of people who are important to me. And it's a song about my father, which was sung in the early days of the war when he first became the young national hero, the commander of the Burma Independence Army. And I was taught to sing it as a child.

Speaker 25:51

Say Adlanda, Mango Majore. Nado Lumio Dabo Shibu, Mega Suny Dagabe, Tado Maha Bandula near.

Speaker 26:05

Swan puppy, the other one younger.

Speaker 16:48

Oh dear my friend, oh my fair.

Presenter7:01

That was Kamya Jee singing Asia's Hero General Aung Sang.

Aung San Suu Kyi7:05

The words are very moving and very inspiring at the same time. There is this chorus where he is described as the person who will go down in Burmese history, and that he has appeared at at the time when the Burmese people needed him.

Presenter7:20

And indeed, of course, he did go down in Burmese history. He he led your country to independence in nineteen forty seven. Except that he didn't live to see it. Six months before he was assassinated. That's right. And you at that time were two years old. I was two. Two years older. Do you have any memories of your father?

Aung San Suu Kyi7:30

I was

Aung San Suu Kyi7:34

I don't think it's a real memory. I think this is a memory that has been c kept alive artificially by my mother and others, who would always remind me that whenever he came back from work

Presenter7:44

He would pick me up. And you have two paintings hanging here in in your sitting room of your father. It's important for you still to feel that somewhere in you that spirit is alive, is it?

Aung San Suu Kyi7:53

Yes, my father is my first love and my best love. I loved listening to stories about my father. And my mother, of course, concentrated on the fact that he was very honest, he loved his family, his country very much, and then he was brave. And then, of course, he was a very good student. But I think I can say my father was my first love, because I was always told that he loved me best. And so this gave me tremendous confidence in life that I was my father's best loved. And this is why he's my first love.

Presenter8:26

And your mother, I gather, was a pretty extraordinary character, too. You once said that your mother let you take it for granted that women could do anything.

Aung San Suu Kyi8:35

Well, I didn't know anybody except my mother as the head of the family, and she was very disciplined, she was very courageous, she was very strict. I thought at times she was far too strict, but I have to say that when I was in a position of having to cope with things such as prison, I was very grateful to her for having brought me up in such a disciplined way. She was exemplary in many ways.

Aung San Suu Kyi9:01

Do you think you take after her?

Aung San Suu Kyi9:03

Not quite. I think I naturally take after my father. Actually, I think my father and I are people who are by nature rather soft, but we learn to toughen ourselves up. And I think she recognized when I was quite young that I tended to be a bit soft, and she made sure that I wouldn't stay that way.

Presenter9:22

What did she tell you you must do and you must not do? What were the rules at home?

Aung San Suu Kyi9:26

One of the very first English words that I remember learning was selfish. My mother condemned selfishness. And then another English word that I learned was wastage. Sh that also she disliked intensely. She would always remind us that Burma was a poor country. She would say, You can eat as much as you like, but whatever you put onto your plate you must finish, because you mustn't waste food in this country where there are many people who do not have enough to eat. So she taught me very early on the meaning of service, public service. Time for some more music, Dorsey. What are we going to hear now? Well, I've chosen the overture to the magic flute because my husband Michael liked it very much, and I like it very much too. This also reminds me very much of my late father-in-law, John Arras, who told me once that he would take me to a performance of the magic flute at Glenborn, but then I came away here in 1988 and he died while I was in the house at Retz, so it never happened.

Presenter11:22

The overture from Mozart's magic flute played there by the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields and conducted by Neville Mariner. I want to take you back now, Dorsou, to your first days in Oxford. You came to England to study politics, philosophy, and economics, and you had spent a good time of your education in India, where your mother was Burmese ambassador. What were your impressions first of all when you came to Oxford? Was it a culture sh?

Aung San Suu Kyi11:44

Not at all, because I'd read so many books in English and about England by English writers that nothing came as a shock to me. I've I found it very

Presenter11:56

Easy to adapt.

Presenter11:57

Now, here's the thing, these were the heady student days of the 60s. I can only guess at what was going on in Oxford in the early 60s. I'm imagining.

Presenter12:05

Um not by you, of course, but a good deal of drinking by other students, a good deal of smoking, a good deal of carousing. Did you get involved in any of that, or were you very well behaved? I was very well behaved.

Aung San Suu Kyi12:15

Yeah.

Presenter12:16

Ah.

Aung San Suu Kyi12:16

Uh

Presenter12:17

I'm not just saying that.

Aung San Suu Kyi12:17

I wasn't even aware of carousing as such. There were a lot of high spirits. And what I was aware of was.

Aung San Suu Kyi12:25

A general sense of happiness, of young people enjoying life.

Presenter12:29

I like that. I can only imagine that you must yourself have made an astonishing impression. I've looked at photographs of you from then. Um you're always a very beautifully turned out, and indeed very beautiful woman, but looking at photographs from those early days at Oxford, you were

Presenter12:45

Like a bond girl. You were an astonishing looking creature. Did you turn heads wherever you went?

Aung San Suu Kyi12:51

Well, I suppose I turned a few heads.

Presenter12:54

You were aware suitably aware of that, were you? Did you enjoy that?

Aung San Suu Kyi12:57

It is difficult not to be aware of that. Um I don't know wh whether I enjoyed it as such. I took it as part of life. I think you do when you're young.

Presenter13:06

Did anybody take you under their wing? Did anybody say, you know, I'm going to protect you from all this attention?

Aung San Suu Kyi13:11

No, not like that. But my first friend I made at St Hughes and who has remained a very good friend to this day was Anne Pastnick Stilter. And she did take me under her wing to a certain extent. She took me to shop at in the covet market, and she was the one who taught me not to buy anything from South Africa.

Presenter13:30

And she went on to become an Oxford Don. She said of your time there that there was only one time.

Aung San Suu Kyi13:32

She said

Presenter13:35

That you ever tried alcohol, and that was in the toilets of the bodily and library. Is she telling the truth?

Aung San Suu Kyi13:38

Is she telling the truth?

Presenter13:41

Absolutely. I just wanted to see what it was like. And what did you think? I didn't think it was very nice. Can you tell me then about the first time that you met the man who was later to become your husband, Michael Arras? What did you think of him?

Presenter13:53

Not much at that

Aung San Suu Kyi13:54

Yeah.

Presenter13:54

Time.

Aung San Suu Kyi13:55

But I liked his mother.

Presenter13:56

Why didn't you think much of this?

Aung San Suu Kyi13:58

Well, I think Michael was trying to show off a bit. I think he was trying to impress me and that didn't go down well.

Presenter14:04

And is it true that that once your courtship had taken place he asked you to marry him many, many times, and you turned him down?

Aung San Suu Kyi14:11

Not that many times. He did mar ask me to marry him a few times. I think a girl has a right to refuse a man a few times.

Presenter14:17

I think you're right. But this is a very impertinent question, but I'm wondering why you turned him down.

Aung San Suu Kyi14:23

I don't think I felt that I really wanted to marry him when I turned him down.

Presenter14:27

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi14:27

Yeah.

Presenter14:27

Yeah. What was it about him that didn't appeal to you? I mean, again, in the photographs, you do make a very handsome couple. He was a good person looking at.

Aung San Suu Kyi14:34

Well, I was looking at an old photograph just a few days ago, and I thought, my goodness, he was handsome.

Presenter14:41

But I don't think I was quite aware of it then. When you eventually then accepted your proposal, once he'd asked a few times, I as I understand it, he was at that point in Bhutan teaching the king's children, is that right?

Aung San Suu Kyi14:52

That's right. I didn't say yes then. I s I said I'd think about it and I went back and uh I consulted a few friends and I sent him a telegram tele telegram to say yes. But actually I went to his mother first to tell her that he'd asked me to marry her and she said please do and she tried to bribe me by wi by presenting me with a little gold pen. I thought if my mother-in-law w likes me so much it's not a bad thing.

Presenter15:17

What did your mother think of the union? Was she happy with you marrying somebody who wasn't buried?

Aung San Suu Kyi15:21

Well she was not happy with me marrying somebody who was not Burmese, but she grew very, very fond of Michael.

Presenter15:28

I saw Michael say on film that and these are I'm quoting directly here, he said that you predicted what would happen to us on the eve of our marriage, that you had this conversation where you said to him, if ever there comes a moment and of course your country had a history of political turmoil.

Presenter15:44

If ever there comes a moment when you are required by your country.

Presenter15:47

To go back, then that is the thing you would choose above all else.

Aung San Suu Kyi15:50

It wasn't a prediction, I was just trying to make him understand that my country would always come first.

Presenter15:56

And do you think he was a a scholar of Tibetan studies, among other things? Do you think that particularly he understood the struggles that your country was going through because he'd seen it and understood it and studied it in another culture?

Aung San Suu Kyi16:11

I don't think it was uh so much that he understood the struggles of uh Burma, but that he understood me. A very good reason to marry someone. Yes.

Presenter16:22

Yeah.

Presenter16:23

Time for some more music then. We're on our third disc. What are we gonna hear in Actosu?

Aung San Suu Kyi16:27

This song was chosen for me by the present Ambassador of Britain, Andy Hain, and his wife, Jane. I asked some of my friends to choose their favourite songs because that's what I want to remember when I'm alone on a desert island. Andy and Jane represent the goodwill shown to us by peoples across the world who wanted so much for our cause to succeed. And Andy chose the song because he thought this is a good augury. Here comes the sun. This is the time when we can all look forward to a better life in Burma.

Speaker 217:01

Darling, it's been a long, lonely way.

Speaker 217:08

Little darling

Speaker 217:10

It feels like years since it's been here.

Speaker 217:16

Here comes the sun.

Speaker 217:19

Here comes the sun I say.

Speaker 217:23

It's alright.

Presenter17:29

That was the Beatles, and Here Comes the Sun.

Presenter17:32

It seems from the outside, Dorsu, as if you've almost lived a life in two parts. And once you were married to Michael, there was this life where you were a devoted young mum, you were supporting him. In the words of one of your friends, he said that when it came to Michael, you seemed to be happy at home ironing his socks. And that sort of in itself conjures up a notion that domestically you were very, very settled.

Presenter17:56

At that time did you have ambitions for yourself?

Aung San Suu Kyi17:59

There was always something else for me anyway. I never thought that domesticity was my whole life. But I think basically I'm adaptable. When I was bringing up my children, I would read books about bringing up children. And when I was a housewife, I would enjoy reading cookbooks. So whatever it is I'm doing, I like to take an interest in it.

Presenter18:23

And I also hear that you you used to throw legendary children's parties for your boys when it was their birthday.

Aung San Suu Kyi18:29

I don't know if they were legendary, but certainly I baked very, very elaborate birthday cakes for them. I remember one because it's a photograph. At that time Alexander was into things military, so I made him a birthday cake in the shape of a tank.

Aung San Suu Kyi18:44

There are some mothers who probably disapprove and say I shouldn't have encouraged such militant tendencies in my sons, but I didn't think it did them any harm.

Presenter18:52

Is it true that on one occasion when you were making duck you got your friends on a rotor with a hair dryer to dry the skin to make it crispy?

Aung San Suu Kyi19:00

Oh, well, this is peaking duck. Yes. I d actually, I didn't make my friends do that. I just trained the hairdryer on the duck.

Presenter19:10

So that denotes a certain sort of particular perfectionism.

Aung San Suu Kyi19:14

I

Presenter19:16

I

Aung San Suu Kyi19:16

I think

Presenter19:16

Uh

Aung San Suu Kyi19:16

So

Presenter19:17

I I tend to be a perfectionist in some ways. There is a tyranny in perfectionism, isn't there? Did Michael ever say, It's fine as it is, it doesn't have to be perfect?

Aung San Suu Kyi19:27

Yeah. Well, he did say to me once well, more than once, please lower your standards a bit.

Aung San Suu Kyi19:33

Yeah.

Presenter19:33

Would you take his advice? No, of course not. I mentioned that I was sitting on the flight today and I was looking at of course anybody who who knows you as the world do knows that you always wear these delectable arrangements of flowers very chicly in your hair. You're wearing yellow roses today. Are they roses that you grow yourself?

Speaker 219:40

Uh

Speaker 119:40

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi19:50

No. Some are are roses that we grow in the garden, but of course I have no time for gardening. Actually I'm not a very good gardener. My mother was was the one with the the the green plum.

Presenter20:01

Let's have some more music.

Aung San Suu Kyi20:02

We're going to hear now your fourth of the morning. This is another Burmese song, and this has several meanings for me. I asked my son Alexander, the one with whom I listened to Desert Island Discs many years ago, if he'd like to choose anything, but he said he couldn't think of a particular piece of music. So the song I've chosen is one that was sung by the person I would like to think of as my second mother, and of whom Alexander was very, very fond.

Speaker 120:43

Yeah, you ever

Speaker 121:00

Yeah.

Speaker 221:05

Fine lure sukuya manyabi yo nila ya nu bimwe de fawwe yi o fany loud sukuya manyabi yo nilaya nu bimwe de fawe yi ye nuero fan ye nyaraway yi kume poi yena vime bangale bona legi nawe a neno yi.

Speaker 121:11

I don't know if it's a good idea.

Presenter21:38

Sung by Billa Pian Tan That Was Graceful Flower

Presenter21:43

I want to take you back now to march the thirty first. It's nineteen eighty eight, and you received the sort of call that you've said many women receive. You were told that your mother had had a very severe stroke and that you needed to go back home to help to look after her. Unlike many other people though, your journey was set against this prominent role of your late father in the country.

Presenter22:04

the country that had endured around about thirty years of military rule. There was a great amount of unrest at the time. I'm wondering, as you travelled back, how much that setting was at the forefront of your mind?

Aung San Suu Kyi22:16

I think I was simply thinking about my mother's health at that time because the stroke was a severe one and I wondered what the consequences were going to be. I knew of course that there had been a lot of unrest in the country. But once I was back and I spent my days and nights at the hospital with her, I became more and more aware of all the restlessness that was going on around me. I received news all the time that there were all kinds of political developments and then of course a demonstration started and then the movement grew and grew and grew. And I think by well by August I think most of us realized that this was going to be a life-changing situation to the country as a whole.

Presenter23:01

I want to ask you then about the first public speech that you made at the Shwedegong Pagoda. Reports vary that it was in front of between half a million and a million people who gathered that day to hear you speak.

Presenter23:14

It is the case, isn't it, that Michael and your sons had to almost smuggle you through the crowd to get you to the stage. Why was that?

Aung San Suu Kyi23:20

It's not just Michael and my son smuggling me through it. It took us such a long time getting from the house to the Schwedegumbogode and onto the stage through all the crowds that it was a great relief simply to get there. There were so many practical things to think about. The sound system was very poor, so how do I make all these people hear what I was trying to say? Basically, I'm quite down to earth. As you spoke to the crowds on that very important day, what was your central message? That this was our second struggle for independence. The first struggle was to free our country from colonial rule, but this second struggle was to free our people from authoritarian government. I prepared that whole speech myself because I thought the honest thing to do would be to say what I really felt so that the people could judge for themselves what kind of a person I was and whether or not they were prepared to work with me.

Presenter24:13

And the judgment they made very much was that they were. Did you feel the weight of that responsibility? Did it feel heavy on your shoulders?

Aung San Suu Kyi24:22

No, I've never felt responsibility to be a weight because I've always felt responsibility to be perfectly natural. That was part of my mother's upbringing, that responsibility is a natural and normal part of life.

Presenter24:36

Time for some music, Dosu. What are we going to hear now? Your fifth of the morning.

Aung San Suu Kyi24:39

This is the only bit of music I've ch chosen just for myself. This is Packabil's canon because for me it represents both tranquillity and resilience. It reminds me of my days under house arrest when I played it very often on the piano. I found it very soothing and as I played the piano very badly, it was a change for me to be able to play something not too badly.

Presenter25:59

Pachebel's cannon, played by the Berlin Philharmonic and conducted by Herbert von Carrigan.

Presenter26:05

So having launched yourself then on the political stage and formed with your supporters the NLD, the National League for Democracy, you began to campaign for elections that were coming in 1990, but before the elections themselves took place, many of your supporters were thrown into jail and you yourself were put under house arrest. Thinking about that time, of course you had no freedom. The only freedom you had was the freedom to think. What did you think about that situation in 1990?

Aung San Suu Kyi26:34

The first thing that I I thought was how how very quickly I adjusted to house arrest. This is a a nice surprise. I didn't feel it a burden at all. I realized then immediately that I was perfectly capable of living alone. And that strengthened me tremendously because I knew that I would be able to face what what lay ahead.

Presenter26:55

Uh

Aung San Suu Kyi26:55

What about communicating with your family back home?

Aung San Suu Kyi26:58

First we did exchange letters, but they censored all our letters and I didn't like that. And I had problems with my how shall I put it, with my security personnel. And so we stopped communicating.

Presenter27:10

Right.

Presenter27:13

Prior to your house arrest, Orsu, on one occasion you faced down the guns of the army. You walked among soldiers who'd been given the instruction to shoot to kill. I wonder what it was that gave you the nerve and the courage to do that?

Aung San Suu Kyi27:27

I'm a very practical person, and uh the captain who was threatening to shoot us down said that he would shoot if we didn't move away from the centre of the road. So I thought, Well, no point in getting shot down simply because I wanted to keep to the centre of the road, so we moved to the side. But then he said, Well, we he's going to shoot anyway, so I thought we'd better move back. There didn't seem any point in sticking to the side of the road when we were going to get get shot anyway.

Aung San Suu Kyi27:51

And then a young major came running up from the back and he put a stop to all this nonsense. But we had to go through the line of soldiers, and most of them looked very unhappy. Many of them their hands were shaking. I don't think they particularly wanted to shoot us down.

Presenter28:08

There was another point in 2003 where you were again campaigning and as I understand it, your car and your entourage was surrounded by a mob of a couple of thousand people. Many of your supporters were killed on that day, upwards of seventy people. And you yourself insisted at one point to the driver that he should not pull away from the crowd and that you would stay where your supporters and where your people were. That would not be most people's instinct.

Aung San Suu Kyi28:33

Well, I would I would like to put the record straight. First of all, I don't think there were thousands surrounding our cars and trying to beat us down. People have said seventy died, but we have never been able to get this confirmed. I think fewer died. But well, yes, I said that I wouldn't go away and leave everybody else to be beaten.

Presenter28:54

By any one's estimation, it was a very perilous situation there that you found yourself in. Do you know fear? Do you feel fear?

Aung San Suu Kyi29:00

I do feel fear, but there are times when you can't think about fear because there are other things to think about.

Aung San Suu Kyi29:07

I used to be terribly frightened of the dark. I had to train myself to get over that.

Aung San Suu Kyi29:12

I was a very cowardly child. I told you that was why my mother thought she had to toughen me up because I was soft of the core. But where do the reserves come from? Where is that strength from? Well, I would say my upbringing most of all. And of course, my Buddhist philosophy, my Buddhist faith as well. Of course, I read a lot about people who are inspiring, people who could help me with my tasks: Gandhi, Nehru, Vatklav Havel. But at the same time, I would re-read Jane Austen and get a lot out of that simply through the beauty of the language and also meditation.

Aung San Suu Kyi29:47

because meditation taught me awareness. I never used to meditate before I was placed under house arrest, but once I was placed under house arrest, I started meditating primarily to strengthen me for whatever lay ahead. And it has been a great help because

Aung San Suu Kyi30:06

Constant meditation does

Aung San Suu Kyi30:09

heighten your awareness. You're aware when you're getting angry, for example, so you know that you have to start controlling yourself. And you're aware of the reactions of other people. And this is a is a is a great help in coping with what most politicians have to cope with.

Presenter30:25

Yes, I am immediately thinking of the moment then when you walk into the Parliament building and you are surrounded by all of those generals who over the years

Aung San Suu Kyi30:27

Of the m

Presenter30:34

have been responsible for so much of the punishment that has been meted out to you and your fellow supporters. And to look at those pictures, it's a woman with grace and serenity and dignity who is able to walk in there

Presenter30:47

Apparently without any rancor or ill feeling towards the men that surround her. Is is that simply a carapace, or is that genuinely how you feel? Uh

Aung San Suu Kyi30:55

It's genuine. I'm fond of the army. People don't like me for saying that. There are many who have criticised me for being what they call a poster girl for the army. Very flattering to be seen as a poster girl or for anything at this time of life. But I think the truth is that I am very fond of the army because I always thought of it as my father's army.

Presenter31:19

You will be aware of

Aung San Suu Kyi31:20

What's the

Presenter31:20

But that is a very controversial

Aung San Suu Kyi31:21

Uh

Presenter31:22

Actual thing for you to see that.

Aung San Suu Kyi31:23

Yeah.

Presenter31:23

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi31:24

People criticise me for saying that, but I s I have to say this is the truth. I am fond of the army. This is something that is entrenched in my being. I was taught that my father was the father of the army, and that all soldiers were his sons, and therefore they were part of my family.

Presenter31:24

Yeah.

Presenter31:41

But the atrocities that have been meted out by the Burmese military to the people not just torture, but the use of child soldiers as young as eleven, rape as a weapon of war, you will be familiar with all of these appalling things that have taken place

Aung San Suu Kyi31:53

Of course, and it's terrible what they've done, and I don't like what they've done at all.

Presenter31:53

Of course.

Aung San Suu Kyi31:58

But if you love somebody, I think you love her or him in spite of and not because of, and you always look forward to a time when they will be able to redeem themselves.

Presenter32:11

Are you aware, I wonder, as you sit next to these generals who are MPs of their own discomfort? D does your forgiving nature and the fact that you are comfortable looking them in the eye and shaking their hand make them uncomfortable?

Presenter32:24

Well, they don't actually spend a lot of

Aung San Suu Kyi32:25

I wish they did.

Aung San Suu Kyi32:29

But perhaps they do feel a little uncomfortable with me, perhaps because they're told not to be too chummy. But I don't feel uncomfortable with them. Time for some music. What's next?

Aung San Suu Kyi32:40

Well the next is a piece of music which I've never heard before. I don't even know what it is like and I'm not sure whether I'm going to like it or not. This is a first for Desert Island Discs.

Presenter32:49

But

Aung San Suu Kyi32:49

I'm surprised. Don't people ever choose something they've never heard before? They never do.

Presenter32:49

Well, I'm

Aung San Suu Kyi32:53

Well, I've chosen this for my personal assistant, Doctor Tim Ah, and I asked her which piece of music she'd like to choose, and she said the green, green grass of home. I'd never heard of it. And she explained to me that when she was working as a doctor in England, it used to remind her of Burma. And I hope I like it.

Speaker 133:13

I like it.

Speaker 133:22

Smiling sweetly

Speaker 133:25

It's good to touch the green, green grass of home.

Speaker 133:35

The old house

Speaker 133:37

But

Presenter33:37

The Green Green Grass of Home with Tom Jones.

Aung San Suu Kyi33:42

I like it. There's nothing wrong with loving one's home and family and feeling sentimental about it.

Presenter33:42

Do you think that's

Presenter33:49

Nelson Mandela once said that imprisonment is often harder on the family than the internee. Do do you think he had a point?

Aung San Suu Kyi33:56

Yeah.

Presenter33:56

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi33:56

I think so, because especially for my colleagues who were in prison in Burma, because conditions in Burmese prisons are very, very bad. You have to take food to them, you have to take medicine to them, you have to make trips out to these prisons because the government adopted this this deliberately cruel policy of sending prisoners away from their home towns. So it was difficult for the families to visit them regularly.

Presenter34:23

In all the interviews that I've watched and read with you, I've never once seen you lose your temper. But once you came quite close to it, when somebody asked you about what they called the tragedy of your personal circumstances, and you said very firmly, I do not see it as a tragedy. I see it as a choice. That choice, of course, being between staying with your countrymen and witnessing their suffering and trying to improve their circumstances, or travelling back to be with your family. Can you tell me more about that choice?

Aung San Suu Kyi34:51

I'm not terribly fond of melodrama, and I think that when people have chosen a certain path and they should walk it with satisfaction and with determination and not try to make it appear as a tremendous sacrifice, I think then it's like asking for something back, saying, Here I am making this sacrifice, and I don't think you should do it. Whatever you do out of your own free will, that should be a gift that you give to life or to those whom you love.

Presenter35:22

And what about the metaphor you used there of of walking? Because, of course, when we walk, we progress. There must surely have been plenty times over those years of house arrest when you felt that little progress was being made by you and your party.

Aung San Suu Kyi35:36

No, no, you're always walking you're always walking. You never can stay still in this life you're always moving. And the movement may be intellectual, mental, spiritual, rather than physical, but the movement is always there.

Presenter35:51

I want to ask you, if I may, about the the point at which your husband Michael was was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He applied for a visa many, many times, over thirty times, I have read, to come and see you.

Presenter36:03

You were told by the military leaders that you were free at any time. They would bring a car to your door and allow you to go to the airport to visit him. Explain more to us about why you made the choice not to go.

Aung San Suu Kyi36:18

It was not even a choice I had to make. The answers are as clear. And it was much less dramatic than what you you've described. My liaison officer was sent to me and he explained to me that they would not give Michael a visa because they did not think that it would be appropriate for him to come at a time like that when he could so easily get into a very serious state while he was in Burma. But that, of course, if I wished to, I could go. So I simply said, No, I'm not going, and I stood up, so he knew it was time to leave, and he left.

Presenter36:53

Did you only have that conversation once with them?

Aung San Suu Kyi36:55

Yes, he he knew that once I had said no, it was no.

Presenter37:00

Did you properly have the opportunity to say goodbye to Michael Summerhow?

Aung San Suu Kyi37:05

Yeah.

Presenter37:05

I spoke Tom Uh

Aung San Suu Kyi37:05

a number of times on the telephone.

Presenter37:08

And he always, even under those circumstances, understood the choice he would make.

Aung San Suu Kyi37:11

Very much so. Very much so. He never once reproached me.

Presenter37:15

Let's have some more music then. What are we going to hear now?

Aung San Suu Kyi37:18

This is the Lago von Bervojak's New World Symphony, and I first heard it, of course, appropriately in New York. The reason why I chose it is because it reminds me of all those people in the States and elsewhere who helped us in our cause for democracy. And also it reminds me of the United Nations. And while there are many things that you can criticize about the United Nations, and I'm one of its strongest critics, the very fact that the world wanted a United Nations is a good sign.

Presenter38:51

That was Largo from Dvorak's New World Symphony played by the Cleveland Orchestra and conducted by Christoph von Dochnani.

Presenter38:59

So, Do Ang Saint Suji, the world is aware, of course, that in recent months interethnic violence has flared yet again in Burma. You have faced criticism within your own country and beyond for being apparently unwilling to take sides in the dispute. How are you finding the reality of day-to-day politics? Because it can be a mucky old business.

Aung San Suu Kyi39:20

I've always known that. Don't forget my father was a politician and his assassination was arranged by another politician. So I've never had illusions about politics. I didn't come into politics to be popular. Now, if I were to take sides in the situation, for example, in the Rakhine to which I think you're referring, it would create more animosity between the two communities. Violence has been committed by both sides. People who are afraid of being burned in their beds are not going to talk to one another and try to find a way out of the situation. So I've been saying all along what we need is security.

Speaker 239:38

Very.

Speaker 139:38

Uh

Presenter39:54

And rule of law. We know, of course, that the next elections then are due to be held in your country in 2015. What do you hope from them?

Aung San Suu Kyi40:01

I would hope that by twenty fifteen we would have built up a solid foundation of a democratic society, but I think we need a lot of progress before twenty fifteen, if twenty fifteen is to turn out to be the kind of year for which we all hope.

Presenter40:19

And of course you yourself would hope to be president, you would hope to lead your colour.

Aung San Suu Kyi40:21

I'm sorry.

Presenter40:22

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi40:22

I would like to be President. That way I can do what I think would be best for the country. Now people always like to be very, very modest and say, well, I don't particularly want to be the President, but if the people want me I think that's a lot of nonsense. If you're a politician and you're the leader of a party, then you should want

Aung San Suu Kyi40:43

to get government power in your hands, that you may be able to work out all these ideas and visions that you've harbored so long for your country.

Presenter40:52

How refreshing. I've interviewed many politicians over the years. It's the first time I've ever heard anybody be so honest. What do you think that most of them would say? I certainly do think that, but none of them are willing to say it in front of a live microphone. No. A leader, of course, then, but let's not forget a mother too. What do you hope for your sons in the future?

Aung San Suu Kyi41:03

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi41:11

They must decide for themselves what kind of lives they want, and I hope that they will be able to shape their lives in accordance with their hopes.

Presenter41:21

I mentioned a while back the speech in nineteen eighty eight at Shwedegon Pagoda where you said, I am my father's daughter and this is no time to think of oneself. Do you ever take the time to wonder what your father might make of you in the life that you've lived to date?

Aung San Suu Kyi41:36

Yes, I've thought of my father very often during those years.

Aung San Suu Kyi41:41

And um

Presenter41:43

Uh

Aung San Suu Kyi41:43

Think you would have approved.

Aung San Suu Kyi41:44

Yeah.

Presenter41:44

Let's have your final piece of music then to see what we're going to hear.

Aung San Suu Kyi41:47

The final one is Imagine, sung by John Lennon, and this was chosen by my younger son Kim. I asked him which if there were a piece of music that he would like to be played on Desert Island discs and this is the one he has chosen. By the way, I must mention that Kim has tried to educate me musically and made me learn to appreciate Bob Marley and The Grateful Dead and many others of whom I'd never heard before.

Speaker 242:15

You may say I'm a dreamer

Speaker 242:21

But I'm not the only one.

Speaker 242:27

I hope so.

Speaker 142:28

Someday you'll join

Presenter42:40

Imagine from John Lennon. So, Darsu, we come to the point then when I offer you the books. Each castaway is given uh the Bible, uh, which I know you're happy to take, and the complete works of Shakespeare, and to take another book along, too. What else would you like?

Aung San Suu Kyi42:54

I would like to take the Buddha's Abhidhamma, but I must mention why I am quite happy to take the Bible. My grandfather's a converted Christian.

Presenter42:59

Yeah.

Aung San Suu Kyi43:02

And he was one of the most loving people I've ever met. When I was about eleven his eyesight started failing, and so I would have to read the Bible to him every evening, and it would remind me of him. And besides, I like the language of the Bible. And of course the Abhidhamma is, I would say, the compendium of Buddhist philosophy. And this I would like to study in greater depth and it would on a desert island I would have a lot of time to

Presenter43:31

do that. You would. Those books are yours then. Now we allow every castaway a luxury, something that's not necessarily useful, but that makes life a little more bearable on this island. What would you like to take as your luxury?

Aung San Suu Kyi43:43

My goodness, luxuries are not something I indulge in. A pot of roses? Yes. A never ending supply. Any particular rose that you'd like?

Presenter43:48

Yeah.

Presenter43:50

Okay.

Aung San Suu Kyi43:52

I would like the kind of rose plant that changes its colours every day. So I have a different.

Presenter43:56

So I have different coloured roses for each day that I'm on the Desert Island. I shall endeavour to find you such a rose bush. And if I were to ask you to save just one of these eight discs from the waves, which one would you save? I would save the one about my father. It's yours. Thank you. Ang San Suu Ki, thank you very much for having us here in your home in Nebato and letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Aung San Suu Kyi44:00

I swear.

Aung San Suu Kyi44:19

Thank you. It is a pleasure to talk to you and to imagine that I'm with my rose bush on this island.

Presenter44:30

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter44:33

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.