Dawn French

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Dawn French. If you like funny, then you like her. Double act partner, sitcom star, sketch show performer, writer, actress, it doesn't seem to matter how she makes us laugh.

Presenter0:47

She just does.

Presenter0:48

Her career started way back when dungarees were considered a legitimate fashion choice, and she's built her reputation on border line surreal skits and glowingly warm characterisations.

Presenter1:00

She was brought up in a Forces family and had to move schools a lot. Making people laugh helped to make them her friends. Since then it's made her a household name and if she's not very careful indeed, she may be moments away from being given the queasy-making status of national treasure. So does she ever feel overwhelmed by people's expectations? Well, she says, I tell myself that I'm the sort of person who can open a one-woman play in the West End, so I do. I tell myself I am the sort of person who writes a book, so I do. People and I'm thinking of, you know, everybody you come into contact with, Cabbies, shop assistants, me, we all want Dawn French to be funny for us. That must be a constant and daily pressure when you're just going about your business.

Dawn French1:43

I guess it is, but on the other hand, it's the best fun you can have.

Dawn French1:49

with your clothes on, and actually even with your clothes off, laughing, isn't it? And it's the glue that has bound my family, certainly the family I grew up in, and the family I've raised.

Presenter2:00

You said in your memoir, Dear Fatty, that as a child you were excrably polite and monstrously mindful of others. Is that still true of you?

Dawn French2:07

But here

Dawn French2:09

Yes, although I think as I get older I am less tolerant, sadly. But I haven't got enough time any more to put up with people's nonsense. But I'll give everyone a a long leash.

Presenter2:18

So is your comedy the place where you're allowed to be the naughty girl? I mean, literally, and I've been in audiences at your stand up and I've watched lots of your shows, and you hear people sort of screaming because they can't believe you've just said what you've said. And I can't say the sort of things on Existence Radio Four of.

Dawn French2:31

Yeah, I think it's being badly behaved. It's everything that I was told in my childhood not to show off, not to be the attention seeker. There's just a moment in some of the work that I've done, especially with Jennifer, where that's exactly what we have to do. We're just misbehaving with each other. We're just doing whatever it takes to make that other woman laugh.

Presenter2:53

The very liberating thing to watch as a woman was to watch two women who had great physical self confidence, who were not afraid to show you their slightly big bums, who actually were saying, This is all part of it and we like it.

Dawn French3:06

Yeah. Well, I remember we were once described as running to fat, both of us.

Dawn French3:12

So we refer to each other as that very often. But the point was, these are the bodies we've got, these are the bodies that suit our comedy. And if it took being ugly to get a laugh out of Jennifer, I'd do it. I'll blow myself up if it will make her laugh.

Presenter3:28

Your list of eight for today, how difficult was it to compile the list?

Dawn French3:30

It was agony, Kirsty, but I have chosen.

Presenter3:34

Tell us about your first then. What is it and why have you chosen it, Don?

Dawn French3:38

I've chosen Bring Me Sunshine with Morecambe and Wise because that's exactly what they did and because of my profound and enduring love for Eric Morecombe, who made my entire family laugh so much, so often and just brought proper sunshine into our lives.

Speaker 44:00

Bring me sunshine.

Speaker 44:02

Ain't yo smile.

Speaker 44:06

Bring me laughter.

Speaker 44:08

All the while.

Speaker 44:11

In this world where we live, there should be more happiness, so much joy you can give to each brand new bright tomorrow. Make me happy.

Speaker 44:25

Mikeyard

Presenter4:25

Thank you, Eric Morecombe. That was Morecambe and Wise and Bring Me Sunshine, of course. You wrote your memoir, Dawn French, back in two thousand eight, Dear Fatty, it was called, and since then you've written two novels. Do you find it easier to write prose than you did to write comedy?'Cause I always got the impression that it was something of a struggle for you to sit down and write comedy.

Dawn French4:41

Yes, it was a struggle in as much as I'm easily distracted. If I'm writing with Jennifer, there's a lot of fun to be had. And it's a different kind of writing. And it's improvising and stomping about a lot. If I'm writing a book, it's me alone in a room with a desk and a dog. And who knew that I was going to find it such a joy? It's like having a new lover. I can't believe I've waited this long. Does it come very easily to you then? Do you find it literally sort of flowing out of your fingertips? Some moments I do. And some moments I have slightly spooky times with it where I write sentences that I didn't even know I knew those words.

Dawn French5:21

Without the aid of the thesaurus. Um I have not yet progressed to a computer. I write everything longhand. Why is that? I don't for anything. Well, actually, I I'm lying a bit because somebody did give me one of the little tablets, an iPad thing, and I know how to go on the goggle.

Presenter5:30

For anything.

Speaker 45:37

Uh

Presenter5:37

Uh

Dawn French5:40

If I have to. I like the paper. I like a pencil and with a rubber on top of it. I like the smell of the pencil. I do have an electric pencil sharpener. Don't go thinking that I'm not in this century, please.

Presenter5:54

We don't have time, I'm afraid, to cover every single part of your very wide ranging career, but it surely we must give some time to the Vicar of Dibley. It was much loved, of course, created especially for you by Richard Curtis. Here's the thing. I read that you actually wanted the part of Alice, who's the

Dawn French6:10

Virgil, is that right? I did, because when Richard showed me the part or explained it to me, I thought how on earth do you play a central character who's so blimming good? I thought well where are the flaws? Where is the monster in this woman? That's what I understand comedy to be. However, Alice was a very funny character from the off. But anyway, he wouldn't let me play it and he did tease me by telling me the availability of other much better actors.

Dawn French6:38

Who were who could play it at the drop of a hat?

Presenter6:40

A lot of the comedy in that character came from her physical lack of skill. The most vivid image for me, of course, was the the country lane scene where you step in a puddle and you yes, and beyond. Is it true you did a wee in that puddle one?

Dawn French6:51

Right onto my middle.

Dawn French6:55

I did, I did. And you would actually if you'd gone in it because it was slightly warm, which you can't resist. And also it was a wee of slight delight and relief.

Dawn French7:06

Delight that that shot was over and done with, and relief that I hadn't broken my leg. Some more music.

Presenter7:10

Why have you chosen this one, Don Trev?

Dawn French7:12

Bench.

Dawn French7:12

Well this one is Alison Moyer, who is a very very close friend of mine. She is a true confidante. She has heard everything I've had to say over the years, all the nonsense and everything else. And she's French. Uh her dad is French and this is her singing in French and I find it incredibly moving.

Speaker 47:34

Number kit pawn.

Speaker 47:37

I faut toublier, tour, pausoublier.

Speaker 47:42

Quisant foul de jeans.

Speaker 47:47

Les mal entre du et le tent per dien.

Speaker 47:52

A savoir, command.

Speaker 47:54

Oubli Caisaire qui du et parfoi.

Speaker 47:58

Akuda.

Presenter7:59

Yeah.

Speaker 48:01

Yeah.

Presenter8:01

Yeah.

Presenter8:03

That was your friend, Dawn French. That was Alison Moyer singing Nema Keet Pa. Um let's look back then. You were born on Anglesey. There is a wonderful picture of you and your brother and your mum and dad all looking very, very spic and span, meeting the Queen Mother. Yes.

Dawn French8:18

Yeah.

Presenter8:18

What do you remember about that?

Dawn French8:19

Although that wasn't in Anglesey, actually, that was another posting in Leconfield, RAF Leconfield in Yorkshire.

Presenter8:21

Right.

Dawn French8:25

That was a very special day because

Dawn French8:29

We were chosen, I think, as a kind of safe option, a nice ordinary family, because when the royals visit any kind of military base, of course, they go and see the officers. And we were the oiks down the other end. My mum cleaned our house for about six weeks. We had new shoes, little tartan skirt, we did curtseying practice, we bought new china, and for some reason I absolutely expected A for her to arrive on a unicorn and B wearing a crown please. Not unreasonable. Not unreasonable exactly, but came in a sort of lilac hat. What was she thinking?

Dawn French9:06

So I was very disappointed, and then as she approached, no word of a lie, she smiled, and she had black teeth.

Dawn French9:14

Now when you're four, people with black teeth are evil, witches or something. Uh so, you know, no unicorn, no crown, black teeth, please leave now.

Dawn French9:25

So I was terrified, didn't want her in our house, was hiding behind my dad's legs. In fact, I was clinging to my dad's leg like a Randy Terrier. Did you get a tea?

Presenter9:33

Did you get it ticking off after

Dawn French9:34

Uh no, well, I just was completely silent. But I was dumbstruck.

Presenter9:38

Um, you say that uh you were the oix down the other end of the base. Just what was your what was your dad's position in the military?

Dawn French9:44

He was in the RAF. He became a sergeant. He refused a commission. And I think that says a lot about him and about my family, actually. Very aware of class and how we don't really belong in that other class. I think we were a working class family, but my parents were so determined that we would lift ourselves out of the working class that they had all sorts of pretensions, really. Well-meaning. But they sent us to public school, for instance, which the RAF paid a certain amount of. But my mum was delighted that that would be the case. And my mum decided to come to speech days with a special hat on with a buckle on the front and speak in a posh voice. You did have a pony as well, didn't you? I had a pony, but I didn't have the kind of pony that enters Jim Carners. I had a pony that had a disease called sweet itch, which meant that every spring all of its mane and all of its tail fell out and it was just covered with scabs.

Presenter10:41

You say it wasn't a sort of Jim Carner pony, but you did

Dawn French10:44

Yeah.

Presenter10:44

And

Dawn French10:44

I did try Jim Carners, but I wasn't suitable, the horse wasn't suitable. And I did have uh one moment when I was doing a race on this particular horse, and bear in mind my dad had made the girth, I think, out of an old tyre.

Presenter10:44

I did

Dawn French10:56

and as we were bobbing along I started to slip round and round and round till eventually I was riding the horse upside down.

Dawn French11:03

And that's not right.

Presenter11:05

And you were a child who was having a very middle class education and from a working class background. And when you were at school, did you feel like one of them, or never quite? Never quite.

Dawn French11:14

Never quite. Most of the girls that were there were mun from moneyed families. So if I went to their homes they had beige carpet, that was something I'd never seen, and sinks in the corner of their bedrooms. I'd never seen the like ever. Giddying. Giddying. And they had ponies with hair.

Presenter11:33

Have some more music. Um we're on your third. Tell me about your third. Why have you chosen this?

Dawn French11:38

This song is You've Got a Friend by James Taylor. And the reason I've chosen this is to celebrate my brother. My brother to this day cannot forgive me for claiming that I bought this album. This was the first album that came into our family home. I think I paid the major amount for it, so therefore it should be mine. And it is in my keeping. It's from the album Mudside Slim and we still argue about it now.

Speaker 111:59

The gun.

Dawn French12:05

Uh

Speaker 412:05

You just call up my name.

Speaker 412:11

And you know wherever I am

Speaker 112:13

Ryan

Speaker 412:15

I'll come running.

Speaker 412:18

Oh yeah, babe, to see you again.

Speaker 412:27

With the Spring Sun

Presenter12:28

Um

Presenter12:32

James Taylor, you've got a friend from the album that you bought. Yes, I bought it. Thank you, Gary. And let your brother listen to.

Presenter12:39

Um can you can you remember your first moment on stage?

Dawn French12:42

Rather than being on stage, being a performer inside the family really would have been my first taste of that. And the performers in my family were me and my dad. Everything in our family was done through jokes and humour. There was a lot of sarcasm, teasing. Very rarely would you get a spank, occasionally if you'd really pushed it, but mostly my dad would say, Oh, it seems to be Dawn talking now the loudest. Everybody, turn and look at Dawn because she's got something to say which is more important than everybody else at the moment. You know, it's that kind of sarcasm.

Presenter13:15

So There have been times in your career when you've mined the darker side of life, the darker characters, for the purpose of comedy, and and

Presenter13:23

You had two grandmothers who I I wonder sometimes if they're reference points for you. They were very, very different characters. Tell me a little bit about them.

Dawn French13:28

Yeah.

Dawn French13:30

Well, they were jokingly referred to by me as Good Granny and Evil Granny. Good Granny was Marjorie French, who was tiny and always cooking cakes, taught ballroom dancing, was very loving and smelt lovely and that was her. And then Evil Granny was rather sharp, a bit brusque, a bit of a rogue, certainly stole from me on occasion. Not properly stole from? Well, there was an incident with some pearls where my I was looking to raise some money to go on a holiday and I didn't have quite enough. So my mum went up in the loft and brought down some pearls. She gave them to me.

Dawn French14:08

As an exercise, really, to teach me to go into the Pannia market and to sell them. So I went into the market, ready to barter, and on the way in, I met Lil who said, What are you doing here? And I said, Well, I've got to sell these pearls. And she said, What do you need? How much do you need? And maybe I said £30 or something like that. And she went, Right, leave it to me. And off she went. She came back to the cafe and she said, Right, done. And she counted out the tenors: 10, 20, 30, 40. And I was delighted. And when I got home, my mum said, Okay, you've got £40. Who did you actually sell the pearls to in the end? I said, Well, I met Lil. And she went, Right. Did Lil sell them for you? And I said, Yeah. She said, Right. We went, got in the car, round to Lil's.

Speaker 114:46

We like

Dawn French14:48

And she said give her the rest of the money now.

Dawn French14:52

So Bill counted it out forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, a hundred, a hundred something like a hundred and twenty quid.

Dawn French15:00

But the way L Isle saw it was, I benefited, she benefited, everyone wins. That's the kind of woman she was. And did you find it hilarious, or did you find it to start? I was shocked. And I always, you know, had my guard up around L Isle. On the other hand, I had some of the best fun I've ever had with L Isle.

Presenter15:09

That was shock.

Presenter15:18

Some more music then, Don French. Um we are on your fourth. What are you gonna ch?

Dawn French15:22

This is Louis Prima, and it's Louis Prima with Keely Smith actually. And I love Louis Prima and this music reminds me of being married to Len and raising Billy. And we often played Louis Prima, especially on a Sunday and dance round the house.

Speaker 415:39

And just a jigglo everywhere I go.

Speaker 415:43

People know the part I'm playing Paid for every dance Selling you tromance Oh what they say And there will come a day

Speaker 415:57

When youth will pass away Lo dun dun dun What will they say about me? When the end comes I know there's just a trickled dose Life goes on without me

Speaker 416:13

I ain't got to buy

Speaker 416:16

Abby

Speaker 416:17

Oh yeah.

Speaker 416:19

No matter just for me, this no matter just for me

Speaker 416:28

And so sad and lonely Sad and lonely, sad and lonely Want some sweet mama Come take a chance with me

Presenter16:39

Louis Prima and Keely Smith and just a gigolo I Ain't Got No Buddy You Enjoy Palpable Joy, isn't it?

Speaker 416:40

Yeah.

Presenter16:45

I want to take you back to the Central School of Speech and Drama, which was famously where you met your comedy partner, Jennifer Saunders. But I want to ask you specifically, you were nineteen. What do you remember about the first few days when you arrived there?

Dawn French16:51

Uh

Dawn French16:57

Well, my dad had just died, sadly committed suicide, um, about two weeks, I think, before I arrived at the college, and I was late for the start of term. And I was full of grief, obviously, but trying to cover that up, my mother had insisted that I go to college as planned and n that I didn't stay at home.

Presenter17:18

Bank. You've since written incredibly honestly about some of the feelings that you had back then, and and you've said the feelings you had towards your father were How dare you steal our happiness? You lied when you said you'd always be there for me. Very strong things to write down.

Dawn French17:31

Yeah.

Dawn French17:33

Well, I think initially uh there was anger, obviously. Well there was huge sadness and anger. I don't have that anger anymore at all, because I now understand more of the kind of altered state he would be in with such massive depressions that he'd lived with ever since he was a young man. I did not know until much later that he his first attempt on his life was when he was sixteen.

Dawn French17:58

And in fact, all credit to him and to my mum that when it did eventually happen, my brother and I were so shocked by it because we had no idea that he lived like that.

Presenter18:08

And how, when he was having a difficult time and finding himself to be depressed, what was your mother saying about it? How was it coped? It must have been coped with somehow. It was.

Dawn French18:17

I I have memories of my dad taking to his bed with me grains. Well, I believe he did actually have me grains, but I think there was a lot else going on. And in fact I looked at some diaries recently and found that my mum had asked for me to come home from school bear in mind I was at a boarding school just to be with my dad because he had a cold.

Dawn French18:38

And I realized that I was there for a week, probably being a bit of a a guardian, a keeper, without me ever knowing that's what my job was.

Presenter18:47

So do you think that your mother always lived with the constant fear that that this week might be the week when your father would write?

Dawn French18:50

Yeah.

Dawn French18:52

Yeah.

Dawn French18:53

I think when he was happy, he was extremely happy. So I think they had great big long spells of time where there wasn't uh a question about it, where they sailed um you know, in fair weather, definitely.

Presenter19:06

How did the family repair then? What w you know, when some I mean, you were very, very close to your dad and obviously he was central to your life when he wasn't there. How did the family structure repair?

Dawn French19:10

The normal.

Dawn French19:12

Yeah.

Dawn French19:16

Uh

Presenter19:16

Adjust it.

Dawn French19:16

Well

Presenter19:16

Well

Dawn French19:16

Interestingly, we were a a square and we became a triangle. That's it. The sides join up and you're still strong.

Presenter19:24

And your mother, then, must have been an incredibly strong person.

Dawn French19:27

Absolutely amazing. I mean, she always has been a strong person. You know, she was a survivor and a coper, and she wouldn't let anybody tell her that there was anything she couldn't do, including recover from that dreadful tragedy.

Presenter19:45

So tell me about this next piece of music, then?

Dawn French19:47

This piece of music is by Etta James, and it's At Last and strangely and typically where my mum was very poorly and knew she was dying, she said to me, Uh Well, it's win win, isn't it? and I said How on earth can you say that, Mum, you've got terminal lung cancer.

Dawn French20:05

And she said, Well, either I stay here longer with you, or I go and see your Dad.

Dawn French20:09

And she absolutely believed.

Dawn French20:12

That's what she'd do.

Dawn French20:14

So we played this.

Dawn French20:16

At her funeral.

Dawn French20:18

Because

Dawn French20:19

At last she was with him.

Speaker 420:23

My love has come along.

Speaker 420:38

My lonely days

Speaker 120:38

My lonely day.

Speaker 420:41

All over.

Speaker 420:45

And life is like a song.

Presenter20:46

In light

Presenter20:51

That was at a James and at last chosen by you don't french because it was played recently at your mother's funeral. Yes. Um according to Jennifer Saunders, when she first noticed you in college you were wearing a corduroy skirt.

Presenter21:05

What do you remember about her?

Dawn French21:06

Yes. Um, it was an A line corduroy skirt that's a further offence. I remember that she was very cool, very sophisticated.

Dawn French21:17

quite posh, I thought, and very beautiful, and I think she was sort of out of my league, and she was a little bit lofty. So I just decided that she wouldn't be one of the people that I would get to know. And then we had to share a flat, and that's when I realized that she was so many other things.

Presenter21:36

I wish I'd been in those classes where you had to sort of wrap yourself up in clean film or whatever it was and pretend to be a so-and-so. What were the two of you just perpetually mucking about?

Dawn French21:42

Where the t

Dawn French21:45

It was absurd. The one you're referring to was actually a day when we entered a studio and the whole class were asked to wrap themselves in newspaper with a cellotate. We had to help each other, that was part of it. Then the lights were lowered and we had to be reborn out of our eggs and have no language and learn how to communicate with each other. Well, honestly, from the very start, this was just silly. I couldn't enter into it at all. I did stay in my egg for a very long time because I knew that the minute I came out of it, I'd be out of control with laughter, especially if I caught Jennifer's eye. Which I did, and we were asked to leave the class because we were ruining it for everybody else.

Presenter22:26

So much of your comedy, whether it's you dressing up as the ballerina or the two fat men, was based on your physical size. That was a very funny thing and you played up to that. Yes. You're much, much slimmer now. Did did you worry that you wouldn't have the same ability to to explore those comedy moments in that way?

Dawn French22:44

No, I mean I think if you've got comedy chops you've got it whatever size you are to be honest but however if you've got the gift of a bit of extra heft use it I would say. And also there's something about me controlling what people will laugh at when it comes to my physical shape. I think I'd like to decide what you find funny about my fatness if you like.

Presenter22:49

To be honest.

Speaker 423:07

Yeah.

Dawn French23:07

So for me there's a dignity in that and there's again the mischief and the joy in that. I don't need you to be laughing at the fatness of me in a cruel or bullying way and luckily in my life I've never experienced that. But I know other big women do and I don't like that at all. So I think that I've always wrestled that control into my domain.

Speaker 423:08

Yeah.

Presenter23:32

You've always been a very gorgeous woman, fat or thin, a very, very sexy person. You did a.

Dawn French23:35

Very, very

Presenter23:38

I mean, it's characterized as a a nude photo sheet. It wasn't really nude. You had this very artfully draped bed sheet around it. It was very, very sexy for Esquire.

Speaker 123:45

Yeah.

Dawn French23:46

Well, I did it because I was doing a South Bank show about the aesthetics of fat.

Dawn French23:52

And I wanted lots of other big women to come and show us how great you can look.

Dawn French23:58

With great lighting, with confidence, with great makeup, with great clothes. And of course, nobody would do it. This is how damaged we are. So I had to put my money where my mouth was. And I thought, okay, I'll have a big gin and tonic and I'll get my kit off. I did not expect the photo to be scanned in the sun with a poll for people to ring in and say whether you'd like to do it with me or not, or whether it's sexy or not. What was the poll result? I bet it was a little bit of a drink. I was under the business.

Presenter24:29

I designed it.

Dawn French24:30

I didn't want to look. Um we've gotta fit in the music. Your sixth choice. What is it?

Dawn French24:35

This is Patrick McNee and Onna Blackman singing Kinky Boots, and this is all about Jennifer and me. And we have had this song on our warm up tape for every show we ever did, so I do get a little bit nervous listening to it because I think I'm due on stage.

Speaker 124:51

Everybody's going for those kinky boots, kinky boots.

Speaker 424:55

Kinky Boots, it's a manly kind of fashion that you borrowed from the brutes.

Speaker 124:59

Borrowed from the beach.

Speaker 425:01

Pinky boots, fashion magazines say wear em And you rush to obey like the women in the harem Full length, half leg Fully fashioned dart length Patent leather jazz boots Low boots, high boots Lovely lanky thigh boots We all dig those boots

Presenter25:17

Uh

Speaker 425:17

Uh

Speaker 425:18

Uh Everybody's green.

Presenter25:19

Patrick McNee and Honour Blackman and Pinky Boots. We both really enjoyed that, Dawn French. Now, you and Manny Henry were Britain's sort of Brad Pitt and Jennifer Anniston, weren't you? Yes, you were. I think you were the nation's sweetheart. People thought, we really like that, and we like that it's happened. We like that they're there doing that.

Speaker 125:28

Yeah.

Dawn French25:29

Will you wait?

Dawn French25:34

Yeah, and we

Dawn French25:36

Well

Dawn French25:37

I'm glad they liked it.

Presenter25:38

Because it was growing.

Dawn French25:39

Right.

Presenter25:39

Yeah.

Presenter25:40

That's quite a pressure, isn't it? And it's certainly quite a pressure once after 25 years you decide to be a part.

Dawn French25:45

Yeah, I think one of the reasons why people invested in it a bit is, you know, a black man, a white woman and lots of racism came hurling at us and we tried not to be too bothered about that. But he lived and probably still lives with a certain amount of that at all times. And I've got a mixed race daughter who also lives with a certain amount of it at all times. And it's shocking.

Dawn French26:12

Was it

Presenter26:12

Um well, here's the thing. I was going to say, was it thrilling or terrifying, and maybe it was a bit of both, to f to be single?

Presenter26:21

In your early fifties.

Dawn French26:23

It has been remarkable. Obviously you don't get divorced without a a deal of sadness. But we ended it and gave birth to the next chapter in our lives the right way. It was a tribute to the way we'd been married, the way we ended it.

Presenter26:39

That's a fantastically difficult thing to do. How did you accomplish that?

Dawn French26:42

Um kindness.

Dawn French26:45

That's all I can say. We knew that the marriage was untenable and we were sad about that. And so we hunkered down.

Dawn French26:53

And we went home to Cornwall and we walked on a beach and we drank a lot and we talked a lot. We laughed a lot, oddly. So those last few months of our relationship

Dawn French27:03

We were pretty much like the first few months. We were good friends who decided to take a care.

Dawn French27:10

About how we did this. Plus, we have a daughter who we both love very much, so we wanted this next chapter to be grown up.

Dawn French27:19

And I knew within six months of the the final kind of separation that I was much lighter as a result of it and I kind of started to claim my life back. And I thought, oh God, what happens now? Do I do dating? How repulsive. I'll have to buy new pants. And I did do some dating and it was excruciating and difficult. I am not an accomplished flirter. Are you not? No, I'm quite direct. I think that is my form of flirting.

Speaker 127:50

No.

Dawn French27:54

Is I will give somebody an application form and say tick these boxes. Do you want to see out summer pants, in summer pants? Out summer bra, in summer bra, upstairs, downstairs.

Dawn French28:04

I'd rather get it all on the table and then get on with the fun. And that's not very romantic, is it? No, it's not.

Dawn French28:11

And then I had a glorious day when I was walking my dog and it was a particularly beautiful day and I live in Cornwall by the sea and that made it extra shiny. And I thought, oh, look at this lovely day. Look at this lovely dog. Oh, look at my lovely life. Oh, my goodness. My daughter is happy. Len is happy. My mum at that point was still well. Everything's a bit great. And I've got the work that I want to do more than anything else. I'm writing here in Cornwall. And actually, I don't need a bloke. I don't need a bloke to be happy. I don't need to vicariously live through anybody else to feel strong and to feel.

Dawn French28:51

Any kind of proper joy, I feel joyful now. And I knew it, and it was like a big epiphany for me. And of course then, bang!

Dawn French29:01

I met somebody else. But I honestly don't believe that I would have been in the right frame of mind to meet him if I.

Dawn French29:10

If I hadn't gone through that process.

Presenter29:13

And on that note I want to ask you then about this next choice. Tell me about this.

Dawn French29:17

Well, this is the cogto twins as I know them, but it's in fact Liz Fraser singing with this mortal coil, the song to the siren. And I didn't know much about Liz Fraser until my new chap, Mark, brought this song to me. And I knew when I heard the song, it was an offer, if you like.

Speaker 429:39

Cona floating shapeless oceans

Speaker 429:46

I did all my best to smile.

Speaker 429:54

To your mustang eyes, we fingers

Speaker 430:01

Drummond to your eyes

Presenter30:10

That was the Cocteau Twins This Mortal Coil Song to the Siren.

Dawn French30:12

Will Song

Dawn French30:13

Yeah, you would fall in love.

Presenter30:15

Wouldn't you, with somebody whose

Dawn French30:15

Somebody who gave you that.

Presenter30:16

Um so your life in Cornwall now is what walks on the beach and love and happiness and writing? It is.

Dawn French30:22

It is.

Presenter30:23

Cooking?

Dawn French30:23

And uh yeah, writing. I I come up to London every now and again to do jobs that I want to do, but my life is there.

Dawn French30:31

Grinem

Dawn French30:34

Life together, is it?

Presenter30:34

I

Presenter30:35

Yeah.

Dawn French30:36

I think so.

Presenter30:36

I hope so.

Presenter30:37

Um you once wrote that your dad's faith in you whilst he was alive had been, and I'm quoting now such a sunshiny warmth that I grew towards it like a tomato plant.

Presenter30:47

What a great phrase. But of course, the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. How is your self-esteem now? Is it intact? Do you.

Dawn French30:55

It is entirely intact actually. And I think the reason it is is because I have made sure that it is. I know that I will make a good life for myself with all sorts of things as my armour, stuff my dad taught me, stuff my mum taught me, stuff my brother's still teaching me, and stuff my new chap is teaching me that I never knew.

Dawn French31:19

A whole other set of stuff that I'm going forward with.

Presenter31:24

Uh what sort of mother are you? You adopted your daughter when she was just three weeks old. Have you taken to the whole thing very easily? Because sometimes I read interviews with you and I think, oof, it sounds like

Dawn French31:27

Yeah

Dawn French31:33

Yeah.

Presenter31:33

Uh

Dawn French31:33

Uh Stop.

Presenter31:34

Uh

Dawn French31:34

I think Uh

Presenter31:34

That's been a bit of a

Dawn French31:35

It certainly has. She is an amazing person who has taught me more than anybody else I know because she's confounded everything I thought about parenthood. Everything I thought I could do well, I do pants, and things I didn't know I could do, I suddenly can do. All I know about it is that I love that kid enormously, which is good because sometimes we don't like each other very much and we have wars that I think mothers and daughters are supposed to have. My theory about this is that if you don't rub up against each other a little bit, the tearing apart when it comes, when they have to move on, would be unbearable. But I am connected to that kid in the most constant and solid way, and I thank God for that because it's a massive, profound blessing in my life.

Presenter32:28

I'm afraid to say we're at the last record. I feel I could do another hour of this. How can it be

Dawn French32:31

How can it

Presenter32:32

Anyway,

Dawn French32:32

We've only been here two minutes.

Presenter32:34

Tell me about your final choice, Dawn.

Dawn French32:36

This is Elbow One Day Like This, which is a massive, wonderful, joyful anthem. And I used to walk every morning to this song and it lifted my heart. And it's also one of those songs in my life that I'm a bit disappointed other people know about it. I thought I owned this song. This is Elbow singing for me for my future.

Speaker 432:59

Waves of waves

Speaker 433:04

Using words I never say

Speaker 433:09

I can only think it must be long

Speaker 433:15

Oh, anyway.

Speaker 433:18

It's looking like a beautiful day.

Presenter33:28

That was Elbow on one day like this. It's time for the books, Dawn. I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare.

Dawn French33:30

I'm not gonna give

Dawn French33:33

I'm glad to have those too.

Presenter33:35

Right.

Dawn French33:37

I would like to take Pocoon by Spike Milligan.

Dawn French33:41

because it's absolutely hilarious. And this book was read to me by my first boyfriend, and it is ludicrous and funny and the genius of Spike Milligan just rings through it.

Presenter33:47

Is

Presenter33:54

Right. Those are your books, then, and your luxury.

Dawn French33:57

I've decided that I will take my daughter's

Dawn French34:01

Teddy who is called Nobby. I will take that Teddy because she won't be happy about it, but it smells of her and I think it would be a really great pillow.

Presenter34:13

When, when? Yeah. One of the eight. If you had to save just one, which one would it be?

Dawn French34:18

I think it would be the Cocteau Twins.

Presenter34:20

Don French, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Dawn French34:25

Thanks for having me.

Presenter34:25

Yeah.

Presenter35:02

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website, bbc. co dot uk slash radio four.