Tidjane Thiam

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the businessman Tijan Thiam. He's chief executive of the Prudential, but don't worry, he's about as far from the archetypal man from the Prue as you can get. He doesn't do boring. The seeds of his success were sown amid the complex political terrain of the Ivory Coast, an extended family heavily involved in politics, and indeed a father imprisoned for his beliefs. His life quickly took on an international flavour. From West Africa to Morocco, Paris to Washington, he has soared through top flight institutions, with a heady cocktail of crystal clear intellect, fizzing ambition, and a healthy dash of charm.

Presenter1:12

All the more interesting given that in his early thirties a coup in his homeland left him high and dry, he says I had no job, no career, nothing at all.

Presenter1:21

It taught me a lot about myself. If you've been in a situation where you have nothing

Presenter1:26

There's nothing much you're afraid of. Now every one of those uh world's most powerful, world's most intellectual lists that kick around, you seem to be either at the top of it or or near the top of it. Do you feel like a powerful man?

Tidjane Thiam1:39

No, no, no, no, no, no. I just have to have a conversation with my children to be brought back to earth and to reality.

Tidjane Thiam1:46

No, I mean I think life is much simpler than that. I I have very simple goals every day. I have a number of tasks to accomplish and that's how I live my life.

Presenter1:51

Boom.

Presenter1:55

You were almost I mean, you were around about the age of thirty when you were in charge of uh a department, a government department, that had four thousand people working for it, and of course by dint of the fact that you were in charge working for you.

Presenter2:07

Are you somebody who who feels comfortable as a leader of people?

Tidjane Thiam2:12

Not really. It's a bit like working on a tight rope because you feel all those expectations around you and it's rarely comfortable. But if you really believe in what it is you're trying to achieve, it helps you go through the journey and walk without looking down. Once you start looking down, you risk falling. And that's the best analogy I can come up with. And you get on that rope again and again, and every time you do it, you feel, well, oof, gosh, I got lucky. I got through. I'm never going to do this again. Until there is something big again that you need to accomplish and

Tidjane Thiam2:46

The feeling comes that you're gonna have to get on that rope again.

Presenter2:49

And you do it. I didn't say in the introduction that you were the first black man in Britain to head up a FTSE One Hundred company. You you get quite cheesed off when people make something of the fact that you're black, do you?

Tidjane Thiam2:59

Um, that's possibly strong. I mean, first of all, it's probably completely by chance that I ended up in this position, that I ended up in this country. When I was approached by a British company and I was working in Paris, I was very cautious. First of all, it's difficult to work in a language that's not yours, so I was very nervous about that. And I frankly came because I really wanted to work for for a man who was my first boss here, Richard Harvey, who used to be chair of the ABI and CEO of Aviva, and and convinced me to to take that step.

Presenter3:28

And was he the person who said to you, when you first came to Britain, you must what was he said, you must listen to the arts.

Tidjane Thiam3:32

Yeah, he told me he he gave me this red book which was uh all the episodes of Yes Minister. And he told me you must read this. He told me you need to listen to the archers, so I did that religiously. And he told me for his scenes that I should listen to Desert Island discs. So here I am now on Desert Island discs.

Presenter3:41

So I

Presenter3:47

Royal.

Presenter3:49

Has it been difficult choosing your eight discs?

Tidjane Thiam3:52

Oh gosh. I think you I think this is cruel, what do you say, an unusual punishment. I I have agonized over the last three weeks.

Presenter3:56

Yeah.

Presenter3:59

So tell me about your first disc then.

Tidjane Thiam4:00

It's Redemption Song by by Bob Marley. This sends me back to the seventies when I was a teenager in high school and the the lines Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, None but ourselves can free our minds This is something I've taught my children and it's something I deeply believe.

Speaker 44:16

Some say it's just a part of it, We've got a fulfilled pool.

Speaker 44:25

Won't you help to sing?

Speaker 44:30

These songs of freedom.

Speaker 44:33

Cause all I ever have.

Speaker 44:38

Redeem John Song.

Speaker 44:42

Devish on the song

Presenter4:47

That was Redemption Song by Bob Meyery. You once said, Dijean Thiam, I am passionate about insurance and you even sounded like you meant it. I mean, most of us find insurance deadly dull. What is it that you find interesting about it?

Tidjane Thiam4:59

Well, I I I know that people find it dull, but I I don't, luckily. I think we perform a very useful function. I think that risk is something we all have to live with, and in simple terms, our mission is to protect you against the main risks of life.

Presenter5:01

Yeah.

Presenter5:17

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam5:18

Uh

Presenter5:18

Yeah.

Presenter5:18

It's interesting that you talk about risk because probably one of the defining moments for you very early on with the prudential was when, well, it was crunch time really, it was March twenty ten. You announced, yes, that you intended to buy the huge. You were going to buy this huge insurance group, AIA. You announced that in March. A lot went on. Let's cut to June and everything falls through and it costs the shareholders at the Prue three hundred seventy seven million pounds sterling. That must have cost you a good deal of soul searching, I imagine.

Tidjane Thiam5:29

You intended to buy the human rights.

Speaker 45:34

Uh

Tidjane Thiam5:34

Group, AIA.

Tidjane Thiam5:40

The money

Tidjane Thiam5:44

Anyway

Tidjane Thiam5:49

It was very difficult. I started with this tightrope analogy. I think that we believed collectively, my broad myself, that what we were trying to achieve was a good thing. That we had a chance to build an amazing company. We knew it would be very, very, very tough. It went beyond anything I could imagine. The storm in which we got caught, the extreme personalization, which was completely a shock to me, because I thought I was just doing a job. I never thought that this would become about me.

Speaker 46:00

Yeah.

Presenter6:06

Hmm.

Presenter6:19

And how did that impact on you?

Tidjane Thiam6:20

Um it's uh it's painful. I mean you try to have a a thick skin. I had a professor in France who who always said um what makes the difference between people in life is not how high they can go, it's how low they can go.

Tidjane Thiam6:33

And he always said, Young men, raise your minimum.

Tidjane Thiam6:36

Because that will define your potential in life.

Tidjane Thiam6:39

But look, we we we learned a lot. Uh did I make mistakes? Yes, certainly. I certainly did. I think I acted in good faith, and I think the company has come out of it stronger, not weaker.

Presenter6:49

You know, what's very interesting though is then to look at of course, one always has to look at something that I think this reasonably could have been called a crisis moment for you personally and for the company, was that you were then voted back in by shareholders by the what was the majority?

Tidjane Thiam6:50

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam7:02

I don't know. Ninety eight, ninety nine percent, I guess.

Presenter7:04

Yes. Okay. So you did feel that they do trust me?

Tidjane Thiam7:07

They understand that there isn't. At a minimum, they don't want me fired yet. I think that's how I.

Presenter7:07

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam7:12

That's the best I can say. Look, I went to that AGM, I can tell you something, people know with two suits because my security said, you know, someone will throw an egg at you or something and you cannot give your speech without so I literally had two suits with me, so I've taken

Presenter7:26

Did you need to change?

Tidjane Thiam7:27

No, I've taken as an indicator of of improvement that I I now I can go to the A JMs with one suit. But more seriously, life will throw challenges at you and it's all about how you handle it.

Presenter7:36

Your back story, it has to be said, is not a typical one for somebody who ends up r running a company like the Prudential. We're going to talk a lot more about it in a second, but for now it's time for your second piece of music, Dijan Thiem. What are we going to hear?

Tidjane Thiam7:48

Okay, this is Ismail Lum. It's a song it's called Tajibun. It goes back really to Africa because I come from two very different traditions. My father is from Senegal and my mother is from a a very different background and much more privileged from the Ivory Coast. And this music is very representative of a music that you get in the north of Senegal. It's very moving. I can explain it. It just resonates with me.

Speaker 38:16

Nita

Speaker 38:17

Tiger Bull

Speaker 38:19

Then he died of gone.

Speaker 38:25

Neptune

Speaker 38:27

Tidable

Speaker 38:29

Do you got the food?

Speaker 38:34

I do

Speaker 38:36

Who young man

Speaker 38:38

Yeah, even like a daughter.

Presenter8:42

Tajou Bon by Ismael Lowe. So, um, the capital of Ivory Coast then. Yam, I'm going to try and say it. Yam.

Tidjane Thiam8:49

Yeah, so cool.

Presenter8:50

Yamosukuro. Yes, right, okay. It's named after your great-grandmother. Um, tell me then, Tishan, uh, how did that come about, and who was your great-grandmother?

Tidjane Thiam8:58

Um we come from a subgroup of the Baoles called the Akwi, the Warriors. So Yamuso was um a queen because it's a matriarchal society.

Presenter9:08

So I read that your mother, as she was growing up, she she had no formal education, she couldn't read and write as she was growing up, but that that was nothing to do with her social standing. Actually it was a terribly proper family, but it was that uh that wasn't considered important for her.

Tidjane Thiam9:14

It was coming up but

Tidjane Thiam9:17

No, no.

Tidjane Thiam9:19

Was that

Tidjane Thiam9:21

No, it wasn't considered important. And also God, this is why a lot of kind of reigning families in Africa completely lost their status, because a lot of them were opposed to a French presence and symbolically couldn't be seen as going to the school of the occupier, if you wish. So it's actually generally people from less privileged backgrounds who actually got educated.

Presenter9:41

Tell me about your mother, then. What was she like?

Tidjane Thiam9:44

Probably the smartest person I've ever met. I would say that on the record any day. She was just pure intelligence. Because she always said, My son, you know you you waste your time I said yes, why? She said, Because, okay, what is the only thing on earth that even if you put it on a stall in the market, nobody would buy? I said, I don't know, mammy. She said, Common sense.

Tidjane Thiam10:02

People who

Tidjane Thiam10:03

don't have common sense, will never enough have enough sense to buy it, and those who have it don't need it. She was a a very brave woman. I mean, she raised seven children, each of us got a Ph D or an equivalent. So she used to joke and say, I have seven Ph D's.

Presenter10:19

So your mother was from this very establishment and relatively wealthy background, your father was not.

Tidjane Thiam10:21

Mm-hmm.

Tidjane Thiam10:23

Good.

Tidjane Thiam10:24

He was not. No, he was not. My father went to school by chance. My grandfather had spent two weeks in jail because he didn't want his son to go to French school. And my grandmother went to see him and begged him to be less stubborn and let his child go because he needed to continue feeding the family. So I always say I think the the journey made by my father is much more extraordinary than anything I have done, to go from Dagana, which is like ten huts, to he got to know Mitterrand and Jimmy Carter and he was dealing with Bucha and Presidents and Isaac Abin. Anything I've done pales in comparison.

Presenter11:01

We shall talk about his journey and how, of course, it is tied up with your own in just a moment, but for now it's time for a little bit more music. What are we going to hear now? Your third of the day?

Tidjane Thiam11:07

Right, we're going to go to Charles Navaux. And it's funny because he's come to epitomize or symbolize French traditional French singing. And he was my mother's favorite singer and she passed away when I was quite young, in 1984, I was twenty-two. And one of the last things we did was to go to a concert of um Esnavu. So here we go.

Speaker 411:27

Uh

Tidjane Thiam11:27

Yeah.

Speaker 411:27

Yes, encore, ja veranton, je querse sell tent, et jouis de la vie.

Speaker 411:34

Come on, jeu de la mour, et je live la nuis, saint contesture majour que fuille en le tent.

Speaker 411:42

J'a faitnd de projé, qui son restend lair, je fond estpoires, qui sus sent volais.

Speaker 411:49

'Kay, dualists.

Speaker 411:53

Les yeu cher chan siel mes le queur misantaire.

Presenter11:57

So, Tijan Tian, you've described the very different backgrounds of your parents. Y your mother was from this well, really very privileged background. Indeed, she she was the niece of the president of the Ivory Coast during your childhood. He was a man called Félix Uffue-Bouignier. And your father

Presenter12:17

Had become a politician, but he was arrested and imprisoned for three years when you were well, you were just fourteen months old then. Can you explain to us?

Presenter12:25

What was it that led to him being arrested?

Tidjane Thiam12:28

Yeah, he was he was Minister for Information. He was a radio journalist, so he was in charge of uh the media, and he was victim of, I think, a plot or trumped up charges fabricated by the head of the security services, who then convinced the President that he and several of his colleagues were plotting to overthrow the the President.

Presenter12:34

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam12:48

And the actuality is that the head of the police was the one plotting and he wanted to make sure that the President would arrest all his most loyal lieutenants. So they end up in the Cabinet room, the same where I sat as a Cabinet member. They were arrested physically in the Cabinet and sent to to jail.

Presenter13:04

Did your father suffer, I'm imagining, prison in the Ivory Coast? He suffered violence, did he? Not.

Tidjane Thiam13:09

Uh

Presenter13:09

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam13:09

directly. Others did, but he was relatively protected and that's a whole other story, but he was relatively protected.

Presenter13:16

Prefer a good story.

Tidjane Thiam13:17

Uh

Tidjane Thiam13:18

Gosh, we're getting into really, really, very intimate things here. But fundamentally, my oldest brother went and when because they would announce every day who was gonna be beaten up and tortured. And when my father's turn came, my oldest brother went and, because we were related to a president, managed to sneak into his bedroom and told him that if I touched my father, he would kill him. And my father was untouched, but that's his turn. So anyway, he got released and um Do you remember the day he came home? Oh very well. Very vividly. My m my mother always explained to me if that there was something going on. But I had a father, she would show me pictures. They had no visitation rights, so we we couldn't see him. I never met him. And I was playing in the yard and the car came and he came out. Oh, he was wearing a black pants and white shirt and he walked up to me and he said, I'm your I'm your dad, which was the start of our relationship. But we had a great relationship.

Presenter13:43

Do you remember the day he came home?

Presenter14:09

Yeah, I can't imagine it was an easy start. And you were very close to your mother. I was very close to my mother.

Tidjane Thiam14:12

I was very close to my mother. He's this man and whom obviously she loves, so I didn't take it. It's very, very addiction. Anyway, so we had our conflict and um I think he beat me up to establish his his authority. It's the only time he ever did. And after that we kind of made up and we would walk because he would go to get Le Monde every day, the French newspaper, and we would walk to the bookshop and we that was a long walk and we always had a really nice chat. So it's it's a nice period of um getting to to know him and um we were very close.

Presenter14:44

As he talked to you and as you went on the morning walks to Bay Le Monde each day, w w can you remember? Y you you related, you know, some of the pearls of wisdom from your mother, but were there things he

Presenter14:54

He said that still stay with you now, you think my father told me.

Tidjane Thiam14:58

Eric Someri believes deeply that really the value of someone is not determined by his birth, but by the sum of his actions. And um he told me something that my grandfather used to say, his father, that a man should live his life in order to have a nice funeral, because the verdict on your life is passed on the day of your funeral. People vote with their feet and the way the community shows their appreciation of you is by showing up or not showing up at your funeral.

Presenter15:24

Let's have some music. What are we going to hear?

Tidjane Thiam15:26

Stevie Wonder, Heaven is ten zillion light years away. It brings me back to my childhood because the thing about having four older brothers and I used to go steal their records and this was one of my favourite songs. So I would listen to this um again and again and again and he's got some interesting lines there. One of which is you know why must my color black make me a lesser man? Uh I thought this world was made for every man.

Speaker 415:50

One must my colour black

Speaker 415:56

Make me a landsom

Speaker 416:01

I thought this world was made.

Speaker 416:07

Forevermen

Speaker 416:10

He loves a song

Speaker 416:15

That's what

Presenter16:16

My God tells me

Presenter16:20

That was Heaven is Ten Zillion Light Years Away by Stevie Wonder there. So, Tijan Thiem, I'm going to move us on a bit in your story, because it is a busy one. You you'd been working for McKinsey in Paris, you'd also worked at uh the World Bank in New York, and then

Presenter16:33

You went into government yourself, as your father had back home in the Ivory Coast. For five years, you were.

Presenter16:39

Very successful. You were a technocrat running a department that took care of the economy, rebuilding the infrastructure of the country.

Presenter16:47

Overseeing public investment.

Presenter16:49

Then in 1999 something very important happened. There was a coup. C can you remember how you heard about that?

Tidjane Thiam16:55

Oh, I had my chief of staff wake me up at four AM and he put up his phone and said, Minister, can you hear? and the sh the shooting I was actually in Paris on my way to the to the States and when I got to the US my wife told me look it's over. There's a general now running the country, the constitution has been suspended, half of the government has been arrested and they're asking for all the ministers to to come back. To cut a long story short, I ended up going back to to the Ivory Coast.

Presenter17:20

Well, that that's a big decision, isn't it? Because there you are safely with uh your wife and your two children in America. You do not have to fly back. And I I think it would be fair to say most people under the circumstances would not have flown back. Why did you make the decision to go back to Ivory Coast?

Tidjane Thiam17:36

I felt in indebted to the people who had um worked with me. My PA had gone during the coup in the middle of the night to my office to stop the rebels from looting my office with their bare hands. So I would have felt pretty lousy if I just said, Look, I have a French passport. I don't need to come back.

Presenter17:54

How did your wife feel about that?

Tidjane Thiam17:55

Ooh, terrible. She thought I was a bit crazy.

Presenter17:58

And indeed you ended up in military detention when you went back.

Tidjane Thiam18:00

Well, I I went back. It was very it's a very confused period. It's funny, I remember when I was walking to the plane, mis Mr Josselin, who was then the French minister in charge of African Affairs, rang me and said, Look, Mr Jam, you don't have to do this. Do you understand we cannot protect you? But I was quite determined in my head that I would just stop that whole cycle and not to work for the military government.

Presenter18:18

Yes. So I've read that at the end of the year two thousand you were back in uh the Ivory Coast and you were invited to be Prime Minister, no less. Uh you turned it down. Why did you say no?

Tidjane Thiam18:31

I'm quite surprised that you know about that, because that's not n really known. There were four people in that meeting, the the then President President Bagbo, his wife, my sister and myself and we had a meeting and he told me that the top six people in his party he had polled them asking who should be Prime Minister and my name had come top and did I want the job and I I turned it down. I told him or less what I told the general. I don't believe in violence in politics and the whole political scene there is led by people who believe that the unjustified means for me life is sacred, absolutely sacred.

Presenter19:06

We've gotta fit the music in. What are we gonna hear?

Tidjane Thiam19:08

Uh we're gonna hear Emily Sunday. I heard her at the closing ceremony of the Olympics, which I think was a a great moment for this country. Probably very British, I was among the sceptics and the grumbling people before the Olympics. Did you think it should have been in Paris? We say in in my village, if your mother and father are arguing about the sleeping mattress, don't take sides because when they make up you're gonna sleep on the ground. So that's my answer to your to your question. So anyway, she was wonderful. She signed, it was a magic moment, I think, at the Olympics, and it's a way to get some of that spirit back.

Presenter19:21

Did you think it should have

Speaker 419:41

Yes, we're all wonderful, wonderful people.

Speaker 419:48

So when did we all get so fearful?

Speaker 419:54

And now we're finally finding our voices.

Tidjane Thiam19:56

Kinding up

Speaker 420:00

So take a chance, come help me sing this Yes we're all wonderful, wonderful

Presenter20:11

That was Emily Sandey and Read All About It and Memories for You of the Olympic ceremony and how much you enjoyed the Olympics and you clean it.

Tidjane Thiam20:17

And how much you enjoyed the Olympics and you know, you seen bolt, you know, winning was um anyway a great moment.

Presenter20:23

Tijan Thiem, there was something that very briefly you were talking to me about there during the music, and maybe a difficult thing to talk about it, but it was so shocking to me that I have to ask you about it, is that a person operating at your level, CEO of this enormous company that you are, of the Prudential,

Presenter20:41

It seems that on a daily basis you encounter people who are not only shocked by your place in society, but are deliberately trying to put you in your place because of your colour.

Tidjane Thiam20:52

I avoid talking about it because I don't think it's very helpful. I think this has been a a wonderfully welcoming place for me. I mean, I'm the chairman of the Association of British Insurers. It's a fantastically open society which gives great opportunities to people of all origins and all races. What we're talking about here, I think, is human nature. In every society, every place, there are people who are not necessarily open-minded and constructive. Generally, if I have to go to a restaurant, often I'm offered a table between the toilets and the kitchen, an empty restaurant. So I deal with it with humor. My standard joke is, Do you have anything worse? But, you know, I don't dwell on it. Things are much better than they used to be. I'm running a big company. I am in a very influential position in society. And, you know, I don't think one should let all of that take too much importance.

Presenter21:40

Mr President, last year, Tijian Tian, you were appointed chair of the G twenty's High Level Panel on Infrastructure and Investment. This is an organisation that's been set up to try to kick start emerging economies with, as I understand it, private sector investment. Now we all know that Britain is expanding its overseas aid budget and it is a topic of huge concern actually in some quarters that we're doing that.

Presenter22:03

When so much spending here at home has been cut. Do you think David Cameron is right to keep pumping taxpayers' money as subsidies abroad?

Tidjane Thiam22:10

Mr President, aid is actually not such a big potato. The real issue and the things that distort and create poverty are subsidies, for instance, to wheat to make bread, which means that poor people in Abidjan Viet Ricos eat bread made with French flour rather than flour from cassava locally, and that's creating so much poverty in the countryside. Then people move to the cities, sixty percent of people in Abidjo live in the slum and will would look at us in government and say, Well, why do you have so many people in slums? and you feel like saying well where do I start? I'm a great believer in the private sector. I think that countries have to lift themselves out of poverty. I don't think that the answer comes from the outside, because what drives democracy is the notion that I contribute, even if I make one hundred dollars a year, one dollar out of that one hundred is going to government and therefore I have a stake. The problem with a lot of aid is that it works against democracy because the country is supported by other countries' taxpayers who don't vote in the local elections.

Presenter23:09

And people do begin to vote, and they begin to feel engaged in the process when they're paying. That's the only way. That is the only way. It's time for a little bit more music on your sixth.

Tidjane Thiam23:12

That's the only way.

Tidjane Thiam23:16

Uh my misspent youth in movie theatres once upon a time in the West. Uh I I love movies, not just spaghetti westerns. But this one I saw uh with one of my brothers when I was very young. And this is a a beautiful piece of music by Eno Morricon, who's been prolific as a score writer and has made many, many great soundtracks.

Presenter24:07

Once upon a time in the West, the title track from the film of the same name by the composer Ennio Morricone. So, Tijan Tiam, you are hailed along with the, it has to be said, magnificent Didier Drogba as a national hero in Côte d'Ivoire. You're one of those people there who's been a well-known face since you were just a teenager. You started excelling academically, and so they started reporting on you on the news. So, public property for quite a long time. How do you negotiate that?

Tidjane Thiam24:34

It depends, I think there are people who enjoy it.

Tidjane Thiam24:36

It's not my nature. It's not? No. So.

Presenter24:38

Is it uncomfortable for you to sit here today and talk about your latest?

Tidjane Thiam24:42

Is it? Yes, thank God, you're very, very, very, very nice and you made me feel very at ease.

Presenter24:47

What is it you worry about? You just worry about opening yourself up to scrutiny or you worry about

Tidjane Thiam24:50

I don't know, I think everybody has his personality.

Presenter24:52

Two.

Tidjane Thiam24:53

It's just not my inclination.

Presenter24:55

Do you know did he

Tidjane Thiam24:56

No, not directly, no.

Presenter24:58

You don't.

Tidjane Thiam24:59

No.

Presenter24:59

Two of the most famous men, the Kamaiks of Ivory.

Tidjane Thiam25:00

I think we're in the time one hundred together, but

Presenter25:03

But is it because he's a Chelsea player and you're an Arsenal fan?

Tidjane Thiam25:06

Ah, you've done really your research extremely well. Um that's part of it.

Presenter25:13

And how do you relax? Do you have time to go and watch the Arsenal and I

Tidjane Thiam25:15

I gosh, that's a painful topic. I don't agree with Mr. Wanger on his approach to football, and I've told him that.

Presenter25:22

Have you told him that face to face?

Tidjane Thiam25:23

Yes, I was on a panel with him. It was called I think From the Boardroom to the Touchline. And I launched into a diatribe to tell him that in two thousand nine he didn't have a defence. So if I bore your listeners with football, but you know, and you cannot win in football if you don't have a defence. And he told me you don't understand anything about football. I have to say, I think that since then he's moved in that direction. He's hired a defensive coach. And I think the results are better this year. But to answer your question, I go as often as I can, yeah. I spend as much time as I can with my my sons. I I think they're not bad as sons go. Good company. I see friends. Nothing really out of the ordinary.

Presenter25:23

Yeah.

Presenter25:46

But it's true

Presenter25:48

Yeah.

Speaker 425:48

Uh

Presenter25:48

Uh

Presenter25:59

Okay, let's have your seventh disk. What is it?

Tidjane Thiam26:01

It's an opera. I came to opera relatively late in life. The first opera I saw was in nineteen eighty four, La Tosca, in Paris, with Pavaotti. And I think it's a beautiful piece of music by a great Metzos opera node named Janet Baker.

Speaker 426:31

See you.

Speaker 427:02

Oh dear

Speaker 427:04

Facebook.

Presenter27:15

Quifarusensa Uridice from Gluk's Orfeo and Uridice. The soloist there was Dame Janet Baker. And so, Tijan Chiam, you mentioned that your mother died when you were in your early twenties. Your father, how much of your life and success was he able to witness?

Tidjane Thiam27:29

Is he able to witness?

Tidjane Thiam27:31

It passed away just before I became CO unfortunately, in January two thousand nine, so Riya was announced in March, so just just before then.

Presenter27:40

But you had climbed many mountains in your life and career before then. What what did you make of your huge success?

Tidjane Thiam27:41

Yeah, lanterns in your

Tidjane Thiam27:44

Deep.

Tidjane Thiam27:47

He was very I think he was very proud, I think, because he contributed. I mean, he really, really, really trained me. I mean, my father had me read Le Monde when I was six or seven every day and summarize articles for him and he really, really shaped me in many, many, many, many ways.

Presenter28:01

Did he tell you he was proud?

Presenter28:03

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam28:03

Yeah.

Presenter28:03

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam28:04

He would from time to time. Not too often, but from time to time. And he was a very religious man, also. And you were talking about the coup, and he made this funny comment when the coup happened. And he said, I wasn't really sure, but I think God really loves you. And I said, What do you mean? And he said, You know, because to have a blow like that is a blessing. And he always told me the best thing that ever happened to me was going to jail. And he always told me before that I was just a fool. And I came out to transform man. And he he kind of believed it's like fire with metal. He kind of believed in the transformational value of those experiences.

Presenter28:39

You were known within your family as Ultim Espoire. Was it The Last Hope? Is that right? Is that what I'm saying?

Tidjane Thiam28:44

What's the connection?

Presenter28:45

Good enough.

Tidjane Thiam28:45

Enough.

Presenter28:45

Why was that what did that mean?

Tidjane Thiam28:47

Oh God, we c we were five boys and two girls. My father wo dreamed look, he went to France for the first time in nineteen fifty four. And he tells us the story that he got in the cab and he said, Which hotel? He said, No, no, take me to the best school in France.

Tidjane Thiam29:03

And the cabby took him to Vikol Polytechnique. And there were two cadets from the school who kept um guard in front of the school every day. And he walked up to her and he said, You know, I'm gonna have a son in this school. So you can win this black man in nineteen fifty four, telling them that, and then that became uh a goal. And uh yeah, so my brothers

Presenter29:22

And it came to pass.

Tidjane Thiam29:23

Yeah, my brothers tried and they didn't make it and they started calling me, Yeah, you team as well because and my horrible you know if you don't get into polytechnic my fur will kill you. I said, Well, yeah, I know, but anyway, very good. Anyway, somehow I got in.

Presenter29:34

So what about his idea, then, that the strong parts of people's characters are forged in the white heat of problems? That's the sort of father he was. What sort of father are you? Do you believe in that?

Tidjane Thiam29:45

Uh no. I'm very close to my sons. It's very funny. I'll give you an indication. When they bring me their report card, and it's good because in England you have these two. You have effort and achievement. And I only look at effort. Achievement is what you are endowed with. But I want to see age in effort rather than necessarily focusing on achievement, focusing more on happiness.

Presenter30:06

Mr. President, you have occupied then many significant roles. As we know, you're heaped with international plaudits, apparently. When I look on your C V it's almost mind-boggling. I was reminded, as I read all of this, of Michelle Obama once famously and very publicly remarking that, you know, Barack Obama was just one of these guys who'd left his smelly socks around and was quite an annoying husband. Do you find at home that you need to be brought down a peg or two?

Tidjane Thiam30:30

Oh no, I don't I don't need to. It happens all the time. So really. Very effectively. My children laugh at me all the time. But the good thing about having children is they keep you up to date. So I can impress people with my knowledge of Family Guy or Modern Family or the Big Bang Theory and Sheldon. So they they keep me really on my clothes.

Presenter30:33

And you are brought down.

Presenter30:48

Do you spend I mean, given how busy you are and you're a family man, do you spend much time alone?

Tidjane Thiam30:54

Yeah, actually because first of all I travel a lot and when you travel you do actually spend a lot of time alone.

Presenter31:01

Because, as you know, I'm I'm going to cast you away, and so there'll be lots of time for you to be on.

Tidjane Thiam31:05

All my life has just been a practice for this programme.

Presenter31:08

Let's

Tidjane Thiam31:09

Let's hear your final piece of music then. It's something I mean I enjoy myself here. I like Francinatra and it's probably a very appropriate way to close this series of musical pieces.

Speaker 431:18

Fly me to the moon, let me play among the stars.

Speaker 431:26

And let me see what spring is like on a Jupiter and Mars.

Speaker 431:34

In other words...

Speaker 431:37

Hold my hand.

Speaker 431:43

In other words.

Presenter31:46

Baby, kiss me.

Presenter31:48

That was, of course, Frank Sinatra and Fly Me to the Moon. So I'm going to give you the books now. You get to take the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare and one of your own choices. What will it be, Tijan?

Tidjane Thiam31:59

It's quite simple because it's a book I read the first time I went to China in nineteen eighty four and really there was basically no music, no entertainment. Any evening at seven PM we'd be locked in our rooms, and it was The Karmazov Brothers by Fedor Dostoevsky. And I know it's a book that keeps you company when you are alone. So it's I think it's a very safe choice.

Presenter32:19

Okay, that's yours.

Tidjane Thiam32:20

Uh

Presenter32:20

Yeah.

Tidjane Thiam32:20

Good and

Presenter32:20

And a luxury, too?

Tidjane Thiam32:22

Now, that's probably the most difficult. I love peanuts, so I have made the assumption that there are peanuts on your island, am I right?

Presenter32:30

Um let's say possibly.

Tidjane Thiam32:31

Okay, then I want uh a solar powered uh ice cream maker because I love ice cream.

Presenter32:36

Okay, it's yours. And if you had to save just one of the eight disks from today, which one would you save?

Tidjane Thiam32:43

I think I'd go for for Tajugun from from Senegal.

Presenter32:45

Uh

Presenter32:46

We'll give you that. Tijan Thien, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Tidjane Thiam32:50

It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much, Karsten.

Presenter33:09

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc.co.uk slash Radio Four.