Celia Birtwell

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:33

My castaway this week is the designer Celia Burtwell. In the ephemeral world of fashion she has endured. Marianne Faithful wore her creations in the sixties, Kate Moss is a fan to day. Whimsical prints and flattering forms are her signature style. And although her vintage designs are highly collectible, her new ranges fly off the high street rails too.

Presenter0:56

Never one of the fashion world's flamboyant self promoters, she has, none the less a face known to millions. As a long time friend and muse to David Hockney, she is the woman at the centre of his famous painting, Mr and Mrs. Clark and Percy.

Presenter1:11

She wants her work to be relevant, because, she says, There's nothing worse than being outdated. If that happens, and I feel I'm past it, I'll stop. Well, you're clearly far from past it, Celia. And these days you're commissioned by everyone from Top Shop

Presenter1:25

for clothes to clarages for interiors and you've been at it a good long time. But when you see some lovely young thing swanning down the street in one of your current creations, do you still get a thrill?

Celia Birtwell1:36

Yes. It's lovely to meet. I I think um the older you get, youth looks more and more delectable and you think, gosh, I was there once but when you're young you never appreciate it the same way.

Presenter1:46

I'm imagining when you started out you were full of sort of blind enthusiasm and optimism. Is that harder and harder to hold on to as you deal with the big corporate beasts of the jungle these days?

Celia Birtwell1:56

I think it's completely different now. When I was young, everybody was trying something out sort of quite new, but then suddenly young and beautiful became

Celia Birtwell2:07

quite apparent in in the boutique sense of the word. It was not big business. And now I watch it it's rather cutthroat compared to what it was like when I was young. I don't think we quite knew what we were doing. It was just experimental and fun. Yeah.

Presenter2:23

There's big business still in those beautiful vintage dresses that you made with your then husband, Ozzie Clark, and they sell for pretty big bucks. What is it do you think that has made them such design classics, and such collectibles?

Celia Birtwell2:36

I think he he could make whether you were small, fat, thin, or whatever, look.

Celia Birtwell2:43

You're most attractive, and they had a sort of spiritual feel about them that I don't think any other designer has managed to create since.

Celia Birtwell2:52

We all felt very, very lovely in his clothes.

Presenter2:55

And so, of course, it they were his designs, the sort of pattern cutting was his, but the prints upon them were yours. It was, if you like, one of those beautiful meetings of creative minds where the sum of its parts was much more than the individuals, do you think?

Celia Birtwell3:08

Well, I like to think that's true.

Celia Birtwell3:11

I do think that's true to a degree, because I think his work was very hard edged. He had a very strong architectural knowledge of form, and I think I haven't got any of that. I'm two dimensional and I see things in textiles. So I think my

Celia Birtwell3:28

Treatment alongside him gave it a softness that it wouldn't have achieved otherwise.

Presenter3:33

Time for some music, then, Celia Bertwell. What are we going to hear first off this morning?

Celia Birtwell3:37

The first record is Under the Boardwalk by the Drifters.

Presenter3:40

And tell me why you've chosen this.

Celia Birtwell3:42

Well, when I was young I thought it was a wonderful record and it's got a real good beat and I think I'd be very happy on the Desert Island listening to it.

Speaker 43:50

Or when the sun goes down and burns the tar up on the roof.

Speaker 43:58

And your shoes get so hot, you wish your tired feet were fireproof.

Speaker 44:04

Some bad for

Speaker 44:09

Down by the sea, yeah.

Speaker 44:14

On a branches with my baby

Presenter4:17

There's where I'll be.

Presenter4:21

That was under the boardwalk by the drifters. So, Celia, for very many years now you've been, I suppose, a sort of backroom grafter in the design industry. And as I said in the introduction, people might not know your face, because you're not a self-promoter, if it were not for the fact that your face has been painted and drawn and crayoned on many, many occasions by David Hockney, your very good friend. That first picture that we all became aware of, Mr. and Mrs. Clarke and Percy, what it when was it painted?

Presenter4:49

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell4:49

uh nineteen seventy one. David was doing a series of portraits of his friends, and he said

Celia Birtwell4:55

I'll come and take some photographs of you. I'd like to do a double portrait.

Celia Birtwell5:00

So at first my memories were of me wearing some kaftan, because I'd just been to Morocco and uh

Celia Birtwell5:06

And then of course I wore the black dress with the red movement round the sleeves and the tie bow.

Presenter5:10

Uh

Speaker 45:10

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell5:12

And um I still have that dress, much to my amazement. Of course I can't get into it any more, but we never thought it would become so heroic. I mean nobody ever thought that that would be like the number one postcard sold at the Tate.

Presenter5:27

And you used the word heroic there. That's interesting because a lot of uh critics say that one of the fascinating things about it is it's sort of a reversal of the normal classical pose where the wife sits and the man is standing. You are standing, looking in command, and there's Aussie, your husband, sort of slightly kind of slouched and a bit out of it, yes.

Celia Birtwell5:37

So it's in the map.

Celia Birtwell5:38

Thank you a step

Celia Birtwell5:46

A bit out of it. A bit out of it, yes. I don't know whether that's true. I I think that was in David's head at the time. I think he saw us as in in this position. And also the painting of the cat. Blanche was my favorite little cat, and indeed Blanche is in the painting.

Celia Birtwell6:03

But Percy was her son.

Celia Birtwell6:05

So David thought the sound of mister and misses Clark and Percy had a better ring than Blanche. But I know it was blonde.

Presenter6:13

Ah, sh

Celia Birtwell6:14

Uh

Presenter6:14

And, as I say, David Horkney has painted you on many, many occasions. I'm intrigued as to the as to the relationship between a painter and the sitter. Is that an odd sense?

Celia Birtwell6:24

Well, I mean, it was very unexpected. I never thought of myself as a muse or a model. I thought of myself as a doer and a creator. My life's been full of surprises, actually, and I think fate's played such a

Celia Birtwell6:38

a particular role in it. I met David in about nineteen sixty nine and our families were rather similar. My father was rather eccentric, his was too and we found that we liked each other rather a lot and uh he always says I've got a good eye, which I'm very flattered by.

Celia Birtwell6:58

And um I think that's my best quality actually.

Presenter7:01

Uh

Celia Birtwell7:01

Yeah.

Presenter7:01

Yeah. Music

Celia Birtwell7:01

Yeah.

Presenter7:01

Then Celia, what are we gonna hear? Your second piece.

Celia Birtwell7:03

We're going to play O My Beloved Father by Puccini, sung by Maria Callas. My father used to think of himself as a bit of an opera singer and he introduced me to classical music and Puccini makes me want to cry, so here we go.

Speaker 47:24

Heal my fear of all

Speaker 47:31

Yeah.

Speaker 47:49

Fairly.

Speaker 47:54

The Cole of Lisa.

Speaker 48:06

A sweet man

Speaker 48:21

Where both are belong.

Presenter8:28

Maria Callas singing Omio Babino Caro from Puccini's opera Jani Skiki. So is it true, Celia Bertwell, that you're no good with a needle and thread?

Presenter8:37

Absolutely hopeless.

Celia Birtwell8:41

I was talking to my sister yesterday about it, and I said the hours that my mother used to sit at the machine making as endless clothes I could embroider a little bit, but

Celia Birtwell8:51

It's quite funny because I love fashion and I love everything about it. I like painting my prints and um I've got endless patience for doing my own work, but sewing leaves me cold.

Presenter9:04

And so your mother at one time, before she was a busy mother of three daughters, she worked as a seamstress. Wh where does she work?

Celia Birtwell9:08

A seamstress

Celia Birtwell9:11

She worked in Manchester and uh she made satin wedding dresses actually. She was very skilled, and also she had an interaction with Ozzie for a time because he would come with his homework and she loved to teach people how to make clothes.

Presenter9:25

David Hockney, that you had similar backgrounds in that your fathers were both rather eccentric. So tell me more about your rather eccentric father.

Celia Birtwell9:31

Rather eccentric.

Celia Birtwell9:34

I always admired my father. He was a very, very nice man. He used to come home in the evening and look at his garden.

Celia Birtwell9:41

loved his books, loved his daughters to go to bed at night before he could sit up and read into the early hours of the morning. So in the background was this rather noble man,

Celia Birtwell9:52

And my mother was completely the opposite. She was a very practical person. She would do the decorating and

Celia Birtwell9:59

the sorting out of putting shelves up even, because he wasn't actually very practical in that way.

Presenter10:04

So you were the eldest of three daughters. What what are your early memories? Were were you a close bunch?

Celia Birtwell10:09

Well, there were five years' difference between the three of us. So we were quite far apart. Um my memories were of being brought up in Prestwich, which is uh North Manchester.

Celia Birtwell10:21

I like that part of the world very much now, and I think the countryside there is absolutely beautiful. So my early memories of orchards and pigsties and swallows in nests

Presenter10:33

Quite strong. So when you were thirteen then, the look would have that was the mid-fifties, the look would have been the sort. Well, it was the new look, wasn't it? It was the long pencil skirts, the peplum jackets, the gloves. How did you look?

Celia Birtwell10:45

Well, I always remember looking a bit of a joke because I think I had white short socks on and little Cuban heeled shoes. So it must have looked, but I always thought I was rather stylish. There is one famous story about my father, who uh I think I was probably sixteen and

Presenter10:52

Sounds rather delightful.

Celia Birtwell11:03

Probably thinking I looked a bit like British Bardeau, Joke Joke.

Celia Birtwell11:08

And um my mother making me this denim dress with little frills down the front. And I think he was so embarrassed he had to walk behind me in the street. Let's have some music. Your third disc. Uh my third disc is La Mer uh by Charles Trennay. I've always been quite a francophile and this music reminds me of lovely trips, all sorts of places in France, driving around the countryside.

Speaker 311:38

La May

Speaker 311:41

Convadencé.

Speaker 311:44

Leon, he goes little egg.

Speaker 311:49

Adirofflet, Davoson.

Speaker 311:52

Love babe.

Speaker 311:55

They were filled.

Speaker 311:57

God bless

Speaker 312:01

La May.

Presenter12:04

La Mer by Charles Renay. So, then, Celia, you were at technical college, as we know, in Salford, when you were thirteen, fourteen. You were studying textiles and pottery. What did you think? Did you even think about the future, if you thought about what it held?

Celia Birtwell12:20

No, I don't think I did. I just was having such a lovely time. I had to decide there one of my slight worries was you had to decide whether you were going to do uh illustration, textiles, pottery or fine art. There was no fashion course at the time. So I did um

Celia Birtwell12:40

I d I did a bit of everything for a while.

Celia Birtwell12:43

We used to make our own screens and do dreadful printing and make great big messes everywhere, but somehow textiles seemed to be the thing for me.

Presenter12:54

And it was your good fortune, I suppose, to be a teenager at the point in British society when teenagers actually started to exist. I mean, up until then they'd just been children who were adults in waiting. Were you aware of that as something that was interesting and something that was a a difference between you and your parents?

Celia Birtwell13:04

Ting

Celia Birtwell13:11

I don't know, but I do remember um my father getting the observer one Sunday morning and seeing a dress by Mary Quant and it was a sack dress with pleats round the bottom and it was made out of ticking. And I'd also at the same time my mother had made me something similar and I thought this is a bohemian look, this is the way to look. So um I remember feeling at last a teenager had a place.

Presenter13:39

Sixteen, when you met Ozzie Clark for the first time. Tell me about that.

Celia Birtwell13:43

Well, I thought he was quite amazing. He had a beetle hair cut before any beetles came along.

Celia Birtwell13:49

He had a jerkin which had a leather front.

Celia Birtwell13:53

with a V neck and a little rounded collared shirt and

Presenter13:58

Winkle pickers. Um you once said on your collaboration with him that uh you said of Ozzie, I think my sketches were a fantasy that he brought to life.

Speaker 414:08

Boom.

Presenter14:09

That must have been quite something, to find somebody who could not only interpret but enhance what it was you were doing creatively.

Speaker 414:11

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell14:14

Was you a

Celia Birtwell14:15

Well, I think I added a go day in every drawing I ever did, and so he liked go days quite a lot. We never really talked about our work together. He would look at my drawings, I would look at his. But we didn't have conversations. We had conversations about things that he'd bring to the home, like he'd buy a beautiful vase,

Celia Birtwell14:33

find a bit of Lalique pottery that he knew I'd like, so we shared other kinds of interests, more really for the home.

Celia Birtwell14:41

I would find clothes, of course, on Port Bella Road, and we then called them

Celia Birtwell14:46

Secondhand clothes, which have now, of course, become vintage, which is a very different calibre, I think, to have a lot of stuff.

Presenter14:52

And the next one's zero.

Celia Birtwell14:53

On the price

Presenter14:53

I must

Celia Birtwell14:54

Almost exactly.

Presenter14:55

I must just ask you, you said Godi and I'm going to reveal my ignorance. What is that?

Celia Birtwell14:58

A go day is when you put a panel in the in the you insert that which gives fullness to the garment. So those are go days. And I was always drawing these go days. Let's have some more music, Celia. What's next? Well, how sweet it is to be loved by you by dear old Marvin Gay.

Presenter15:02

Okay from E

Celia Birtwell15:17

Um Marvin Gaye I listened to a lot in my youth and used to dance a lot to him, and I think it's a a very, very pretty record.

Speaker 415:26

I wanna stop and thank you, thank you I wanna stop and thank you for now How sweet is to be lost by you

Speaker 415:45

How sweet it is to be my size.

Speaker 415:50

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 415:53

Close my eyes at night

Presenter15:57

How Sweet It Is by Marvin Gaye, recalling for you, Celia, your early dancing days in London. You moved to London then in round about nineteen sixty one, I think it was. Yes. I'm imagining that you and Ozzie Clark must have been a particularly beautiful couple. There he was with his on-trend haircut and his wonderful bomber jackets, and there you were looking as beautiful as you did look with your ringlets and your Botticellian face. And did did people st stop and stare as you swaggered through the streets of London?

Celia Birtwell16:28

Well, I think I always worked to make myself look as attractive as possible, but I didn't really see myself as a botticelli girl.

Celia Birtwell16:35

You know, I was always looking at models that Dulcie would work with, who I was always looking at thinking how beautiful they were.

Celia Birtwell16:42

So I always thought he was very attractive, and he had wonderful sort of wide shoulders and slim hips, and um clothes looked wonderful on him.

Celia Birtwell16:52

But, um when I look back, of course, I think, well, you weren't bad.

Presenter16:56

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell16:57

Yeah.

Presenter16:57

And what about your working relationship then? W did it actually have a formal beginning or did it just evolve out of your relationship with each other?

Celia Birtwell17:05

He first started with a girl called Alice Pollack, who invited him to do a collection for Quorum, and at first he started work making clothes in plain fabrics.

Celia Birtwell17:16

And then I think it evolved through Alice Pollack encouraging me, saying, I think we could use some of your prints, which of course I was delighted to do, and

Celia Birtwell17:26

First of all I did one print and tried to cram absolutely every feeling I'd got in the world in this one print. And then she said, Well, I think next time we could do a few, and maybe you could add, you know, some accessories, maybe you could do some scarves.

Celia Birtwell17:41

And I was in my elements then. I love doing it.

Presenter17:43

And your designs were worn by, well, anybody who was anybody in London at the time, Marianne Faithful, Bianca Jagger.

Celia Birtwell17:48

Anybody

Presenter17:51

Twiggy, The Rolling Stones, Paloma Picasso, Jimi Hendricks, he wore some of did he wear some of your shirts this time?

Celia Birtwell17:57

Yes, I think he did. He was big time, wasn't he? He was important.

Presenter18:00

He really paused.

Celia Birtwell18:02

But Ozzy thought he was just the greatest.

Celia Birtwell18:05

And every night we'd have to listen to Jimi Hendrix. Hence, I haven't chosen any of his records, but I did think.

Presenter18:11

I think he was great. And these famous and very beautiful and very prominent women who wore your designs. I mean, that must have been a a fantasy almost come to life to see the most fashionable people of the day.

Celia Birtwell18:22

Well, I think the fashion shows Ozzie created were the first ever to have music and wonderful girls simultaneously performing like a theatrical experience. And I think for me I used to get the sort of shivers down the spine that one does when you're seeing something that's pretty good.

Celia Birtwell18:41

It was very on trend to be at an Ozzy Clark show. Some more music then, Celia. We've got uh your fifth choice. Tell me about that. The fifth choice is uh Sacrifice by Elton John. I love this record. I like the words and I love the tune. And I think it's a great song. Sweet as it comes, come.

Speaker 419:00

Hallelujah

Speaker 419:03

Negative July

Speaker 419:08

Coco

Speaker 419:12

But done by you

Speaker 419:16

Some things look better, baby.

Speaker 419:20

Just pass and through.

Presenter19:25

And it's not a sacrifice.

Presenter19:28

Sacrifice by Alphonse John. And you said, Celia Burtwell going into that, that you just like the words. And it's interesting because the words are bittersweet in that song. I was listening there to the just passing through bit. I w I wonder listening to you talk about the sixties and, you know, Ozzy playing the Jimi Hendrix in the other room at two in the morning and all of that stuff, if it's rather more fun to read about it and look at the photographs than it actually was to be living it at the time.

Celia Birtwell19:36

I was listening.

Celia Birtwell19:38

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell19:53

People are always asking you about your past or about your youth because it was so such an important time really in say in fashion and in England.

Celia Birtwell20:01

But I think things can be more pleasurable now to look back on than they were at the time. I think that's very absolutely true.

Presenter20:08

When Ozzie had two children together, Albert in'sixty nine and George in'seventy one, how did you manage to combine having two small children with this burgeoning fashion label and being at the centre of fashionable society?'Cause that's a a bit of an awkward mix, I would think.

Celia Birtwell20:25

Well, I've always been a home's body. I've always been the ho one at home. I like my home. I like living. I d I'm

Celia Birtwell20:32

He would always party and I was often at home. But gradually as the relationship unfolded it became more more and more impossible to sort of stay together. He'd sort lost the marvellous thing that I loved about him, I guess, and had become very, very sort of almost self destructive.

Celia Birtwell20:51

In a way I think he'd have been happier as a rock star, because they could work hard.

Celia Birtwell20:56

and then go and party.

Celia Birtwell20:58

And uh you can't do that in the fashion world. You finish one collection and you have to start the next.

Presenter21:02

Next.

Celia Birtwell21:08

I always knew he was

Presenter21:08

Bye.

Celia Birtwell21:09

bisexual. Yes, oh yes. I don't think he really wanted to be homosexual.

Presenter21:10

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell21:15

Um I think it was something that um you had to hide.

Celia Birtwell21:21

Os it was illegal then.

Celia Birtwell21:23

But we made this relationship, which was out of the blue. It wasn't meant to be a love affair, but, you know, stranger things have happened. Indeed.

Presenter21:31

In nineteen seventy four your marriage broke down properly, and there you were the mother of two young boys, and the the rent has to be paid, and if if dad's off behaving like a rock star, if not earning like one, then money must have been a worry, was it?

Celia Birtwell21:34

Yeah, you were the m

Celia Birtwell21:36

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell21:38

Then if

Celia Birtwell21:44

Well, I did collections of prints for a couple of years.

Celia Birtwell21:48

I managed. I used to do a bit of teaching and I did endless things, but I was very disappointed when I lost my job with the company that Ozzie had been employed with. Why did you lose your job? Because I actually started to do some clothes for them. And because I had young children, I couldn't go to Germany and Europe to sort of promote them. And I did some teaching, I did some graphic designs. I suppose it was quite a struggling time.

Presenter22:17

It must have been heartbreaking for you to see Ozzy spiral creatively, because of course he couldn't keep hold of the reins.

Celia Birtwell22:21

Yeah, because of

Celia Birtwell22:23

No.

Presenter22:23

No.

Celia Birtwell22:24

No, no.

Celia Birtwell22:25

And then he made a bit of a comeback in the eighties, but I'd really quite fallen out with him by then because I thought he was

Celia Birtwell22:33

not doing himself any favours.

Celia Birtwell22:36

Let's have some money.

Presenter22:36

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell22:36

Yes, we're going to play Embrace You by Handel. I love this because Andy, my partner, who's actually, as David says, quite a rock for me in life. And I'm going to play this because we went to Glenbourne and we took a picnic and we arrived and it was this sort of the rainiest day, the windiest day. And I remember sitting against a brick wall having this so-called picnic and then going into this opera house and listening to this divine music.

Speaker 423:08

Brought a blockchain.

Speaker 423:15

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 423:27

Uh

Speaker 423:28

There's nothing in my name on him.

Speaker 423:52

You leave one.

Speaker 423:55

I thought it was

Speaker 424:04

Restore deal.

Presenter24:09

Io Tabraccio, I Embrace You from Handel's opera Rodolanda, sung there by Sophie Daneman and Daniel Taylor with the Raglan Baroque players. You said there that you had chosen that piece of music because it reminds you of the man who's been you said your rock, Andy Palmer, since the late eighties. I I wonder if that was quite a nice

Presenter24:26

Role reversal for you is somebody who'd had to be the rock to then have somebody else to rely on.

Celia Birtwell24:32

Well, when I first met Andy, um

Celia Birtwell24:34

It was a very strange affair because I was just buying a house. He was helping to renovate the house. And he was going to renovate the house. Well, in fact, he just came to do the damp course. And he stayed. They stayed. And um

Presenter24:39

And he was given

Presenter24:43

And he stayed.

Celia Birtwell24:46

He loves nature in a more intelligent way than I do, because he'll notice a sort of ant crawling out of somewhere which I probably would just dismiss.

Celia Birtwell24:56

But, um, it was very nice to have somebody who looked after me. I didn't see it like that, actually. I haven't seen it like that, but it's true.

Presenter25:04

So Celia, your career as a designer then, as we know, had flourished with this partnership that you had with Ozzie Clark. Much later he died in very tragic circumstances in the middle of the nineties. But following your divorce, back in nineteen seventy four, you went from

Presenter25:18

Designing your fabrics at home to then opening this eponymous shop in the mid eighties in as it is now trendy Notting Hill. What about running your own business? You have to be really a very practical person to do that well.

Celia Birtwell25:30

Well, as my landlady still says to me when I started and when she was introduced to me, she said, um

Celia Birtwell25:37

I think she'll last five minutes.

Celia Birtwell25:40

We always laugh about it actually because I did have the shop for twenty five years. It's like a big part of my life. The nice thing about the home is that you can do a design. I did a design in nineteen eighty four when I first opened the shop called Little Animals.

Celia Birtwell25:54

And it's never gone out of style. And I've moved, I've called it Beasties, called it Animal Solo.

Celia Birtwell26:01

And the design just goes on. Now in fashion it could never happen. It's new, new, new, new. So my home fabrics I'm qu rather proud of some of them. The home is a different animal altogether than fashion.

Celia Birtwell26:16

Yeah.

Presenter26:16

I was reading in the cuttings that when you did your designs for Top Shop, which was in two thousand six, I think they were the fastest ever selling collection, outselling Kate Moss for Top Shop and all those other uh fancy designers that they they get in there. Did did that take you by surprise?

Celia Birtwell26:22

I think they won't.

Celia Birtwell26:27

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell26:33

Yes, because I thought I don't know how people are going to react to these, because you don't. I did get

Celia Birtwell26:38

An inkling that they might be okay, because I'd been to Top Shop in Oxford Street, and I'd seen the collection on on a rail.

Celia Birtwell26:46

And I thought these aren't bad, and I got quite a buzz from them.

Celia Birtwell26:51

Let's have some more music then, Celia. What are we going to hear? Now we're going to have um Tim Buckley singing Dolphins and it's not to everybody's taste, but it is to mine.

Speaker 427:04

But Lord, I'm not the one to tell.

Speaker 427:10

This old world, how to get along

Speaker 427:16

I only know that peace will come.

Speaker 427:22

When all our haters gone

Speaker 427:26

I've been a search engine for the W

Presenter27:32

That was Dolphins by Tim Buckley. In a way it seems, Celia Burtwell, as if your career, your creative career has done a full circle. Because when you started out, you did design fabrics and things for heels, and then you went on to do all the beautiful clothes we know about. And now you've been back doing fabrics for the last couple of decades. And now things like tents and watering cans, those sort of quite practical things. Are you surprised at where it's led you this career?

Celia Birtwell27:56

I am.

Celia Birtwell27:58

I am, actually. I know. These things pop up and I've I've had quite a few failures as well, like everybody. I suppose one doesn't know about the things you're not terribly proud of that haven't taken off or been successful.

Presenter28:11

What about your own interiors? I'm thinking now to the island. Would you you'd want to create beauty, I imagine.

Celia Birtwell28:16

Oh, I'd love to make the island um but it'd have to look right, wouldn't it? What what would right be?

Presenter28:20

Would write

Celia Birtwell28:22

Oh, I can't tell you that until I saw the island. Oh. It can't bear things if they don't.

Presenter28:25

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell28:28

Look right. I'm a bit bossy about things like that.

Presenter28:31

And would I find when I know you say you're renovating a house just now, but once all the renovation's done, would I find a lovely Hockney above the mantelpiece?

Celia Birtwell28:38

Easy.

Celia Birtwell28:40

Uh

Presenter28:40

Would I?

Celia Birtwell28:40

Yes, you would. I know I'm very proud of my hot knees. I'm very proud of those.

Presenter28:41

Yeah.

Presenter28:45

So David won't be on the island, Andy won't be on the island. You will make it look beautiful, but will you survive without them? Will you be optimistic and buoyant?

Celia Birtwell28:54

Oh.

Celia Birtwell28:56

I think I'll be pretty lonely. I won't have anybody to chatter to, will I?

Presenter28:58

Uh

Speaker 428:58

Uh

Celia Birtwell29:00

Um I can make it look very nice, and I would embrace it as much as I could. I'd like to find the wildlife. I don't think I'm terribly good on my own for too long.

Presenter29:11

And without the curling tongs for your hair, you do love to curl your hair. I do.

Celia Birtwell29:14

I do.

Presenter29:15

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell29:16

Well, no one would see me, would they? So there is an upside, yes.

Presenter29:20

Let's have your final piece of music then, Celia Bertal. What are we going to hear?

Celia Birtwell29:22

We're going to hear Reverie by Debussy. I think this is the most delightful piece of music. I can't believe somebody

Celia Birtwell29:31

could make such beauty and the fact he was twenty-eight when he made this piece of music is incredible.

Presenter30:39

That was Reverie by Claude Debussy, played there by Monique Haas. So we come to the point, Celia, where I'm going to give you some stuff. First of all, the books, you get the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and what will you take along with that?

Celia Birtwell30:53

Well, I'd like to take a a book that uh would give me information about growing tropical flowers because obviously I

Presenter31:00

Yeah.

Celia Birtwell31:02

would think I'd be on a tropical island, so my choice would be tropical flowering plants. Yeah, Compendium. And

Presenter31:10

Uh

Celia Birtwell31:10

Uh

Presenter31:10

Uh

Celia Birtwell31:10

Uh

Presenter31:10

Um uh

Celia Birtwell31:10

And not Luxury too, what love?

Presenter31:11

What luxury would you like?

Celia Birtwell31:14

Well, I think if I was alone on a desert island and um in the middle of nowhere surrounded by lovely things I would like to sleep properly and I think if I slept properly I could face whatever I had to and um I think a luxurious bed would be a dream. Would you like a four poster? Doesn't need to have a canopy? That would be a good idea. I hadn't thought of that. Yes, that would be very nice. I'd feel a bit more secluded and

Presenter31:33

Um

Presenter31:40

Yeah. We sleep better. I shall give you that. And if you had to choose just one of the eight discs from your list today, which one would it be?

Celia Birtwell31:47

Well, I think the most beautiful piece of music I've played would be Reverie by Claude de Bussy. I could listen to that.

Presenter31:55

Endlessly. Right, you may have that. Celia Bertwell, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. My pleasure.

Presenter32:19

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.