Akram Khan

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:35

My castaway this week is the dancer and choreographer Akram Khan. His on stage style is daring, exquisite, and explosive, combining the intricate mathematical discipline of classical movement with contemporary dance. A compulsive collaborator, he's worked with everyone, from Prima Ballerina Sylvie Guillam to Disco Queen Kylie Manogue, Anish Kapoor has built his sets, Anthony Gormley his props.

Presenter1:00

He's never been one for sitting still. As a child of Bengali immigrants, he started learning Indian dance almost as soon as he could walk, and was then plucked from a lackluster school career to spend two years touring the world with Peter Brooke's Mahabharata. For twelve years now he's led his own dance company, who sell out theatres around the globe.

Presenter1:20

He says The way I communicate best is through my body. That's my language. And if that's taken away from me, words are not enough. Well, Akramkan, we hope that for the next little while at least words will be enough. Um what kind of g give me an idea of the kind of training you do each day.

Akram Khan1:34

It's different now to the way I used to train before. I mean, you know, when I when I was younger I used to train uh eight hours a day, but now I usually train for three hours. You know, I put on my belt. It's like a ritual, it's like a prayer for me. It's like brushing your teeth. You get up and you have to do that.

Presenter1:49

And you say you put on your bells, they're wrapped around your ankles.

Akram Khan1:51

I got around my ankles and um I would I would train for about an hour and a half to about three hours but th the last six months has been a very difficult period for me because I had an Achilles tendon rupture and it's really the first serious injury that I ever had and the vulnerability there is unbelievable and uh I discovered the gym through my physio pushing me to go to the gym because dancing training to be a dancer is different to training to be physically fit.

Presenter2:18

What do they make of you at the gym?

Akram Khan2:20

Um, pretty puny actually. I mean I feel quite insecure there. I mean, you know, my thighs are quite mus muscular, but um that's the size of their arms, forearms. So, you know, in ratio I feel like a tiny, you know, ant.

Presenter2:35

And you've said that, you know, this is the first time you've really had a proper injury, which is pretty remarkable for for a dancer. I'm wondering if it's something t to do with you're in you're in your late thirties, which for a dancer is sort of late middle age, really. Yeah. Is it something to do with your age that you've got the injury?

Akram Khan2:46

Yeah.

Akram Khan2:49

Um no, it's it's to do with arrogance, I think, really. There comes a point where you start to believe you're indestructible and uh I just took the body for granted and my body spoke back. It starts to speak back to you when it starts to hurt.

Presenter3:02

This injury has come at a particularly inopportune time because you are about to take part in the Olympics opening ceremony for twenty twelve. So so how is I mean, that must be interfering profoundly with your preparation.

Akram Khan3:08

So what

Akram Khan3:13

Um no, I just have to manage around it, really. Danny Boyle has been wonderful. You know, he just asked me straight after, he said, Do you think you can get back? and I said, I can. Do you trust me? and he said, Yeah, I do. He's been so supportive.

Presenter3:27

You're used to performance, of course, you've been performing for for many, many years, but the idea of having what will the global audience be for the Olympics, for the opening ceremony?

Akram Khan3:34

We think about, um, two billion or more.

Presenter3:38

Little freeson of nerves about that?

Akram Khan3:42

You know, I went to the stadium the other day. It was empty except Danny and some other choreographers and it was very awe inspiring. Um and I don't know how it's going to be for the audience, but for m for a performer to stand

Akram Khan3:55

In a scale where you feel so tiny, it just made me feel very humble.

Presenter4:00

Time for some music then, Akram Khan. Tell me about the first track we're going to hear today. What is it, and why have you chosen it?

Akram Khan4:05

It's Michael Jackson. Don't stop till you get enough. It's the moment of transformation for me as a child. I was early teens and I remember nobody knew me. I was a very shy person and I couldn't communicate. Words weren't something I was comfortable with, especially around girls. And then there's this disco competition held at school and my friend said, oh, go for it, go for it. And I went up for it and I did Michael Jackson. And from that day on, everybody knew who Akman Khan was because I won the competition. So it's a very, very important moment for me of kind of realizing that my body was my language. It was the first time I discovered my body became my way of communicating.

Speaker 24:48

Do you get enough?

Speaker 24:56

Do you get enough?

Speaker 24:58

With the punch door

Speaker 25:00

Do you get it on the touch?

Presenter5:17

That was Michael Jackson and Don't Stop Till You Genough. Akram Khan, you said going into that that you that you uh you know you did Michael Jackson at the school dance competition. So what, you were copying every move? Were you?

Akram Khan5:25

Sounds comfortable.

Akram Khan5:27

Yeah, I did. I was very good at imitating. I I I remember watching Thriller as a child and it just changed my life.

Presenter5:28

Yeah

Presenter5:34

And up until that point then, you had been studying Katak, which is this very traditional, fairly rigid mathematical form of of dance that i originated on the Indian subcontinent. And so when you watched Michael Jackson dance, did you did it kind of flick a a a switch in you? Did you think, I want to try a bit of that too?

Akram Khan5:42

Yeah, that's

Akram Khan5:51

Yeah, definitely. I mean, w the katak came really because of the push of my mother, you know. I didn't really want to do kattak. Um, Michael Jackson, nobody had to push me. The music would come on, I'd watch him and I'd just move. And my mum just kind of said, He he needs to do this, he needs to dance in some form or another. But she felt classical would give me a bass, it would give me a ritual.

Presenter6:17

And and where would you pra would you practice dance at home in the in

Akram Khan6:20

Yeah, I mean, we used to live above my dad's restaurant, so I I I apologize to all the customers who used to hear banging on the ceiling. Literally the ceiling was falling apart and my father had to plaster it.

Presenter6:31

When we think and we being the sort of ignorant masses when we think of Indian dancing, of course we tend to think of those huge and they are really intoxicating Bollywood numbers that we see. It is a completely different thing that you're talking about. To the lay person, can you explain the difference of what you would be watching?

Akram Khan6:48

Yeah, it's like it's like watching classical ballet as opposed to um the kind of pop video that you would see now. Classical has something very spiritual about it, and that's really important for me. And I I didn't realize at the time, but I think that's what my mother wanted me to get. Not just a sense of ritual and discipline, but the sense that it's connected to something more beyond yourself.

Presenter7:13

When I've watched, as I have, little uh clips of you rehearsing this traditional type of dance, katak dancing, th there's a sense in which it is interesting you say a spiritual element, a strong spiritual basis to it, because there is something about it that almost looks like you're meditating even though you're moving.

Akram Khan7:27

Even though

Akram Khan7:28

Absolutely. Our teachers were training us to recognize that the space that you enter and you work in is a temple. Um the the katak, because of its structure and and the precision and and the the mathematics and the geometrical structures and all the kind of things that go around defining it, for me, in order to f f find out who I was, I had to master it to a certain extent. I'm not saying I'm a master, but I had to m master it to a certain extent.

Presenter7:58

At how long do people I mean, typically a Katak dancer would would begin to master it, when?

Akram Khan8:03

It it depends on the person. I mean, you know, there was a whole year when I was, I think, seventeen and I wasn't adjusting with school. So I would leave the house in my school uniform and then creep out to the back. My parents would go to work and I'd climb over my back yard and go into my dad's garage and um I would train in the garage for ten hours, then get back in my uniform, come back through the front as if I went to school, and that was for a year.

Presenter8:04

Yeah.

Presenter8:32

Uh Did

Akram Khan8:32

Nobody knows.

Presenter8:32

Post

Akram Khan8:33

Notice that you weren't turning up.

Presenter8:33

Uh Uh

Akram Khan8:34

I was very, very sharp, so I would catch all the mail before they arrived. And then came a mail, but that day my mum was home sick and she got the mail first. So we had to go to parents' evening and I was kind of, you know

Presenter8:45

And the mail was Where Where's Your Son? Was it?

Akram Khan8:48

Uh we need to speak to you in the parents' evening. So they turned up. Uh my parents went up to the teacher and said, Um we're here to you know we're Akram's parents, we're here to speak to you. And he looked down and said, Ah yes, Akram Khan. I don't even know what he looks like, but I'd love to meet him.

Presenter8:50

Yeah.

Presenter9:09

More of that in a second. For now, let's have your second disc of the day, Akram. What are we going to hear now?

Akram Khan9:14

Caitano Velosso, um it's a it's a soundtrack from Talk to Her.

Presenter9:19

And why do you like this?

Akram Khan9:21

You know, I'm a very physical dancer and animalistic in my dance approach. I've always been. And when I heard the song I realized that this guy has a fragility that is extremely powerful in his voice. And I was always under the assumption that fragility is something weak. And so this song gave me permission. The way he sings it gave me permission to realize that actually I in my dance I want to search for that sense of fragility.

Speaker 39:51

Dicen que por las noches, noma seleiva en purollora.

Speaker 310:01

This end cannot come near

Speaker 310:05

No masele ilva en purotoma.

Speaker 310:10

Juran que el mismo sielo sextremesi aloir suianto.

Presenter10:22

Kaitan Volosu and Kukuro Kuku Paloma from Pedro Almodivar's film Talk to Her. So, Akram Khan, let's rewind a little bit. We n we know about you rehearsing in the garage doing the katak dancing for ten hours a day, but but before that we'll rewind to when you were born. It was nineteen seventy four. Uh in the those early years, it was south west London that you lived in with your parents. Your parents had come to Britain from Bangladesh a couple of years earlier. Why did they leave?

Akram Khan10:48

My parents wanted a better education, and my father had dreams of moving to London and uh

Akram Khan10:55

starting a business up. I mean, actually he came to study accountancy, but he wanted to have his own business and he felt he could achieve that in the West. And in Bangladesh it was a it was a real struggle. So, you know, my father came first and then my mother came after and

Presenter11:09

And so to that extent things went well because your father was running his own business. He had his own restaurant. But that's really hard work if it's a one man band.

Akram Khan11:16

And it is, but he he wasn't good at it.

Akram Khan11:20

You know, in all honesty, bless him. He's done it for twenty years and he's he's not a people's person. You know, as a as a restaurant owner, you have to really know how to be w with people. My father's not a great communicator. He's full of warmth and love and people like him a lot, but he's uh I think he should have gone into politics. He loves politics.

Presenter11:26

Does it

Presenter11:40

So he was I mean, that's interesting and very honest if you'd say he wasn't very good at it. Did he come home grumpy every day or w why did you?

Akram Khan11:46

He did. He did, because his business was struggling. But you know he's so determined he stuck with it for twenty years. In the beginning first five years it was doing well and then the last fifteen years it was doing really badly. And um he wanted to provide for his family and so he kept with it.

Presenter12:04

Uh, so what about your mother? What what what are your early memories of her as a mum?

Akram Khan12:09

She she's very special. She's my guide, my spiritual guide I would say. She was very much into poetry. She went to Dhaka University, she studied language, Bengali language, and uh when she came here she just befriended so many people and she was someone who was open. And my father's the opposite, he's closed, he's very protective. My mother is open. In her heart she's very open. And this gave me a lot of courage because I I could have easily have gone my father's way because of the community and the pressure that I had because Bangladeshi people are very academic, um, especially th my parents' generation and they definitely wanted their children to be a lawyer or a doctor. We we all know that and I was kind of pushed to the side a lot in the parties and stuff, so nobody would quite talk to me because, you know, I was more of a dancer which wasn't really serious or respectable and so my mother with her generosity, she she always turned the negativity into positivity.

Presenter13:05

And she had wanted herself at one point as she was growing up to become a dancer, she was interested in dance.

Akram Khan13:08

Come at once.

Akram Khan13:09

Yeah, sh she was a huge fan of dance. But it was very unfortunate for her because her father was this great mathematician, um I think twice gold medalist. I never met him, but I meet uh my parents' friends all over the world and they say, Oh, I studied with your grandfather but my grandfather didn't want his children to dance, which was my mother. He felt that it would bring bad reputation to the family and you know the daughter shouldn't dance. And so she secretly you know the tiffin boxes, they're like these metal lunch boxes. Sort of compartmental brothers, so instead of keeping food in them, they would help her secretly put bells and her dance uniform and costume, and then she would cover up the tiffin box and go to school in her school uniform. And then after that her brothers would escort her to the dance class and then she'd come back in her school uniform. So she wouldn't have eaten all day except her brothers would kind of share food with her. And that was her secret, really. Let's have some music, Akram. What's next? We're on your third.

Presenter13:38

Yeah.

Presenter13:40

Sort of compact mentality.

Akram Khan14:08

Anandudhara. The lyrics are by Robin Druna Tagore, but the song is orchestrated by Zoe and Idris Rahman. It's a song my mother used to sing when I was a child and so when I heard this song, this new modern version, it just reminded me of my childhood with my mother. I was very fragile as a child and my mother would sing me this song to sleep, but just her voice singing this song always made me feel I had some kind of security blanket.

Speaker 314:37

Bohi Chevubone A Nundodhara Bohi Chevubon A Nundodhara Bohi Chevubone

Speaker 315:03

Rosho Yutuli Dhyo Mtogo

Presenter15:11

That was an Ondodara Stream of Joy by Zoe and Idris Raman. There's a wonderful little family video of you, Akram Khan, dancing when you're very, very, very young. Do you know the video I'm talking about?

Akram Khan15:20

Yeah.

Speaker 215:20

Yeah, you can

Speaker 215:21

Yeah.

Akram Khan15:22

Yeah, I can't remember. I think I was six or six, yeah.

Presenter15:23

How old would you be?

Presenter15:27

Right.

Presenter15:28

Can you remember that?

Akram Khan15:29

I would lie if I said I could. Yeah, I I can remember I can remember moments of it. I can't remember the whole experience of it.

Speaker 215:31

Yeah, I can

Presenter15:31

Uh

Presenter15:33

Yeah.

Presenter15:36

What about the experience of watching people watch you? What did that feel like? Because you said, you know, you're quite a timid little boy and a shy boy and a bit insecure. What was it like to be holding people's attention in the same

Akram Khan15:47

Centre of the room.

Akram Khan15:48

It was great. It was great. I mean, you know, it's like being allowed to speak for the first time after however many years. Finding the language that you can speak in and people taking notice of that. It's such a such a uplifting feeling and suddenly the insecurity is immediately filled with confidence. And that's another problem, because then you want everyone's attention all the time. So every dinner party we went to, I said, Mum, are they going to ask me to dance? Are they going to ask me to dance? Like I was this little star. And my mum said, look, it's not really a dinner party, it's a funeral, son. We're here for a funeral. You can't dance. I said, I will do a funeral dance then. I'll do a funeral dance. It will be Michael Jackson, but it'll be a funeral dance. Thriller.

Akram Khan16:31

So it became an addiction.

Presenter16:33

And what about did you have enough self possession to think this is what I'm going to do? Because as you say, growing up in a Bangladeshi community in London where the sense was that there has to be a degree of I mean, actually pretty high academic achievement, did you think I'll always dance, but I'll have to do something else? Or did you think I am going to dance?

Akram Khan16:45

The end

Akram Khan16:51

I'm I'm a bit like a a floating boat, and I kind of go wherever the wind and the river takes me.

Akram Khan16:58

I'm not very courageous in some respects, and I'm very courageous in other respects. I was never courageous to say, I want to do this. I'm a dreamer, and that was my biggest problem as a child. I couldn't sit in front of a desk. But the second I danced, my attention lasted longer than a minute.

Akram Khan17:17

And once I discovered dance I felt like this was my language, this is what I know. However, then to commit to being a dancer

Akram Khan17:27

As a career? No, I didn't I didn't have the courage, but i it came later. Everything happens to me late. My sister is four years younger than me, and she was better than me at everything, and even dance. She was in my class for dance, and she was four years younger. What I had, my talent, which is very little, would be I never gave up and I was super committed. If I loved doing something, I became obsessive about it, I became possessive about it. And so, in a sense, talent doesn't go very far, it is what it is, you can't grow it.

Akram Khan18:03

Hard work, you can continue to grow and so eventually I surpassed my sister.

Presenter18:09

Now how old exactly were you when you actually left home? I mean properly left home?

Akram Khan18:14

Oh, this is embarrassing. I would say thirty two.

Presenter18:16

Hmm.

Presenter18:17

Right.

Akram Khan18:19

Um was that her making

Presenter18:20

Was that her making you stay, or you didn't want to leave your mother?

Akram Khan18:23

Um you know, my house is f full of aunties and uncles. Aunties and uncles who are not even bloody related to me, you know. They're all just family friends, and they sit in these sofas. I mean, we even know which auntie sits on which part of the sofa because there's a dent there, because they stay there for hours and hours gossiping. Farouk, my producer, Farouk Chaudhry, who's who's my close collaborator, we started the company, he's the producer, I'm the artistic director, and we started it together. And ever since the company started, I went on tour. And once I went on tour, you know, after a long journey, say for example from Australia, you don't want to come home to a house full of aunties and uncles and they say, oh, Beta, come here and play doubler with us. You know, we want to sing tonight, all night.

Akram Khan19:10

I had to sit through three hours or or four hours at night after travelling for twenty three hours. I just didn't want to do it any more. And I said, Mum, I'm leaving. So the neighbors, our next door neighbours, were leaving and my father said, Why don't you buy the house next door? You know, we can b break down the wall and put a door there. Any time you want tea, I can just come in. I don't know why I'm doing this accent, but uh anyway. Um so that was that and I said, No, Dad, I'm moving at least one street away. So I moved one street away.

Presenter19:43

Let's have some music then. What are we going to hear now?

Akram Khan19:45

It's a group called Affileta, and it's You Lamento de Gesso, I'm probably saying it wrong. Um spiritual songs have always attracted me for some reason. What's beautiful about the song is that in between the verses is where the spirituality lies.

Presenter20:28

Affiletta and U la Mento Di Diezu. So you were ten years old, then, Akram Khan, when uh the director, Peter Brooke, spotted you. You ended up being in his production of the Mahabharata for for two years. Pretty giddying experience, I imagine.

Akram Khan20:42

Yeah, it was great. Um I think it was ten when I got chosen, but um I was thirteen when you were touring when we started to rehearse in Toria.

Presenter20:46

But

Presenter20:48

When you were touring.

Presenter20:51

And so you were touring all around the world. I mean, you were in LA, Adelaide, Paris, Tokyo, New York. Was that constantly for t

Akram Khan20:59

Two years you were on the road. Almost, yeah. We had breaks, but uh it was pretty heavy. And it's a nine hour play. So it was quite intense for a kid, you know, and and for them, I'm sure, for everyone involved.

Presenter21:10

How often did you see your parents, then?

Akram Khan21:11

Um there was a condition that they allowed my parents to come, one of them, uh every two months or something, so they would spend a few weeks with us.

Presenter21:20

Alright.

Akram Khan21:22

No. No. It's amazing because I'm really a mummy's boy. My mother used to walk me to school until thirteen. She was afraid that I was very fragile. And funnily enough, once I went on tour, I didn't miss them at all. And I miss them now. I'm they're still alive, but I miss every moment that I'm not with them. They are my parents, but slowly this transformation is happening where I'm becoming their parents. And I want to fulfil it in the best possible way I can.

Presenter21:50

What about this idea? It's the second time I think you've used the word fragile to describe yourself as a little boy. Uh your mother walking you to school up to the age of thirteen. Very that's really unusual. Did did she think you you were emotionally fragile? I mean, you couldn't have been physically fragile. You were

Akram Khan22:04

Put it this way, I think my mother was fragile in some ways and very strong at the same time. She found it hard to let go of me. Of course I was fragile because I didn't have many friends. So I um it was really extreme, you know. In school I was very shy. Second I'm on stage in front of hundreds of people, I'm completely shyless. So it's two extremes of of my personality as a child.

Speaker 222:12

Right.

Presenter22:31

And did you feel separate? Were you were you a little boy who who felt apart from what was going on around you?

Akram Khan22:38

Yeah, I did. I did, for for quite a long time. You know, being a dancer also, it's funny because uh my mother was a great encouragement. She just said, um, usually what people find difficult is your strength. Her voice stayed with me and still stays with me.

Presenter22:53

Let's have some more music, Akram Khan. What are we gonna hear now? We're on your uh fifth disc.

Akram Khan22:58

Prince, Sign of the Times. When I just finished the Mahabarat and I came back to London and I discovered Prince and for me Prince was very rebellious. He never wanted to conform and I was going through that rebellious stage. But so Sign of the Times I I like very much because of the words, but I think Prince is a is a great great example of um not conforming.

Presenter22:59

Yeah.

Speaker 323:20

Francis Skinny Man died of a big disease with a little name By chance his girlfriend came across a needle and soon she did the same At home there were 17 year old boys and their ideal

Speaker 323:35

Being in a gang called the disciples high on crack I've told

Presenter23:47

That was Prince and Sign of the Times. You said to me uh a while ago that you know y you can express yourself much more articulately through dance than you can I mean you're clearly a very articulate person, but you but you find that that's the most comfortable way to express yourself is through dance rather than

Akram Khan24:01

It's the most truthful way for me.

Presenter24:02

Yes. I'm I'm thinking now of your there was a production that you did called Desh, which was about your father's homeland, and your father came to see that. What what were you trying to articulate? And do you think he g he got it?

Akram Khan24:08

Hmm.

Akram Khan24:10

Boof.

Akram Khan24:14

Um no, he didn't get it, I think. My dad's an interesting character. I mean, he sees everything through what relates to him. So, um that's okay, that's interesting. My mother's the exact opposite. She sees the world from your perspective. Um and I think I have more of my father, which is a real problem. I want to be more of my mother, but I think I end up being more of my father. And I think he was a bit sad when he saw the show, because in the beginning of the show, I'm by his f you know, his his burial. And he was a bit disappointed, like, you know, this God, I'm dead already, so where do I exist in this piece? You know, I thought I was the star. By the end, he realized it was about him. So he got it, but in the r not the way I want him to get it. Um it's not about just him, it's about what he wants his children to have. And I think that's what they fear the most somehow.

Akram Khan25:07

and desire the most is that

Akram Khan25:09

Will our children carry a part of their you know their memories? And that means a lot to them because I feel they're quite isolated.

Akram Khan25:17

When they moved over in the early seventies, they brought with them a memory.

Akram Khan25:22

And they brought that and they implanted it in London and they stayed inside that memory, that world. So the community were very self-preserved. And now when they go back to Bangladesh, they're kind of you know, somebody stripped them up. That's what it feels like, because it's an MTV world now in Bangladesh. It's an MTV world in India. It's not the same that it was in the seventies. The same value systems aren't there. The same pace of life is not there. It's moved on. But they really thought that it was going to be the same. And so in a sense, they're between two worlds. I think a lot of my

Akram Khan25:58

Work comes from is drawn from my experience with my family.

Presenter26:03

And what does your father particularly make of that?

Akram Khan26:07

He doesn't really care, he just wants newspapers. My poor office is inundated with my father calling up every once a week, usually. He stopped now,'cause I had to really ask him to stop. But he would call up once a week and said, Have you sent that recent copy of The Guardian? And, you know, the office has so much to do.

Presenter26:26

And when he's when he's reading The Guardian and and reading your reviews in The Guardian, which I assume he does, does does he does he care about that? Does he praise you for being a dancer of world renown?

Akram Khan26:35

We're older than I look. No, he doesn't praise me at all. I love that about him. That's the one thing good thing about him. He never praises me to myself. It's amazing. I walk off the stage and I, you know, Saddler's Wells and there's lo loads of people and they say, Oh, I met your father. They all know my father. He just talks to everyone there and says, This is my son. He's gonna perform. I'm his father. I'm his father. So my father.

Presenter26:38

Mm-hmm.

Akram Khan26:59

in a sense, in a beautiful way, but also in a tragic way, lives his dreams through me.

Akram Khan27:06

Does it make sense? It does.

Presenter27:07

Let's have some music then. Uh we're on your uh sixth choice.

Akram Khan27:13

You know, I was born and brought up in London, southwest London. London's a very special place because it's chaotic, it's full of so many different cultures, energies, different languages. You really have to be on another gear. And this is the only music that brings me down to tranquillity. And it was also my wedding song.

Presenter28:32

Part of Arvo Pert Spiegel im Spiegel, performed by Wadim Gluzmann and Angela Joffy, and you said that was uh your wedding song. It was, yeah. Must have been a very gentle wedding with that music.

Akram Khan28:39

It was, yeah.

Akram Khan28:42

Yeah, it was um chosen both by my wife and myself, yeah. We we always feel very tranquil when we hear this song.

Presenter28:52

You've collaborated, I said in the introduction, you've sort of almost seemed to be a compulsive collaborator, some very interesting people, probably not unexpectedly. Sylvie Guillaume, the Prima Ballerina, but also you choreographed a piece called In Eye with Juliette Banoche, the Oscar winning actress, o obviously not a dancer.

Akram Khan29:10

Yeah.

Presenter29:11

A difficult process?

Akram Khan29:13

It was very challenging, yes, in all honesty.

Speaker 229:15

Uh

Presenter29:15

That covers a multitude, doesn't it? Very challenging.

Akram Khan29:18

We learnt a lot, both of us. Um we're very strong headed people. Um she's very uh very strong and determined and so am I and and we had different ways of looking at the work because we come from different backgrounds. So we both compromise. But collaboration is always compromise. And marriage is a compromise, but it's a compromise by choice because you know you want that.

Presenter29:42

And what about moving from the more avant-garde to the populist? I'm thinking now you choreographed part of Clayman Oak's Showgirl tour. How did that go?

Akram Khan29:50

It was fun, it was a lot of fun. Because when you choreograph a piece of work, in all honesty, I I've never experienced labor pain, uh giving birth to a child. From what women tell me, I feel it's the same thing. And then the child is born, the your piece is born, and then the crying starts.

Akram Khan30:12

And you realize the work has huge problems. And the audience are crying and the critics are r writing and you know, you realize yourself that there's a l this is not over yet and this is just the beginning. So Kylie's project was a heaven. I really liked her as a person. She was everything that I didn't expect. She was not a diva at all. She was very human and

Akram Khan30:36

Very simple in many ways, but in a beautiful way. Time for some more music, Akram Khan. What do we

Presenter30:41

Uh

Akram Khan30:42

Left field. There's nothing profound about this music. If I'm really tired in the morning and I know I have to go and do the same warm-up, this is the only music. It's like a bit like equivalent to Rocky for men who go to the gym. Well, my assumption is they're listening to Rocky, you know, the theme tune. So this is my version of Rocky.

Presenter31:34

That was Left Fueled and Fat Planet. Um you live a street away then now from your parents. A whole street away, you've actually. Do you think are you a difficult person to live with?

Akram Khan31:45

You have to ask my wife about that. What

Presenter31:47

What do you think she'd say if I did?

Akram Khan31:48

Um I am. Yeah. I think she would she would say I am. No, I am difficult. I'm just I'm just working all the time. It's very hard for me to switch off from work. But my wife is great. She's Japanese in the best sense. She knows when I have to switch off and she will make me switch off, trust me. So it's great because it allows me to breathe.

Presenter31:50

Yeah.

Speaker 231:59

Hmm.

Akram Khan32:11

My wife is a great saviour, but I'm difficult to live with, of course I am. And is she a dancer too? Is she involved in the same industry? She's a Kathak dancer. She's stopped now, but she she is a wonderful Kathak dancer. I was mentoring her actually.

Presenter32:23

Right. And so you you don't have children yet. Does your life sort of revolve around dance? Do you wake up thinking about it? Do you go to sleep at night thinking about it? Do you wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it?

Akram Khan32:34

No, I wake up thinking about my wife. I wa I go to sleep thinking about my wife. During the day I think about my work.

Presenter32:41

That seems about the right balance. So I'm going to I'm going to send you then to uh to this island and you will be alone. How on earth will you cope alone? Do you think you'll be good with your own company?

Akram Khan32:43

Um

Akram Khan32:54

Uh no.

Akram Khan32:57

No, I don't think I would. I'm terrified of being alone. I'm terrified of confronting myself. I think that's that's the one thing I'm very terrified of.

Presenter33:05

Why is that?

Akram Khan33:06

I don't know. I've always been. I can be alone for about an hour.

Akram Khan33:10

But longer than that I I n I need to communicate. I need to um I'm okay when I'm dancing. I can practise in a studio for hours and hours. Um I suppose if I'm on the island, if you give me a dance floor, I'll be fine, because I'll have my com my companion is my dance.

Presenter33:29

Let's have your final choice, then, Akram. What are we going to hear?

Akram Khan33:32

It's by Gavin Bryars. Uh Jesus' Blood Has Never Failed Me. This is a very profound song, I have to say. Um it was Gavin Bryers who recorded this um Homeless Man and um I come predominantly from the classical world. We're always trying to achieve perfection in the classical world. But I by hearing this song I realized the power of imperfection. He doesn't sing in perfect tune, but there's a truth. His words have weight because he's living it. He's lived it. And it's coming from a very deep place and this song really reflects that moment of me being awakened to um the power of imperfection.

Speaker 334:16

Jesus blood never found me yet.

Speaker 334:23

Never found me yet.

Speaker 334:27

Jesus Blood

Speaker 334:29

Never found over me yet.

Speaker 334:34

This one thing I know, For he loves me so.

Speaker 334:42

Jesus blood never found me yet.

Presenter34:49

That was Gavin Bryars, and Jesus' blood never failed me yet. So we come to the moment now, Akram Kham, where I'm going to give you the books. Traditionally, it's the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare. I don't would you prefer the Koran, or would you like the Bible? I'd love the Quran. Okay, so the Koran, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you also get to take a book of your own along to the island. What book would you like to take?

Akram Khan35:04

Okay.

Akram Khan35:13

Ah, um how can I say two? No, one.

Presenter35:17

No, it's gotta be one.

Akram Khan35:20

Uh we're collaborating here.

Presenter35:22

I'm trying to come back.

Speaker 235:23

But I

Akram Khan35:23

Yeah.

Speaker 235:23

And collaboratively reveal that you will not get to take two minutes.

Presenter35:27

Uh

Speaker 235:27

Yeah.

Presenter35:27

Yeah.

Akram Khan35:28

One, it would probably be um Arun Dutti Roy.

Akram Khan35:31

God of small things.

Presenter35:32

Indeed, we shall give you that. And a luxury, too. You're allowed something on this island that makes life just a little bit more bearable. What would you take as your luxury?

Akram Khan35:42

I would probably take

Akram Khan35:45

Uh my skipping rope.

Presenter35:47

Ah, not your bells, I wonder.

Akram Khan35:49

No. No. No. I think my my skipping rope has been my saviour recently. Okay. Not my bells.

Presenter35:53

Not my bells. Right, we shall allow you the skipping rope then. And if you had to save just one of the eight discs from the waves, which one would you pick?

Akram Khan36:02

Avoid.

Presenter36:03

Okay, it's yours, Akram Khan. Thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Akram Khan36:06

Thank you so much.

Presenter36:43

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4.