Martina Navratilova

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:35

My castaway this week is Martina Navratilova. Her career in tennis is unparalleled, and her life off the court has been equally eventful. She was only eighteen when she defected from Czechoslovakia, playing at the highest level for the next thirty years. Her last Grand Slam victory was just a few weeks short of her fiftieth birthday. She has said, My father told me about tennis, told me to play aggressively, like a boy. I already did. To take a chance, invent shots. He told me I would win Wimbledon some day. I believed that part. So, Martina Navratilova, you have picked up fifty-nine Grand Slam wins in an astonishing career. How old were you when your father told you that you would one day win Wimbledon?

Martina Navratilova1:16

Well, I think it was around seven, eight, nine, you know, uh maybe eight, nine,'cause I really didn't have a beforehand until I was seven,'cause I was too little. I played with a my grandmother's racket and it was too big to hold with one hand, so I had to just hit two hundred backhands. And when I could finally hold it with one hand, that's when I we got on the court. But I mean, the passion was always there. But uh I think my father realized that I was amazingly uh gifted. My left arm, he called it my golden arm, the golden arm. He just thought that I had the talent, you know, he kind of saw it early on.

Presenter1:45

And when he said that you'd win Wimbledon, you know, we tend to seven, eight, nine, we pretty much believe most things our parents tell us. Did you believe him when he told you that?

Martina Navratilova1:51

Did you believe?

Martina Navratilova1:53

Well, I I thought it was possible. I once I again realized that I was gifted and that things came easily to me on an athletic level as well as academic, I'm like, well, maybe, we'll see, you know? And I saw Gwenblood on T V. I'm like, I want to win that tournament one day.

Speaker 32:03

Nope.

Presenter2:09

I was looking back at the footage of your first win. That was in nineteen seventy eight. You were aged twenty one. You were playing against Chris Erbert. I'm sure you weren't thinking about the seventeen thousand pounds that you just won. But at that moment, what were you thinking? What was going through your head?

Martina Navratilova2:12

You were

Martina Navratilova2:21

Well it's pretty funny because I think that's what they get for losing in the first round this year. £17,000. Of course it was never about the money. It was nice, but it was all about winning that title. And on that first moment when you won, wh where were your parents? Well my family couldn't be with me because I defected in 1975 and my family couldn't travel to me. I couldn't well I could travel to them but I would never get out again so that was not an option. And at the time I didn't even know if my parents were able to see it on T V. As it turned out they did watch it on German T V. They drove to the German border in Pilsen in the West Czech Republic and ended up watching it on T V'cause of course the regular Czech T V wouldn't show it because I was a persona non grata in those days. And then I spoke to them on the phone maybe a couple of hours later. Can you remember what I'm imagining what your family was?

Presenter3:06

Father said

Martina Navratilova3:07

Absolutely. Well, they were thrilled. I mean, it was very emotional and and sad, you know, because that's what I regret when I see Petrak Vitova was playing on Tuesday.

Presenter3:07

Absolutely.

Martina Navratilova3:18

Uh

Martina Navratilova3:20

Betra's parents were watching her from the royal box, you know.

Martina Navratilova3:24

And I never had

Presenter3:26

That's a huge thing to have because with with your father you'd made that struggle with him. You you know, everything that it had taken, all his dedication as well as yours to.

Martina Navratilova3:36

About that. It was just about being with your family, the people that you love and uh

Presenter3:39

Okay.

Martina Navratilova3:40

And that's what I'll never forgive the Communists for, that you destroyed so many lives

Martina Navratilova3:44

You can never get those years back.

Presenter3:46

Of course. We're going to take a break for some music. So, the first one today that you have chosen is Lady Gaga, Punchy Track. Why have you chosen this?

Martina Navratilova3:54

Well, it's happy music. The song came out when I was in the beginning of my relationship and it was pretty rocky at the beginning, so it kind of um you know resonated with me for that reason. But I think it's a fantastic song, regardless of the words. It's just an amazing, amazing song. I saw Lady Gaga in concert. I had actually a fabulous music week with my girlfriend, Julia.

Martina Navratilova4:17

As a surprise, first we went to a musical. We saw Priscilla, which is very uplifting, very very fun. And then two days later, as a surprise, I did not tell her, we saw Tosca in the Met. And that was fantastic. Then three days later, we saw Lady Gaga in Orlando. And that was a week from heaven. It was a very expensive week, but it was fun.

Speaker 44:39

Rah ra

Speaker 44:41

Roma, Roma, gaga, oula, la dyobe, romance.

Speaker 44:53

Y'all like

Speaker 44:54

Want your baron, I want your ugly, I want your disease I want your everything as long as it's free, I want your love

Speaker 45:06

Love, love, love, I want your

Presenter5:09

That was Lady Gaga and Bad Romance. Just looking at your list here today, Martina Navratilova, there are some very big, strong, powerful women in it, some big divas. Does that tell us something about you? Are you something of a diva?

Martina Navratilova5:17

Bye.

Martina Navratilova5:22

Well, I I'd like to think of myself as a powerful woman, but not much of a diva, because I'm pretty low maintenance, so as I think most people that know me well will tell you.

Presenter5:30

What about your competitive nature? Are you one of those sports people who is incapable of not competing? If you're playing a game of, I don't know, snakes and ladders or something, are you the one that has to win? Is it just in you, in your soul?

Martina Navratilova5:42

I am very competitive, but it's it's more with myself than with the person that I'm playing against. Because if they're really, really good and I have no chance of winning, I don't throw in the towel. I still try to make it as close as possible to get the most out of myself.

Martina Navratilova5:56

But of course, nobody goes on the court saying I want to lose today.

Martina Navratilova6:00

You know, I was competitive with myself all the time.

Presenter6:02

What about in in 1987 you played Steffi Graf and won your eighth Wimbledon title and then the next year she beat you. What did that feel like?

Martina Navratilova6:08

Mm-hmm.

Martina Navratilova6:10

Well, I I was pretty beat up physically. You know, I was I was lucky that I ac ended up getting to the finals and then I I was astonished that I won the first set and then I ran out and my my legs gave out on me. But uh she you know, it was passing of the torch. I knew that was gonna happen. I just was trying to prolong it as as much as possible. But uh you know, she was uh what, ten years younger.

Martina Navratilova6:31

You know, that was the next generation, so I knew my time was coming to an end.

Presenter6:34

What about the build up before a big Grand Slam final? You know, the n the night before. Are you somebody who suffers? Do you get anxiety, dreams? Do you worry? Not at all. I slept like a baby.

Martina Navratilova6:42

Were it all

Martina Navratilova6:44

Uh

Martina Navratilova6:45

All the homework has been done. This is what you live for, really. This is what you want. So it's not something to dread and be afraid of. This is what all the practices were about, all the times in the gym and thinking about the strategy and working on your technique and

Martina Navratilova6:59

going to a restaurant and only eating what you should be eating, not having the second glass of wine or even no wine at all, playing in a final was what all that work was for. So that was exciting. So I slept like a baby.

Presenter7:10

And so you say this is what you live for. What do you live for now? What's your driving passion?

Martina Navratilova7:13

And it stunts your growth, your emotional, I think, and mental development definitely not not stunted, but it just goes a different direction and you don't develop the same way that people do when they

Presenter7:34

And he don't

Martina Navratilova7:37

Go through high school, go through college, and then get a job. And you know, it's their path of life. There is a sequence to it. And with athletes, the sequence gets totally upside down. So when I quit, I was going through something emotionally that most people go through when they're eighteen, twenty years old. Really having the time for personal relationships, developing friendships and taking the time with everybody, not always rushing through the next practice, through the next tournament, etc. So I I think I've caught up by now, but but it took a while to really figure out what was going on.

Presenter8:10

Uh

Presenter8:11

Let's have some more music then. Your your second disc of the day is what? Tell me about that.

Martina Navratilova8:14

Second disc is Maria Carlas.

Martina Navratilova8:18

I read her biography a few years ago, well, a few decades ago now. She just seems such a passionate personality and and she was. And I read her book and I I cried because she had such a sad, sad life on a personal level.

Martina Navratilova8:33

Just felt really sorry for her. I felt like she never.

Martina Navratilova8:36

She never was happy, yet she just put out so much when she was singing. And so I could relate to her, I guess, on an emotional level. Her voice is not the best in the world, but it certainly is the most colorful and the one that you feel the most, I think, when you hear it.

Speaker 38:58

Please be in a single

Martina Navratilova9:05

I'm yeah.

Speaker 49:09

Le par bien autre ceutre de je pere

Martina Navratilova9:13

Peace.

Speaker 49:17

The Lord Yardy medium of blessed

Speaker 49:32

Uh

Presenter9:36

Maria Kallas singing La Mour et anne noiseaux rebelle, Love is a rebellious bird from Carmen by Bizet with the orchestra of the National Theatre of the Opera in Paris conducted by Georges Rêtre. So we're going to take a little trip back. We're going to go back to Czechoslovakia. It was 1956 that you were born. What are your earliest memories of life at home?

Martina Navratilova9:57

I was on in the mountains. I grew up in the Kirkonisha mountains because my father was a keeper on a lodge. And so my mom was there with him. And then my parents divorced. I was about three and a half, four years old. So I remember my first memories are on skis and in the lodge, cutting my hair with a friend.

Martina Navratilova10:16

We were like three years old and and found scissors and just cut the hair and I remember my hair. You were cutting your own hair. Yeah, our each other's.

Presenter10:20

You were cutting your own room.

Martina Navratilova10:25

Yes, the classic cut. My mother was still so upset, and I still remember that. And I was I was less than three years old.

Presenter10:30

So your parents divorced when you were very young. Did you see your the man who was your your fa technically your father? Did you see him afterwards?

Martina Navratilova10:36

I I saw him about once or twice a year. He would come for a visit.

Martina Navratilova10:39

It was a whole all day trip to get there, even though now in a car it would be about an hour and a half, but didn't have a car, so he took the bus and the train and the tram and he walked and uh anyway, so we would see each other maybe once or twice a year and then he stopped coming.

Martina Navratilova10:53

When I was nine years old and finally I said, Mom, where is th you know, where's my father? And uh she said, Oh, he he passed away, you know, a year ago. Mom wasn't very good about telling me bad news, so she kind of kept it away from me for as long as possible. Turns out he killed himself over a woman that he was in love with who left him. So that's where I got the emotional part. Although I never came close to wanting to end it all. I've I'm very emotional like my father was. But I I had my stepfather really became my father.

Presenter11:00

Yeah.

Presenter11:12

Right.

Presenter11:23

And why di do you think your mother didn't tell you because she was protecting you or she wasn't sure how to tell you or?

Martina Navratilova11:28

I think protection. My mom was very good about running away from bad news and uh she just didn't want to tell me, you know. She finally told me when I kept asking.

Presenter11:37

And the man who you went on to call Dad, the man who was there with the tennis racket and telling you to, you know, play the unusual shots and give it all you had, you got on well with him from the beginning.

Martina Navratilova11:39

A new

Martina Navratilova11:43

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova11:45

Oh, absolutely. No, that's how that's how my parents met. My stepfather, Mirek. The club that I played in in in my home town, there was four courts and you had to make the courts, fix the courts every spring, you know, pull the weeds and roll them and then put clay on them.

Martina Navratilova11:59

My stepfather was there on a wheelbarrow. He would take the clay to the court and then when he was going back with the empty wheelbarrow to the pile of clay I would get in the wheelbarrow. You know, he would take me around on the wheelbarrow.

Martina Navratilova12:09

And he's like, oh, you're always smiling. You know, what's your name? Where's your mom? That's how they met.

Presenter12:14

Okay, and the I've heard that there's no words in Czech for tomboy, is that right?

Martina Navratilova12:18

Uh, no, I was definitely a tomboy. Always, always. Always wanted short hair, always hated wearing skirts. To this day, I will not wear a skirt except when I play tennis. In in a skirt, you can't run properly. Catching a train, catching a tram, riding a bicycle, it just skirts the

Presenter12:20

You always

Presenter12:32

And as a little girl, I mean of course you became famous for this incredibly honed, powerful physique as a tennis player. As a little girl, that must have been evident too. You must have looked very athletic.

Martina Navratilova12:42

I was very athletic from the get-go, and of course I ran everywhere, rode the bike, and swam in the river and skated on it in the winter. I was just very, very active, and I had the muscles. In third grade, the teacher was explaining how the bicep works, and she picked me to show it to the class, because I had more defined biceps than the boys. Go figure.

Presenter13:03

Is it true that you beat your mum at tennis when you were nine?

Martina Navratilova13:06

I was about and I thought I was a little older. At nine when I beat my grandmother, who was also a player. Then I think I was closer to twelve when I beat my mom for the first time. And then about a year and a half, two years later, I beat my dad for the first time. And so I knew I was on my way.

Presenter13:10

Okay.

Martina Navratilova13:20

Yeah.

Presenter13:20

We're going to have some more music then, Martina Navratilova. We're on your third choice of the day. T tell us what you've chosen and why.

Martina Navratilova13:20

We're gonna have

Martina Navratilova13:26

Abba, oh, dancing queen. I mean, ugh.

Martina Navratilova13:29

Classic. First time I I started travelling was about 71, 72 when I started going out west. It was a junior tournament and my my friend and teammate Reyna Tatomanova had ABBA C D or C D um tape back then of course. So you felt very international and very made me feel grown up, like we belong because we we were cool with the music that was going on out west. And it's happy music. It just puts you in a good mood every time.

Speaker 314:02

Hey woo see that girl, watch that sea digging for dancing queen.

Presenter14:17

That was of course Appa and Dancing Queen. You were thirteen then when you left uh Czechoslovakia for the first time uh for a tournament in the West. What do you remember about that first hit of the West?

Martina Navratilova14:22

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova14:27

Oh, that was in Germany and big cars. It was close to a um American army base. So there were a lot of old Chevrolets and Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs.

Martina Navratilova14:38

And I've never seen a cart like it. I just thought it was amazing. And and then the food.

Martina Navratilova14:43

the variety and and things that you've never seen before.

Martina Navratilova14:47

You never saw fresh pineapple. And did it make you think, I want a bit of

Presenter14:50

This, this feels good.

Martina Navratilova14:53

I I didn't feel that I was not getting what I needed in Czechoslovakia and was never hungry, I was never cold, but I wanted to kind of experience it all. To this day, if I go to a shop and I see a fruit I've never seen before, I buy it. I have to check it out.

Presenter15:07

And in that same year then, you you would have seen I think you did in fact literally see with your own eyes Soviet tanks rolling in to Czechoslovakia. Tell me what you saw and what you remember.

Martina Navratilova15:17

That was the year before. That was 68. I think we went to Germany in 1969. So the tanks came first and.

Martina Navratilova15:24

Wow, it was it was extremely depressing. It's like you're in jail and you're almost on the other side of the wall and then boom, another huge wall shows up and you know you're never gonna get out of the prison. And that's what it felt like. I was at a tennis tournament with my then best friend, but they had a phone and the phone rang in the morning and it was Virka's father calling saying don't go outside, there's tanks in the streets. So of course we went outside and checked it out and you know we're throwing rocks at the tanks, but it wasn't very helpful.

Presenter15:52

You were playing on professional tour in America in 1975 when you sought political asylum. Tell tell me about that. How did that work?

Martina Navratilova15:59

My family, we were actually out at Wumbleden in 1975, the whole family, my parents and my sister, who is six years younger, and we were talking about leaving Czechoslovakia, but my father was not sure of himself. What is he going to do? How is he going to provide? He doesn't speak English, you know. So we didn't do it. And then we went back to the Czech Republic about a week later and there was a tennis tournament there. So we stopped because we knew some people there and we stopped.

Martina Navratilova16:25

at the tournament and they said, Oh my god, you're back

Martina Navratilova16:28

'Cause rumor had it we defected. But because of that they didn't wanna let me out of the country again. The US Open is coming around the corner and they said, Oh, but you're not going to the open because we don't want you to travel anymore. It's like, What? So the Czech Tennis Federation got behind me and they ended up giving me the visa just before the tournament and that's when I knew I wasn't gonna come back because I never knew whether they were gonna let me out again.

Presenter16:51

Given the conditions at home, were you free to? Did you feel free enough to have that conversation with your parents? Did you say?

Martina Navratilova16:56

Oh yeah, yeah. I spoke well, I spoke to my father and uh he said, Don't tell your mother and he said, If you're not gonna come back, don't come back if we ask you to. If you stay, stay. Even because they may ask us to tell you to come back, but don't. Yeah.

Presenter17:08

Why did he want you to not tell your mother?

Martina Navratilova17:10

Oh, because he knew that would just break her heart.

Presenter17:15

And so I I've never spoken to anybody who's sought political asylum. What actually happened?

Martina Navratilova17:18

What actually happens? What do you do? It was funny because um funny not funny, haha, i ironic. I I was in playing the US Open and it was I talked to my manager and we decided after I'm out of the tournament we will do this. So he put he knew what to do. Well, you know, everything. A bunch of people asked me a bunch of questions if I was a communist, if my father was a communist and I assured them that I was not and my father actually got

Martina Navratilova17:43

thrown out of the Communist Party because he was not towing the line and you know, my parents did like labor camp, not hard labor, but they did both were political kind of prisoners in a way, et cetera. And so I convinced them that I that really was not a Communist. I want to be number one, that's all I remember saying. I just want to be number one.

Presenter18:02

You said that the conversation you had with your father was that he said, you know, if we ask you to come back, don't come back. We'll be saying that because pressure will be put on us. Did you have that conversation with your father?

Martina Navratilova18:03

Conversation

Martina Navratilova18:10

It's on the

Martina Navratilova18:11

We did speak, of course, but they never asked me to come back, so I I was never put in that position.

Martina Navratilova18:18

It was just my mom was so sad, you know,'cause we never knew when we would see each other again. It turned out it was four years before I saw my mother and it was five years before I saw my father and my sister. And how do you think that affected you at the time?

Martina Navratilova18:30

I think it affected them more than me, because I was kind of in control of what I was doing. I was doing what I wanted to do. But uh you're at that age where you're ready for the world. You know, I was eighteen, nineteen years old. You go to college and if you don't see your parents for a year, it's not a big deal. Except it was in that big I couldn't go back.

Martina Navratilova18:47

It was difficult.

Presenter18:49

Okay, let's have some more music then, Martina. We are on your fourth choice of the day. Tell us what we're going to hear.

Martina Navratilova18:56

Pavarotti, on esundorma, yes. Well

Martina Navratilova18:59

Classic. I actually um arranged um tickets for my mother to see Pavarotti at the Met in New York and she had a picture taken with him, signed. He was her hero. So I think this is a tribute to my mom.

Speaker 419:24

Worthy spirits on.

Speaker 419:32

But I realise that I use my birth.

Speaker 319:32

But I feel this bad I feel

Speaker 419:39

I renounces a law.

Speaker 319:39

Hooray!

Martina Navratilova19:40

In their fool.

Speaker 419:57

Uh

Speaker 420:08

Mua

Presenter20:13

Luciano Pavarotti singing Nessendorma from Turin dot by Puccini with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Zubin Meta. I have an image of you, Martina Navratilova, in a in a white convertible core niche, driving through in the sunshine of America

Martina Navratilova20:22

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova20:25

Thanks for your time.

Presenter20:27

Living the American Dream. And on the other hand, I read, and I'm quoting directly here, you say you are a walking candidate for a nervous breakdown, overweight and overwrought. That was about your first few years in America.

Martina Navratilova20:38

I I well, I think that was in seventy six when um I had put on weight the very first time I came to the States was seventy three and in two weeks I put on twenty pounds'cause I just ate everything in sight. And so in seventy six I still had it. So I was about twenty pounds overweight, maybe twenty five. And that's what was a year after I had left Czechoslovakia. I lost at the US Open the first round. I was burned out from tennis and I was exhausted. I didn't have anybody to turn to. I didn't have any place to go.

Martina Navratilova21:08

I couldn't go back to my family.

Presenter21:09

Emily. When you look back at that, you know, the amount of pressure to be there, a person, you know, quite literally on their own, it's quite amazing that you manage to keep your head above water. I mean, that's a very very you know, to be asked to go out there to win your psychologically everything has to be in tune and in place.

Martina Navratilova21:21

You have

Martina Navratilova21:25

Where do you go for help? You know, I didn't know what to do. I didn't have a coach for five years. I was without a coach. After I left my country, my uh father had been my coach and I didn't get a coach until nineteen eighty one when uh Renee Richards started helping me. I didn't think I needed one. You know, I thought, Oh, I can do this. Uh, people only had coaches in their hometown, but I didn't have one because I left my hometown.

Presenter21:44

How were you treated by other people on the tour? You know, there you were a very young woman, you say y you didn't have a coach, bit of an odd name, do it you know, how did people get on with you? Did they get on with you?

Martina Navratilova21:54

Oh yeah, I got along w with everybody. Billie Jean called me a Yankee, and she said I was born in America. I just uh you know had to make my way over there. I got on with everybody because I was very easygoing, still am, on the rain delays here at in at Wimbledon we would play backhand or boggle and and talk and watch T V and and uh laugh you know, that's when I started getting the British humor and uh we used to hang out together, go out to dinner together.

Martina Navratilova22:19

etcetera. So we all got along just fine.

Presenter22:21

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova22:21

And when did your family when

Presenter22:22

When were they able to come and visit you for the first time?

Martina Navratilova22:24

Well, my mom came in'seventy nine, the Duchess of Kent actually intervened'cause she read the story how in'seventy eight when I won't I couldn't be with my family.

Martina Navratilova22:32

So she apparently implored the Czech government to let uh let my parents out and they made a concession and let my mother out for Wimbledon.

Presenter22:40

Your grandmother came over to visit. What what did she make of America? Did she enjoy herself?

Martina Navratilova22:45

My grandmother I think was most astonished by the remote control.

Martina Navratilova22:49

We did not know that it existed. You know, she would just sit there and change the channels and you know, she didn't speak she spoke German and of course Czech, but she didn't speak English, but she just liked watching T V and changing the channels. She was so amazing.

Presenter23:02

Uh

Presenter23:03

We're gonna have some more music. Uh tell us what's next. We're on your fifth of the day.

Martina Navratilova23:07

Okay, that would be Ella Fitzgerald. And you say I picked strong women and divas but uh divas in the good sense of the word of uh being amazing singers. And the song is um Love is Here to Stay. I mean uh when all else fails, love will be around.

Speaker 423:22

It's very clear Our love is here to stay

Speaker 423:34

Not for a year.

Speaker 423:39

But ever and a day

Martina Navratilova23:39

Whatever at

Speaker 423:46

The radio and the telephone and the movies that we know may just be passing fancies and in time may go

Speaker 424:09

Bethel, the third of all my dear.

Speaker 424:15

Our love is here to stay.

Presenter24:21

That was Ella Fitzgerald and Love is here to stay. So Martina Navratilova, I was going to say in 1981 you came out, but you didn't come out. You were outed. Were you?

Martina Navratilova24:30

Well, I was outed, but I wanted to come out years before, but I couldn't. It would be a disqualifier for becoming a US citizen. They may still give it to you, but they may say, No, we're not going to give it to you because you're not a wanted person here. So I kept quiet. And then in 81, I wanted to after I got my citizenship, except my then-girlfriend was in the closet, and she was well known, Nancy Lieberman, a basketball player, and she didn't want to come out then. But then a reporter outed me anyway. When I said, I don't want to talk about it, for that reason, and also for the fact that the WTA said, you know, we can't have any more scandals about sexuality because there was a scandal with Billie Jean King. And I would have been coming on the heels of that. So the WTA said, we don't want you to come out. So to this reporter, I said, I can't come out because it would really hurt our sponsors.

Presenter24:52

And she didn't want to be able to do it.

Martina Navratilova25:17

And then the headline says, Martina, I doesn't want to come out because it would hurt the sponsors. I mean, really. So that's how I was outed. But I wanted to come out. I just it was other people that were kind of keeping me in the closet.

Presenter25:27

What was the response then of people within the tennis establishment and also I'm thinking of spectators too.

Martina Navratilova25:32

Uh

Presenter25:33

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova25:33

The It didn't the sponsors didn't walk away. It didn't affect anything on that front. The players knew, of course, everybody knew how it go was gay, so that was no

Martina Navratilova25:40

No revelation to them

Martina Navratilova25:42

And my family had already known, so it wasn't a surprise to anybody. And it was a relief in a way,'cause now I I didn't have to not answer the question that was always asked of the women players, straight or gay. It wasn't ever ever that I wanted to be lying about it, so I just we wouldn't answer the question when I was asked before.

Presenter26:00

You say that your parents were absolutely fine about it. They that was straightforward, was it?

Martina Navratilova26:04

No, not initially. Initially they were upset, but then my father read some books about it and uh educated himself and he realized it wasn't his doing, it wasn't my doing, it was just I was born. I mean he accepted that and he just wanted me to be happy. And same for my mom, she was more worried about my choices of of partners, which some of them were not very nice, but uh she just wanted me to be happy and have a have a good happy life, that's all. As far as the fans, that was difficult because I definitely got some jeers and boos and whistles that I wouldn't have gotten had I been straight.

Martina Navratilova26:33

You also said

Presenter26:33

I believe in freedom of the press, but what about freedom from the press? I mean, it'd be fair to say that your relationships throughout the years have taken up a lot of column inches. Very, very well documented. Whenever you have a breakup, if you have a new partner, you know, you have been subjected to the pressure.

Martina Navratilova26:37

On the press.

Martina Navratilova26:46

If you have any

Martina Navratilova26:48

Or if they sue me, which happened a few times. Yeah, that's what's difficult about uh being a public person. I I mean, I I never had a chance. I left a communist country and defected. That's controversial. And then being gay again through no doing of my own, I'm controversial by just being. So that's the cards that I

Presenter27:04

Many same sex couples now and same sex couples with very high public profiles do have children. Is that something that you ever thought about? Because I'm thinking that that the years when you could have had children coincided with your Grand Slam years.

Martina Navratilova27:16

I'm pretty much. And those years are gone. I'm I'm well into menopause now, so that ship has sailed. Yeah, I I never got the opportunity to really have a child, but now I'm in a in a relationship with my partner, and she has two girls, and so yeah, so I'm a parent.

Presenter27:32

Okay, how are you finding that?

Martina Navratilova27:34

It's difficult, two girls, but uh it's fun. Yeah, it's amazing. Let's have some more music then. What are we gonna hear now?

Presenter27:40

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova27:40

And that would be Katie Lang and Roy Orbison. I love both of their voices. I think I have every song that Katie Lang ever sang, and Roy Orbison voice of an angel. And so the two of them coming together with a very emotional song is about as good as it gets.

Speaker 427:55

That I bring the cry

Speaker 428:00

Over

Speaker 428:03

Right.

Speaker 428:07

Oh pray you.

Speaker 428:09

Then you said so long.

Speaker 428:15

Left me standing.

Speaker 428:19

Hollow them all.

Presenter28:22

Alone and crying.

Presenter28:25

That was Katie Lang and Roy Orbison and Crying. So, Martina, your final championship win then came just a few weeks short of your fiftieth birthday. It was two thousand six. You won the mixed doubles at the US Open. You've had this extraordinary career that has spanned decades from Billie Jean King right up to the Williams Sisters. When you look at that body of work, when you look at that achievement, do you allow yourself a few moments of satisfaction?

Martina Navratilova28:48

For the body of work, yes, there were moments that I wish I had done better, I could have done differently, but overall, Jesus, you know, I never thought that would happen. I mean, you don't go into playing tennis thinking you're gonna have a Hall of Fame career. First I wanted to win Wimbledon, then I wanted to be number one, then I wanted to be one of the greatest of all time, and all that happened. So, you know, that's yeah, that's pretty cool. I don't think about it much except when I'm asked about it by people like you. So that's when I can pat myself on the back, say, Yeah, you did good. My parents were proud.

Presenter29:09

Yeah.

Presenter29:17

It was February then, twenty ten, when you were diagnosed with breast cancer. At the time, you described it as your own personal nine eleven. You decided to be public about that, which is a big and a brave decision. Why did you decide to be public?

Martina Navratilova29:21

The time

Martina Navratilova29:24

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova29:26

Yeah.

Martina Navratilova29:30

That was one of the bravest things I did, not knowing that it would turn out that way, because well, I'm not very good at pretending, and I was keeping it quiet before I had the surgery. But afterwards, I realized how much difference I could make in women's lives by speaking out about having those mammograms, because I skipped four years. I did not realize I skipped four years, but I skipped four years. But I was lucky that I caught it when I caught it. And you're okay now? Your health is good? I'm good, yeah. I was cancer-free when they basically took the offending cells with the lampectomy. But then the radiation for six weeks just lowered the chance of it coming back.

Presenter30:05

And what about I mean, sports people at your level have a very unique, unusual relationship with their body. You know, their body is enabling them to get them where their mind wants them to be.

Martina Navratilova30:12

You know they're b

Martina Navratilova30:15

Yeah.

Presenter30:16

When were you given that diagnosis?

Presenter30:19

It must have had a different impact, I would think, from most other women in that, you know, your body had let you down. This is a body you relied on.

Martina Navratilova30:23

This is a

Martina Navratilova30:25

That's a great question, and absolutely felt very helpless because.

Martina Navratilova30:29

In athletics, when you get injured, you take care of it. If you can't take care of it, you have surgery, then you rehab and you're fine. Well, nothing hurt. I have breast cancer. I have the surgery. I do radiation. I can't rehab that. I can't rehab my boob. There's no exercise I can do to make it better. But really, what I did take away from that was don't sweat the small stuff. You know, in the grand scheme of things, if I miss this airplane, it's okay.

Presenter30:54

Time for some more music then. Your second last track. What are we gonna hear?

Martina Navratilova30:57

Well, there is the Czech one, Smetana Mavlast, and it's Vltava, which is the river that I grew up on, Beronka, flows into the Vlotava, which then flows into the Elbe, which then flows into the Atlantic. So it's kind of a continuation of life.

Presenter32:13

Part of Viltava from Smietna's Mavlast, my homeland. So these days, home much of the time, Martina Navratilova, is it is it Aspen?

Martina Navratilova32:20

Well, it's mostly Paris,'cause that's where my girlfriend lives. And it's Aspen, where I where I have my house, and Florida, where I also have a place. And uh, the world, really. I travel about six months of the year, I'm on the road.

Presenter32:23

Okay.

Presenter32:35

What's the most surprising part of your life? Because just to hear you say that that your partner has two girls and that they are obviously a big part of your life, you're parenting them. I'm wondering if maybe that's one of the biggest surprises, is that you find yourself being a parent?

Martina Navratilova32:47

Well, it's still a part time job, unfortunately. I like it to be more of a full time job because I travel so much and uh I'm looking to change my life a little bit where I don't travel as much. You know, it's instantaneous family. It's uh it's strange'cause you're in a relationship and that n now you have kids as well.

Martina Navratilova33:04

Yeah, it it changes your life, no doubt about that, but in a good way.

Presenter33:08

Now, here's the thing: in 2008, you made a decision to go into the jungle for I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here.

Martina Navratilova33:13

Oh yeah.

Presenter33:15

Why on earth would a woman who's won fifty nine Grand Slam titles decide that she was going to spend time having burrowing cockroaches and orb spiders crawl across her face so she could get a meal for the night?

Martina Navratilova33:26

Well, I didn't know that was gonna be the case. I was kind of sold a bill of goods because I was told it was more like camping with some side trips. And I love camping. I did not know I would be completely deprived of food. I lost like eleven pounds in three weeks and that really I couldn't bring anything with me. My luxury item was my pillow that my mom made. Yeah, so I I didn't know what it was. And of course, once you're there, then you can't quit because that's not in my nature. So you just kind of get on with it. But it was miserable. I was hungry for three weeks.

Presenter33:35

And a lot of

Presenter33:59

Now of course we're sending you away for desert island discs to an island. You've got you've got to survive on the island. You'll be on your own. I'm imagining and with I'm a celebrity, get me out of here, you've had some good training then for survival and the tough times. How do you think you get on on our island all on your own?

Martina Navratilova34:14

Well, I think I'm pretty industrious, so I think I would figure things out. When I was on uh I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, I made a sundial so I could tell the time of the day, approximate, but it worked pretty well. They did not show that on T V. And uh and I made a a back ammon and a and a chess set. So I'm pretty industrious, you know, I I entertain myself.

Presenter34:34

We're going to have your final piece of music then, Martina Navratilova. Tell us what you're going to play to sing it last time.

Martina Navratilova34:38

Well, the last Maria Carlos, I couldn't just do one song of of Maria Carlas, I had to do two, and uh this is a beautiful Puccini uh opera, Madam Butterfly. It's just uh it's sad, but it's uh at the same time just kind of give you a sense of spirit and hope.

Speaker 435:04

We are still before.

Speaker 435:12

God burst the mail, O take them all.

Presenter35:32

Maria Callis and Anne Baldi One Fine Day from Madam Butterfly by Puccini. So this is the point then, Martina, where I will give you some books. You're going to get uh the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take to the island, and you're allowed to take one of your own books along too.

Martina Navratilova35:44

One book, I think it would be a fountainhead. Although I don't agree with all of the philosophy of Ayn Rand, doing one's best is what's been my motto in in life, although I think I'm a lot more charitable than Ayn Rand would have you be. It's about, again, the human spirit and doing what you feel is right and not giving in to the masses and uh finding your own path.

Presenter36:07

Okay, we'll give you that. And you're allowed to take a luxury too to make life just a little more bearable on this island.

Martina Navratilova36:13

I think I would take the same thing I took to uh I'm a Celebrate Get Me Out of Here, which is my pillow. So at least my head hits the same spot every night and it's a pillow that my mom made for me years ago. Okay.

Presenter36:22

That's yours. And if the waves threaten to wash away your disks, which one would you run through the sand to save?

Martina Navratilova36:28

I think I would save um Smetana for two reasons. It's of course a beautiful piece of music, but it's twelve minutes long, so I would get more out of it than the other songs. And I think when all else fails, you'll you reach for the classics.

Presenter36:41

Okay. Martina Navratilova, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs. Thank you.

Presenter37:22

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website: bbc.co. uk slash radio four.