Margaret Rhodes

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Margaret Rhodes. It was an accident of birth that's given her an unparalleled view into the lives of the most famous and enigmatic family in Britain. She explains it by saying My mother's sister married somebody important, and that's only the start of it. Her aunt was the Queen Mother. The Queen is her first cousin and her friend. In an extraordinary life, she lodged at Buckingham Palace whilst working for MI Six, has been held captive after a coup in Bhutan, and adventured her way around half of Africa before becoming the Queen Mother's close companion during her final years.

Presenter1:12

She says of the situation she grew up in.

Presenter1:15

There was never anything said to make us think we were better than any one else just luckier. Now I feel rather like a species of dinosaur left behind by evolution.

Presenter1:27

That's really how

Margaret Rhodes1:27

How do you feel as if? I do think sometimes one does feel a bit of a dinosaur. And I find it in a way, especially now, because all my brothers and sisters have died. And I am the last dinosaur of my family remaining on this earth. So it's a reasonably accurate sort of description of what I feel like.

Presenter1:46

Um you've also said the world you were born into is an almost vanished world of privilege. So do you regret that world past?

Margaret Rhodes1:53

No, I'm I mean the point was that when one was growing up they didn't seem remotely privileged. Um I mean my parents were both mad keen gardeners and were perpetually upside down in a flower bed weeding or doing something, you know. And I was the youngest by a very long way.

Margaret Rhodes2:12

So that I had a really, in a way, quite a lonely childhood, which suited me fine, I mean, luckily. Got me used to being alone now, which I am as a widow.

Margaret Rhodes2:21

And of course I was brought up with a family who were all

Margaret Rhodes2:25

keen on shooting, fishing, and that sort of thing. Certainly during the war I I pursued rabbits and pigeons with great determination in order to have something to for the pot.

Presenter2:38

You pursued an enemy plane once, didn't you?

Margaret Rhodes2:40

You tried to shoot it down, did you? Is that true? I I emptied my entire magazine at a very low flying German aeroplane that came over right literally tree top level. And I thought that, you know, some miracle I might hit the petrol tank.

Presenter2:41

You tried to shoot a

Presenter2:43

Tide?

Margaret Rhodes2:56

And it would go up in flames. Wheelers say it flew on totally unscathed.

Presenter3:01

How old were you when you did that?

Margaret Rhodes3:02

About fourteen.

Presenter3:04

And and as a young uh girl you were bridesmaid to the then Princess Elizabeth uh when she got married. What do you remember of that day?

Margaret Rhodes3:11

Well, alas, with old age creeping up on me, I remember less and less. But um no, it was it was a wonderful and joyful occasion, and in a way the service in the Abbey is I don't really remember very much about, because one was carried away with the music and everything else, you know. It was just generally a a very fun moment.

Presenter3:31

Is it right that you have a picture of that great day in your downstairs loo?

Presenter3:37

Yes. And what does Her Majesty make of that placement?

Margaret Rhodes3:42

I don't choose never been to my downstairs loo.

Presenter3:45

Well, that solves that problem then. We're going to, of course, as you know, play your list of eight discs, and it's time to begin with the first disc. Tell me a little bit about the track and why you've chosen it. What are we going to hear now?

Margaret Rhodes3:51

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes3:57

Well, who wants to be a millionaire?

Margaret Rhodes4:00

was played incessantly.

Margaret Rhodes4:02

during a really happy time that my husband and I had because we

Margaret Rhodes4:07

Made great friends with a couple who owned a coffee farm in Kenya.

Margaret Rhodes4:12

And we went out every year.

Margaret Rhodes4:15

Well, we we listened to th this and others every evening while drinking white ladies. What's in a white lady? Well, it's it's a mixture of gin and curacao and vodka. No, I can't remember. I've never made one. Were you all three sheets to the wind, then? Because you danced. Yeah, we were very ladylike, quite frankly bold, white ladies.

Presenter4:30

Yeah.

Presenter4:35

Who wants to be a millionaire?

Speaker 14:39

I don't.

Presenter4:40

Have flashy flunkies everywhere

Speaker 14:43

I don't.

Presenter4:44

Who wants the father of a country, yes?

Speaker 14:48

Uh

Presenter4:48

Yeah.

Speaker 14:48

A country, a state, is something I'd hate.

Presenter4:53

Who wants to wallow in champagne?

Presenter4:58

Who wants a supersonic plane?

Speaker 15:01

I don't.

Presenter5:02

Who wants a private landing field too?

Speaker 15:05

I don't know.

Presenter5:06

That was Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? from the soundtrack to High Society. It was performed there by Frank Sinatra and Celeste Holme. It would be indelicate to concentrate on the contents of your downstairs loo for too long. I did mention one thing, which was uh the Queen and Prince Philip's wedding day at which you were bridesmaid. Also nestled in this loo, I understand, is the little um sort of stool that you sat on during the coronation at which you were also present.

Margaret Rhodes5:30

Ah yes.

Presenter5:30

Tell me about that day at Westminster Abbey. Can you remember what the atmosphere was like on the day of the coronation outside of the Abbey?

Margaret Rhodes5:37

I think it was because we had only just recovered from.

Margaret Rhodes5:42

six, seven years of deprivation and blackouts and rationing and it was like a the sun suddenly coming out behind a lot of very dark clouds. And I think everybody felt also that with

Margaret Rhodes5:55

With the with the new young queen, a whole new era was opening up. It was somehow exciting.

Presenter6:01

And now, of course, we're in the year of the Diamond Jubilee. Do do you look back over those sixty years and think how remarkable it is that how much Britain has changed?

Margaret Rhodes6:09

Uh

Margaret Rhodes6:10

Well, I think it has changed a lot. But uh in a way the thing that's alarming about it is the speed with which those sixty years of con

Presenter6:17

And how about um the Queen herself? How much do you think she has changed in these sixty years?

Margaret Rhodes6:24

I think she's a very pragmatic person.

Margaret Rhodes6:28

And I think she has

Margaret Rhodes6:30

Overseen a gentle change in the monarchy, bringing it.

Margaret Rhodes6:36

A little bit nearer the people.

Margaret Rhodes6:39

You know, in doing that job you have to

Margaret Rhodes6:41

Squash the s the self of you in order to give yourself wholeheartedly to the job.

Margaret Rhodes6:49

Spontaneity has to leave your life.

Margaret Rhodes6:52

You know six months ahead what you're going to be doing every day.

Margaret Rhodes6:57

And that demands quite a lot of sacrifice.

Margaret Rhodes7:00

And she has done that.

Margaret Rhodes7:02

And I think uh she's just

Margaret Rhodes7:05

Mean the perfectly marvellous queen.

Presenter7:07

There are people also, as you will be aware, who believe that this idea of inherited privilege is in itself wrong. But I'm interested in how much you think that the constraints that are put on the individual might be a very good reason to not have a monarchy.

Margaret Rhodes7:26

Well, all I can say really is that if you don't have a monarch.

Margaret Rhodes7:32

You have to have a president.

Margaret Rhodes7:34

I personally can't imagine that people would

Margaret Rhodes7:38

B

Margaret Rhodes7:39

wildly overexcited at say um President Callaghan or President Meltra with the same

Speaker 17:46

Maybe

Margaret Rhodes7:48

Intensity as they view a monarch, and that there's something about hereditary.

Margaret Rhodes7:55

That I don't know, but it in a way it suddenly manages to produce greatness out of those people.

Presenter8:03

The abdication, of course, is within your uh living memory. Uh that's you know, that was a time when somebody couldn't rise to the occasion and didn't put it in the middle of the middle.

Margaret Rhodes8:10

Well, A I was only thirteen or something.

Presenter8:12

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes8:12

So I didn't make a lot of it.

Margaret Rhodes8:15

You know, I was too young to have any views about it at that stage. It was just uh an all consuming topic of the day, and I think the poor King to be and queen to be were appalled and horrified at at at what was happening.

Presenter8:31

You were, of course, at the wedding last summer of Prince William to Catherine Middleton. Did you feel as if the royal family somehow receivmented its place in the nation's affection? I mean, it was a day of enormous uh celebration.

Margaret Rhodes8:44

I think he I think he was just him.

Margaret Rhodes8:46

A really happy family wedding, quite honestly. It was it was just, you know, everybody rejoicing that the young couple had come together. A lovely family wedding.

Presenter8:56

Time for some more music then, Margaret Rhodes. We're going to your second disc of the day. Tell us about this. Why have you chosen this?

Margaret Rhodes9:03

Well, this is really part of just remembering how lucky I've been to go to various of the great occasions. And I think this was sung at at the coronation of our present queen. So this is just part of the memory of the great events.

Presenter10:15

The one hundred and twenty second psalm, I Was Glad, set to music by Charles Hubert Parry, and taken from the coronation of Queen Elizabeth the Second, with the choir of Westminster Abbey. So let's take a little trip back then, Margaret Rhodes. You were born in nineteen twenty five. Tell me about your home.

Margaret Rhodes10:32

Well, I was actually born in London, but my home was in Scotland.

Margaret Rhodes10:36

It was a sort of moderately big house, and it had what in Scotland you call the policies, which are the sort of estates round about.

Presenter10:44

The place was Carberry Tower, near Musselborough, which is just outside Edinburgh. And you used that phrase there. It was wonderful. Moderately big. I'm going to tell people just what Carberry Tower consisted of. There were ten spare bedrooms, a north and south library, an indoor tennis court, a bowling alley, an armoury, and a secret tunnel. Is that right?

Margaret Rhodes11:04

Yeah.

Presenter11:04

More or less. It sounds like a wonderful place to be a child.

Margaret Rhodes11:04

More or less.

Margaret Rhodes11:07

Yes, it was. But the armoury and the s the and the so called Creek passage, which I think had long been blocked up, was actually too creepy. I used to go past the door in rather a hurry, and I wouldn't go in there by myself.

Margaret Rhodes11:20

Too frightening.

Presenter11:21

Is it true you were given a suit of armour as a child?

Margaret Rhodes11:24

Yes, I my my parents got my gender rather wrong.

Margaret Rhodes11:29

I was never given a doll, for which I was heartily thankful, because I thought they were dreadfully sissy things.

Margaret Rhodes11:35

But I was given bows and arrows, armour, and a sword. So I think they got mildly muddled.

Presenter11:41

So did the house itself manage that wonderful upper crust thing of combining great grandeur with a real sort of absence of creature comforts? Was it was the water freezing and what?

Margaret Rhodes11:51

Well, I mean, i again remembering that that while my childhood was in the late twenties, which is a very long time ago, there wasn't very much in the way of central heating.

Margaret Rhodes12:02

And I do remember vividly because they had a washstand in one's bedroom with a jug of water on it, and the water could freeze.

Margaret Rhodes12:11

in the jug in winter. Um I mean, the last thing our house was was grand. I mean it was gum boots and and dirty clothes and mucking about.

Presenter12:22

Your father had the magnificent name of Sidney Herbert Buller Fullerton and he was the sixteenth Lord Elphinstone. He had spent some of his life in the court of Sir Nicholas the Second. What had he done there?

Margaret Rhodes12:33

That's a slight exaggeration. He merely visited. He led a very adventurous.

Margaret Rhodes12:38

Life. I mean, I sometimes feel quite proud of the fact in a funny way. But my father was born in

Margaret Rhodes12:44

Eighteen sixty seven, which was half way through Queen Victoria's reign.

Margaret Rhodes12:49

So in the late eighteen hundreds and the early nineteen hundreds he was explorer come big game hunter.

Margaret Rhodes12:57

He went to marvellous places which had probably never seen a European before.

Presenter13:02

And his motto was Have Gun Will Travel.

Margaret Rhodes13:04

Well, the theoretically, yes.

Margaret Rhodes13:07

Because he didn't marry till he was nearly just on forty.

Margaret Rhodes13:11

Did he bring

Presenter13:16

back any of his trophies.

Margaret Rhodes13:18

Please

Presenter13:18

Uh

Margaret Rhodes13:18

Well, there were a few odd hens stuck about the house, yes, including a lovely, lovely popper.

Margaret Rhodes13:25

Grizzly Bear, who lived in a hall, and he was a very formidable fellow.

Presenter13:30

Um your father gave you what sounds to me to be some pretty sound advice, which is, he said, the only things to be regretted in life are the things you don't do.

Margaret Rhodes13:37

The things you

Margaret Rhodes13:38

I thought it was rather a splendid thing to tell your child.

Margaret Rhodes13:42

I love adventure.

Margaret Rhodes13:43

I love the feeling it's just possible that I'm treading on a stone that nobody's ever actually trodden on before.

Margaret Rhodes13:50

The

Presenter13:50

Right, let's have some music then, Margaret Rhodes. We're on your third disc of the day. Tell me, tell me what we're going to hear now.

Margaret Rhodes13:56

There were two lovely books in my childhood called The Songs of the North.

Margaret Rhodes14:00

And the particular one called Lizzy Lindsay used to be sung by my

Margaret Rhodes14:05

eldest brother, the one who was end going to end up in Kolditz um as a prisoner of war. And he used to sing this a great deal, so it brings back memories.

Speaker 114:15

All ye gang te the healuns lee zeelinsy

Speaker 114:21

Will ye gang ti' the healins o'er me All ye gang ti' the heelins, lazy lambsie My bride announ to my darling to be.

Presenter14:37

That was Belle Stuart and the traditional Scottish air Lizzie Lindsay. You mentioned, going into that, Margaret Rhodes, your brother John. He was taken prisoner for five years during the war. He spent part of that time

Margaret Rhodes14:46

During the boy he spent

Presenter14:48

In Colditz, Do you remember him coming home?

Margaret Rhodes14:50

Oh, I do. You know, it was five whole years, and you think what that does to a young man. It's sort of such a huge chunk of life gone. He was a member of a little group called the Prominente, who who the Germans used as hostages, really, you know.

Margaret Rhodes15:06

Towards the end it became apparent that the German High Command had ordered them to all be shot.

Margaret Rhodes15:14

And my brother was actually the senior officers of of the party, and um he managed to

Margaret Rhodes15:22

talk the German general into agreeing that if he signed their death warrant, he would be signing his own death warrant, because the Germans could see that the war was being lost.

Margaret Rhodes15:34

And he managed to convince him of this, and thus got them out eventually.

Presenter15:38

How changed was he? How different was he than the brother had been off to Holland?

Margaret Rhodes15:42

He never talked about life as a prisoner. It was sort of sad, really, because he never got married. So he had a a a lonely life in a way.

Margaret Rhodes15:51

But he was actually such fun himself, you know.

Presenter15:54

You say that your parents were always sort of upside down in the garden, digging something up, or planting something, or deadheading something. Um w I mean, how much time did you spend with your parents as a little girl?

Margaret Rhodes16:02

Well, as a very small child, remarkably little. One was brought down in a n nice little dress at tea time.

Margaret Rhodes16:10

I mean, I loved them both dearly, and they loved each other frantically, which was sweet, you know. I mean, I can actually remember going round our little pond, lake thing, that we had I can remember walking round and say to myself that I was going to make up my mind to have as good and happy a marriage as as my parents had had, which I did.

Presenter16:30

And what about being a parent then? Because you have four children yourself, now, of course, all grown up. But did you think

Margaret Rhodes16:33

Okay.

Presenter16:36

Well, actually, it might be a better idea to spend a bit more time with my children than my mother.

Margaret Rhodes16:40

Oh, well one did one did uh of of necessity in a in a way, because, you know, circumstances have changed to the next generation, I have to slightly shamefacedly admit. I had a nanny, a nurserymaid, and we had a married couple. He did the garden and she did the cooking.

Margaret Rhodes16:58

Uh but that didn't last very long.

Margaret Rhodes17:01

And, you know, the nannies disappeared in the end.

Presenter17:04

Let's have some music, Margaret Rhodes. It's time for your fourth choice of the day. What are we going to hear?

Margaret Rhodes17:04

The music model.

Margaret Rhodes17:09

Oh, we're gonna have night and day with good old Fred Astaire. Tell me why you've chosen this. Well, because it's sort of the epitome of of the of the

Margaret Rhodes17:17

Having achieved grown upness, it was just what was being played, and and it was you know, it was just a nice tune of the moment, which reminds me of that moment.

Presenter17:27

Like the beat, beat, beat of the tom-tom when the jungle shadows fall. Like the tick-tick-tock of the stately clock as it stands against the wall. Like the drip, drip, drip of the raindrops when the summer shower is through. So a voice within me keeps repeating, you, you, you, night and day, you are the one.

Presenter17:55

That was Fredester and night and day. Um you used to spend summer holidays at Balmoral with the young princesses, Elizabeth and Margaret. What are your memories of those times?

Margaret Rhodes18:04

Oh, well, it started from when I was really very small, and they were living at Dupin Duchess of York at at Burke Hall, which was a smaller house at Belmorrel.

Margaret Rhodes18:13

And it was a great, wonderful holiday of the year, you know. And uh,

Margaret Rhodes18:18

It's a blissful house. It's heaven. Not band, it's a small little eighteenth century house, built on a hill where the garden goes steeply down to a burn at the bottom. We just had such fun there until

Margaret Rhodes18:32

nineteen thirty five, six, when all the drama started. You know, it was just playing. We I mean, we rode Shetland ponies, we went on picnics. They had a little island at the bottom in the burn, and we used to go down and have picnic teas there. Well, I regret to say that we used to have a competition to see how many slices of brown bread and golden syrup could be eaten in one go, which I won.

Margaret Rhodes18:57

with tw twelve slices of bread.

Margaret Rhodes19:00

Colonel.

Presenter19:01

Yeah.

Presenter19:02

Were you sick? That sounds disgusting.

Margaret Rhodes19:03

Yeah, I think it's a good idea.

Presenter19:06

Uh

Presenter19:06

I find it hard to imagine how much formality and how much etiquette is still expected if you are in very close daily proximity and are a friend of the family. Are there certain do's and don'ts?

Margaret Rhodes19:20

Well, I think from my point of view merely I d I do not enter the political talk.

Presenter19:25

Uh

Margaret Rhodes19:25

Yes. I keep clear of that.

Margaret Rhodes19:28

I mean I cared Chicago Queen.

Presenter19:28

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes19:29

It was much more formal in the King and Queen's day.

Margaret Rhodes19:34

I'm just thinking of Belmorrell for the moment. All the guests were ready in the drawing room. By the time the King and Queen came in, always in long evening dresses, who were more or less made to stand in a line and look pretty, and then they came in and you curtsied and but I mean now it's much more informal, which is much nicer.

Presenter19:50

A lot of your intimate personal memories are tied up with the lives of the royal family. Was it difficult t to sort of approach the royal family and say, This is a book I'd like to write?

Margaret Rhodes20:02

No. I told her ages before that I was thinking of writing. And then I remember asking her if I could tell the story of of when we hid under the tablecloth. Just tell me a little bit of the detail of that, hiding under the tablecloth. We were having tea on a terrace at Windsor Castle with my friend Elizabeth Longman and the King and Queen, the two princesses.

Presenter20:15

Dig onto the tablecloth.

Margaret Rhodes20:24

in the war, and uh suddenly they heard American voices, loud American voices, coming round the corner below.

Margaret Rhodes20:32

And the King said,'Oh, my God, I forgot It's General Eisenhower bringing a whole party of people round' And the King and Queen just looked at each other, never said a word, and they got up and they both got under the tablecloth.

Margaret Rhodes20:43

And we all followed suit rather slowly, giggling under the tablecloth, until the Americans had gone.

Margaret Rhodes20:51

But I know that the Queen had confessed to General Eisenhower that this had happened, so she said it was quite all right for me to do it.

Presenter20:57

Let's have some more music, Margaret Rhodes. We're on your fifth choice of the day.

Margaret Rhodes21:02

It's Tom Nier.

Presenter21:03

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes21:03

When when my husband had a heart attack and was in hospital, Princess Margaret sent him the Vatican Rag.

Margaret Rhodes21:11

That's how we first got to know about it.

Speaker 121:14

Yeah.

Speaker 321:14

Uh

Speaker 121:14

First

Speaker 321:15

You get down on

Speaker 121:16

On your knees.

Speaker 321:16

Fiddle with your rosaries, bow your head with great respect and chiny fleck, chinu fleck, chinu fleck

Speaker 121:27

Uh

Presenter21:27

Do whatever steps you want if you have cleared them with the pontiff Everybody say his own Kyrie Lay his own doing the bat again

Speaker 121:34

Not

Presenter21:39

Tom Lera and the Vatican Rag and It Still Makes You Laugh, Margaret Rose, you were enjoying that thoroughly.

Margaret Rhodes21:43

It was really really good fun, that one.

Presenter21:46

Um let's talk about your war years then. I'm not I mean, I'm I'm not quite sure where to begin. I I said i in the introduction that you you lodged at Buckingham Palace and you worked for MI Six.

Margaret Rhodes21:57

Yes, it

Presenter21:57

Yes, it could hardly sound more extraordinary.

Margaret Rhodes22:00

I suppose it does. Too near to this day and age. I I think I really wanted to join the Wrens.

Margaret Rhodes22:07

And I rather fancied the thought of being one of those ladies who push sh ships about on a huge screen, you know. Anyway, f for s whatever reason it was, I didn't become a wren, and I I became a secretary in MI six.

Presenter22:21

How were you recruited to Mi Six?

Margaret Rhodes22:23

I honestly I promise you I can't remember. I mean, it just sort of happened.

Margaret Rhodes22:28

The head of the organization was just known by the letter C and he wrote in green ink and he was God. I mean, he promised you, he was really God.

Margaret Rhodes22:37

It was very interesting. I'm actually involved.

Margaret Rhodes22:41

getting reports of all the all the agents coming to my desk. And um so one before they happened one knew all about well the V ones were being made and heavy water factories in Norway and all that kind of thing, you know.

Presenter22:57

In terms of the information that you had access to then during the war, I mean, you would read the information coming in, collate it, and then presumably pass it on to somebody else.

Margaret Rhodes23:05

Yeah.

Presenter23:05

Di I mean, you must have understood a pretty good deal of it, did you?

Margaret Rhodes23:07

Oh yes, well one couldn't help but understand it. But I've always thought the funny thing about

Margaret Rhodes23:14

human beings is how quickly and easily they can adapt to a whole lot of different circumstances. I mean, it it didn't seem odd, for instance, that I might go and spend a weekend with my family and or friends out of London and come back and then walk through streets with flaming buildings and glass shattered and bombs dropping and you know, it just happened and you did it.

Presenter23:38

And you said, I mean, you had a governess, but you were never formally educated. Your brothers went to Eton and then on to Oxford. I wonder if, in a way.

Margaret Rhodes23:42

Liz went to

Margaret Rhodes23:44

But

Presenter23:46

The war intervening meant that actually you had a much more liberated life.

Margaret Rhodes23:50

Oh, yes, I think oh, absolutely. I think otherwise at a an eighteen year old I'd have been I was probably sitting at Corby still, you know.

Presenter23:59

So what was it like living at Buckingham Palace? What are the w you had your own apartment, did you, or you?

Margaret Rhodes24:04

Well, in in the end it was really nice because my brother

Margaret Rhodes24:08

The other brother, Andrew, came back to London and said we both lodged at Buckingham Palace, and we were given a housemaid's pantry where we could cook. We had tiny, tiny little place, with a tiny little table, and we didn't have a fridge or anything exotic. So I put the milk bottle out on the window sill.

Margaret Rhodes24:28

And got a rocket, out of all proportion to my hideous act, by the master of the household, who said that I was defacing the front of Buckingham Palace, putting milk bottles on the window sill, not all the lump thing.

Margaret Rhodes24:40

Um

Margaret Rhodes24:41

And then one glorious moment we actually had the king and queen to dinner in their own housemaid's pantry.

Margaret Rhodes24:47

Yeah.

Presenter24:47

Can you remember what you

Margaret Rhodes24:48

Cooked?

Margaret Rhodes24:49

Nay, but I do remember we used to be able to buy whole pigeons for two and six half a crown.

Margaret Rhodes24:54

Maybe we gave them pigeon. I d no, I honestly can't remember any of that.

Margaret Rhodes24:58

But it was all interesting and fun during that period of life.

Presenter25:02

Let's have some music then, Margaret Rhodes. We're going on to your sixth choice. Tell me about this.

Margaret Rhodes25:03

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes25:06

Right, well my husband's brother.

Margaret Rhodes25:09

His son is Teddy Tahu Rhodes, brought up in Tallinn in New Zealand.

Margaret Rhodes25:15

And uh he's actually got the most wonderful voice, and he's singing something which I don't know what it means uh from anyway it's from the marriage of Figaro.

Speaker 325:27

Non can try par folona yamoroso, not teor, nor dintor, nor girando, televel et urban nor reposo, narcisento a donchinor amor.

Margaret Rhodes25:36

Let's wonder if

Speaker 325:42

Belle veliposo, Narcicento Arruchino d'Aborto.

Speaker 125:43

Uh

Margaret Rhodes25:43

To the band of repause

Speaker 325:50

Don't you bright west divide and a king

Speaker 125:55

But

Speaker 325:58

Welcome, melon gel gallanter, well aquio macuelaria brillante, well merbilio dones componor, well merbiliones componor

Speaker 326:13

Non purai, pupenakini, duel capello, duelación, cuelaria la.

Presenter26:24

Teddy Dahoo Rhodes with the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra and non piuandrai from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro. Now here's a thing, Margaret Rhodes. For someone whose life has been that of privilege and doing things properly, when you fell in love

Presenter26:38

It was with a penniless married man. What happened to your upper class pragmatism there?

Margaret Rhodes26:41

Up into your upper class pragmatism there. My parents thought it was the most brilliant idea that it had ever been.

Margaret Rhodes26:48

But anyway, that that was no good, because I'd fallen in love, and and um by the time I I'd met him he was already well separated from his first wife.

Presenter26:57

Um Dennis's first marriage was annulled. Did that make it easier for the king and queen to attend your wedding?

Margaret Rhodes27:01

Yes, because we could be married in church.

Presenter27:04

I see. So that was important.

Margaret Rhodes27:04

I see. So that was important. Was very important.

Presenter27:06

So the the king and queen attended your wedding. Um Princess Elizabeth couldn't come because she was pregnant with that old Princess Anne. Princess Margaret was one of your bridesmaids. I mean, it all sounds quite grand. Did you bring London to a standstill?

Margaret Rhodes27:08

Ouch.

Margaret Rhodes27:11

Is that right?

Margaret Rhodes27:19

Well, there were, obviously, because the King and Queen were coming. I mean, you know so though yes, there were quite big crowds. Old Dennis kept on saying apparently the bridegroom pays for the bells to be rung in churches, and he was counting literally all the bells, thinking he wouldn't be able to pay for them all.

Presenter27:36

Um you set up home in in Devon then and your husband wrote a little and and he would go on sort of scientific explorations and tours and things. In nineteen sixty four you went on an a trip to Bhutan.

Margaret Rhodes27:49

Bish

Presenter27:49

And you ended up hitching up with Shirley Maclean, which seems a little bit different. That's a fishback, wasn't it? Yes, it was.

Margaret Rhodes27:52

Yeah

Margaret Rhodes27:55

We are

Margaret Rhodes27:56

Years back, Dennis had been friends with a a lady from Sikkim, who you know, you must you must come to Sikkim, you know, hotly followed by a wonderful invitation on hand rolled rice paper covered in gold for her brother's wedding. Her brother was the son of what was then called the Maharaja. So we to begin with, we laura laughed it off and then we thought would would one ever be asked to a Buddhist wedding in the heart of the Himalayas? The whole thing was out of this world, really, you know. We were guests of the brother.

Margaret Rhodes28:28

And Shirley McLean was the guest of somebody else. But we did eventually land up together. She was awfully nice. I mean, rather surprisingly nice, because I know I always expect a famous actresses to be rather sort of snooty, you know.

Presenter28:40

They sometimes are. And so there was a coup, and you were held up.

Margaret Rhodes28:41

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes28:43

And there was a coup, and so we were very much persona non grata and had really quite a difficult and dramatic time trying to get out of the country because we kept on hearing of people being tortured, put in prison and, you know. So we made our way back to the frontier.

Margaret Rhodes28:59

We suddenly heard tramp, tramp, tramp, and the brigade of Bourgenese soldiers um had surrounded the guest house we were in and sat there with their rifles pointing inwards at us all. One of the difficulties was they let us go, but they wanted to detain the local people who were looking after us. And they were going to be really cruel to them and we wouldn't stand for that. And then I mean in the end, in the end, in the end, after a lot of negotiations, they agreed to let us go and to take these two with us. But it was quite dramatic while it was all happening.

Presenter29:33

Yes, it sounds very dramatic. Are you in possession of a stiff upper lip? Are you one of these people who sort of just gets on with it?

Margaret Rhodes29:34

Do you mess it up?

Margaret Rhodes29:37

Do you want to

Margaret Rhodes29:39

Yeah, well, I mean you know, it's part of enjoying adventure, isn't it?

Presenter29:44

Let's have some music then Margaret Rose.

Margaret Rhodes29:45

What have we got to?

Presenter29:46

We're on uh your second

Presenter29:49

Tell me why you've chosen this.

Margaret Rhodes29:51

Well, it's very much again Scottish childhood. It's just part of me almost.

Speaker 330:04

Uh

Presenter30:04

Put pose.

Presenter30:07

Uh

Speaker 130:07

Yeah.

Presenter30:07

Uh

Speaker 130:07

He lets me down to live upon your steam.

Speaker 330:07

Yeah.

Speaker 130:19

Heart by your soul.

Presenter30:33

The twenty third Psalm, The Lord's My Shepherd, performed there by the Norwich Cathedral Choir. I want to ask you a little bit more about your husband Dennis. You've written that he was one of those people who felt himself that he wouldn't be very long lived. Is that true?

Margaret Rhodes30:46

Well, he did. He said he said to me he'd never make old burns. What made him th think that I I I honestly don't know. Sadly, he was right.

Presenter30:54

So, some years, Margaret Rhodes, after your husband Dennis, died, you became one of the official companions to the Queen Mother. She was, of course,.

Presenter31:05

A lady in waiting.

Margaret Rhodes31:05

Well, actually, it wasn't even technically a lady in waiting, because there's a it divided very sharply. There are two ladies who have to be actually lady, something or other. I see. Who go

Presenter31:05

Yeah.

Margaret Rhodes31:18

To the very grander come things with with Queen Elizabeth. Common old things like me were called women of the bedchamber.

Margaret Rhodes31:28

You know, she was going with that when she was doing engagements and things and and dealing with the letters.

Presenter31:33

You've been very good, I notice, in interviews, in a fairly discreet but firm way at putting some of the rumours about the Queen the late Queen Mother to rest. Say you know, people say she'd hollow legs and she was always at the booze and all that.

Margaret Rhodes31:44

Yes, because you're they always had a thing about her drinking.

Presenter31:47

Yes, and you've said absolutely.

Margaret Rhodes31:48

Absolute absolute rubbish.

Presenter31:50

Yes. What would what would she typically imbibe then?

Margaret Rhodes31:53

Well, she drank that lunchtime she'd have de bonnet.

Margaret Rhodes31:57

At dinner in the evening she'd have a

Margaret Rhodes32:00

A martini.

Margaret Rhodes32:02

Really, that was that was it. I mean, she didn't drink wine at all.

Margaret Rhodes32:05

and she would occasionally have a little drip of champagne.

Presenter32:08

And so, I mean, obviously, you had official duties. As you were saying, you dealt a lot with correspondence. So, there was a lot of work generated around about the life she lived. But, did did you have.

Margaret Rhodes32:15

Brand met the

Presenter32:17

Fun together? Did you?

Margaret Rhodes32:18

Oh, yes, because everything one did with her was fun. I mean, I can remember doing the very dullest things that you could imagine, and somehow it was fun. She had this miraculous way of

Presenter32:18

Uh

Margaret Rhodes32:30

somehow turning everything into fun. And I don't know how she did it. She was just heaven to work for.

Presenter32:36

You were with her when she died, and you've written that it was a very calm and it was a very peaceful time. What can you tell me about it?

Margaret Rhodes32:44

Well, I don't really honestly want to talk about that very much, but it it it because it was a very private time. She didn't t talk or say anything, and I I got the clergyman to come and say prayers and things, and

Margaret Rhodes32:57

It was just very peaceful.

Presenter32:59

Um you have seven grandchildren, three great-grandchildren, and I understand

Presenter33:05

That great-granny has taught her grandchildren to or one of them at least to shoot and skin a rabbit. Is that right?

Margaret Rhodes33:12

Oh, well, yes, I probably have, because I certainly know how to do it. It's quite useful. Bit of

Margaret Rhodes33:17

Knowledge.

Presenter33:18

Well, I'm you can probably see where I'm going with this because, as you know, we're casting away to the desert island and you're going to have to survive. Oh, yes, of course. So it won't be a problem.

Margaret Rhodes33:24

And you

Margaret Rhodes33:26

Period.

Margaret Rhodes33:28

N no, I think boredom will be my problem.

Margaret Rhodes33:32

You you'll be a survivor apart from the loneliness? Yes, I think I'd be quite a survivor.

Presenter33:36

Let's have your final piece of music then, Margaret Rhodes. What about you?

Margaret Rhodes33:39

We've got a nice one.

Presenter33:40

Yes, tell me about this.

Margaret Rhodes33:42

Well, we were good. My husband uh we all adored um they bring me sunshine with welcome and wise. Um, so this is just memory of all the happy times we had with children watching all those programmes.

Margaret Rhodes33:55

Bring me sunshine.

Margaret Rhodes33:58

Ain't your smile.

Speaker 134:01

Bring me laughter.

Speaker 134:04

All the while.

Speaker 134:07

In this world where we live, there should be more happiness, so much joy you can give To each brand new bright tomorrow, make me happy.

Speaker 134:21

Uh Through the year.

Presenter34:22

Yeah.

Presenter34:26

Bring Me Sunshine, performed, of course, by Eric Morecombe and Ernie Wise. Um so, Margaret Rhodes, here we are with The Bible and the Complete Works of Shakespeare, and another book, your book. What are you going to take?

Margaret Rhodes34:37

Um well, after a lot of thought, I am going to take the big reader's digest book of British Gardens, and I shall spend happy hours devising well-watered green gardens. It's yours. And of course you're allowed a luxury, too. What were your luxury?

Presenter34:54

3b.

Margaret Rhodes34:55

Well, I wanted to take my dog. Are you going to allow that?

Presenter34:58

No.

Margaret Rhodes34:59

Well, how unkind of you. Well, I will have to take, um

Margaret Rhodes35:05

I'll take my favourite jersey, in case cold nights are available on the desert island.

Presenter35:10

Right. Do you have a single favorite jersey? What colour is it? Blue. The Scottish cashmere, is it? Yes, lovely. Right. That's yours. And if you had to just pick one of these eight discs to save from the waves, which one would you save?

Margaret Rhodes35:13

Do

Margaret Rhodes35:14

Yeah, it's

Margaret Rhodes35:24

I think

Margaret Rhodes35:26

I do Tom Lera, right? You want to be able to keep laughing.

Presenter35:27

Right.

Presenter35:29

It's yours. Margaret Rhodes, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Margaret Rhodes35:32

Oh, thank you so much for being so kind to me.

Presenter36:10

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash radio four.