Brian Moore

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the rugby player and commentator Brian Moore. Ferociously competitive. As a player, he was known as the Pit Bull. By the time he retired, he had sixty four England caps to his name and had competed in three Grand Slams. Away from the pitch, he pursued a career in law, and found time to enjoy opera and fine wine, but he also started unpicking his interior life, his feelings about being adopted as a baby, and the unhappiness he'd experienced as a child. These days he writes, commentates, and is a father to his two daughters. But with his playing days firmly behind him, he says I miss that life more than I usually admit. Whenever I meet any former teammate, it's as if our past glories occurred only last week. And that must be quite something to deal with, Brian Moore. That feeling that life as it goes from week to week is is pretty bland by comparison, pretty normal.

Brian Moore1:25

Well, that's one of the difficulties, one of the principal difficulties that sports people have. And when

Brian Moore1:32

Half your life, or even now, maybe a third of of a sportsman's life only is over, they've got to come to terms with the fact that whatever they do after that, it will never be the same intensity. It just can't be. The birth of my two daughters was very moving, but n it wasn't the same because it wasn't public. And that's the big element that people who don't have that experience don't understand, that everything because it's in public, because it's on view, has an extra frissant to it. And it was a perfect thing for me, you know, all the frustrations. You could go out and legally, you know, do injury to people and they would to you. So when you step away from that, it's it's it's not easy at all.

Presenter2:12

Indeed, you've written of yourself. It would only be a slight exaggeration to say that the way I conducted myself.

Presenter2:19

Was pathological. I mean, you were committed doesn't even cover it as a player.

Brian Moore2:21

Undoubtedly.

Presenter2:24

Yeah.

Brian Moore2:24

No, and the thing is, you see, in sport, that's rewarded. The I won't give up, carry on training, going again and again and again, get knocked down, going that's rewarded because people say, Isn't that fantastic? dedication, etc. When it comes to normal life, you can't solve everything like that. And whilst you can do things with hard work, the maxims of sport just don't work because you say, Well, you know, the ones in sport that say things like, Well, second is no use at all, is nothing. Well, in life you're going to be a second or a fifth or a or a two millionth because there are people who are richer than you, people who are cleverer, people who are more attractive, and that's a really difficult situation to be in. I don't like it at all.

Presenter3:06

I said there that you were known in your playing days as the pit bull. The pit bull, of course, is a banned breed. Um do you find that you're often having to try to sort of contain your impulses to to act?

Brian Moore3:15

I should be banned, certainly. Now, the the the pitbull thing was for two reasons. One, the aesthetics are quite similar, but also the it was given because

Presenter3:15

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Brian Moore3:25

When I got my teeth into something, I wouldn't let go of something. Whenever someone describes themselves as driven, I now want to know what they're driven by, because if you think about it, you can be super, super ambitious, but still not be driven, because super ambitious people set their own goals, and when they get there, they're happy with them. Driven people are not happy. They think they will be because they think if I just get that one, if I just achieve that one, I'll be fine. And when you get there,

Brian Moore3:51

It's not what you think it's going to be, and there's something else.

Brian Moore3:54

And if you look at a if you sit down and look at a list of things, you'd say, actually, that's not not a bad list in the end when you shuffle off your Mortal Coil, and yet each one has not

Brian Moore4:05

Brought the Control.

Presenter4:06

Tenmen the

Brian Moore4:07

But I thought it.

Presenter4:07

It would. Yes, contentment, that's just the word I was about to bring up then. Do do do you have fleeting moments of contentment? Do you consider yourself more content than you once were, or is contentment still a long way off?

Brian Moore4:17

I get more moments than I did.

Brian Moore4:20

But I've got a a mechanism inside my head that says this: is when I get to a situation where

Brian Moore4:26

I feel contentment. And and it's usually with a family, you know, where daughters have done something.

Brian Moore4:31

My my problem has been that

Brian Moore4:33

I've got a s a sabotage mechanism that that says

Brian Moore4:36

Be careful about that, you know, because it's not real and it might go wrong and then you'll be hurt a lot, so.

Presenter4:41

Put it.

Brian Moore4:43

Don't get too close to that. But it's it's has to it has to be put away now, and I'm f I I'm trying, but

Brian Moore4:49

It and it gets easier with the with the with time and speaking about it, but it's still not easy.

Presenter4:55

Let's have some music, Brian. First of all, today, what are we gonna hear?

Brian Moore4:59

Um, we're going to hear the uh Queen of the Night aria. I like operating me, but the first time I heard this at the ENO.

Brian Moore5:07

The shiver and the froiss that I had down my spine, and this is not an exaggeration, was was similar to standing before an anthem before before an international, and I just think this is a a fine example of the brilliance of opera and

Brian Moore5:24

I I won't ever forget the first time I heard this because it was a special moment.

Speaker 45:45

Stool H

Speaker 45:56

Uh

Speaker 45:59

Oh man.

Speaker 46:03

I'm the priest that I'm

Presenter6:26

Eda Moser and the Queen of the Night Aria from the second act of the Magic Flute by Mozart with the orchestra of the Bavarian State Opera conducted by Wolfgang Zivalisch. So Brian Moore, I saw a photograph of you, I'm not sure which international match it was in, but there you were standing with the England strip on, you know, your ears bandaged against your head and you looked like I thought you had just suffered a terrific injury, but in fact the caption at the bottom says you were singing the national anthem.

Brian Moore6:51

I know, yes, and I'm a Republican as well, which um is very strange. I'm not I'm just not articulate enough to to to convey.

Brian Moore6:59

The experience of standing on a field in your country's jersey with your teammates, whether it's at at Twickenham when everyone's for you, or it's at Murrayfield when everyone's not for you. There's fear, failure, there's thrill, there's passion, there's there's honour for your country, etcetera. And it really is an amalgam which is so potent and I it is like a drug, and I understand why some sports people when they finish, you know, seek

Brian Moore7:24

to try and recreate that artificially, which which you which you can't. And I was lucky enough to do it more than once. I know I can't play any more'cause I'm fifty now and I'm I'm too f unfiduit, but I would I would like to run out and have an anthem just once to feel that. That would be quite special.

Presenter7:39

You spent, I mean, untypically, I think, for someone from your background, you spent six years of your life. I think it was living right in the centre of Soho. I did. Well, you know.

Brian Moore7:46

I did. Well, you know you know why? Because most people's pans, when they work, certainly if they've

Brian Moore7:51

if they've been to university and whatever yeah and they go into professional they they'll come down to London

Brian Moore7:55

They just are let free. Now, because from the age of sort of 16 onwards, really, and I was very, very disciplined about training and so on.

Brian Moore8:03

I d I hadn't had a period like that. And when I finished and the brakes were let off, I just went completely crazy, really.

Presenter8:10

Did you go for it? Because it was just listening to you say there that you know, once it you can't get it on the field, a lot of people try and get it off the field, whether they're rock stars or whether they're sports stars. So that that the six years in Soho was that hell for leather. Yes, it was.

Brian Moore8:11

It was just

Brian Moore8:16

The fuel

Brian Moore8:22

Yes, it was. It was my I I needed I needed you know I

Brian Moore8:27

Living in Soho, I don't think there was much that I didn't either drink or.

Brian Moore8:32

do drugs wise. And at the end of the day, you know, I was a lawyer as well at the time and getting back in at four in the morning and then going to work, you just couldn't do it in the end. And it and it went wrong, you know. And did it get the better of you then? Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Presenter8:43

Under the

Brian Moore8:50

With a lot of other things, is I just wasn't satisfied with bits and pieces.

Brian Moore8:53

I had some time at Sporting Chance, dealing with some issues down in Hampshire and whatever. And it

Presenter8:59

This is Tony Adams' organization that helps with addiction at first point.

Brian Moore9:00

The organization that helps with addiction issues. It was bound to come unstuck in the end. Having said that, when people say, Would you do it? I don't think I could have done it a different way. You know, from the age of 16 to 35, you know, literally, and this is not an exaggeration, every minute that I wasn't actually working or in a relationship or whatever, you know, I was thinking about rugby and training or playing or preparing for something. And I was very disciplined and I didn't go out a lot and whatever you know. And when I found I could, it was an extraordinary time. But in the end, you can't live a normal life and party like that because the two don't fit.

Brian Moore9:37

Let's have some music. What's our second disc? The second one actually is Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick, which is Ian During the Blockades. And you know how some memories are so acute that not only do you get them intellectually, but you smell things and you feel things are tactile. This was a song that every month the All Boys Rugby Club from my school allowed the six formers to come down and have their own evening called a thrash and Ian Dury was part of it and I just remember being on the dance floor. I remember it was, it was a hot, sticky night and the hormones are surging through you when you're 17 and as soon as I hear this it takes me back to the old Crossley's Clubhouse at Standheaven House and various girlfriends and friends and

Brian Moore10:21

He's great.

Brian Moore10:23

In the desert

Speaker 310:23

Sh

Speaker 310:25

Both Sudan

Speaker 310:27

And the gardens?

Speaker 310:29

Of Japan.

Speaker 310:32

From Milan

Speaker 310:36

Every woman was

Speaker 310:39

Every May.

Speaker 310:42

Hit me with your rhythm mistake. Hit me!

Speaker 310:45

Hit me!

Speaker 310:46

Shit, Ich Libani, hit me, hit me, hit me.

Presenter10:50

That was Iain Dury and the Blockheads and hit me with your rhythm stick. So, Brian, we should go back, shouldn't we? We should go back to Halifax, where you were part of what you've described as a rainbow family. And you've said that was years before Angelina Jolie or Madonna thought of the colours.

Brian Moore11:04

Yeah, my my siblings were two English uh were natural to my parents. Then there was me who is half Malaysian, half English, my brother who is half Welsh, half Pakistani, and then uh two other sisters who are are Hong Kong Chinese, and I'm in Halifax and I'm on a council estate called Illingworth.

Presenter11:24

You know, being half Malaysian, did you feel that there was an amount of attention? And then being part of a family that was not a coherent structure to look at in the way that other families are, did you feel that as a part of the family?

Brian Moore11:24

You know

Brian Moore11:33

I tell you, I felt I f the feelings of displacement and et cetera, that I felt had nothing to do with ethnicity. They were the fact of being adopted, which is a completely different thing. And this affects some people a lot, other people hardly at all.

Presenter11:46

You were adopted as a baby. When was the time when you decided, as indeed you did, that it was important for you to seek out your birth mother and make that connection?

Presenter11:55

Yeah.

Brian Moore11:55

I had a sort of a dabble when I first went to university'cause I became curious. But around um

Brian Moore12:01

thirty thirty five around it. I just just felt that

Presenter12:03

I I I had to. So you were compelled to in your mid-thirties and I felt compelled to, yes. Right. And you found out that you were one of uh three children in this family. You being the firstborn were put up for adoption and your siblings were still together with your mother. Your father w was uh sometimes engaged in the family and sometimes not. He c he came in.

Brian Moore12:07

And I felt

Brian Moore12:12

His family.

Brian Moore12:20

We'll see how it's done.

Brian Moore12:24

Yeah, I understand in the end he had three families, which was um very good for um world population but not necessarily for his families, but uh had a phone call and then uh a meeting and it very very difficult anyway because

Brian Moore12:38

The difficulties are

Brian Moore12:40

I f I'm fairly sure.

Brian Moore12:42

You know, it was a a horrendous, awful thing.

Brian Moore12:45

enough I have to do. However,

Brian Moore12:48

You know

Brian Moore12:50

As a protection mechanism, you naturally want to assume that the circumstances that led to this were so acute that at the time they really weren't it wasn't a choice and it had to be done.

Brian Moore13:01

This came more into focus when I had my own children because

Brian Moore13:06

On the one hand you can say, look, it's a very altruistic thing. You can look at it that way. You can also look at it when you have the birth of and you see your children born and you hold them and think nothing on this earth would ever take this child from me, short of being shot.

Brian Moore13:21

It's it's unavoidable. It's unavoidable when you th when you say, well

Brian Moore13:26

What about the other two?

Presenter13:26

Two.

Brian Moore13:27

Yeah.

Presenter13:28

To find that out um to me

Presenter13:31

It occurs to me that m that must have been a a very uh difficult thing to uh well, to use the phrase, get your head around, doesn't really cover it.

Brian Moore13:37

I'll tell you what was difficult is that.

Brian Moore13:43

What happens is that you carry it all on yourself. You say, I don't want to go there because it might upset someone. And then you think, actually, well, it's really upsetting me and it's been upsetting me for a long time. And actually, I didn't create this situation. And I know it's difficult, but uh this is something that needs to be talked about. You know, I haven't spoken to my uh natural mother now for for a number of years, I think. I don't think she wasn't very happy about the revelations in in the autobiography and and I understand that, but what I would say is that

Brian Moore14:12

You know, I've carried them as well, you know, and if at the end of the day

Brian Moore14:17

There's been pain caused.

Brian Moore14:19

then it's shared now. And I don't mean that in a

Brian Moore14:23

Vindictive way, it's just that until you allow yourself to feel these things, you you can't you can't move on.

Brian Moore14:30

And I've started to move on and it would be nice if if, you know, if we could speak to each other and and move on as well.

Presenter14:36

The other important people in in this story, which is your story and also their story, of course, are the people who did adopt you, the people who were there to bring you up and give you their love, care and attention for all those years. How did it affect them when you decided that you wanted to contact your birth mother?

Brian Moore14:50

Um well I my med my father unfortunately died now, but uh my mother

Brian Moore14:56

It was the only thing I've ever heard of Boca, really.

Brian Moore15:00

And I know that she didn't like it at all.

Brian Moore15:04

But then I'm faced with this dilemma.

Brian Moore15:06

Do I not go forward with something that's causing me a problem that I need to try and explore, because it might hurt someone else?

Brian Moore15:14

There's a big difference in all these things, and I I don't know if I can explain this properly. There is a big difference between understanding something intellectually and thinking, Oh, yes, I understand that and know that that's right, but actually feeling it. Of course, yes. And and whilst she may I can tell her all these things that she won't be replaced as a mother in that sense and whatever

Brian Moore15:32

I she perhaps doesn't feel that and that's that's the difficulty for her.

Presenter15:37

Let's have some music, Brian. We're on our our third track. What are we gonna hear?

Brian Moore15:42

Now, um this is a song from my favourite all-time band, the very non-trendy band called Genesis. It's called In the Cage. It was when Peter Gabriel was a member of the band. This is a track I liked when I was a seven-year-old. It's not commercial. I don't know why it struck a chord in me, but it did, and it's been a lifelong thing. And I love the band, and I love this track, and I'm not going to try and justify it anymore, actually.

Presenter16:39

That was Genesis and In the Cage. So Brian, you have written very candidly about the the sexual abuse that you suffered by a teacher uh at school. You you say you think you were around about nine or ten.

Presenter16:52

When it all happened, why did you decide to write about it?

Presenter16:56

When I decided

Brian Moore16:57

But to do

Brian Moore16:59

The autobiography

Brian Moore17:00

Fifteen years or so after I'd finished playing and lots of things had happened to me i in in in life.

Brian Moore17:07

I thought I'd dealt with this subject matter by not thinking about it and by pushing it down and saying it hasn't affected me, no problem at all. It obviously had in lots of ways that I didn't understand. And from that point onwards I thought, actually, you've got to try and do something about this. And also, actually,

Brian Moore17:23

Writing about it and speaking about it has helped an awful lot.

Presenter17:26

Yeah.

Presenter17:26

The sexual abuser was worked as a teacher and his modus was to was to take favoured boys on small camping trips where you would where you would all um share a tent. He he was also significantly a friend of the family and he was also a member of the the local church which your parents were an important part of.

Brian Moore17:35

Yeah

Brian Moore17:45

Yeah, I mean and it turns out there could have been anywhere between a dozen but over a hundreds. Not all of the things continued um like mine did uh away from the the field trips and what have you. Um what what got me about the mendacity of all this was my mother was actually the school secretary.

Brian Moore18:04

At the same time.

Brian Moore18:06

So he would sit in the

Brian Moore18:08

Staff room with my mother there, knowing

Brian Moore18:10

What was going on was quite

Brian Moore18:12

Chilling really.

Presenter18:14

The abuser is is dead now. It was a long time before you you went public and spoke about this.

Brian Moore18:19

I never named him actually.

Presenter18:20

Yeah.

Brian Moore18:21

Segaly Mill went and found it.

Presenter18:22

Yeah.

Brian Moore18:23

Or found the identity by by by bringing lots of other people up who who confirmed that similar things had had happened and it wasn't uh an invention. I didn't see the point in naming him really, because he's

Brian Moore18:33

His family

Brian Moore18:35

will have been as appalled as as everyone else and it's not their fault.

Presenter18:38

Um you've said that in exploring it it helped you to to understand some of the less rational parts of your life, actions and reactions. Um was part of that, the the anger and aggression that you've always had inside you?

Brian Moore18:49

I'm I'm sure you know, I'm sure it was. Um

Brian Moore18:53

And again, I hesitate to say anything by way of advice, but I think this is right.

Brian Moore19:00

If you can find

Brian Moore19:02

It within you to tell someone about it.

Brian Moore19:05

You'll never

Brian Moore19:07

from that point on be alone. You might still be lonely, but there's a very, very big difference. And whilst you carry this on your own, you don't have a chance of dealing with it successfully.

Presenter19:18

Let's have some more music, Brian Merriman. Uh tell me w about your next choice.

Brian Moore19:24

Well, this is a I mean it's a stunning piece of music. Barbara's adagio for strings and this is a very poignant thing for me. It was played at uh

Brian Moore19:31

The funeral of a a friend of mine from school who died when he was quite young of a a drug overdose.

Brian Moore19:37

What a waste, you know, it was something what a waste of a life. And and and I sometimes I do I can't play and I can't listen to it because it brings back, but it's a very, very poignant thing and I it touches your s it touches my soul anyway, and because of that, you know, it touches other areas and I think it's sublime.

Presenter20:53

That was part of Barbara's Adagio for Strings, performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted there by Andre Preven. Let's talk a bit then, Brian Moore, about potential. You you referred there to the loss of potential of your friend who died at seventeen from a drugs overdose. You, however, you're a very bright school pupil. You did very well in lessons and you did obviously very well in sport.

Brian Moore21:14

Um

Brian Moore21:15

I

Brian Moore21:16

Seem to have the ability.

Brian Moore21:18

to get information in, remember it, get it out on an exam paper and then probably forget about it straight away, which is great for exams. The the pressure of exams generally makes me perform better.

Presenter21:30

Uh you said that at school you were inventively subversive.

Presenter21:34

Give us a sample, what did you get up to?

Brian Moore21:36

Um

Brian Moore21:37

When I was asked to pres present the six form prizes,

Brian Moore21:41

And I went back and I was determined not to be tedious, uh as other speakers have been, and I didn't really know what to say, I didn't plan anything. I said, Do you remember there was a fire in the cellars in nineteen seventy six and a fire break? I said, Well, that was me and my friend Mark Illingworth. Under my school, which was an orphanage, it was all bricked off, but there was a whole section underneath you could crawl underneath the whole school.

Brian Moore22:02

Because we didn't have any torches, so we we set fire somewhere and we got out of hand and we sort of legged it and I saw things like that. I wasn't a a destructive pupil in the sense that you know I wasn't violent way or you know, I wasn't badly behaved. I tell you what I was, I was the thing that teachers really don't like, is someone who was clever about being disrespectful and being cheeky, which is really, really, really winds people up. And it's not good at all. I'm not proud of it, but I was quite good at it. And and sport, because I lived in between sort of two councillor states and when I was in my early teens, the people I knocked around with were the people who were who lived round me. You know, a lot of them went on to, you know, to criminal careers. And had I stayed out with them instead of playing sport and and and been able to pass exams, I would have gone the same way because that's what happens. Did your parents come and watch you turn out for the first fifteen and in

Presenter22:51

Two.

Brian Moore22:52

No, not not really. They didn't but they had other things to do. They they were very busy. They they saw the international games, so.

Presenter22:52

Uh no.

Presenter22:58

When did what was your first one? That was against Scotland, wasn't it? Against Scotland at uh ninety seven, yes. Um anybody who watched you play against Scotland, Brian Muir, would know that it did get terribly personal. And anybody who listens to you commentate when you're commentating Scotland would know that you are listening.

Brian Moore23:01

1977.

Brian Moore23:09

Oh that's copy.

Brian Moore23:13

Let's say you you're far from impartial. That's a really unfair thing to say actually. And I'm look I'm as impartial as as I as I can be. At the end of the day, I try to be in the middle, but for me to be on an in accord with

Presenter23:27

It would appear to be a losing battle. Let me know.

Brian Moore23:29

I don't want to completely lose a battle. I understand that. Hands up. Hands up are completely losing battle. At the end of the day, you don't have rivalries against people you don't.

Brian Moore23:37

care about or or or in a sense, you know, the antipathy. I'm not for the Scots. I like the belligerence in the same way I like the French belligerence. If I was Scottish, Scottish people would absolutely love me.

Presenter23:40

The antimicrobial

Brian Moore23:49

Yes, we would. Yeah. You're right, but you're not. But I'm not. And I'm glad. Sorry. That's not going to cause trouble, is it? Oh, no, no, no. Let's have some music, Brian. What are we going to hear? Um, well.

Brian Moore24:01

Funnily enough, talking about antipathy north of the border and every other border really, um it's Pink Floyd, us and them, which sums it up rather nicely really, doesn't it?

Speaker 424:16

And then

Speaker 424:25

And of the role.

Speaker 424:28

We're only ordinary men.

Presenter24:40

That was Pink Floyd and us and them. So, Brian Moore, there is a part of you that you call Gollum. Tell tell me about Gollum.

Brian Moore24:48

Everyone has an alter ego. I'm a Tolkien nerd. I I hesitate to say this in a way because it makes me sound mad, but I can have conversations with myself and the Gollum is a destructive inference that will say to me when you say yes, you've got the three grand slams. As I'm about to say, Yes, I did. Gollum will be the part of me that will come in and say, Oh, yes, but you didn't win a World Cup final, did you? When you say you won the William Hill Sports Book of the Year and the Bree Sports Awards Book of the Year, Gollum will come in and say, That's only because you made those revelations. Anyone would have won if they'd been able to tell that story. And that sort of thing that goes on constantly. And the best thing, because it's part of me to say, Thank you, I've heard what you say, now go away. Not to engage in a long, fruitless discussion which you'll never win.

Presenter25:32

There is a very vivid incident. I'm thinking back now to nineteen ninety one i in the changing rooms after um England's Grand Slam victory, where Gollum well, he did win then, he got the better of you. Tell me what happened.

Presenter25:47

Well

Brian Moore25:48

Um

Presenter25:48

Yeah.

Brian Moore25:50

I didn't think I'd deserve to be there, actually. Um funnily enough, at the height of

Brian Moore25:55

The height of these these triumphs is when the the the golem kicked in, at its most destructive.

Presenter26:02

Is it self-worth? Do you feel like all these completely self-worthy?

Brian Moore26:03

Yes, it's completely self-worth. Yes, completely.

Presenter26:07

And so you you are not in any of the official photographs of the winning

Brian Moore26:09

No, no, I'm not.

Presenter26:11

Where did you go?

Brian Moore26:12

The

Presenter26:12

Yeah.

Brian Moore26:12

Go.

Presenter26:12

Uh

Brian Moore26:12

I stayed in the changing room. I didn't uh

Brian Moore26:15

I didn't want to go outside. I d I it's not logical, it's not anything I can explain that will make any sense t to anyone. I didn't feel like I deserved to go up and I didn't go up. I was r I was

Presenter26:26

Bro

Brian Moore26:27

Yeah.

Presenter26:27

It's the proportion of it, you see. I mean, most people, of course, we have those voices of self-doubt, and often they can be very loud, and often many of us go through our lives feeling like we're frauds who are just about to be found out in one aspect or another.

Brian Moore26:38

But yeah,

Presenter26:39

It wouldn't usually be so overpowering as to stop us actually living and enjoying the moment that might be the absolute pinnacle of our of our professional career. No, you're right. The only thing I

Brian Moore26:50

I would say Is that

Brian Moore26:53

Everyone's

Brian Moore26:55

The proportion of natural self-doubt is not necessarily driven by the same

Brian Moore27:00

Powers that I think drive mine.

Brian Moore27:02

And hopefully, I'll tell you what one of my aims is to get to a point where actually.

Brian Moore27:07

At some point in life I can look back at whatever C V I I've I've accumulated and say actually.

Brian Moore27:13

That's not bad, and I'm I'm quite and I'm genuinely quite content with that.

Presenter27:18

Let's have some music, Brian.

Presenter27:20

Uh we're on this

Brian Moore27:21

Sixth. Disc

Brian Moore27:23

Yes, and this is the stranglers, always the sun. This is a

Brian Moore27:26

A track which I played continuously and pathologically, because that's the way I'm on an England tour of Australia. But I'll tell you what else it reminds me of. I met one of the stranglers in my so-ho incarnation, and I was saying to him, you know, I love the band, and tell me about these things. And he said to me, you know, well.

Brian Moore27:46

He said the stories about groupies he said the true. He said I had two sisters knocked on my door in a hotel in Leeds telling me they wanted to be my sex slaves. He said that I stopped seeing them eventually, he said, because I'd run out of things to do. And I said that's rock and roll, baby. Uh it's it's Strangler's Always a Son. It's just a brilliant track as well.

Speaker 428:05

Who has the fun?

Speaker 428:08

Said I was a man with a gun

Speaker 428:11

Someone must have told him if you work too hard, you can swear

Speaker 428:19

So with the surrounding

Speaker 428:22

There's always the sun

Speaker 428:25

Always, always, always

Presenter28:35

That was the Stranglers and Always The Sun. You're married now, Brian Moore, for the third time, on the basis that practice makes perfect. Are you getting better at it?

Brian Moore28:45

I'm not the right person to ask, I don't think, really.

Presenter28:47

Yeah.

Brian Moore28:47

Yeah.

Presenter28:47

You did swear off it for a while after your second marriage collapsed, did you?

Brian Moore28:48

But

Brian Moore28:50

Well, the thing was I said, Yeah, I won't do anything for two years, I won't have a serious relationship. I promised myself that. And then, you know, I met Belinda within a year and it's like the rule that people tell you don't buy the first house you see. Well, what if the first house you see is the right one?

Brian Moore29:05

I feel as certain as I can that this will be the the last time, I don't want anything else.

Presenter29:10

And what about what about Belinda? Because when somebody who's been married twice before asks you to marry them.

Brian Moore29:16

Position, isn't it? What do you like to be missing more the third?

Brian Moore29:19

She deserves a lot of credit, doesn't she, for taking on someone who's who's patently so badly flawed, and also with a history. And and that must be really difficult to deal with. We have a child uh imaging from from a second marriage.

Brian Moore29:31

anyone who's a a step parent will know that's a really difficult position to be in. Whatever you do doesn't seem to be right, it's hard. And she deserves a lot of credit for bringing some normality and and sticking sticking, you know, with it. I don't think any s

Brian Moore29:46

Top Sportsman

Brian Moore29:48

A woman is normal.

Brian Moore29:50

I there's something about them which is a a madness, a a pathology, that that makes them continue to drive in a way that long before the people would have given up. Whether or not it's b because they're spurred on, as I was, by feelings of self-worth or whatever, or whether it's something positive. Matt Pinson is a an example of of someone who who always was positive, but they're not normal and because they're not normal, they're not normal to live with either. And when people retire, they're they're there.

Brian Moore30:18

And there are difficulties because A, they're not normal and B they've had to give something up and C they're around where they weren't before.

Brian Moore30:25

Let's have some more music then, Brian. What's next?

Presenter30:27

Sniper

Brian Moore30:32

Jesus of Suburbia

Brian Moore30:33

It will wake people up if you need to at this time of the morning. It's simply a piece of musical belligerence.

Speaker 430:56

The riddle that

Speaker 430:59

I never done it.

Presenter31:07

That was Green Day and Jesus of Suburbia. A nice little portion of ranting for you there on the desert island, Brian. Where I suppose one of the things I wouldn't have expected, and I know a lot about you from watching you play and from reading about you, is that you are.

Presenter31:19

Well, you're very metrosexual, aren't you? Here you've been today talking to me about feelings. You're wearing a lovely pink checked shirt, and you used to run a nail bar.

Brian Moore31:25

Alright.

Brian Moore31:28

Yes, um I am a genuinely opi qualified nail manicurist. Um how on earth? Because my second wife and I opened we didn't make any money actually, but uh opened a nail bar in Soho and it was it was three doors away from Madame Jojo's which is the transsexual lap dancing bar. Did you actually do the nail? I did some, yeah. I tell you what it was, I I just thought, look, if you're gonna b invest some money in this, why not

Presenter31:45

Did you actually do the nail?

Brian Moore31:51

At least understand the business, and I thought I'd be a laugh. And actually, I enjoyed it. Somebody I know once saw you on the tube with your nails painted.

Presenter31:58

Um I probably I don't know, I probably

Brian Moore32:00

We drug

Presenter32:00

Uh

Presenter32:02

Yeah. What about the machismo, though, of the rugby culture? I mean, you know more than anybody that rugby's been in the news for all the wrong reasons recently. You know, the headlines about drunken late nights and the lewd behaviour and the dwarf-throwing and all that. I mean, that culture does still pervade rugby, it would seem. That sort of very.

Brian Moore32:08

Very

Presenter32:18

kind of match oh boozing for the sake of it kind of boozing

Brian Moore32:22

Yeah, it does. And and and and long may it be so at junior level. The thing is you can't do it now at a an international and professional level. That's all it is. And it's no good the players now saying, Well, in your day,'cause we're not in my day.

Presenter32:22

And I'm not sure.

Presenter32:29

Uh

Brian Moore32:32

And things are different. And I tell you what, in my day people didn't have camera phones.

Brian Moore32:37

And you couldn't put videos of a minute and a half's behaviour onto YouTube and Twitter and it'd be round the world instantaneously.

Presenter32:46

It sounds as though it's been quite a long and certainly a hard struggle to get to a degree of acceptance with a a lot of the the things that you've been through, understandably. Do you do you feel you're at a point in your life now where

Presenter32:59

You can sit back and maybe even for a moment or two

Presenter33:02

Allow yourself to take credit and feel a sense of achievement.

Brian Moore33:06

Um I'm trying.

Brian Moore33:09

And that's about as far as I've got. On on an emotional scale of, you know, um I'm at about letter C, but that's good'cause I wasn't even I wasn't in the alphabet before.

Brian Moore33:20

So maybe in a few years' time I might get to H or or G A maybe.

Brian Moore33:25

Let's have your final piece of music, Breiner.

Brian Moore33:27

This is the uh intabetzo from the Cavaleria Rusticana and besides just being a fantastic orchestrated piece of music, it is actually the closing music to a trilogy of films, the Godfather trilogy.

Brian Moore33:43

This thing, to me though the ending.

Brian Moore33:45

Is brilliant because it is Shakespearean tragedy in the way that I was taught it at school. And you can see right from his earliest.

Brian Moore33:52

Time.

Brian Moore33:53

He is going to end up in that position and there's nothing he can do about it.

Presenter34:45

The intermezzo from Mascagni's Caballeria Rusticana, the Philharmonia Orchestra, conducted by Riccardo Mutti.

Presenter34:53

So this is the point then, Brian, where we give you the books. I'll give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you're allowed to take a book along.

Presenter35:00

Just take

Brian Moore35:01

Um

Brian Moore35:03

I would pick um Jerminal.

Brian Moore35:06

Zola

Presenter35:07

I'll give you that. Let me give you Germanal. And and what about a luxury?

Presenter35:11

I tell what I take, I take football. Hello?

Brian Moore35:13

What not a rugby football? Well, you can't do a lot with it. You you a rugby you need people to pass to. It's not the same. With a football you can juggle and you can mess about and you can be physical and

Brian Moore35:22

I could play imaginary games, which I'd always win, which would be good.

Presenter35:25

Okay, you may have a football. And if you had to choose just one of these eight discs to save, which one would you choose?

Brian Moore35:34

I would um

Brian Moore35:36

Te the queen the knight horror.

Presenter35:37

Right.

Brian Moore35:38

Yeah.

Presenter35:38

Yeah.

Brian Moore35:38

It's yours.

Presenter35:38

Brian Weir, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Presenter35:42

Thank you.

Presenter36:16

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter36:19

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4