Sir Martin Sorrell

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the businessman Sir Martin Sorrell.

Presenter0:38

He's been called the world's most influential adman. Focus, intensity and determination have powered him to the very top. He's the founder and chief executive of WPP, the world's biggest advertising agency. His grandparents came to Britain from Russia, signing their marriage registration with a cross because they couldn't speak English. By contrast, communication in all its guises has been their grandson's forte.

Presenter1:03

He says building a company is the nearest thing a man can do to giving birth and nurturing a child to maturity.

Presenter1:10

It's that intense, then, is it? It's that personal. It's not just business for you, Martin Sawyer.

Sir Martin Sorrell1:14

Um it didn't no, it isn't just business, because you c you create something or you start something, which uh for me was at the age the ripe old age of forty, which is very intimate and very personal.

Presenter1:14

What's in

Sir Martin Sorrell1:24

When I started off, what I wanted to do was to build a company and manage it. I wanted to be an entrepreneur and be a manager, and we now have a

Sir Martin Sorrell1:33

one hundred and seven country, one hundred and eight country operation and one hundred fifty thousand people in one way or another. And it's intellectually challenging. I mean it th you make mistakes every day, but it's really absorbing. It's much more interesting than it's ever been.

Sir Martin Sorrell1:46

even at the age of sixty six, as the shifts in power that we see, economic, political and social power across the world are very formidable and very interesting at the same time.

Presenter1:57

You've said that when people call me a a micro-manager, I take it as a compliment. Y your hands-on doesn't even cover it, I imagine.

Sir Martin Sorrell2:03

Again, when you start it, if you start with two people in one room twenty-six years ago and you see it build, you know where the bodies are buried or where most of the skeletons are buried. But I do like the detail, and I do think a balance between the strategic and the detail is very important. You've got to have a strategic vision that makes sense in the context of what you're trying to do, and then you have to implement very effectively.

Presenter2:23

Do you think that we are about to go into a double dip recession? Do you think that Britain is heading that way inevitably?

Sir Martin Sorrell2:30

No, I don't think there will be a double dip, famous last words. It's rash to make predictions of that nature, even on Desert Islandists. But having said that, I think the the central problem is this, that we have to come to terms with the fact that we in the West

Presenter2:31

Fantasy.

Sir Martin Sorrell2:44

are losing political, economic and social power. The center of power is slowly shifting to the south, to the southeast, to Africa and the Middle East and to the East. So there's a discomfort amongst us about whether these countries are going to become more powerful, more economically successful.

Presenter3:03

The heart of your business is advertising. We will, of course, talk about that, I hope, a little bit later on. But I'm thinking now of madmen instantly. I'm wondering: are you a Don Draper or are you a Roger Sterling? Wh which one are you? Go.

Sir Martin Sorrell3:14

Probably neither. I'd have to. I would not plead guilty to either. I mean, mad men. I started in the business in what, 1975, if I remember rightly. When I started in the industry, it was slightly different. It wasn't drugs, actually. It wasn't all sex, rock and roll, and drinking. It was a little bit more sophisticated than that. It does pick up.

Sir Martin Sorrell3:38

Elements of what I saw in the mid-seventies, but not all of it was what I saw.

Presenter3:42

We better fit in some music, Martin. Tell me about the first piece we're going to hear this morning.

Sir Martin Sorrell3:43

Hopefully it would try.

Sir Martin Sorrell3:46

Well, the first piece is, um, a piece of jazz. When I was uh

Sir Martin Sorrell3:51

In my teens I used to to go to a a record shop in Charing Cross Road called Doug Do Bells, and uh they had a wonderful collection of uh blue note jazz LPs. One of the records I bought was uh My Fundy Valentine, and in that there's a specific track where

Sir Martin Sorrell4:07

The trumpet playing is sort of magical. It's the sort of music that moves you, or certainly moves me.

Speaker 44:30

After this

Presenter5:10

That was Chet Baker and My Funny Valentine. So we know, Martin Sorrell, that you head up this enormous family of companies. WPP, as you say, is around about one hundred and fifty thousand employees. Individually and collectively, you say that you make the client famous. Can you unpack that a little bit for me? What does that mean?

Sir Martin Sorrell5:27

mean? Well, what we basically in the business is building brands that people, consumers love, identify with, appreciate, value, are loyal to.

Sir Martin Sorrell5:39

And that's why, I mean, for example, when you get into areas like corporate social responsibility, which is a phrase, you know, I don't like it as a phrase, but basically if you're in the business of building brands in the long term, which we are, and which our clients are, you will not do things that offend society, the environment and other stakeholders. What you will do is build brands on the long term in a meaningful way. If you're in business for the short term.

Sir Martin Sorrell6:05

D1.

Presenter6:06

There are plenty of people, I think, who feel that every medium sized to large company these days has these corporate responsibility departments where they're told that this is where we build bridges in communities.

Sir Martin Sorrell6:13

Yeah the tool

Sir Martin Sorrell6:14

There's

Presenter6:16

People might say, you know what, that's lipstick on the gorilla, because as long as somebody at the top is being paid one hundred and sixty times more than somebody further down the chain, Where's your corporate responsibility there? Where's your sense of social conscience there? It d it doesn't it doesn't add up for a lot of people.

Sir Martin Sorrell6:31

Well, I think it does add up in the sense that what people are trying to do, and I think the things that you're referring to, it's not a corporate responsibility department on the side. I think corporate responsibilities is embedded in the strategy of the company. Now, on the question of pay differentials, I think that's a slightly different area. If you take WPP as an example, we started from in one room with two people. We built a company from a million pounds market capitalisation to £8 billion. And this is a significant economic force and even if I do say it myself, a very successful company in the context of the advertising and marketing services industry. And it is a world leader. And if Britain wants world leaders, the system has to allow these companies to flourish. And by the way, in terms of pay and pay differentials, there are, whether we like it or not, comparisons made. It is, whether we like or not, an international marketplace.

Presenter7:33

And of course any country would be grateful for that. They're grateful for people who are willing to take the risks and set up those companies. But I'm wondering when I mean I read, as you know, things in the press are not always true, but I read that your whole package is four and a half million quid that you take home every year. Are you you're comfortable with that? You do that without any sense that the well maybe it's a matter of

Sir Martin Sorrell7:37

Trust

Sir Martin Sorrell7:48

Well that's the theory. I mean f let's sort of go back to a little bit on the history of that. So so when I was forty

Sir Martin Sorrell7:58

I thought it was a last chance saloon in terms of building a business, and I always wanted to build a business. I borrowed £250,000 to invest in stock in what was then called wire and plastic products, a small engineering shell. And I took a risk.

Presenter7:58

Mm.

Speaker 47:59

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell8:12

Over the years, I've sold very little stock. There's only one occasion where I where I sold some stock. I've often the the media say I was given stock. I wasn't given stock. The company had to perform. I had to invest, and in some cases they were matching investment. Never sold that stock. Kept it, paid tax.

Presenter8:21

Copy some

Sir Martin Sorrell8:31

By virtue of the fact that I kept the stock, I paid tax, so I invested more money in the company. Every day when the share price moves up or down, I either gain or suffer as a result. So when you refer refer to a number, whether the number is accurate or inaccurate actually the number you quote is inaccurate, but

Presenter8:46

Dinnac

Sir Martin Sorrell8:47

Because it depends on the performance of the company.

Presenter8:50

Was I too high or too low?

Sir Martin Sorrell8:52

You could be too high or too low depending on the performance of the company. My own view is that the system should work is that if you do well, and do well means do well comparatively, you get rewarded for it. If you don't, you get punished for it.

Presenter9:07

We're going to have some music. Our second piece of the morning, Martin Sorrell. What's it going to be?

Sir Martin Sorrell9:11

It's Astrid Gilberto and Stangoetz and Corcovado. Brazil has always been important in my life. I mean, it's important commercially in my life now, because Brazil is one of those growth markets. But when I was at business school, actually, I remember when we graduated, we said my head group said that we would meet in Rio for Carnival in February in 1969. We graduated in 1968. We said we would meet there. And I was the only mug of the six who actually went down to Rio for Carnival. So Rio and Corcovado in particular has a special place in my heart.

Speaker 49:50

Quiet nights of quiet stars Quiet chords from my guitar Floating on the silence that surrounds us

Speaker 410:03

Quiet thought and quiet dream

Speaker 410:07

Quiet walks by quiet streams And a window that looks out on Cocovado Oh, how lovely

Speaker 410:34

Happen and happy.

Speaker 410:42

This yamo

Presenter10:43

It was Astrid Gilberto and Stan Goetz and Cor Covado. So um let's leave the business to one side for for a little while at least, Martin Sorrell, and talk about family life. You uh you were born on Valentine's Day.

Sir Martin Sorrell10:54

Yes, that's another reason I like my funny Valentine.

Presenter10:57

In 1945 you were born. Tell me about your parents. What kind of people were they?

Sir Martin Sorrell10:58

Right.

Sir Martin Sorrell11:01

Uh well, I was the last chancellor in because my mother had given birth to uh my brother, whose name was Michael, a year before and he died a dry birth. And uh my mother and my father their parents came from Eastern Europe. Uh my father's parents came from uh Ukraine. So they were from Russia and then my mother's parents were from Poland and Romania.

Presenter11:23

I wonder, given the thorny subject of immigration into these lands, um by the standards we set immigrants these days of having a reasonable uh

Sir Martin Sorrell11:25

Yeah.

Presenter11:31

grasp of English and so on. That must give you an interesting perspective, given that your grandparents came here unable to speak English, on on what immigration means and and what it can give rise to within a country.

Sir Martin Sorrell11:32

France

Sir Martin Sorrell11:39

I think on the point system they wouldn't have got in. My grandfather, my Zaider, as we would say in Yiddish, claimed he was over a hundred years old, which we had doubts about. But he claimed he cut off a Cossack's hand w at the age of ten. Again, it was a story we didn't really believe. But when I see the controls on immigration and when I see point systems, I sort of intuitively dislike them and think that I wouldn't be here if those rules were in force at that particular point in time.

Presenter12:09

And as a much longed for child, then, as you say.

Sir Martin Sorrell12:11

Uh

Presenter12:11

The

Sir Martin Sorrell12:12

And

Presenter12:12

Uh

Sir Martin Sorrell12:12

Spoilt Jewish child from north west London.

Presenter12:16

Tell me about that.

Sir Martin Sorrell12:18

No, being an only child is probably and being the last chance, I was probably overindulged.

Presenter12:24

Do you remember being over indulged?

Sir Martin Sorrell12:25

No, I remember my mother wrapping everything up in plastic. Everything in the house was wrapped in plastic. It was amazing that I survived. I that I wasn't wrapped in plastic uh and put in the fridge.

Presenter12:31

It was amazing.

Presenter12:33

I was

Sir Martin Sorrell12:36

Um no, no, this was a typical Jewish mother. Is it that to keep things good, to make things worse? Yes. Yes, actually, and protect things, because uh I think actually it's quite understandable. I mean if you had very little, you were very protective of what you had. I mean, my parents went to my father left school at thirteen.

Sir Martin Sorrell12:54

And was and is to this very day the best friend that I've ever had. I used to talk to him incessantly. I mean, even in the midst of so-called hostile takeovers of JWT in 87 and Ogilvy in 89, he died in 89 just after we acquired Ogilvy. I used to talk to him at least, I would say, three or four times a day. He was a tremendous adviser. But he had to leave school at thirteen.

Sir Martin Sorrell13:19

He had a violin scholarship from uh the Royal School of Music, which he couldn't take up, because he was one of six children, he was the youngest.

Sir Martin Sorrell13:28

And you had to be an earning unit. You had to make money for the family and you couldn't stay on at school. And I think that was that was the essential problem. It looks like it makes you very sad thinking about his hi history.

Presenter13:37

the potentiality of what he could have been and yet the opportunities he didn't have.

Sir Martin Sorrell13:38

The potential.

Sir Martin Sorrell13:41

Yes, I think I think that's true. I mean, I think my mother and my father sacrificed a lot for me because of the challenges and the lack of opportunities that that they had. There was significant anti-Semitism at that time. They lived in the East End of London, so he changed his name and took the name Sorrel. And that's how I ended up as a Sorrel. You say there was anti-Semitism. You suffered that directly yourself? Yes, I did. I remember being on a coach.

Sir Martin Sorrell14:08

I used to play cricket, and one of the guys on the team said to me he said, Sorrel, you're the only one that's different.

Sir Martin Sorrell14:15

And I said, What do you mean by that? and he said, You're Jewish.

Sir Martin Sorrell14:18

I always remember that. So I think, you know, there were those things which were not so subtle.

Sir Martin Sorrell14:23

Um and that that were quite objectionable. And I think I think that

Sir Martin Sorrell14:28

That gives you that sort of extra backbone, probably makes you more determined.

Sir Martin Sorrell14:33

It it gives you uh an extra steel.

Presenter14:36

Let's have some music, Martin Solon.

Presenter14:39

Yeah. Uh

Sir Martin Sorrell14:39

Gracie Fields and Sally in our alleys. So my mother used to play the piano. Her name was Sally.

Sir Martin Sorrell14:45

She used to play this song and roll out the barrel. She worked in a a charity to her dying day, actually. She died when she was ninety. We buried her on her ninetieth birthday. And she used to play the piano not well, but uh very entertainingly. And one of the songs was this

Speaker 415:03

See, falling devil wander away from the alley and field.

Speaker 415:18

Sally, Valley, Mary be Sally, and happy forever my bee.

Presenter15:30

Yeah.

Presenter15:31

That was Gracie Fields and Sally in our alley. Memories there, Martin Sorrell, of your mother playing the piano. Not very well, you see.

Sir Martin Sorrell15:36

Not good.

Presenter15:39

Um is it fair to say then that your parents were ambitious for you?

Sir Martin Sorrell15:42

Yes, I think they were. I mean, they came from a what some people called the the Jewish ghetto in nor in north west London. You know, it was a very sort of uh tight community.

Sir Martin Sorrell15:52

My parents were very concerned about my education.

Sir Martin Sorrell15:55

and made considerable sacrifices to make sure that I got the best that they could.

Presenter16:00

And your father did well. He was successful. He never ran his own company.

Sir Martin Sorrell16:04

No, he never did. He he ran about seven hundred and fifty stores. It was, I guess, the Dixons or Curries of the fifties and sixties. I used to go with him on a weekend to look at uh potential sites.'Cause he was a detail merchant as well, which is probably where I get it from.

Presenter16:04

Not

Sir Martin Sorrell16:19

The great gift he had, which I haven't got, is he has had tremendous time for anything. He could always make time.

Sir Martin Sorrell16:27

So if he was working very hard, he could always carve out time.

Sir Martin Sorrell16:31

To talk to somebody, to talk to me, to my kids, or whatever, about anything and everything. Quite extraordinary.

Sir Martin Sorrell16:39

Because I think my only my only regret

Sir Martin Sorrell16:43

Well, two regrets. One is that he didn't live longer, that he died of cancer in seventy f when he was seventy four in nineteen eighty nine. So that would be that I didn't have more time. The other thing is I regret that he didn't have his own business, because I think he would have been uh immensely successful on his own.

Presenter16:58

And so as you say, he he died in nineteen eighty nine. And uh given that you spoke to him by your own description three or four times a day, yes, do since he's gone, do do you try to connect with what his advice might be at times?

Sir Martin Sorrell17:04

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell17:11

I try, it's very difficult to imagine in all situations what he. I mean, he had some fundamental values which were.

Sir Martin Sorrell17:19

which one tries and employs, but it's difficult. It's very difficult. I mean, I think everybody in business h has to have somebody who doesn't have an agenda, but somebody that you can talk to off the record for open and transparent advice.

Presenter17:34

Let's have uh some more music then. What are we gonna hear now?

Sir Martin Sorrell17:37

Well, number four is Itzhak Polman playing the theme from Schindler's List. It's partly because my father was a violinist, so Itzhoch Perlman is playing violin. Partly to remind me where we all came from. And last probably but not least, wonderful film. I love films. But it's another great, great film that I remember. So Schindler's List.

Presenter18:32

Itzhak Perlman playing the theme from Schindler's List with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra conducted by the composer, John Williams. You went on to uh Cambridge, Martin Sorlem. One of the friends you made there was Simon Sharma, Professor at Columbia University.

Sir Martin Sorrell18:45

Yeah.

Presenter18:47

Yes. When you were young mates, students together, you went travelling. Where was it you went?

Sir Martin Sorrell18:50

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell18:51

Well, we went uh we the first year

Sir Martin Sorrell18:54

I was sixty-four. We went to the Democratic Convention in Atlantic City. We'd been to the platform hearings in Washington before and we met Bobby Kennedy.

Sir Martin Sorrell19:03

The Kennedy family and a number of other people. And it was amazing because.

Sir Martin Sorrell19:09

It was one year after the assassination of J F K.

Sir Martin Sorrell19:11

So Lyndon Johnson comes down to the convention uh floor in Atlantic City, which is very unusual for a sitting President apparently to do that. And Simon and I managed to be on the podium, and we we avoided the security sweep.

Sir Martin Sorrell19:26

that was made before the the sitting president, the incumbent president came down to Atlantic City. That was one thing we did. Uh one year we went to America and had a very bad car crash. Uh it was one of the nights of the World's Fair and I was in a car crash and uh was hospitalized and and operated on. That was one year. And then the following year what were your injuries? Uh facial. You know, my my parents had to fly across uh

Sir Martin Sorrell19:49

Very quickly, an artery, artery severed. So I lost a lot of blood. I think it was fairly serious.

Presenter19:55

How old were you then when that happened?

Sir Martin Sorrell19:56

I was sixty-four, so I was nineteen. So that was one year. And then we decided that we wanted to go to the East. We'd seen the West. So we went to Berlin when Berlin was a divided city. And then we travelled from East Berlin to Prague. That was the first stop. When we were in Prague, we went to Theresienstadt, Teretsin. And that made a very deep impact on both Simon and myself. And I remember we went to this very famous art collection by kids in Theresienstadt. And I remember Simon saying, you know, there were two.

Sir Martin Sorrell20:28

different types of pictures. One is the day-to-day life of the camp, you know, the guards and the dogs and the barbed wire and everything.

Presenter20:29

One is

Sir Martin Sorrell20:34

And the other, the sort of um surrealistic

Sir Martin Sorrell20:39

Idealistic pictures of heaven and God and fantasy and very moving in its way.

Presenter20:46

And when you say it made a big impression on you, w how do you think it changed you? How did it change your view of the world?

Sir Martin Sorrell20:50

Um, it it made a very deep impression because, in a way, it's what what I said before in relation to Shenzhen's list reminds you of where you.

Sir Martin Sorrell20:58

Came from and to be grateful.

Sir Martin Sorrell21:01

for what you have and really um

Sir Martin Sorrell21:04

To uh not complain about your lot when you think about what your lot could have been.

Sir Martin Sorrell21:11

Let's hear your fifth disc. Okay, well when I was at at uh Cambridge and then at Harvard, the Beatles were in full flight. Um no particular reason why the Fool on the Hill other than it's nineteen sixty seven, so it neatly bridges my three years at Cambridge, which ended in 1966, and my two years at Harvard, which it ended in'68. So this will remind me of

Sir Martin Sorrell21:34

Cambridge, Harvard, Simon Sharma, and everything else at that time.

Speaker 421:39

Day after day

Speaker 421:42

Alone on a hill

Speaker 421:45

The man with the foolish grin Is keeping perfectly still

Speaker 421:52

Nobody wants to know him, they can see that he's just a fool.

Speaker 421:59

And he never gives an answer But the fool on the hill Sees the sun going down

Presenter22:09

That was the Beatles and the Fool on the Hill. Um you spent time at Harvard Business School. Quite often for people that's the thing. It it's not just the business that they learn that they take away from that to to apply in their professional life. It changes people often profoundly personally. Do you think it had an effect on you personally?

Sir Martin Sorrell22:26

Yeah, my mother always used to say it changed me for the worse.

Sir Martin Sorrell22:29

She was not so sure that it changed me for the best. No, it was a hothouse. I mean, the problem with Harvard Business School is you come out, you know, you're in a hothouse and you're it's sort of like a greyhound in the traps and then they open the the trap and you think you can change the world and you can't change the world.

Presenter22:33

No, it was

Presenter22:45

Given that mother knows best, what do you think she was getting at then? Does she think it made you a little bit too sort of big-headed, pig-headed?

Sir Martin Sorrell22:51

Not big, I hope not big-headed or pig-headed, but probably maybe a little bit too business-focused. And you know, it one of the things that was interesting at business school, there was this Venn diagram. The three concentric circles were or the interlinking type of circles. The first one was family, the second one was career, and the third well was society. It's a question about how you balance the three things.

Presenter23:15

How have you done?

Sir Martin Sorrell23:16

I well, I I think in my case, you know, I've uh imbalanced my life at various stages and probably emphasised career more than family.

Sir Martin Sorrell23:29

Is that a problem?

Presenter23:30

Probably or a definitely.

Sir Martin Sorrell23:31

Well, that's probably an English understatement, but we definitely so you're right, no, I think definitely. And so you have to balance all three, and it's it's very difficult, actually, the business.

Presenter23:39

But what I'm trying to get at is why is it more

Presenter23:43

Appealing, why is it more of a draw to say that you

Sir Martin Sorrell23:45

There's not more of appealing. I mean, it's it's just that you that you lose sight, I think, often of that balance. So here I am with WPP. We're doing in the in the initial years, we did eighteen acquisitions in the first eighteen months of our existence.

Sir Martin Sorrell24:02

We started to do stuff in the US. I used to travel to the US.

Sir Martin Sorrell24:06

every week. I would always make sure I was back every week. Yeah, yeah, every week. But you know, we had an awful lot to do. But I actually, interestingly, I would always make uh my my kids were at uh boarding school, I always make uh make sure I was back on the weekend, participating in in their every event. But

Presenter24:12

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell24:23

And actually when my father was alive, actually, he he managed to fill part of that vacuum. I mean, it was an important part of their lives too. So balancing it is extremely difficult.

Presenter24:35

Um, you spent time working for the sports agent uh Mark McCormack in the US, and then you went on to Saatchi and Saatchi. You became known there as as the third Saatchi brother. What d what did you make of that description?

Sir Martin Sorrell24:47

Uh, probably a little bit unfair'cause there were many Sai I mean, Tim Bell would have been a Saatchi brother, I guess, and Jeremy Sinclair would have probably been a Saatchi brother, and Bill Neohead. So there are lots of people who would be con contenders for the the Saatchi brothers.

Presenter25:00

Is it true that the dictum at Saatchi at the time was It's not enough to succeed, others must fail that famous Gorvadana quote?

Sir Martin Sorrell25:05

That was a dictum, but the other one I think the one that was more important was Nothing's Impossible. That was actually m more more about it. But yes, it's not enough to succeed, others must fail, certainly.

Presenter25:15

Oh, to be a little bit more.

Sir Martin Sorrell25:15

It gives you a flavour of the atmosphere around the office. No, no, no, I think the first one actually, Nothing is Impossible, was the I mean, it was amazing, actually. We had total freedom.

Sir Martin Sorrell25:24

To do what we wanted, as long as we didn't get any public credit for it. That was, I think, the interesting thing. It was as long as.

Sir Martin Sorrell25:30

The personal profile of the individuals inside the business were not uh were not outside the institution. The institution being Saatchi and Sacia, namely Charles and Morris, it was fine.

Presenter25:39

Somebody who worked very closely with you told me, I'm quoting directly here.

Presenter25:46

In a room full of very clever people Martin was always the cleverest.

Sir Martin Sorrell25:51

Ooh, I don't think that's true. Well, he certainly thought it was true, yes. Okay, well, we don't know who that is.

Presenter25:52

Well, he certainly thought it was true, yes.

Presenter25:55

It was Charles Saatchi, actually.

Sir Martin Sorrell25:59

Well, Charles is always, you know, he's a he's damning with faint praise.

Presenter26:02

Let's have some music, Martin Sorrell. What are we gonna hear?

Sir Martin Sorrell26:04

Um we're gonna hear a song from uh Pacini's Turinda. It's Italian and it reminds me of it will remind me of when I was sitting on my on the beach of my of my wife.

Sir Martin Sorrell26:16

Christiana, who's from Rome, so it's important in that context. It's also important that Turindo is about China. And China, just like Brazil, plays a very important part in my life. So it's about Italy, it's about Rome, it's about my wife, and it's about, last but not least, China.

Presenter27:36

The chordes and orchestra of the Italian Broadcasting Authority, conducted by Franco Ghioni, singing Ai toi piedi, We Prostrate Ourselves at Your Feet, from Puccini's Turundotte, recorded in nineteen thirty eight. So WPP then, Martin Sorrel, crashed and it nearly burned. That was in nineteen ninety one, ninety two.

Sir Martin Sorrell27:53

Yeah.

Presenter27:55

Given how intensely personal your relationship was with this company, how did it affect you at a personal level, not at a business level?

Sir Martin Sorrell28:03

From a personal point of view, I felt I got us into this mess.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:08

I had to get us out of it.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:10

You know, some people said to me, Did you ever think of quitting or or whatever? And I said, No. I mean, I was determined to you know, it was my baby.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:18

I got us into this situation. I had to get us out of it.

Presenter28:21

You don't strike me sitting here today as a person who is riddled with self-doubt, but I'm wondering as I

Presenter28:26

As you sat there in the

Sir Martin Sorrell28:27

There's a lot of seven balls.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:30

Well, of course there is. I mean, you know, you always uh wonder whether you can do this, that or the other. Of course there is. Do you wonder that? Yes, if you know, frequently you wonder about it, but then you put it to the back of your mind and you get on with doing it.

Presenter28:43

During those dark times, ninety one, ninety two, you must have your father died in 89, as we know. You must have missed his his his year.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:48

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:49

Oh, yeah, there's no doubt. That's absolutely right. I think I missed him. And, you know, his advice would have been: look.

Sir Martin Sorrell28:56

You're there because of decisions you made and choices you made.

Sir Martin Sorrell29:01

It hasn't turned out right, you know, fix it. And that would have been his advice.

Presenter29:05

Is it true that your father used to do a little bit of, well, shall we call it private detective work on your behalf? He did. Tell me about that.

Sir Martin Sorrell29:10

Do the task.

Sir Martin Sorrell29:12

It is true. He well, I know we call it a detective way. He would talk to one or two journalists. He used to wear this terrible story hooves. He used to put a handkerchief in his mouth to disguise his voice.

Sir Martin Sorrell29:24

But he used to disguise away and he used to find out things

Presenter29:27

What do you mean he would find out things?

Sir Martin Sorrell29:28

He would find out things just people's reactions, what people were thinking. So he would pretend to be a problem. This is a very crude form of surveillance.

Presenter29:32

So he would pretend it's something that's not the same.

Presenter29:37

You're a father of three sons and I'm wondering as I listen to all of this how how your relationship is with them, given that I mean you you h you have a an uncommonly strong bond with with your father.

Sir Martin Sorrell29:38

Yes, I know.

Sir Martin Sorrell29:47

Yes, I mean, I think it's very difficult to conceive of um people having a relationship like I had with him. And you know, I I try and make sure that my relationship with them is as good. But it's much more difficult, you know, because I've gone through uh a divorce.

Presenter30:03

You've been married for thirty odd years, a long time.

Sir Martin Sorrell30:04

Yes, yes, and people say it's different. I I still think it's a very, very difficult situation and I think it still does mark people psychologically.

Sir Martin Sorrell30:11

Let's have some music.

Sir Martin Sorrell30:13

Okay, uh the seventh one is uh Sting, an Englishman in New York, for for obvious reasons. I've been travelling to New York on and off for very many years. So Englishmen in New York will always have a special special place in my heart.

Speaker 330:29

Drink coffee, I take tea, my dear.

Speaker 330:34

I like my toast done on one side.

Speaker 330:37

You can hear it in my accent when I talk. I'm an Englishman in New York.

Speaker 330:48

You see me walking down Fifth Avenue

Speaker 330:53

Walking cane here at my side

Presenter30:58

That was Sting and Englishman in New York. I'm wondering how you're doing, Martin Sorrell, with the Venn diagram now, the one you learned about at Harvard. It had, what was it? It was business, it was family, it was society.

Sir Martin Sorrell31:06

Business

Presenter31:08

Uh

Sir Martin Sorrell31:08

Yeah, it's a bit better, I think, actually. My wife makes me focus on all three. Right.

Presenter31:08

Yeah.

Presenter31:12

Right. So you're ma you're married now for the second time. That's right. Do you think you're a better husband this time?

Sir Martin Sorrell31:14

And that's right.

Sir Martin Sorrell31:16

And you'd have to ask her that. Probably yeah, but I've learnt some lessons, but not not all the lessons, I'm sure.

Presenter31:22

Um you said you you buried your mother on her ninetieth birthday, so she lived to a ripe old age and and saw the huge uh success you've had in business. What does she make of it all?

Sir Martin Sorrell31:25

Right.

Sir Martin Sorrell31:33

Well, she was she was an impossible Jewish mother, you know. She would ceaselessly remind people about me and, you know, the one Atmanship that Jewish mothers and Jewish grandmothers have, you know, this continual attempt to outdo other grandmothers. She was impossible that way.

Presenter31:50

So it wasn't my son the doctor, but it was my son the CE

Sir Martin Sorrell31:52

Yeah, yes, you know, my my son in the Jewish Chronicle. Sometimes it was a a little bit overpowered.

Presenter31:52

Yeah, yeah, see.

Sir Martin Sorrell31:58

A little bit too much to take. But you know, she was basically very proud, and that was very nice. I always remember after the JWT.

Speaker 432:04

Uh

Sir Martin Sorrell32:06

take over. We signed the deal early on a Friday morning, very early, about two o'clock in the morning. I flew back from New York on the Friday night, landed Saturday morning. And it was the front page story

Sir Martin Sorrell32:20

on the Times newspaper, and my parents couldn't believe that that the story was on the front page of the The Times. And so you know, they had an immense pride.

Presenter32:28

No, they have no

Sir Martin Sorrell32:29

Which was nice.

Presenter32:30

I was going to ask you about when you were going to give up, but I know from talking to you for this amount of time now you you're just not going to give up.

Sir Martin Sorrell32:36

You know, I d I do love what I do and, you know, I hope that comes across. It's partly because of the history, but it's also because it really is very interesting.

Presenter32:43

You've alluded a couple of times to this midlife crisis thing. You started late, as you say. There there you were at forty, starting your own company. That is untypically late. Yes, it is untypically late. Do you have a sense then that there's a lot of extra time to make up for? No.

Sir Martin Sorrell32:46

Late, as you say, that the

Sir Martin Sorrell32:49

Darting room

Sir Martin Sorrell32:56

Maybe if some people would say I was over educated. Some people wouldn't hire a Harvard Business School graduate almost out of principal. I was a member of what Dean Athos, who was the admissions tutor at the time, described as the most naive class ever at the Harvard Business School. I was the, what, the second youngest out of uh seven hundred people.

Sir Martin Sorrell33:15

But no, I I don't no, there's nothing of that. It's just, look, average life life expectancy is of a baby born today, I think it's going to be a hundred years. Life has changed, and so we have to adjust the way we think about these things.

Presenter33:28

So, Martin Sorlas, you know, I'm going to cast you away to this desert island. There will be

Presenter33:32

No statements on your return on capital there'll be no E bit dar to pour over.

Presenter33:37

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell33:38

Aren't I allowed any pieces of information?

Presenter33:39

No PC. No, you're not.

Sir Martin Sorrell33:42

Nope, you're not.

Presenter33:42

Uh

Presenter33:43

You'll fare very badly, I can I can very imagine.

Sir Martin Sorrell33:46

Will you? You'll be

Presenter33:46

Uh

Sir Martin Sorrell33:46

Uh

Presenter33:46

B

Presenter33:47

Yeah.

Sir Martin Sorrell33:48

I like desert islands or way off places, but only for short periods of time. I like them for about ten days or fourteen days and then my patience goes, I think.

Presenter33:48

Black.

Presenter33:56

And would you be I mean literally would you be a survivor, would you be able to lash on hope?

Sir Martin Sorrell34:00

I'm hopeless, you know. I can't even change a light bulb. I mean, I'm hopeless. Absolutely hopeless at that.

Presenter34:01

Too bad.

Presenter34:07

It's time for your final disc of the day, then. Tell us what it is.

Sir Martin Sorrell34:10

Well, I I love films and uh it's a dangerous thing to say, but the most beautiful film I think I've ever seen is a Stanley Krubrick film called Barry Linda.

Sir Martin Sorrell34:19

Say to remind me of that.

Sir Martin Sorrell34:21

There's Sarabandi by Handel, which is the theme from Barry Lyndon.

Presenter35:17

The National Philharmonic Orchestra, playing The Sarah Band by Handel, the title music for Kubrick's film Barry Lyndon. So I'm going to give you the books now. Traditionally we give the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. Right. And you take one other book. What would you like to take?

Sir Martin Sorrell35:32

My dad would use would love the complete works of Shakespeare. Well, I think the Talmud, because uh my dad used to quote tracts from the Talmud, so he must have studied under his father the Talmud when he was young. So I would have some time on the island for that. Well, given that it's a relationship.

Presenter35:47

You could have To replace The

Sir Martin Sorrell35:49

But What was that? Would you

Presenter35:50

Well I would have

Sir Martin Sorrell35:50

Well, I would have the Old Testament and I'd have the Talmud because Talmud, you know, explains o all the biblical references. So the two things would go very neatly with one another.

Presenter35:58

Right, okay. It's yours and a luxury too, Martin.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:01

Oh dear, it's very boring. An iPad. Whether it would work or not, we'd have to download all the power. You're not losing it.

Presenter36:05

You're not allowed it. I I will simply take the decision out of your hands because you're not allowed it.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:10

No, oh my gosh.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:13

What luxury would I take with me? Nothing electronic

Presenter36:15

The f

Presenter36:16

No. It'll be something that would make life a little more comfortable, a little more bearable, on the island.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:22

Oh, okay, all right, well I would take a cricket baton ball.

Presenter36:27

It's yours.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:28

And even a set of stumps, even though you can't do that. A set of stumps, a cricket bat, and a ball. That's yours. You can play beach cricket bat.

Presenter36:31

That's yours.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:33

Yeah.

Presenter36:33

You can. And if you had to choose just one of the eight to save, which one disk would you like to save?

Presenter36:42

I think my funny Valentine actually.

Presenter36:44

It's yours. Sir Martin Sorrell, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Sir Martin Sorrell36:48

Thank you very much, really enjoyable. Thanks for the opportunity.

Presenter37:38

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc.co.uk slash Radio Four.