Francesca Simon

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

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For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

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My castaway this week is the writer Francesca Simon. Horrid Henry, her grubby little tyke of a creation, has helped her sell seventeen million books.

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Horrid Henry's underpants and Horrid Henry robs the bank give something of a clue to his appeal.

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He's naughty.

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Very naughty and rude.

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And revolting. In other words, every parent's nightmare and every child's fantasy of how they'd like to behave.

Presenter1:00

Given half the chance. Unlike her creation, it would seem that growing up Francesca was a very good girl indeed.

Presenter1:06

Despite attending ten schools by the time she was twelve, she got into Yale and Oxford, and, unlike most women, it was becoming a mother that unlocked massive career success. She says, My son allowed me to discover where my talents lay as a writer. For most women, uh, Francesca, it's the absolute opposite. The child means that their work tends to go on the back burner. Take second place, tell us, what is your secret?

Presenter1:32

I don't know that it's a secret. It was just a very unexpected thing that happened to me, and that I was always interested in writing, but I was a journalist.

Presenter1:41

Having Josh and looking after him meant that we spent a lot of time reading. I just discovered that I had.

Presenter1:48

Uh a talent for writing children's books. To people who are not familiar, and as I say, seventeen million books have been sold, so quite a lot of people are familiar, but for people who are not, if I was to describe Horrid Henry as a sort of Dennis the Menace for today, would is that about right, or does that make you?

Presenter2:02

Sort of shiver about that comparison. It doesn't make me shiver. I mean, he is a kind of archetypal anarchic.

Presenter2:10

Character and children's literature are kind of filled with these sort of wild imaginative kids. What he does is he doesn't think about consequences. So he's very spontaneous. So I think what's important for Horat Henry is that he doesn't plot, because that can seem a little psychopathic. So what he does is he's just impulsive. And I think that's what people respond to is the fact that he goes against what parents try to socialize their children to be and to do. I was just very interested in the kind of comic possibilities of being trapped in a family where you didn't belong. Indeed, and let's talk for a moment about parents then. It's clear when you read the books.

Francesca Simon2:38

Yes.

Presenter2:49

Why they would appeal to kids, but do parents say too well?

Presenter2:52

I just don't like that my child is reading them, or when I read them to my child, I worry that it's a bad example.

Presenter2:57

You know, I almost never get that. I think parents are really thrilled to find books that their children actually want to read. They do speak to something I think actually inside adults as well, because one of the things that really surprised me was that adults parents don't like Henry's brother, Perfect Peter.

Presenter3:13

So that's what they're sort of socializing their children to be. But in fact, when they're confronted with it, they actually don't like it. That everyone responds to Henry, because I think everyone feels, however conventional they seem on the outside, that they are kind of rebellious and unconventional. And Henry really taps into that for parents. Do you think Henry is really all of us if we didn't control our impulses? In a way, yes, I do. I think he's what you think. For example, if he gets a present he doesn't like, he says, why have you given me this horrible present? Just give me money.

Presenter3:41

Whereas people might think that as they go, oh, thank you for the beautiful frog vase, just what I wanted.

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You've just published your 20th Horrid Henry book. Did you think when you started this is going to be a long runner? Did you see it as a, well, they call it in the movies a franchise, but did you see it as a series that would go on and on? Not in the slightest. I saw it as one story. It was just one little story that I wrote, and I was very lucky to have a really brilliant editor named Judith Elliott who said, well, this doesn't work as it is, but if you could write a few more, we can make a book out of it. Francesca, let's go to the music then. Tell me about your first track today. What are we going to hear?

Presenter4:21

We're going to hear The Beach Boys and Surf in USA. And why have you chosen this? I grew up on the beach in Malibu. Then when I was fourteen, we moved to Pacific Palisades. So The Beach Boys were almost a local band. Of course, I was probably too serious to be interested in them, but I was certainly aware of them. But they also mentioned my hometown of Pacific Palisades, which still today I always feel quite thrilled about. But just to me, it represents all my summers on the beach. And I used to walk barefoot all the time. And I just remember that feeling of trying to put my shoes on to go to school, where I hadn't worn shoes for three months, and the feeling of my shoes pinching.

Presenter4:57

pinching my feet like Tom Sawyer.

Speaker 45:02

If everybody had an ocean across the USA

Speaker 45:08

Then everybody be served like California

Speaker 45:14

You see them wearing their bag

Speaker 45:17

We're at G. Santos too

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A bushy bushy blonde here, surfing USA. You'll catch him surfing at them.

Presenter5:30

That was the Beach Boys in Surfing USA, that quintessential California sound Francesca. Do you feel I mean, you traveled uh around a lot, we'll talk about that in a moment, but do you feel as though you are from California? Does that feel like home?

Presenter5:42

Uh London feels like home, but California is a very big part of me. And you came to England, was it round about thirty-five years ago?

Presenter5:51

Uh, no. I c actually came to England when I was six and seven. Ah, right. I was a child, just for nine months. Okay. When I was saying you came here thirty five years ago, I was talking about actually settled you settled here. Oh, yes, I settled here, yes. And why did you make that decision?

Francesca Simon5:55

Yeah.

Francesca Simon6:00

Oh yes, I said

Francesca Simon6:02

And why did you

Presenter6:05

Kind of accidentally. I I came here to do a second BA at Oxford. I had no thoughts about staying at all. I was just I was going to come here for a few more years and then possibly go back to the States and do a PhD. But I ended up kind of staying here, but I it was always very temporary. And I remember I wouldn't buy anything because I thought, well, I'm going to move back.

Presenter6:25

And one day I remember buying a lamp and a throw cushion, and that's how I realized I was thinking about staying.

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But it I've always felt really comfortable in Europe. I love being part of Europe. And what about is there anything of being it's it's a comfortable place for a writer to be, slightly on the periphery and slightly outside. Is is that a a good place for you to be? You feel that you like it here, but you're not of here.

Francesca Simon6:41

On the p

Presenter6:48

I've always found that a really interesting place to be, I agree.

Presenter6:52

In some ways, Oxford, that's why g ha having been to Oxford was useful in a way I didn't expect it to be, because I didn't really enjoy Oxford academically. Why not?

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When I was there in the late seventies, it seemed very anti-intellectual to me. I was used to somewhere where people worked really hard, where people talked about what they were doing. And at Oxford, there was this thing about everyone was bragging about how little they studied. And I just had no time for that. Do you think there's a possibility that they were, of course, in that very faux English way?

Presenter7:24

I think they probably were, but I didn't know. I mean, I was sort of bewildered by that. I was bewildered by British people. I could never tell if people were really my friends. Just the rituals are so different. And I remember that once someone said, well, it would be nice to see you again, or something, or let's get together again, or something. And I said, oh, yes, when? And I pulled out my diary. And of course, they were doing that British brush-off thing, which I didn't see. I will never see you again. I'll never see you again, but I'm just going to say, like, lovely to meet you, meaning, God, you've been so boring. I wish I'd never met you. I didn't know. Have you learned that now? Have you managed to sort of lie with confidence? It's not lying with confidence, but I think having been to university here.

Francesca Simon7:59

So sort of live.

Presenter8:04

I mean, the other aspect I didn't really enjoy about Oxford is I felt it was kind of a finishing school for upper-middle class kids. And that you know, I thought, well, that's boring. I have no interest in that. But of course, having stayed here, understanding those kind of mores has been interesting to me. How do you think those people found you? You know, while they were all sort of underplaying everything and saying they weren't working and saying we must meet up and not meaning it, did they find I mean, some people would call it an appealing directness that Americans have, other people would call it a brashness. Do you think they found you brash? Probably bumptious.

Presenter8:36

Um, I am quite direct. I'm very, very open to people and I'm very open to meeting people and to making new friends. I never say things that I don't mean in in the sense I would never

Presenter8:47

Do the old, you know, let's get together, meaning I'm going to throw your phone number away as soon as I get out the door. I never do that. Let's have some more music then, Francesca Simon. What are we going to hear as disc number two? We're going to hear one of my very favorite pieces of music, which is Jacques Brel and Amsterdam. Jacques Brel for me is all about being in France, being on a balcony overlooking the sea. I have a close friend who's a writer named Stephen Butler and who I kind of encouraged to write, and he also was very helpful to me in kind of encouraging me to take a risk.

Presenter9:20

On my new book, The Sleeping Army. We both love this song. Amsterdam's a great song. It reminds me of my friend. It reminds me of writing a new book, being in France, the sea, kind of everything.

Francesca Simon9:32

Poor Mstam.

Presenter10:05

That was Jacques Prel and Amsterdam. You were saying earlier, Francesca Simon, that you spent time as a little girl in London. You also spent time in Paris, didn't you? Did you go to school there? Yep, I went to a French primary school where I had to learn to write with a pen dipped in an inkwell, which was very stressful. Were you learning in French? You weren't going to an American school. Oh no, my parents threw me.

Francesca Simon10:26

Oh now

Presenter10:28

straight into a French school. I didn't speak a word of French. All of this traveling that you did, your your father was a screenwriter, a successful screenwriter, so all the traveling was done to facilitate his working life, was it?

Francesca Simon10:36

Yeah.

Francesca Simon10:39

Positive.

Presenter10:40

So that's why all the back and forth between California and New York and London and Paris and then back to Los Angeles. It always felt very temporary. We were always renting and always about to move somewhere else. Yeah, so you were the eldest of four children? I was the eldest of four, though my youngest brother's fourteen years younger than me, so he wasn't he had a very different childhood'cause he just was born in the same house and lived there his whole life.

Francesca Simon10:53

I was yeah.

Presenter11:02

So but the first three, you and your other siblings were born close together. Very close together, were were all a year apart. I found all the moving schools quite stressful. I think it gave me a sort of ferocity,'cause I was always a little bit different, but I had very French manners and I dressed like a little French girl.

Francesca Simon11:05

And there

Presenter11:20

And certainly I caused a bit of a stir in my primary school in Malibu, my elementary school. Apparently, I walked around shaking hands with everybody. You weren't saying enchante at the same time. No, I I wrote in a mixture of French and English, but I could distinguish between the two languages. This is interesting because when I was finding out about you in preparation for talking to you today, I thought, well, maybe you're a bit of a pleaser. You know, if you've been in sort of ten schools by the time you're twelve, but actually the fact that you are, you seem, as you were saying, you know, very.

Francesca Simon11:28

No, I

Speaker 411:41

Time year twelve.

Francesca Simon11:42

Uh

Presenter11:45

direct and very rooted in yourself. You were determined to be an individual, were you at the same time? Yes, that's a really interesting question because I was kind of vehemently anti-fashion. I would never wear anything that was fashionable. I was very keen

Presenter12:01

I guess not to conform. I didn't fit in also because I spoke another language. I'd been to Europe. So I felt slightly different. Also, I was very bookish. Top of the class? Yeah. Always? Yes, except in mathematics, where I was absolutely terrible. Okay, and so what were you reading around about that time when you were growing up and when you moved back to the States? Well, I read about six hours every day. I mean, I just read voraciously.

Presenter12:25

Where did you read? I mean, did you have a sort of rambling house and you could go off to the West Wing? No, terrible. We had always lived in these beautiful locations, in these very tiny houses. And so my father was writing in my parents' bedroom. I was sharing a very small room with my sister.

Francesca Simon12:25

Bit like

Francesca Simon12:27

And go off to the west wing.

Presenter12:40

My brother was in like a little cubby hole next door.

Presenter12:44

I I think it was just to kind of shut everything out. I just read in my bedroom. And you knew, of course, that your father was uh a writer. He was making a a good success of being a writer, wasn't he? Yes, except that he used to take off a year at a time to write plays, so then he would have no income. Money was always a real issue, because I also lived in quite wealthy neighborhoods, but we were very much like the poor cousins.

Presenter13:05

And I found that really hard, because as a child you don't necessarily understand. It was kind of confusing, because we were living around very wealthy people. I grew up in the Malibu colony, which was also the movie star colony. Very Lardi Da. Yes. I lived across the street from Lana Turner, who that, of course, meant nothing to me. I had no idea who she was. What was she l I mean, what was she like? I just thought she was like this nice.

Francesca Simon13:15

Yeah.

Francesca Simon13:16

Uh

Presenter13:24

kind of older lady. She was probably mid forties. But she used to do these wonderful things for Halloween. You'd ring her doorbell and she would sweep down the stairs in this long dress. And there we she had this huge bowl. I mean, it was like four feet

Presenter13:40

Round and filled with candy and sweets, and she would just say, Help yourself.

Presenter13:47

Let's have some more music then, Francesca. We're on our third disc of the day. What is it? Ah, now this is Abbess Hildegard of Bingen, and it's called A Feather on the Breath of God. And I did medieval studies at Yale, and I really love medieval music, Gothic music. And I particularly like this one because I unfortunately had a very long labor with my son, 40 hours at home. And we had Abbess Hildegard on for most of it.

Speaker 414:17

Olumasit per canse fedeste Umiante fatierus Sudamus Udavit Vasuridoxi migo.

Presenter14:44

Lord, he said our sin.

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Emma Kirkby and Gothic Voices, singing Columba as Bexet by Abbess Hildegard of Bingen, directed by Christopher Page. Memories there, painful memories, I imagine, of a forty-hour labour you had, Francesca. Is that right? It is right. Actually, it was very calm, and this music was very sort of soothing. It was actually wonderful music to have on. And Josh has- Josh has not been to ten schools before the age of twelve. No, Josh has been to one primary school, one secondary school, and one university. And there's a pretty well, he's been in two houses, but he doesn't remember the first one. Is it true that you dreamt of being an only child when you were being brought up? Yes. What was that about? Just wanting peace and quiet? Yes, I think, and just wanting more space, just wanting.

Francesca Simon15:28

Uh

Presenter15:33

To have more time to myself, just to not be annoyed by siblings. I think that a lot of the frustration that Horrid Henry feels is is just literally there's someone else with a pulse around. What was your mother? I mean, she had three children very close together and then a fourth later on. Did you manage to get enough of her time? Did you feel like she was around for you, or was she always busy with the little ones?

Francesca Simon15:50

There's enough.

Francesca Simon15:51

Yeah.

Presenter15:58

Well, my mother, even though she didn't have a job, was very politically active and she was fundraising for the American Civil Liberties Union and the Democratic Party and things like that. And she was always kind of busy looking after my father. And we were all kind of look after yourselves. It was much more hands-off parenting, I think. And your mother's still alive and i in America. What sort of person was she then? I mean, you say very politically.

Francesca Simon16:19

Oh, both my parents are.

Presenter16:25

Focused? Was it a bustling household? Was she a great cook? Was there lots of laughter? My mother is a great cook.

Speaker 416:29

Um

Presenter16:31

But it was not a bustling household because my father was always working at home. So there was a lot of shh, your father's working, shh, your father's working. So it it very much colored how I am as a writer, not wanting to be part of that. This idea that somehow you create this shrine at home so that.

Presenter16:51

The writer at home can be quiet and get on with their incredibly important labors, which is, I think, something that men.

Presenter16:58

Do.

Presenter17:00

I write at home. I have an office at the top of the house, but I don't ask for special favors. I actually think I'm a much better writer because I'm engaged.

Presenter17:10

In the world and with my family and with my friends and with my child. It's interesting in both instances, both in giving Josh sort of, you know, one home and one primary school and one secondary school, and also in the way you write, that you've reacted against what your parents gave you, because it seems really to have worked for you. I mean, you seem like.

Francesca Simon17:17

One primary screen.

Francesca Simon17:22

Hmm.

Presenter17:26

Well, clearly you're very successful and you seem very happy. So whatever they did.

Presenter17:31

It turned out pretty well. Yes, I mean, I think what they gave me, which I think is really important, is.

Presenter17:36

We did always have Friday night dinner together, and we talked a lot. We talked a lot about books and politics, and my parents are both very lively people and very sociable. We always had, certainly on Friday evenings, lots of friends round. And you were Jewish. Was it an observant household? Was it Shabbat dinner at the end of the day? It was Shabbat dinner. My parents have actually both got more religious as they've got older. It was not particularly observant. We were quite culturally Jewish. I mean, I really like being Jewish, and I enjoy lots of things about Judaism. I'm just not a particularly religious person.

Presenter18:10

Let's have some more music then, Francesca. What's next? Joan Baez and the trees they grow high. Because of my mother, we went on a lot of political demonstrations, on rallies. My parents were very active against the war in Vietnam. And so I used to see Joan Baez speak at these rallies. And when I was a teenager, we used to, you know.

Presenter18:30

Friends would come and pick me up at two in the morning and we'd go down to the beach and

Presenter18:34

bring guitars and sing, and so Jem Baez was also a part of that. So she she encapsulates a lot for me.

Presenter18:41

The trees they grow high, and the leaves they do grow green Many's the time my true love I've seen Many an hour I've watched him all alone.

Presenter18:57

He's young, but he's daily growing

Presenter19:05

That was Joan Baez, and the trees they do grow high. You were a little young, Francesca Simon, for the Summer of Love. That happened, what, at sixty seven? You would have been just twelve. But do you have memories of it? Oh, very much so. Everyone was walking around in tie dyed clothes and beads.

Presenter19:22

It was a really big part of my life. It did really feel like the world would never be the same. How old were you when your mother was taking you along to the demonstrations and the political media? Oh, a teenager from the age of like 10, 11. Okay, quite a potent time for you then to see. Very potent time, because also it was also the time of the women's movement. And you say your mother was very active in the civil rights movement. How was she with feminism? Does she sort of flying the flag for that as well? Not at all. And that was very difficult for me because here was my mother who, you know, in the 50s had.

Speaker 419:30

Oh

Francesca Simon19:30

What he

Francesca Simon19:43

Mm, but I

Presenter19:52

Actively been involved in desegregating St. Louis lunch counters. Really? She'd been actively involved in that? Absolutely. She and a group of friends, she told me about it. They would go to various lunch counters. Every lunch, the white members of the group would come and they'd take seats and then they'd give them over to black friends. So they were desegregating them lunch counter by lunch counter. Oh, no, very much so. But not the same when it came to feminism? No, not at all. In fact, my mother told me that I could either have a career or get married.

Francesca Simon20:15

But not

Francesca Simon20:16

Top

Presenter20:22

I remember exactly where I was when she told me this. I was about eight or nine. I said, Well, then I'll never get married.

Presenter20:28

I did think that was a really harsh thing to say because I was happy to be different, but you don't want to be that different. And I just thought, gosh, I'm I'm actually a freak. That sounds like I mean, obviously she was a product of her time, but it does sound like somebody given that she had this consciousness raised through civil rights and so on, it maybe also sounds like somebody who was was she slightly burned by her own experience? Do you think at some point she wanted to have a career but realized that she just had to buckle down, have the kids and be your father's wife?

Francesca Simon20:34

Yeah.

Francesca Simon20:40

But it's not it's not a

Presenter20:56

My father was very much I'm at home, I'm earning all the money, I need someone to be there to look after me, so she very much felt it was her job to support him.

Presenter21:07

you know, my father said to me, they never even really discussed about having children. Just you got married, you had kids. So suddenly he was probably living a more bourgeois life than he wanted to. And my mother, who's actually in many ways very unconventional, was living a a really

Presenter21:23

You know, the Housewife in Malibu life, just without the money. Um, and the facelifts. Which is quite a hard life with the money. Which is hard, yeah. Let's have some more music then. We're on uh your fifth track for the day.

Francesca Simon21:30

Which is hard, yeah.

Presenter21:35

Ah, now this is the Judds, why not me? And this is really for Josh and my husband Martin because.

Presenter21:43

Martin and I shared Looking After Josh, and we would play Why Not Me non-stop with Josh because he absolutely loved it when he was a baby and we would kind of bounce him round the room and he would always join in on the chorus. He was about nine or ten months old. But this is absolutely the song that for me kind of symbolizes that first year of pretty intensive taking care of a baby.

Presenter22:06

Even look

Speaker 422:07

Yeah.

Presenter22:07

Uh

Speaker 422:08

Love all around the world, baby don't you know this country girl still free

Speaker 422:17

Why not me?

Presenter22:19

Uh

Speaker 422:22

Well you finally come down to your old hometown, Your Kentucky Girls been awaiting me

Presenter22:29

Patiently.

Presenter22:33

That was the Judds and Why Not Me and and you had memories there, Francesca Simon, of bouncing Josh on your hip as you went round the house. You both you and your husband, because you you changed your working life to share the childcare equally. Yes. You know, we weren't kind of timing we weren't doing that, but pretty much it was pretty equal.

Francesca Simon22:44

She has a

Francesca Simon22:48

Okay.

Presenter22:52

And you were making your living as a features writer on publications like the Sunday Times and American Vogue. So was work absorbing? Was it enough for you? Did you dream of being a proper writer of books, or were you enjoying your working life? I was very much enjoying it. I love being a journalist because I found it fascinating. What a friend of mine says, is you're getting your education in public.

Speaker 322:55

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 322:56

Yeah.

Presenter23:14

I enjoyed meeting people and talking to people and finding out things, so I liked it.

Presenter23:18

One of the ma reasons I stopped was after Josh was born, the deadlines of journalism became very stressful. And I really wanted to enjoy having a baby. I mean, it's such a big part of my life being a mother. And in the introduction, I said, you know, unlike most women that most of us know, it was when you had the baby that your career came into sharp focus, or your working life did, because you thought.

Francesca Simon23:32

Mm.

Presenter23:39

I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to be a writer of children's books now, of course. There'll be lots of people listening, lots of us, who've read children's books to our kids and thought, you know what, I actually think I could probably do that. Well, I was terrified that I was one of those people. So I didn't, I knew then that's what I wanted to do, just because I got so many ideas. So you wrote your first children's book when? Well, he was about a couple of weeks old.

Francesca Simon24:03

Well

Presenter24:06

I wrote a rather scary story that got a terrible rejection. I mean, a long rejection letter. They didn't just say thanks, but no thanks. It was basically, this is a terrible story, and I don't know what you were thinking. I mean, it really went on for paragraphs. Right. What was it about? It was about these wriggling fingers coming down and scaring a baby. What were you thinking? I don't know. I mean, Josh thought it was funny, but I guess it was. I guess if I'd known more, I would have done a board book with a little hole in it, and then the little fingers would come through, or finger puppets, or something. Who knows what I was thinking? But I did start getting lots of ideas, and I did start.

Presenter24:43

Writing pretty much when he was born. And when was the first Horrid Henry book written? That was written, I think, in 1993. So Josh would have been how old? He was about three and a half.

Francesca Simon24:52

He was about

Presenter24:53

Right, so did you try it out on him? No, he was too little. Yeah. Did you try it out on Martin?

Presenter24:58

Yes, Martin was always very supportive of my work. He was always convinced that my work was good.

Presenter25:05

And that I would be published and that it would do well. Much more convinced than I was. Let's have some more music then, Francesca. Slap that bass from Crazy For You. And why have you chosen this?

Francesca Simon25:16

What

Presenter25:17

I started taking Josh to the theater when he was three years old.

Presenter25:21

He was mesmerized.

Presenter25:24

It was like he'd entered fairyland. And crazy for you, I took him to see when he was four years old.

Presenter25:30

His first experience of musical theatre.

Presenter25:33

But he totally fell in love with Crazy For You, so we saw it three times and basically listened to this for about three or four years non-stop.

Speaker 325:43

Zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, the world is in a mess.

Speaker 325:47

With politics and taxes and people grinding axes, there's no happiness. Zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom, rhythm lead your race.

Speaker 325:57

The future doesn't fret me if I can only get me someone to slap that face Happiness is not a riddle when I'm listening

Speaker 426:05

Yeah.

Speaker 426:05

To that big face fit.

Presenter26:09

That was Slap That Bass from the London cast recording of Crazy For You by George and Ira Gershwin. You told me during that Francesca Simon that your son actually plays bass. He does. Yeah. After going to see it three times at least three. Your husband Martin designs I have to say is award-winning software for private investment. He does. And I have been told that he was one of Channel Four's secret millionaires. He was. Which is the pro in case people don't know it, you you go onto the programme and you

Speaker 426:17

But

Francesca Simon26:17

He does.

Francesca Simon26:20

Probably three.

Presenter26:37

There's a a spurious reason made up for why you appear in a community that's that's going through hard times, and at the end the person who is the secret millionaire, in this case your husband, gives money away. Yeah. I mean, how did he find that?

Francesca Simon26:47

Gives money away.

Presenter26:50

I think for him it was a great thing, because he's still in touch with

Presenter26:55

The projects that he was supporting in Hull and made some really good friends. And I think he found it kind of exciting. I mean, I was quite nervous about him doing it. Yes. Well, I mean, first of all, how much money did he give away? Forty thousand pounds. That's quite a lot of money. Which is quite a lot of money. But Martin and I are both quite successful in what we do, but we're not really motivated by money.

Francesca Simon27:09

Which is the

Presenter27:16

Right. I mean, I think for him it was a really good thing. There have been, there was a stage version of Horror Henry. Yes. And there's also recently been a movie. What do you think of the movie? Well, I never saw it.

Francesca Simon27:22

Yeah.

Francesca Simon27:24

What do you think?

Presenter27:26

You didn't see it? Nope. I had nothing to do with the film. Okay. And so had you sold the rights of the name then? They just had. So what happened was that with children's books, you.

Francesca Simon27:33

Just have

Presenter27:37

Sell all rights, world rights. So I sold the rights to my publisher, you know, for the first book, 1993. So the rights were kind of gone well before the book was a success. But also at that time, it was a bit like selling the rights to the outer space transmission on Mars. Okay. There was nothing ever done with children's books. Yes. I mean, I don't like it. It's the one thing that I would redo professionally because I would not sell the rights.

Francesca Simon27:58

Yeah.

Francesca Simon28:03

Right.

Presenter28:05

For all future books, I keep I'm keeping all rights. But what I always you and I think what you always have to remember is that a book isn't burnt every time someone sees the film. You know, the books are there and the books are what matter to me, and the books are what's important.

Francesca Simon28:17

And the book

Presenter28:20

You know, anything that kind of leads children to read and to to the books, to me, is a good thing. One of the things that Horrid Henry spends a lot of time complaining about, and you you've mentioned this uh already, is is Perfect Peter, his brother. And Horred Henry wishes that he w was an only child. Josh is an only child. Was that deliberate? Did you think I'm going to give him

Francesca Simon28:28

So

Francesca Simon28:30

His brother

Francesca Simon28:32

Hmm.

Francesca Simon28:35

Child, was that

Presenter28:38

The love and attention that one child would want. No, I mean, we did actually want to have a second child, but I was never able to get pregnant. Right. Which, you know, I just had to accept. I was aware of the irony of that. Yeah.

Presenter28:50

I am quite a positive person and I just thought

Presenter28:54

there's plenty of people out there who've never been able to have a child. And I just I can't let this become my life of struggling to try to have a second child when I have a perfectly good and lovely child right here in front of me.

Presenter29:07

Let's have some more music then, Francesca. What's next? Ah, I've chosen Tobias and the Angel because it is conducted by my oldest friend, who is David Charles Bell, and we met in our late teens. It's very special for me to actually have something that he's recorded, that he's conducted. And I do love this piece very, very much. What's wrong with your ears? Why can't you hear? What's here? I've no idea. Why can't I hear? What?

Francesca Simon29:45

Please sir.

Presenter29:59

That was part of Tobias and the Angel, written by Jonathan Dove, and performed by Darren Abrahams and James Lang, with the young Vic chorus and ensemble conducted by your friend David Charles Abel. We should, of course, mention so many parents will be familiar with this, long car journeys, and the voice of Miranda Richardson, who narrates the Horrid Henry books so well. Did you have to addition lots of actresses? I mean, that's it. I love that Miranda does it, because Miranda and I are really old friends. We became friends in 1984. Oh, so from Welsh. Oh, way back, way, way back. She came to my wedding.

Francesca Simon30:28

Yeah.

Presenter30:32

And naturally, because she's sort of right there beside me, did I think of her? No. It was my editor, Judith, who said, What about Miranda? And I was a little nervous about asking her just in case she didn't want to do it, but she has been amazing. It's been so much fun recording with her, but I also now write with her voice in mind. You cannot fluster her. I've had her sing a song called The Happy Nappy.

Presenter30:58

And she actually helped me with the lyrics on that. What do your parents make of your success?

Presenter31:03

Um, I mean, I think they're very impressed and proud, but I don't know that they entirely recognize it. I think it's always hard for

Presenter31:11

Parents to get their children's success. On the one hand, it's like, my child, the genius, but on the other hand, you think,

Presenter31:18

Whoa, that was my child. I saw something that Josh directed at Cambridge, and I was just stunned because it was so good. And part of you is thinking, well, of course it's good as my son, but the other part is thinking,

Presenter31:31

Oh my gosh, my my little baby He did that!

Presenter31:35

And so I'm going to uh abandon you, as you know, on to this island. You'll be all alone. Uh no publishers' deadlines. You'll be all alone. How's that going to go?

Presenter31:46

Okay. I mean, I'll be on the beach, which I love being on.

Presenter31:50

Um I'll miss my family and my friends. In fact, my husband suggested I take him as my luxury. We'll come to that in a moment. But you know he's not alive. I do know that. I do know that. I have something better. Right. Okay, so do you tha are you a practical person? Yes. Oh, no, wait, sorry. No, I'm hopeless. I'm

Francesca Simon31:57

Moment.

Francesca Simon32:01

To

Presenter32:07

Hopeless, hopeless, hopeless. Any shelter I built would collapse immediately. I'd be the last person you would want on a desert island in terms of practicality. I'd be amusing. But I've often thought that, that for all the talent I have, any kind of castaway situation, I would be the first to die and the first to kill everybody.

Presenter32:28

But I would probably be all right. I mean, I would b I would be lonely, but I would have things to do, and I do think a lot, and I'm quite happy with my own company. I'm both very sociable and very solitary. I'm able to do both things.

Presenter32:43

Time for a final piece of music, then, Francesca Simon. What are we going to hear?

Presenter32:47

I love the work of Steven Sondheim and Finishing the Hat from Sunday in the Park with George is my favourite because to me it absolutely encapsulates that kind of dilemma between do you finish the hat or do you go out? Are you with people, are you with your work? I'm always very moved by this song because I always feel I wouldn't finish the hat.

Presenter33:08

And then I think, well, that must mean I would be a better writer if I finished the hat. So I'm always torn between the two. The Two Sides of This Song.

Speaker 333:18

Finishing the hat.

Speaker 333:21

How you have to finish the hat.

Speaker 333:24

How you watch the rest of the world from a window while you finish the hat.

Speaker 333:31

Mapping out a sky

Speaker 333:34

What do you feel like climbing the skull?

Presenter33:35

Yeah.

Speaker 333:37

What you feel when voices that come through the window

Speaker 433:42

To away distance and die

Speaker 433:45

Until there's nothing but sky.

Presenter33:48

Mandy Patinkin and finishing the hat from the original cast recording of Sondheim's Sunday in the Park with George. So, Francesca, I shall give you the books now. You you get to take the Bible and the complete works of Shakspere.

Presenter34:00

And of course a book of your own to the the island. What are you going to take?

Presenter34:04

I'm not going to take Horace Henry. My favourite writer is Anthony Trollope. And so I thought I'd take the Eustace Diamonds because I've read it a number of times and I always forget the plot in between reading it. And I think if you're going to only have one book, it has to be a book that you can't remember, so you will greet it anew with fresh eyes. Great, that's yours then. And a luxury as well? My luxury is a cappuccino maker, because I love coffee. Right. Okay, we'll easily give you that. And if you had to choose just one of these eight discs from today's list, which one would you choose to save from the waves? Finishing the hat. Right. Francesca Simon, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you so much for having me on.

Francesca Simon34:34

And they

Presenter35:35

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc. co dot uk slash radio four.