Lord Victor Adebowale

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Lord Victor Adabawali. A cross bench peer, he spends his time in the Palace of Westminster among the great and the good of the land, discussing matters of legislation and state. In sharp contrast to his working life outside the chamber, that's been spent among the disadvantaged and addicted, the people so often labelled hopeless cases.

Presenter0:55

He wasn't quite a hopeless case himself when he started out, but failing all his A-levels and becoming a road sweeper gives us something of a flavour of his early years. He says of his prominent position in public life I'm a six-foot black guy from Wakefield who isn't rich, didn't go to Eton or Oxbridge, isn't a lawyer. What the hell am I doing here? So, Victor Adabiwali, um do you is that what other people think, do you think? Or sometimes when you're sitting on those red leather benches among the Lords, spiritual and temporal, is that what they think?

Lord Victor Adebowale1:26

I don't think they all think that. Some of them might do. I mean the seven hundred peers, I'm sure that statistically there must be some of them thinking what's he doing here? But then I'm probably thinking thinking the same thing about them as well, so that's fair enough.

Presenter1:26

Otto

Presenter1:38

Is there another one with dreadlocks, or is that just she?

Lord Victor Adebowale1:40

Um no there are quite a few with long hair, but not dreadlocks. You know, I'm nearly fifty, I'd I'm just growing it'cause I've got it, you know. Yeah.

Presenter1:46

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale1:47

He sit at

Presenter1:47

Um you were one of the it was two thousand and one when you were appointed as one of the they they became known as the People's Peers. It was this sort of revolution in the Lords. You don't like that title, really, the People's Peers.

Lord Victor Adebowale1:53

Sort of revolution

Lord Victor Adebowale1:55

No, it's meaningless. It's it's spin, isn't it? I'm a crossbench peel, happened to get there by an unusual route. I had an interview, like a job interview, and I got the job.

Presenter2:05

What did they ask you at the job interview?

Lord Victor Adebowale2:07

They asked me about legislation and how I think I would use my position in the Lords, and they asked me about my work at Centrepoint, because I was just leaving Centrepoint then, about myself. It's kind of testing my sense of public service, I guess. Knowledge, commitment, understanding.

Presenter2:28

And just to be clear, center point i of course is the organization that you led for many years that helps young homeless people.

Lord Victor Adebowale2:31

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale2:33

Yeah, that's right. And before that I'd been an Alcohol Recovery Project and so I'd and well, they were all campaigning jobs that put you to some degree in the public eye and

Presenter2:34

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale2:42

I suppose they thought he's got a big gob, you might as well do something with it.

Presenter2:45

And on the on the day that you were do they call it being sworn in? You've had, I imagine, the ermine robes and the was your mum with you? False fur. False fur.

Lord Victor Adebowale2:48

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale2:50

Yeah. Was your mum with the real thing. A hired mind. Well, there's a lot of people there who I loved and still love. My mum.

Presenter3:00

What did you

Lord Victor Adebowale3:01

Uh

Presenter3:01

I'm sorry.

Lord Victor Adebowale3:01

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale3:02

Um, she didn't say a lot, to be honest. You know, I think that she probably thought

Lord Victor Adebowale3:10

He is employed.

Presenter3:14

What do you had you worried up until then that you weren't you didn't want a real job?

Lord Victor Adebowale3:16

Well, do you know?

Lord Victor Adebowale3:18

Well, no, I just I think she thought, you know, son, you've done you've done all right. You know, you've done you've done okay.

Presenter3:24

Time to kick the music off then. Tell me about the first discs today.

Lord Victor Adebowale3:28

Um it's Stevie Wonder, living for the city.

Presenter3:31

And you've chosen this why, Victor.

Lord Victor Adebowale3:32

Well because Stevie Wonder is iconic if you want to hear just talent, creativity and a connection with an understanding of how the world works for a black guy who isn't privileged then Stevie Wonder's your man. You know this guy campaigned for years to get a day off to celebrate the birthday of Martin Luther King and succeeded. So how could I not have him in eight records? You know it's Stevie Wonder living for the city. It's got to be.

Speaker 44:00

His hair is long, his feet are fine and breezy.

Speaker 44:05

He spends his life walking the streets up to Laxi Day.

Speaker 44:10

He's almost dead from freezing in air pollution.

Speaker 44:15

Kids trying to fuck

Speaker 44:17

To hear myself solution, living just enough, just enough for the ship's head.

Presenter4:27

That was Stevie Wonder and Living for the City. So tell me, Victor Adabawali, wh where were the seeds of your social awareness sown?

Lord Victor Adebowale4:35

Mine were I guess growing up in Wakefield, being one of few black families in Wakefield, but actually it's not really that either. It's just I remember having the balloon debate with myself about what I was gonna do.

Presenter4:47

Right.

Lord Victor Adebowale4:47

And I thought that there are very few things that really, really matter. Housing, clothing, you know, Maslow's hierarchies I guess. And I wanted to do something that I felt mattered.

Presenter4:56

Um

Presenter5:01

Right. And and and w yes, what age were you starting to think I want to do something that matters?

Lord Victor Adebowale5:02

Uh

Lord Victor Adebowale5:06

Um

Lord Victor Adebowale5:07

I've always thought that.

Lord Victor Adebowale5:09

Thirteen, maybe? Twelve.

Presenter5:11

Yeah, young. You ran Centrepoint for five years and it it famously, of course, had its uh patron in uh Diana Princess of Wales. Um when did you meet her? Did you meet her on the first day in the

Lord Victor Adebowale5:22

First day, yeah. Yeah, day one. I think she'd made some speech around packing in public life. The job was to go on the Today programme and talk about youth homelessness.

Presenter5:22

Boom.

Presenter5:32

Had you done that? Have you been on the Today program before? No.

Lord Victor Adebowale5:33

You bet on the

Lord Victor Adebowale5:35

No. And then go to Saint James's Palace and persuade Princess Darnin not to dump Centrepoint as a patron. And then go into the office and start working on a pretty significant restructuring'cause we needed to raise a million quid or something in a seven month.

Presenter5:52

Yeah. And if you didn't raise a million quid, you were going down the tubes, is that?

Lord Victor Adebowale5:55

Pretty much it.

Presenter5:57

That's quite a day at the office.

Lord Victor Adebowale5:57

That's quite a deal at the office. Really, I I felt the pressure that I had to walk out of that um palace with Princess Dana tied to center point because otherwise my start at centre point would have been a little less than confident.

Presenter6:06

Yeah.

Speaker 46:06

Uh

Presenter6:11

Indeed. And and before you left, did she give you an absolute yes, or did she say I have to think about this?

Lord Victor Adebowale6:15

Uh I knew it was gonna be yes when I left, yeah.

Presenter6:18

How did you know she said she said that to you?

Lord Victor Adebowale6:20

Um, no,'cause we got on. You know if you cl if you've clicked with someone, you know, you know whether you've had a laugh and you've had a how can I put it, a meeting of causes and minds.

Presenter6:29

Okay.

Lord Victor Adebowale6:30

And um you have to remember the job that I took on wasn't about me and it wasn't about Princess Diana, it was about the people who weren't in the room.

Presenter6:39

Yes. And and and of course uh there there is always uh a a degree now and again of scepticism about why people who are bright shining stars do hook their notoriety to charities. Why do you think she wanted to do it?

Lord Victor Adebowale6:50

Charity

Lord Victor Adebowale6:53

Well, there's a whole range of motivations, aren't there? And, um I mean, I think she gave her down.

Lord Victor Adebowale6:59

Uh

Speaker 46:59

Price

Lord Victor Adebowale6:59

I mean there's all kinds of reasons, um but amongst them and the one that that I was bothered about was that she actually gave down about the issue. She cared about young people. I only I just made a laugh. I think my first words to her this wonderful living room that that I was asked to go into to wait and and she came in and my opening words were this is a great room, it's just like my living room, you know. And she thought it was funny.

Presenter7:24

Let's have some more music then, Victor Adabawally. What's next?

Lord Victor Adebowale7:27

Oh, it's Wash That Man Right Out of My Hair. And why have you chosen this one? Well, because I was talking to my sisters about my mum and thinking about this. My mum, one of the first films she ever saw was South Pacific. It's a very interesting musical actually, because it's about race and mixed race and all that sort of stuff. But it's also about a woman saying, I'm deciding I'm not going to be in a relationship with you for quite the wrong reasons. I mean, she didn't want to be in a relationship with him because he had mixed race children. And then she realized after a while that actually that didn't matter, that it's love. And this is just a song that makes me laugh actually.

Speaker 38:01

I'm gonna wash that man right out of my hair. I'm gonna wash that man right out of my hair. I'm gonna wash that man right out of my hair. And send him on his way. Get the picture? I'm gonna wave that man right out of my arms. I'm gonna wave that man right out of my arms. I'm gonna wave that man right out of my arms.

Speaker 48:17

I'm gonna wave that man right out of my arms. I'm gonna wave that man right out of my arms.

Speaker 38:23

And send him on.

Speaker 48:23

And send him on his way.

Presenter8:27

That was Mitzi Gaynor and the Ken Darby singers, and I'm going to wash that man right out of my hair from the original soundtrack to South Pacific. So, Victor Adabawali, as we know, you were brought up in Wakefield, you were born in the early sixties. Your parents had uh come over from Nigeria in nineteen fifty five. Yeah. What did they want from life in Britain?

Lord Victor Adebowale8:43

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale8:46

The same thing everybody wants really. You know, they came over to do good things. They were invited over actually. My dad was a very intelligent man and was certainly the deputy or headteacher in in Nigeria at a very early age and my mum wasn't qualified as a nurse. They weren't coming over here to to do the jobs that no one else wanted to do. They were coming here to add value, to progress, to do things.

Presenter9:13

And how were they treated when they got here?

Lord Victor Adebowale9:15

I think like most black people that came over in the fifties, what awaited them was was fear, really, fear and horror, because the population at large was unprepared for what they saw was an invasion. And they came to Scotland, first place they went to.

Presenter9:34

Yeah, they went to Portobello, which is on the coast just outside Edinburgh. Yeah, rather lovely place.

Lord Victor Adebowale9:35

Which is on the course.

Lord Victor Adebowale9:37

Edinburgh. Yeah, and I've got in there. It's a very nice place.

Presenter9:40

Why did they go there, though? I mean, it's not a typical place that one might choose. I know, I've not really.

Lord Victor Adebowale9:45

And

Presenter9:46

Uh

Lord Victor Adebowale9:46

I guess that if there was an Adi Buali motto it would be Don't follow the mob. Right. They didn't get the um No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish in Scotland. When they sat on a park bench, people didn't get up and walked away. People were curious.

Presenter9:50

Right.

Lord Victor Adebowale9:59

Uh

Presenter9:59

Right.

Lord Victor Adebowale10:00

Uh my dad could have made his first million first footing on New Year's Eve.

Presenter10:03

Of course, tall, dark, handsome stranger as long as he had the black bun, he would have been fine. So when they went to Wakefield then.

Lord Victor Adebowale10:04

It's a long

Lord Victor Adebowale10:07

Fuck.

Lord Victor Adebowale10:09

I don't think people

Lord Victor Adebowale10:10

I really appreciate it when I've r read and talked to not just my mother, but black people who came to England at that time, it was deeply racist. I mean they were considered to be less than human. My mother had to do all her exams again, even though she was perfectly well qualified as a nurse in Nigeria. And then my dad, um, who came over to do medicine, realized that actually, you know, if you called Addipawali, getting into medical school might have been a bit of a challenge. I mean, she could have done it in Nigeria, but they had better medical schools over here.

Presenter10:41

So what did your dad do? What was his job?

Lord Victor Adebowale10:42

He did all sorts of jobs while trying to get into s medical school. Um he was a thwarted man.

Presenter10:49

Was he right, and did did they ever think about going back to Nigeria and?

Lord Victor Adebowale10:52

No, because they couldn't afford to. I mean, the people arrived and became poor. The ladder was climbed by very few.

Presenter11:01

Did did your parents talk to you about that, Ben? Did they say when you go to school and somebody says, Whatever they might say, this is what you say back?

Lord Victor Adebowale11:08

No, I mean, both my parents had expectations of us.

Presenter11:14

Because you are one of four.

Lord Victor Adebowale11:15

Yeah, to do our best to not give in to other people's expectations. We had inculcated in us, thank God, a sense of pride and equality. We were poor, but we never went to school scruffy or dirty. We were taught to respect others. We were taught that if someone's pushing you, the thing to do is to take one small step backwards. That's interesting. And to be intelligent in your relationship with others. We were taught dignity.

Presenter11:32

Oh b

Presenter11:42

That's interesting.

Presenter11:45

Yeah.

Presenter11:47

And just a little bit more on your mum and dad, they they were young, educated, optimistic people with ambitions and hopes for themselves, not just for their kids. How did they deal with the disappointment?

Lord Victor Adebowale11:53

Mm but

Lord Victor Adebowale11:58

Um, I think my dad suffered. He he died recently and so he died a thwarted man.

Lord Victor Adebowale12:05

But it is possible to work hard, very hard, to be intelligent, to have all the attributes that should get you to the top and be thwarted by the prejudice of others. It's not just about race, it's I mean, women, people with disabilities, that's how isms work.

Presenter12:22

There's

Presenter12:25

Yes, hugely frustrating and a weight to bear through your entire life, did he talk to you about it?

Lord Victor Adebowale12:25

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale12:31

No, I understood it. I understand it now. And I've forgiven him for the things that he did because of it.

Presenter12:37

We're gonna have a bit more music then, Victor.

Presenter12:40

What's next and why?

Lord Victor Adebowale12:41

Oh, um it's Nimrod, Elgar's Enigma Variations. My dad used to get these boxes of records. We used to listen to a load of stuff and it was really difficult to pick, but we had these classical box sets and he used to play Tchaikovsky and Elgar. And I remember hearing this. This reminds me of him. There's some pain in there and there's struggle in there and there's strive and there's just something that reminds me of him.

Presenter14:09

That was Nimrod from Elgar's Enigma Variations, performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Charles McCarris. You you seemed somewhere else doing that, Victor out of the walleye. You back with us now?

Lord Victor Adebowale14:20

Yeah, yeah, no, I am.

Presenter14:21

Um a moment ago you said we were poor and and quite often when people talk about that when they're youngsters they say well we didn't really well yeah, we were poor now that I look back on it, but at the time I didn't really know. Was it something that you understood at the time?

Lord Victor Adebowale14:22

Mm-hmm.

Lord Victor Adebowale14:37

Um

Lord Victor Adebowale14:39

I don't think so actually. When I look back on it, w there were things that we there were a lot of things we didn't have, I mean the holidays, central eating, all that kind of stuff that we just didn't have. But poverty of circumstance did not preclude poverty of discourse and reading and engagement and stuff. So we weren't poverty stricken intellectually or aspirationally or emotionally, but we were poor.

Presenter15:03

You said once, If you want to know human nature, be a street sweeper. If you want to really understand what people are when they are not observed, be a street sweeper. When you were a street sweeper, what what did you learn about human nature?

Lord Victor Adebowale15:12

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale15:15

Um I learnt that actually cruelty can be very casual.

Lord Victor Adebowale15:19

Observing people

Lord Victor Adebowale15:22

is best done from the point where they don't notice you. Yes. So I kind of you do get to see how people behave around each other and what they do when they think no one's looking and how they treat people who they think are inconsequential.

Presenter15:25

Yeah.

Presenter15:35

You were head boy.

Lord Victor Adebowale15:36

Yeah.

Presenter15:37

How does Head Boy end up working for Wakefield Refuse Department?

Lord Victor Adebowale15:41

What happens? Um, nothing happened. It's just I don't learn by rote. And for a while I thought that meant you must be stupid. It doesn't actually. I've got a fairly good memory, but I'm not I go off I go off pieced. It was like a switch, you know, I couldn't do something just because I was told to do it.

Presenter16:00

So your A-level results were not what they could have been and you had to get away from.

Presenter16:04

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale16:07

Was that really it? Partly it, yeah, certainly. It was and and, it always was.

Lord Victor Adebowale16:12

'Cause my O levels were the same, you know, but I passed enough O levels to do A levels, you know, I did all right.

Presenter16:16

Yeah.

Presenter16:17

I mean, you went back and got your A levels and shaped up and went and we'll talk about your your further education in a moment, but you're a father of two kids yourself then. I mean, what do you tell them about what to expect from life?

Lord Victor Adebowale16:20

Book

Lord Victor Adebowale16:26

No, I mean with with Adam, who's working really hard on his G C S E's, aren't you, son? I mean, what I say to him is, Look, you're only uh it's an expectation, the only thing that I expect for him to do

Lord Victor Adebowale16:38

is

Lord Victor Adebowale16:39

hopefully stand on my shoulders and just reach that little bit higher.

Lord Victor Adebowale16:42

But look down because he is privileged, you know.

Lord Victor Adebowale16:46

As is my very cute daughter, and

Lord Victor Adebowale16:50

It's really important that they understand that. But I'd like him to use his intellect and his privileges to be happy. Do not pursue power,'cause it will kill your humanity.

Presenter17:01

A message to us all. Right, let's have some more music then. What are we gonna hear?

Lord Victor Adebowale17:02

Right.

Lord Victor Adebowale17:05

Well, I mean you've gotta have the stranglers and you and Peaches. It was an outrageous song at the time and now it's played on radio too. So and I just think it's a great song.

Speaker 417:15

Traveling alone, minding my own business.

Speaker 417:21

Well that goes a girl in the hack She stopped it going up and down

Speaker 417:26

She's got me going up and down

Speaker 417:35

Walking on the beaches, looking at the beaches

Speaker 417:39

Well I got the notion girl that you got some suntan lotion in that bottle of yours.

Presenter17:45

That was the Stranglers and Peaches. So, Victor Adabawali, you left Wakefield to study in London. Did that moment seem like the world was really opening up? You know, a huge cosmopolitan city?

Speaker 417:50

Uh

Lord Victor Adebowale17:50

Yeah.

Speaker 417:50

B

Lord Victor Adebowale17:53

Okay.

Lord Victor Adebowale17:55

Yep, it did. Yeah, yeah, it was great actually. It was saying goodbye to my mum and getting on the train. It was the only train journey I took actually because the rest of the time it was coaches from then on. Had you been to London before?

Presenter18:05

Pull the

Presenter18:06

You been to London before?

Lord Victor Adebowale18:07

I have been to London on a school trip, which was a pretty scary school trip, because um I got thrown up against the wall by some coppers that were looking for somebody had stolen somebody's handbag outside the Natural History Museum. The thing that saved me was my Yorkshire accent. It's not him, it's not him, Gof sort of dropped me, jumped in the car and drove off. It's like an episode out of Sweeney.

Presenter18:29

I don't want to draw too many obvious conclusions, but it was that about the colour of your skin. It was here's a black guy in amongst loads of white people.

Lord Victor Adebowale18:29

Any of the

Lord Victor Adebowale18:34

I think it probably was, yeah. Yeah, I think it was. It was just like I think maybe somebody'd given a description of a, you know, black or dark skinned or whatever and they just thought that's that's him.

Presenter18:35

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale18:44

I mean that was a really frightening actually. It was frightening.

Presenter18:45

And

Presenter18:47

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale18:48

You know you've got over something when you can laugh at it, but it was.

Presenter18:50

Right.

Lord Victor Adebowale18:51

Crazy, yeah.

Presenter18:52

And what about being a black person in a very prominent role? I mean, you know, the idea of standing out.

Lord Victor Adebowale18:58

Uh

Presenter18:58

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale18:58

Yeah.

Presenter18:58

You you still will, even in Britain today. People will remember you, but they will also I'm imagining it attracts negative attention at times.

Lord Victor Adebowale19:04

Oh yeah, it it does. I mean and it will do and it will do for the rest of my life. Um there's only been one occasion when I've had hate mail and that was at Centrepoint after Princess Diana died and I was on the television a lot because we decided that's what the strategy was gonna be to get Centrepoint's issues out there. Yeah, we did get some hate mail which the police took seriously and it was a bit scary. And I I'm very conscious of well not very but I'm aware that there are people out there

Lord Victor Adebowale19:33

who are terrorists. I mean they're racial terrorists. They are fueled by hate.

Presenter19:40

Working that out, your family would have been very young and then and certainly maybe your daughter wouldn't even have been born, of course, but your son.

Lord Victor Adebowale19:45

One of the qualities.

Lord Victor Adebowale19:46

Yeah.

Presenter19:46

It would have been very that must have been terrifying.

Lord Victor Adebowale19:48

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale19:49

It wasn't very pleasant, but I didn't I kept it to myself. I mean it's no point in frightening others.

Lord Victor Adebowale19:55

Racism is a very subtle and I know'cause I've spoken to women and and others about this where, you know, highly competent people um say or do something and it's ignored until the white person or the male says exactly the same thing and then that person's given the credit for it and that happens all the time.

Presenter20:16

Have you ever wanted to get up and walk out in such circumstances?

Lord Victor Adebowale20:19

Oh, I have got up and walked out. I'm perfectly polite and reasonable and rational, but I just don't f see the need to be there'cause I'm not adding any value. If you're not adding any value in that forum, then you work out a way to add value in another.

Presenter20:32

But you have been inv you know, invited in to sit round not obviously not the cabinet table at Downing Street, but you have.

Lord Victor Adebowale20:37

Actually, we have actually. Cabinet table. Yeah, the launch of the big society indeed.

Presenter20:39

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale20:42

Yeah. Right.

Presenter20:44

Bye.

Lord Victor Adebowale20:44

Spinning lighter tail.

Presenter20:44

Spend

Lord Victor Adebowale20:45

Go on then, tell us the tale. It's time well spent as long as you don't confuse access with influence.

Presenter20:51

Right. The fact that you're getting in the door doesn't mean that you're listening.

Lord Victor Adebowale20:52

Getting in the door doesn't mean they're listening and and and but one should try and influence. And I hope I have influenced um for the good or the interest of the people who aren't in the room. That's the point of it, you know, and it's time well spent if you can leave that little influence bomb in there or that little idea.

Presenter21:09

Let's have some more music then.

Lord Victor Adebowale21:10

Um right, L T J Book'em, of course it's just great stuff and you shouldn't say this, but me and my son both like this kind of stuff and it is good.

Speaker 421:20

Captive and reactive from the liver some right, stoked in the fires of black holding the mic, put pressure on your tempo. Watch up TV itches rocking instrumental. So water giving it all that I got. My vocal center, it becomes imperative for you to try to take in time. And we ain't got that flowing untap. Lyrical miracle world is under attack. So get your mind a merely a brain cell. Facts back with the information that is releasing the phone.

Presenter21:49

That was L T J Bookum, featuring Words to Be Heard with vocals by MC Conrad and Conquest. So, Victor Adabawali, the question of leadership. When did you find that you could open your mouth in a room, sound authoritative, and carry people with you on sometimes difficult journeys?

Presenter22:05

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale22:05

Um must have been about two now money joking.

Lord Victor Adebowale22:08

I wish that were true. I guess I realized I mean, probably in the late eighties.

Presenter22:09

I wish that

Lord Victor Adebowale22:17

I was doing a lot of work around housing for Newham Council and as a housing officer what you realized on a lot of the estates was that people were suffering from multiple problems, poverty being the sort of base one, but you know, it was also mental health, substance misuse, relationships. I mean the number of women that I worked with in Newham who had multiple abusive relationships with with men who who would beat them up and then had to be moved because of it. You just get to understand that it's more complicated than at first thought.

Presenter22:55

For the last ten years you've run an organization called Turning Point and that helps people with mental health issues, drug and alcohol abuse problems.

Lord Victor Adebowale22:58

Mm.

Lord Victor Adebowale23:01

Uh

Lord Victor Adebowale23:03

and learned disabilities.

Presenter23:04

Right, so people who are sort of at the bottom of our pile, as it were.

Lord Victor Adebowale23:08

Well, I know it sounds odd, but I find it very difficult when people use words like bottom of pile and disadvantaged. I know why they say it, but you know what? They're just people. Yes. You know, uh that you'd be amazed the veneer that separates um people who don't think that they're the bottom of the pile from people who are is quite thin actually. Yes, it's that moment of ill for

Presenter23:17

Yeah.

Presenter23:24

Yeah.

Presenter23:27

Yes, it's that moment of ill fortune, a moment when a marriage breaks down or a job is lost or yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale23:30

Yeah, and I've seen it so many times. So they're just people.

Presenter23:34

Can you think of a particular example of a great success story? Can you think of somebody you've met, somebody your organization's a

Lord Victor Adebowale23:40

Yeah.

Presenter23:41

Pick one then. Give me a quick example.

Lord Victor Adebowale23:42

Well I won't use a name, but I can think of someone who um had arrived. I mean if you l if you saw this guy, he was basically you would have said he was a tramp, he stank, he was he'd been on the streets for years, in terrible state. Actually it turned out that he'd walked out of a fairly middle class family and um had started drinking quite early on in his life. Most people would have walked away from him um and within I think it was about eighteen months, two years

Lord Victor Adebowale24:10

He was back studying to be a barrister. Two weeks ago I was in one of our learned disability services where a young man who had learned disabilities and had depression and alcohol had lived on his own for years in a house that was falling apart to the point where he'd got superating sore on his foot and he was going to be sectioned for his own good because they were going to cut his foot off and we got him into one of our services, started working with him on his drinking and he gave him a structure around his day, worked with him. He's got two feet. He lives in a house that he's able to manage on his own. We cleaned up his flat. You know, I can go there's loads of him, loads of stories like that.

Presenter24:53

I'm wondering if do you ever get ground down by the reality of constantly dealing with the difficulties that people

Lord Victor Adebowale24:59

Oh no, no, hell no. It is a privilege. When somebody asks for help

Lord Victor Adebowale25:05

It's a privilege to be able to.

Lord Victor Adebowale25:07

Sit alongside someone's life and see them succeed or not or come round again. People.

Lord Victor Adebowale25:15

um spend their whole lives trying to get power over others and people come to us and they hand us power to change their lives, to turn their lives around. And when you see people who have come in crawling and walk out with the head high, pff it's a privilege. Um I don't get ground down by what I do. No, no, it's this is a good good thing.

Presenter25:37

Let's have some music, Victor Adabawali, we're on uh we're on disc six.

Lord Victor Adebowale25:41

Ooh, prachi. Um

Lord Victor Adebowale25:44

The tourists. Yeah. I only want to be with you because this was Annie Lennox, who I saw at Unity Hall. It's one of those songs that I just always like to hear. But when I got married to T, who she was going to marry me, when we were getting married after the ceremony, we had this song playing, and as we were, we both heard it and we both looked at each other, we started dancing spontaneously down the aisle and people were clapping. It was one of those moments, you know, when you're happy and it all comes together and then something you react internally to happiness and you just start dancing and

Presenter25:45

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale26:19

We just had a great day.

Speaker 426:22

What it is that makes me love you so. I only know I never wanna let you go. Cause you started something old, can't you see? And ever since we met, you got a hold on me. Can't have ones to be true.

Speaker 426:48

I wanna spanish golden box today

Presenter26:53

That was the tourists and I only want to be with you in happy memories of your wedding day, Victor Adabowali, and dancing down the aisle with your new bride. You've said in the past I was never really interested in making money. I wanted to do something that made a valuable contribution to society. And yet it's true, isn't it, that big charities, big posts and local authorities, they have to pay the big money to attract the people who are able to do the job. I mean I I think the job that you're in attract uh had a salary of eighty five thousand pounds and that is quite a lot of money actually. Yeah, yeah. D does that sit comfortably with you?

Lord Victor Adebowale27:14

They have

Lord Victor Adebowale27:25

It was

Lord Victor Adebowale27:28

Oh yeah, yeah,'cause I I earned every penny, I still do. I run a business that works with what 140, 160,000 people a year. We we employ two and a half thousand people. I don't p get paid as much as the Prime Minister, but then, you know, I don't have a free house in the country and a free residence in central London and free transport either. So, you know, if I ran a bank and I was being paid twenty odd million pounds a year, nobody had bat an eyelid, even though I've brought the country to its knees. I happen to run an organisation. I don't think there's a problem with paying people to run complicated organisations.

Presenter27:58

I read you somewhere described as a social entrepreneur. That sounds very thrusting. Do you feel like a social entrepreneur?

Lord Victor Adebowale28:01

I sense

Lord Victor Adebowale28:05

No, I mean I've described a lot of things. And I run a business. We we don't do fundraising at turning point. We are we are a social enterprise in the sense that we have to make a a profit every year. That profit goes back into designing new services and creating new businesses. That's a business.

Presenter28:20

You don't fundraise. Is that because it would be too difficult to raise funds for something which is spectacularly unglamorous and

Lord Victor Adebowale28:21

Yeah.

Presenter28:27

Uh complex as you've described it.

Lord Victor Adebowale28:29

It is difficult if somebody knocked on your door and said, you know, s support your local neighbourhood, semi-secure you, and you wouldn't be reaching for your purse, would you? And so we don't fundraise simply because we found a more efficient business model, which is to actually contract with health and local authorities and others to provide an excellent service at a good price. It works.

Presenter28:51

What about the advice you give? You've been called on in the past to give advice to Labour and also the Liberals and Conservatives in their coalition. When you well, we do we know you do sit round the table, the Cabinet table, and you see the the almost all male white front bench, with one or two exceptions, Oxbridge educated, Eton in their suits, upper middle class as they are right now, do you despair about whether or not they can

Lord Victor Adebowale28:59

Oops.

Speaker 429:11

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale29:16

The

Presenter29:20

connect to the reality of the people at the who are taking the services that you provide.

Lord Victor Adebowale29:23

You're taking

Lord Victor Adebowale29:25

Well, I I don't despair,'cause I never despair. I just hope that they can understand,'cause it's not about being romantic about poverty or even applying some um uh political theories, however bizarre, it's about understanding. And if you're not prepared to do that, then people suffer, you know, millions of people suffer.

Presenter29:45

Let's have some music, then, Victor.

Lord Victor Adebowale29:47

Um the Cocteau twins. I heard them on on John Peel, they blew my mind. I've got everything they've ever got. Some people think they're rather weird, I think they're fantastic, I think it's poetry and music.

Speaker 430:06

Next to the lovely fire.

Speaker 430:15

Ruby sounds a rubber

Speaker 430:19

Well let it out!

Speaker 430:23

Please love it.

Presenter30:30

That was The Cocktail Twins and Pearly Dewdrops Drops. Um, Victor Adabawally, you are a big character. I'm guessing you need to be quite a big character to lead organisations. Um do you think you're easy to live with?

Presenter30:43

I don't think

Lord Victor Adebowale30:45

I mean, I've looked I've spent a lot of time thinking about leadership and it's not about character, it's about state of mind. And actually there are people who lead much bigger organizations than Turning Point who are

Lord Victor Adebowale30:57

small, quiet people who influence in very different ways. So I I think it's easy to imagine me'cause I'm a six foot black guy with dreadlocks being sort of um and I can be when necessary, but it's very rare that I need to, you know

Lord Victor Adebowale31:13

Direct. You shouldn't have to direct. Leadership is about what happens when you're not in the room, not about when you're there.

Presenter31:14

You shouldn't have

Presenter31:19

And at home, then, what do you usually?

Lord Victor Adebowale31:21

You need to talk to my good lady, wife, and kids. I think I'm an absolute angel to live with, to be honest. The things I put up with

Lord Victor Adebowale31:28

Crikey, jumping on me bed at n oh dear. Yeah. It's terrible in our house.

Presenter31:31

Yeah.

Presenter31:33

Yeah, how old is your youngest?

Lord Victor Adebowale31:34

She's five. Oh, okay. Yeah, so lots of jumping on the bed.

Presenter31:36

Yeah, so lots of jumping on the bed.

Presenter31:39

When you referred to your mother, and especially when we were talking about the House of Lords, she must surely have taken a moment to say to you, Son?

Presenter31:47

Well done.

Lord Victor Adebowale31:48

Um

Lord Victor Adebowale31:50

You know what, she didn't, and she didn't have to.

Lord Victor Adebowale31:52

We just don't have that kind of relationship, I guess. And we don't she's not aspirational in that kind of, you know, that's my boy kind of way. And I'm really glad about that. She's she was much more chilled than that. Um

Lord Victor Adebowale32:04

I'd like to think she's proud of me, and I know

Lord Victor Adebowale32:07

that I haven't let her down and I don't think any of my brothers and sisters have let have let her down. We we've done all right, you know, and as I say, you know, Adi Biwali's wobble, but we don't fall down. You know, we we've done all right. And she's did all right by us and we're just paying our respects.

Presenter32:24

Would you have a wobble on the island, all on your own? Nobody to talk to?

Lord Victor Adebowale32:28

That sounds great.

Lord Victor Adebowale32:30

Um I'm actually quite resourceful.

Speaker 432:33

Come.

Lord Victor Adebowale32:34

So I'd think about I think I'm quite s resourceful and quite self-directed. Once I set a goal, I'm pretty focussed on it. So if I wanted to get off the island, I'm pretty certain I'd get off it.

Speaker 432:34

But

Lord Victor Adebowale32:45

The holiday would be nice. You know, a couple of weeks. That'd be quite cool.

Presenter32:50

Time for your final piece of music then, Victor. What are we gonna hear?

Lord Victor Adebowale32:52

Um well I've always liked a bit of jazz and Ben Webster and C and Coleman Hawkins have been with me for, well, pretty much all my um musical life. So I've got to have some Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins. It never entered my mind.

Speaker 433:14

I know.

Speaker 433:25

Come on.

Presenter33:43

That was Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins, and it never entered my mind. So, Victor, here you go the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take a book of your own to accompany them. What's it going to be?

Lord Victor Adebowale33:51

Yeah.

Lord Victor Adebowale33:52

Look at the

Lord Victor Adebowale33:54

Uh it'd have to be the complete works of Wallace Sinker. Yes.'Cause um I'm getting into him and he'd be a great reader and he's got a lot to say.

Presenter33:57

Yeah.

Presenter34:02

You can have that.

Lord Victor Adebowale34:02

Really?

Presenter34:03

Okay, and a luxury too. Helicopter? Absolutely not.

Lord Victor Adebowale34:08

Can't even believe you thought you'd get that one past me.

Lord Victor Adebowale34:10

Well, I mean, you know, no instructions. I can't fly one. I'd have to learn, wouldn't I? Right, no, no, no.

Presenter34:14

And then

Lord Victor Adebowale34:15

I'd take my saxophone.

Presenter34:17

Ah.

Lord Victor Adebowale34:17

Yeah,'cause I'd have plenty of time to practice and I'd I'd use it for something.

Presenter34:20

Okay, it's yours. And if you had to take just one disk from the eight, which one disk would you save?

Lord Victor Adebowale34:25

Oh crikey. Well, I'll take the Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins. Okay. Why not?

Presenter34:31

Okay.

Presenter34:33

Victor Adebowale, Baron Adebawali, of Thorns in West Yorkshire, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Lord Victor Adebowale34:39

Thank you, it's been a guess.

Presenter35:20

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter35:23

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk/radio4.