Heather Rabbatts

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the barrister and businesswoman Heather Rabats. It would be fair to describe her as someone who likes a challenge. From Millwall Football Club to the Royal Opera House, she has a talent for turning a crisis into an opportunity, which came in handy when she took over running the chronically dysfunctional Lambeth Council in the mid nineties. Ten thousand staff, a nine hundred million pound turnover, and even the advertisement in the paper touting for candidates said it was probably the worst job in local government.

Presenter1:06

Born in Jamaica and brought up in Britain, she left school with just a couple of O levels. Her teacher said if she was lucky, she might work in a shop. She says life is to be lived. I've always enjoyed standing on the edge and taking risks. So, Heather, about standing on the edge and taking risks, and, I'm imagining, being in charge. You enjoy that too.

Heather Rabbatts1:24

Antique.

Heather Rabbatts1:28

I definitely like being in charge, and I've always felt that I can gather everybody's spirits and energies to take that jump into the unknown together. And that's what I've enjoyed in across all the different sectors I've been lucky enough to work in.

Presenter1:45

Yes. So um in your time you have been a governor at the BBC and at the London School of Economics, and of course there's no point in quoting the figures because everybody knows that most wardrooms in Britain are still male dominated and still white. How have you found them as environments to work in?

Heather Rabbatts1:50

And then

Heather Rabbatts2:02

They've all had their unique and different challenges and I I still feel after all these years that women's voice, obviously not least in football, is still pretty rare. I think I have worked with some incredibly talented people however and you learn to navigate the politics across the boardroom table and that's what I've done wherever I have been.

Presenter2:24

Yeah.

Presenter2:27

Exactly as I would expect from somebody who's held the positions you have. But I'm thinking practically, can you give me an illustration of the kind of thing where you thought this guy's just really not listening to me?

Heather Rabbatts2:28

From some data.

Heather Rabbatts2:36

There probably have been too many instances of when you've sat round a table and you've made a comment and you realise that you've just been ignored. There were certainly in the world of football certain characters who would definitely ignore and not even listen to what you were saying. When you go into a boardroom as a woman, I think the big difference is that you always have to win the approval and respect of the people round that table. If you're a man, it's accorded to you automatically. And it doesn't matter how much experience you have, you always have to do it.

Presenter3:09

And you're not a blender in. I mean, you are I'm imagining you know, everybody makes choices about how they look. You are flamboyant. I mean, today you know you're wearing a very sort of chic uh sheath dress and and coat matching coat in black, but around that are very dangly earrings, lots of jewelry on the wrists. You you want people to say take a look at me.

Heather Rabbatts3:13

You know, everybody makes

Heather Rabbatts3:20

I would match

Heather Rabbatts3:23

Yeah.

Heather Rabbatts3:27

Yes, I've been-I've never wanted to be nice, because nice is about blending into the wallpaper. And I suppose because I was this young mixed race girl in a very white area, I couldn't blend in. And actually, I made the decision I am gonna just stand out more. And that's partly how I used to defend myself in terms of dealing with the sort of school playground bullies. And actually, that sense of being flamboyant, going back to the conversation about boardrooms, it sort of disarms people. If people can't put you in that pigeonhole, that's one of the ways that you get your voice heard around those very male-dominated arenas.

Presenter4:07

And what about at home? Do you take your foot off the gas or you laid back and relax? Do you sort of let the weekends float by in a haze of inefficiency?

Heather Rabbatts4:11

Pfft.

Heather Rabbatts4:15

Um increasingly so.

Presenter4:16

Uh

Heather Rabbatts4:16

Uh

Heather Rabbatts4:18

And certainly my family would definitely, when they open the fridge and there is no food, say clearly the inefficiency has risen to yet another level.

Presenter4:28

To the music then, Heather Rabatz. Tell me about the first disc that we're going to hear today.

Heather Rabbatts4:29

Yeah, I've got

Heather Rabbatts4:33

Well, I recently saw Karine Bailey Rae in concert, and she's just a stunning performer. She's this mixed race, really talented young woman from Leeds.

Heather Rabbatts4:45

And she sang this song Kay Sarasara, which my mum used to play for me as a little girl, which was really none of us knows what the future is gonna be, so live your life, live every day. And I was utterly surprised when she came on and sang this song of my childhood, but in her voice, it was just a brilliant moment.

Speaker 45:07

When I was just a little girl I asked my mother what will I weigh?

Speaker 45:23

Will I be pretty? Will I be rich? Is what she said to me.

Presenter5:37

That was Corinne Bailey Rae with John McCullum and K. Seurat Seurat. So, Heather Rabats, y your career spans so many industries. There is there's T V, the arts, transport, education, banking.

Presenter5:49

It's it would be impossible for anybody to have knowledge in all these different areas. Do you think a sort of a lack of first hand experience ever makes you anxious about what you can bring to the the boardroom table?

Heather Rabbatts6:02

Yes, it does. There's always that moment which is have I d have I just taken one step too far in my risk taking ambition. But what I always hold fast to is actually that there will be many experts around the table. At the moment I'm involved with Crossrail and digging a new tunnel underneath some unbelievable central London architecture. There are the most brilliant engineers. That's not my task and it isn't about being the engineer. It is about understanding how all of those bits fit together to make the overall project, whatever that project might be, work.

Presenter6:31

Right.

Presenter6:40

I want to talk about your two sort of most prominent roles, running Lambeth and then Millwall, in a little bit more detail later on, but I'm wondering when you look back on them.

Heather Rabbatts6:43

Run.

Heather Rabbatts6:45

More detail later on. But I'm

Presenter6:48

Given that they were, I imagine, the toughest posts, are they the ones that you look back on with the greatest fondness?

Heather Rabbatts6:55

I think I do, actually. I think I do. Uh they uh so powerfully shaped me and the people I met and worked with were really wonderful. Despite brands and reputations.

Heather Rabbatts7:10

There are always great people in organisations. And therefore, yes, I think I probably do look at them both with uh joy, actually.

Presenter7:19

And have you ever been in an organization where you've thought the sheer torpor that it's operating under is so great that I actually do you know what? I'm not up to the job.

Heather Rabbatts7:23

Opera

Heather Rabbatts7:30

I've never found that sense of torpor, one that's led me to think I can't do this. It's actually um revealed what do I need to do to create energy. And what I usually do in those situations is drive people in a way they've never been driven before.

Presenter7:51

And so and obviously there have been times wh when you you've gotten rid of great chunks of people from organizations. Do you go at such a pace that you just watch them fall away? Or is it literally the case it must be I suppose quite often with people at a very high level come into my office, I need to talk to you.

Heather Rabbatts7:56

From organizations.

Heather Rabbatts8:06

Mm.

Heather Rabbatts8:07

I mean, I was called the Terminator in part of my career because so many people left in this instance Lambeth. And I think it's a mix. There's your very senior officers who you come to a view that we can't go on this journey together. You either haven't got the skill set or the experience, or you're in such opposition to me.

Speaker 48:33

10

Heather Rabbatts8:33

That we're not going to make this work. It's never easy. I've always found it hard.

Heather Rabbatts8:40

People are angry, they're upset, and I think how you treat people in their moments of exit is hugely important, not only for them, for you, but also for the rest of the organisation. So the maintenance of humanity, I think, for me is part of a key criteria of being a leader in any organisation. But you can't shy away from it. My advice is always to act decisively, because then people will make the adjustments.

Presenter9:09

Over the years, in the many different roles that you've had, do you know how many people you have sat down with per personally I'm talking about one to one and said, It's time for you to go?

Heather Rabbatts9:17

Uh

Presenter9:18

Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Rabbatts9:18

Uh

Presenter9:18

Oh gosh.

Heather Rabbatts9:19

Um I've probably done it in over a hundred, a hundred and fifty instances. It's been a lot.

Presenter9:26

Yeah.

Heather Rabbatts9:27

For some music. What

Presenter9:27

Snixed, then, Heather.

Heather Rabbatts9:29

Well, it's Bob Dylan. This is a song that will remind me of growing up. And my sister, we shared a bedroom together in the for our first sixteen years of our lives, and she loved The Stones and The Beatles and Dylan, and I certainly love this particular track.

Speaker 49:46

All along the watchtower

Speaker 49:50

Princes kept the view.

Speaker 49:54

While the women came and went, Barefoot servants too.

Speaker 410:01

Outside in the distance

Speaker 410:05

A wild cat did groan

Speaker 410:08

Two riders were approaching.

Presenter10:11

Yeah.

Presenter10:12

The wind began to howl

Presenter10:16

That was Bob Dylan and All Along the Watch Tower. So, Heather, um, let's find out where this organizational flair sprang from. Then, you were born in Jamaica. It was nineteen fifty five, wasn't it? Yes. How many how many years did you spend in Jamaica?

Heather Rabbatts10:26

Uh

Heather Rabbatts10:29

Hardly any. We came over here as young total as a family. I was just about three years old when we arrived.

Presenter10:36

So you probably have do you have some memories of Jamaica?

Heather Rabbatts10:39

I do have some memories and and in many ways I have memories of Jamaica because my mum talked about it the whole time as a little girl because she missed it actually so much and therefore the sort of colour and the vibrancy and the music was how she made Jamaica sort of part of our lives so that when I went actually back to Jamaica sadly when I went she she she died by that time it was as if when I got off the plane I was going home I had that real sense of familiarity and instant empathy with this this country

Presenter11:15

And tell me more about your your mum, then. What was her story?

Heather Rabbatts11:19

as with many Jamaicans, left Jamaica to go to North America to work. So her brothers and her and indeed her mum would go and work in particularly in New York and they go back to Jamaica always for their family holidays. She was a seamstress but then became a house model. So she was one of the very first black women to become a house model. And there are these absolutely stunning pictures of my mum in the in almost like a Grace Kelly gown. This was the forties. This is the forties. It was pioneering. Really pioneering. Oh, you know, segregation. I mean this was you know she would go and model the clothes and then you would leave by another exit from the building.

Presenter11:52

So she's

Presenter11:55

Silva

Presenter11:55

Really?

Heather Rabbatts12:06

you know, we forget now how segregated uh that whole environment was. You know, you were in Harlem, you wouldn't the only white singer, and I always remember my mum telling me this, that would come into the black clubs was Frank Sinatra, and she loved Frank Sinatra because of it. But otherwise, it was an absolute divide.

Presenter12:24

It must have been I mean, as much as sh she had the challenges of living in a a segregated world that was prejudiced against her, uh it does sound like a a very a fascinating life and a vibrant time. Why did she go back then to to Jamaica?

Heather Rabbatts12:34

Time.

Heather Rabbatts12:37

She went back to Jamaica because uh that's where her cousins' grandparents were. She was probably by this point thirty, which was quite old in those days to be married. And she met my dad, who had stayed on in the army after the Second World War, and they got married after six weeks. Then very quickly she had both myself and my sister, and she was very happy because she was back with her family in Jamaica. She had us two girls and then she comes to the grey and bleak landscape of the Medway towns, and that was pretty grim.

Presenter13:12

Let's have some music. What's next?

Heather Rabbatts13:14

Well, this is a real anthem for my mum. This is Diana Washington. We would play on, you know, the old record player, lots of music of Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday. But Diana Washington was somebody who never quite had the profile actually, even now, that some of those other great singers enjoy. But I think she's just got the most magnificent voice.

Speaker 413:38

Uh

Heather Rabbatts13:38

Uh

Speaker 413:39

Hey yo! Nobody

Speaker 413:42

Until somebody loves you.

Speaker 413:50

You're nobody.

Speaker 413:53

Ah, tell somebody here.

Speaker 414:01

You may be queen.

Speaker 414:03

You made the sense

Speaker 414:06

The world

Presenter14:07

That was Dinah Washington, and you're nobody till somebody loves you. So, Heather Robatzi, we haven't even really mentioned your dad, apart from the fact that he married your mother. What was your dad like?

Heather Rabbatts14:16

My dad was a very quiet, quite shy man. You couldn't have picked two more opposite characters. He'd been brought up um in Bermondsey and he came from a very poor background, uh left school at a young age, but then went to evening classes. And it was probably only after my mother died that my dad and I got close, really. But he always backed me. He was always the person who said, No, if that's what you want to do. Like what?

Presenter14:44

Like what?

Heather Rabbatts14:45

You know, when I left school and came to London, it that was at sixteen. That was not an easy moment back at back at home, but I really couldn't take school anymore. And the deal was, well, if you come to London

Heather Rabbatts14:58

you're going to have to try and get back into education, but you need to work and support yourself. But he understood why for me leaving school was just I had to be out of that environment.

Presenter15:09

Yes. Now here's a confusion to me because, you know, as we as I've said, a a a barrister and indeed all the things you've gone on to achieve at a very high level. How come you left school with just two O levels?

Heather Rabbatts15:13

That is

Heather Rabbatts15:18

Um

Heather Rabbatts15:19

I failed my 11 plus, you know, it was at that time in the education system. How come?

Heather Rabbatts15:25

I just couldn't do those tests.

Heather Rabbatts15:28

And I suppose by that point I was already struggling with issues around my identity and I just found school difficult. You know, at that time there were n there were no other

Heather Rabbatts15:38

you know, kids from any other backgrounds but English backgrounds.

Presenter15:42

Were you treated differently?

Heather Rabbatts15:45

Yes, I mean, I've I was a curiosity for some.

Heather Rabbatts15:49

I mean, I made friends. So again, I wouldn't want to sort of label everybody, but y you were you know, it was a time where you would be called monkey and half breed and those sorts of names. And and I think at times, you know, as we know, children can be very cruel without realizing it. I think they thought it was a slight joke. They didn't realize how hurt it it made me feel. But it was a very lonely place. And I think that as a consequence, um, my educational performance suffered.

Presenter16:21

Yeah. Wh when you were being called those r repugnant names in in uh in the schoolyard and so on, d did you go home and talk to your mother about it, or did you feel that was to burden her?

Heather Rabbatts16:24

I'm sorry.

Heather Rabbatts16:26

Don't want it

Heather Rabbatts16:29

Yeah, no, I d I very rarely told her because she was going through her own traumas uh about being very isolated and as a consequence, you know, suffered from depression for many years. And I would go home and try and make her feel better. Do you think she felt

Presenter16:44

That she had made a mistake coming to Britain.

Heather Rabbatts16:49

Yes, I she always wanted to go home. I can remember sort of making plans with her, you know, a six year old, well, this if we did this and saved this amount of money, mum.

Heather Rabbatts16:58

Uh we can go back. She'd been this incredibly independent woman. I mean, she'd earned her own living. And she used to say to me, uh, make sure you always have your own knicker money.

Presenter17:09

That's money tucked into drawers yes.

Heather Rabbatts17:10

despite how much I love my husband, I've always had a sense of my own bank accounts, my own independence, my own financial security. That stayed with me my entire life.

Presenter17:21

Let's have some more music. Uh we're on disc four.

Heather Rabbatts17:24

Oh gosh, well it's Bob Marley. Natural Mystic is a is this lovely track. There are very few musicians which one's sons like at the same way as you do, but Bob Marley is a sort of family hero figure and it's quite a spiritual song and so I think I'll listen to some Marley.

Speaker 417:44

The natural mystic

Speaker 417:59

This could be the first trust bank.

Speaker 418:03

Priceless will be the lamb's

Speaker 418:06

Anymore will have to suffer.

Speaker 418:10

Many more will I

Presenter18:13

That was Bob Marley and Natural Mystic. So, Heather Robatz, being a chief executive can be a very lonely place. Do you think that you are well prepared in that respect, that you know how it it feels to stand on your own in the middle of be it at the playground or be at the boardroom? You you you're used to that feeling and you can cope with it.

Heather Rabbatts18:25

The ability to

Heather Rabbatts18:27

Used to that.

Heather Rabbatts18:29

I think that's probably right. I think it is about being respected. You know, you are both in a team, working with teams, but you're never of the team because you might the next day have to call one of them in and say no more.

Presenter18:44

Well, it is often that key teacher, the one person that recognises something that everybody else fails to recognise. Uh that happened to you when?

Heather Rabbatts18:52

When I came uh to London I went to a further education college and I met my first black teacher, a guy called Max Johnson. It was one of those sort of, you know, enrolment days. And I I think he probably saw a slightly lost soul and he

Presenter19:04

Right.

Heather Rabbatts19:09

Gut had me sign up for his A level and thankfully Max got me to do my A levels.

Presenter19:13

So you got your A levels and you made it to the L S C. And after that you you trained as a barrister. You know, a lot of people decry the idea that people from ethnic backgrounds are given opportunities that they might not otherwise be, that there is a sense of, of course, positive discrimination is the phrase. Do you believe in that?

Heather Rabbatts19:25

Second.

Heather Rabbatts19:28

I don't believe in positive discrimination. What I believe is in ensuring that talent.

Heather Rabbatts19:36

be it black talent, female talent, has the opportunity to rise and achieve their potential. And unless you make positive interventions to enable those issues of diversity to be addressed in organisations, it will not happen.

Presenter19:51

But what does that mean then? If it if it's not quotas, what does it mean? Is it just an atmosphere within a building? Can it be as sort of nodulous as that?

Heather Rabbatts19:57

It's partly atmosphere, it's partly atmosphere, it's partly about the signals you send out as a leader of an organisation. When I was in Lambeth, Nelson Mandela came on the royal visit. The first person he spoke to when he came out of the car was the black security guard who stood on the bottom of the step, and all the great and the good with all their medals stood in and waited.

Heather Rabbatts20:19

In that instant, he conveyed something beyond any words about actually how we are all important in terms of what we do. And then it is about when I was a football in football, and we're not having sacked a manager, we used to get all these applicants from these guys saying,

Heather Rabbatts20:36

I've just taken Luton to the top of the European Championship and I would think, well, I know my football knowledge is not great, but I'm sure Luton have never gone to the European Championship.

Heather Rabbatts20:46

And you read down their application because they spent all their times on football manager on a PlayStation, and they thought that equipped them to apply for managerial jobs. And actually, if you talk to women, I say, Why aren't you applying for this job? Oh, I can't do that, Heather. You talk to a guy, and they've done hardly anything, and they will instantly believe that they can apply for that job. And that to me is about encouraging women to say, Go for it.

Presenter21:10

Since you've brought us to the area of dangerous feminist thinking, let's talk about uh um the women of Greenham Common, who you represented as as a barrister. You went to visit them?

Heather Rabbatts21:17

It is at

Heather Rabbatts21:20

I did, I did. I used to visit them in the mud, of course, in my heels. They were all in Wellington and they were knitting for peace. I mean, they looked at me in utter despair. I've obviously been a very strong supporter of women's rights from my earliest memory, but I would be slightly irritated with this sort of knitting for peace. But hey, look, it was amazing. It was amazing that these women left their homes, they took their kids to campaign for nuclear disarmament. So a cause I absolutely felt very strongly about myself. But I can't say that I felt a great bonding with the Greener women, nor they with me.

Presenter21:55

Let's have some music then, Heather Rabats.

Heather Rabbatts21:57

We're gonna hear Joan Sutherland just a soaring, soaring, soaring voice, and this is her singing from Norma Castadiva.

Speaker 422:44

Single sin for weeks.

Presenter23:01

Joan Sutherland singing Casta Diva from Bellini's Norma. Do you watch The Apprentice?

Heather Rabbatts23:06

I have watched The Apprentice.

Presenter23:08

Do you think, Sir Allan, I wouldn't do it like that?

Heather Rabbatts23:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Heather Rabbatts23:12

Of course, I understand why it works on television terms, but would you want to be managed in that sort of way, with that sort of level of aggression and hostility? I mean, it is a sort of a management way of doing things that has obviously way past its sell by date. And I I'm sure so and actually in reality it doesn't work like that at all. It's sort of great popular television, but

Heather Rabbatts23:33

That's not real life.

Presenter23:34

So, Heather Batts, you you had married young, you'd married your college sweetheart. When did you have your child?

Heather Rabbatts23:38

Sweet.

Heather Rabbatts23:40

I had my son in 1983. Oh gosh.

Presenter23:43

And what was happening in your working life at that point?

Heather Rabbatts23:45

I was a barrister in Chambers. In fact, I was told if you don't really try now, you you're not going to be able to have a child because I don't think I'm naturally maternal and I was at home with my son for the first sort of eighteen months before he then went to nursery and I took a a six month job at that point working for a local government campaign uh team and sort of fell into the world of local government.

Presenter24:09

You don't think you're naturally maternal.

Heather Rabbatts24:11

I don't think so. You have to talk to my son and my stepson. I used to go to those, you know, mum and toddler groups and I just found all of that just beyond me, really. No, I think have I been a good mother? I I have tried. I think I've got better at it as he's got older. I was the youngest chief exec in the country, you know, at 31 years old. And, you know, they were long hours. And so there was quite a lot that I missed. And I look back at that with some regret. I always say to women, actually, it's very difficult to, you know, be there at home doing the bedtime stories and run big complex organisations.

Presenter24:49

So that's what you say to women. What do you say to Ewan? Did you have conversations with him?

Heather Rabbatts24:53

I have. I have had conversations with him as he's got older, and partly about my own sense of.

Presenter24:57

I'm Paul.

Heather Rabbatts25:00

regret and of course I adore him and think he's wonderful, but he said to me, He said, Yeah, but you know, mum, how do you think I've turned out? and I said, Well, you know, I think you've turned out as a pretty lovely young man. He said, Well, that then actually it all worked out, didn't it? And he doesn't look back and think, Well, you know,

Heather Rabbatts25:16

My mum didn't read me the bedtime story. For big moments in his life or whenever there was issues, I was absolutely you know, I'd be out that office door faster than um, you know, Roadrunner. And so those are those are the moments he remembers.

Presenter25:29

Let's have some music, Heather.

Heather Rabbatts25:31

Well, this is a anthem to me and my women mates. Uh, you know and it is when the going gets tough. When the going gets tough, actually you go round to your friends and you put on your high heel shoes and you have a glass and you blast Tina Turner, simply the best.

Speaker 425:50

Take my heart and make it strong

Speaker 425:55

A simpler

Speaker 426:10

I love that.

Presenter26:13

Tina Turner and simply the best for you, Heather Batts and your girlfriends when the going gets done. Put that on the C D player. So you applied for the job, as I said, that was described as probably the worst job in local government, and you have since said that the only thing wrong about that phrase was the probably bit. Yeah, tell me why why on earth you decided to apply for the post.

Speaker 426:29

Pivot.

Heather Rabbatts26:35

Well, there's a there's a saying that it's better to live one day as a tiger than a hundred days as a sheep.

Heather Rabbatts26:42

At the time, there were many people who said, Don't go and do this, it will ruin your career.

Presenter26:46

Yes, I mean Lambeth was the original rotten borough, just to remind people.

Heather Rabbatts26:49

That's too.

Heather Rabbatts26:50

I mean it was totally dysfunctional. I mean it didn't collect council tax. Virtually all of the schools were about to go into special measures. Hadn't reconciled our accounts for 18 years, which is 900 million turnover. I mean it's a big entity and just it was like nothing worked. Nothing worked. There were moments when I really would lie awake thinking, what have I done?

Presenter27:12

Yes. And so what in your own head, what was the standard that you were setting yourself to say, well, yes, at least I know I've made a difference. Was there one important thing that you thought you had to change, or was it not as simple as that?

Heather Rabbatts27:23

For me it was about actually getting Lambeth out of the news. It was about it becoming a normal and functioning organisation and that was the five year plan. But I thought if we can shine a light in one little area, it will start to make things happen. And the one area was that we used to have estate lights and the lights would be on all day for three years and off all night for three years. And I got one guy and sixty thousand light bulbs and probably broke every rule there was about how you procure these things. I said just mend the lights on the estates and it will win us time to sort out a huge amount of complexity behind. In that one simple moment, people started thinking, actually maybe, maybe this time it can work.

Presenter28:06

Running a business, of course, would be pretty straightforward if it weren't for the customers and the staff. It's the mercurial nature of us humans that makes it tricky. What have been your trickiest moments in dealing with when the stuff really hits the fan?

Heather Rabbatts28:12

Next.

Heather Rabbatts28:21

I think you're absolutely right, but the art of management and leadership is understanding that people come to work bringing their hopes and dreams and fears and insecurities. And that's why you can't manage people as if they're all in boxes. You know, when I went to Millwall, that was really tricky. It was tricky because of the brand and reputation. It was tricky because at that time, financially, it was going through a real crisis. And it was a family. You know, the people who work in Millwall are like a family. They've been there for years. They're absolutely dedicated and committed.

Presenter28:56

And this was a brand and a reputation that was synonymous with not just uh violence from the fans, but racist violence, racist chants from the fans.

Heather Rabbatts29:02

Feminist race

Heather Rabbatts29:04

It's absolutely and I Uh I've always felt that wherever you go you you talk to people and uh I did my first fans forum and there must have been about, I dunno, five hundred people and I could see that people were slightly worried on my behalf.

Heather Rabbatts29:20

And this guy, must have been, I don't know, six foot five, huge bloke, came up to me and he said, Have you got anything against white working class people?

Speaker 429:23

Uh

Presenter29:23

Uh

Speaker 429:23

Uh

Presenter29:23

Yeah.

Heather Rabbatts29:28

And I said, Absolutely not. You know, my dad came from round the corner from here. He just had the very good sense to marry a Jamaican woman. Have you got a problem with that?

Heather Rabbatts29:38

And he went.

Heather Rabbatts29:39

Well, actually ever? No, probably I haven't.

Heather Rabbatts29:42

And and I think, you know, you it's about standing your ground. And actually, of course, most of those people there were absolutely fantastic and fine. There were, of course, a couple of people who, you know, I would say were unacceptable in terms of their views that were held.

Heather Rabbatts29:56

But what what's really important is that the people in the room turn on them and say that's unacceptable. That's where you have to get to.

Presenter30:04

So you were at Mill Wall for four years and then went you're now at the Royal Opera House. So going from Yes, I'm glad you laugh. So going from the terraces to the dress circle, which do you prefer?

Heather Rabbatts30:10

But

Heather Rabbatts30:15

Oh, you know what? I think life is about uh living on both sides of that road. But, you know how you deal with talent, how you deal with agents, uh, how do you respond to your loyal ticket supporters but then want to vary ticket prices to get more people and different people through the doors? How do you become more inclusive? You'd be surprised. I often draw on my Millwall experience round the round the table at the Opera House.

Presenter30:39

Let's have some music, headlines.

Heather Rabbatts30:41

Well, this is a a piece of music that I was introduced to actually by my husband, who has a real eclectic music taste. But it's Rai Kuja and Ali Fakaturi, and it's this great combination of African voice and electric guitar.

Speaker 330:59

Ere yang a yer dumb again

Speaker 331:11

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 331:15

He never was happy that he was

Speaker 331:19

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Presenter31:24

That was Rye Kuder and Ali Farkatouri and Bond. So you're married now for the second time. Do did your husband prefer coming to see Millball or going to see the opera? He doesn't.

Heather Rabbatts31:34

I like the opera.

Heather Rabbatts31:35

Doesn't like the opera. Yes, he's more football than than opera, although he's a he's a lover of music, but uh not quite the style of the opera house yet.

Presenter31:43

And what about your sons? Because you have a stepson. I have a stepson.

Heather Rabbatts31:45

I have a stepson. I have a a stepson, Alex, who's just finishing uh his A levels and what's been great between my stepson and my son, although there's ten years' difference in age, is that they have become brothers and they do take care of each other. And that for me feels very important that, you know, w when I'm no longer here, I will have a sense that for Alex and Ewan

Heather Rabbatts32:08

Whenever they're in trouble, they always talk to each other, and that's lovely.

Presenter32:13

Uh you mentioned that you got to know your father a lot better after your mother died. What did he make of this incredible journey that your life has been to date?

Heather Rabbatts32:16

Yeah.

Heather Rabbatts32:22

I think he felt very proud of me. I think he was sort of bemused, really, that how this slightly wayward girl had ended up in these weird and wonderful places. The great thing about my parents, with all the difficulties and challenges that had gone on between them, is that they always were really supportive. They were always supportive. And when you lose both of your parents, I think you do feel that sense of, gosh, time to grow up. I have much more that sense of one's by oneself, despite having great family and friends. It's different. It's different.

Presenter32:32

Yeah.

Presenter33:01

Your mother, of course, had lived to see a a good degree of your success. Do you think, given that that life that she left behind in New York, do you did she take a possibly a different sort of pleasure in the vibrancy of your own life?

Heather Rabbatts33:02

Yes.

Heather Rabbatts33:06

Think g

Heather Rabbatts33:14

Yes, I think my for my mum it was a bit of living vicariously through me. She would keep all the clippings and and I would try and share those moments. You know, she had got herself into quite a difficult and dark place. So it was the sort of shining a light back in into the world and sort of say to her, look,

Heather Rabbatts33:34

Whatever you feel about what's happened in your life, you know, actually, I have gone on to do all these things and not least because of you.

Presenter33:43

Let's have your final piece then, Heather.

Heather Rabbatts33:45

Well, I think having some choral music and having a sense of one's own small part in this great universe of ours. And so uh it's Jan Garbreck and the Hilliard ensemble. So choral music with a wonderful saxophone.

Presenter34:30

That was Jan Garbarek with the Hilliard Ensemble and the opening of Officium. So, Heather, it's the books now. The Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and

Heather Rabbatts34:35

It's the

Heather Rabbatts34:39

And what? I'm a bit of an insomniac, so I read about, I don't know, two or three books simultaneously. But I usually always have a classic by the bed. And so I'm going to ha have the book that I've probably now read a hundred and ten times, but can I can always reread. It will be Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. And your luxury?

Heather Rabbatts34:57

I'm not allowed to take my spaniel above my little dog. No, no, no, no, no, no. Um I will take, therefore, a sort of solar powered digital photograph album. So and then I can look at all the pictures of all these wonderful people that I've known in my life.

Presenter35:00

Yeah.

Presenter35:12

Okay, headed up.

Heather Rabbatts35:13

That's curious. Andy, i if you had to pick just one of the eight disks to save?

Heather Rabbatts35:18

I think it would be Karim Bolly Ray because it would remind me of Today but has this great song about wherever life will take you.

Presenter35:27

Okay, K Syrah, Syrah is yours. Heather Robatz, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you very much.

Presenter36:12

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash radio four.