Kwame Kwei-Armah

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:33

My castaway this week is the actor, playwright, and director Kwame Kwayamar. Unusually, his creative output spans both high art and popular culture. There can't, after all, be many people who've written award-winning plays for the National Theatre and starred in BBC One's Casualty. He's just finished a stint as the artistic director of the World Festival of Black Arts in Senegal. His next posting is to the US. He's taking over a theatre in Baltimore. His life, both professional and personal, is about understanding, analysing, and celebrating his heritage. He says, I'm using art to be a catalyst for debate around themes that are pertinent to our communities and to our nation. Some people say, you know what, if I go to the theatre, if I go to the movies, if I turn on T V, I sort of want to tune out. You're very much asking people to tune in. I certainly am. I kind of think.

Kwame Kwei-Armah1:27

That

Kwame Kwei-Armah1:27

If I have been given a gift.

Kwame Kwei-Armah1:29

It is not necessarily to sit only within the bandwidth of entertainment, but to use it as a tool for something, to particularly in my work at the theatre, to bring in new audiences. That's both in terms of race and class.

Presenter1:46

And was that evident, for example, I'm thinking now at the National Theatre? Yeah. How did you did you manage to visibly change audiences there?

Kwame Kwei-Armah1:48

Take it.

Kwame Kwei-Armah1:54

Walking into the theatre, I could particularly look at at sections of the black community and I could see that they were coming because it was this guy from Casualty that they'd heard of, and in fact that they knew where the Royal Festival Hall was because they'd been to see concerts there, but didn't know where the National Theatre was, which was next door. And I was really pleased that teachers were bringing young inner-city children into the National Theatre, because after all, all of the institutions of this country belong to all of us, and all of us in the high arts desperately want it to be the popular arts.

Presenter2:26

Now, this fabulous name that you have, so musical and lyrical, kwame kwe ama, is not the name that you were born with. You were born Iain Roberts. And that is a brilliant illustration, I think, of how

Kwame Kwei-Armah2:33

And that

Presenter2:37

personal your art is to you. I mean, you know, part of this journey that you do on the page is also a journey that you've had in life. Can you now just briefly here explain why the name changed? When did it happen? Why did it happen?

Kwame Kwei-Armah2:48

I was about twelve and I was watching Roots, and it was a scene where Kunter Kente was being whipped about his name. What's your name? Kunter. No, Toby.

Kwame Kwei-Armah2:59

And it reduced me as a 12-year-old or even an 11-year-old to absolute tears. And I looked at my mother and I said, one day I'm going to change our name.

Kwame Kwei-Armah3:10

When I got about nineteen and I started getting political, I realized it was something I really did want to do. And um I was a very angry young man, angry at the Britain I was born into, angry at the way white society was treating me and my community, and angry that so little of my history had been taught to me and my peers.

Presenter3:29

We'll learn a lot more about that, I hope. But I I'm wondering on the day that you decided, you know, my name has changed, what wha what did you say to people? Were you working then? What what was

Kwame Kwei-Armah3:37

I was doing Carmen Jones in the West End at the time and I joined the company as Ian Roberts and then I kind of went away and I'd and I'd I'd done my stuff in Ghana and then I came back and I went, By the way, I'm I'm now Kwame Kwayama.

Kwame Kwei-Armah3:51

You could kind of see the kind of the eyes going again going r really. Um the only pain around it really, to be honest, was was uh announcing it to my mother and father.

Presenter4:02

And what was your mother's response?

Presenter4:05

Uh

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:05

Uh She was pained by it. Um you know, there's a kind of innate rejection when the very fundamental thing that you have given your child, they they reject. Um

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:19

And that was of great pain to me.

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:21

Um I think thank God I said it when I was twelve.

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:25

Because she remembered?

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:27

and she could locate the emotion that was going through me.

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:31

and she had great fear for me.

Presenter4:32

Uh

Presenter4:34

So much to talk about for now that we must begin with some music. Tell me about the first disc we're going to hear. What what is it and why have you chosen it?

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:40

Yeah.

Presenter4:41

19

Kwame Kwei-Armah4:42

In 1971, 72 my auntie came in from Trinidad and my parents are from the West Indian Island of Grenada and the big hit of that time was Lord Kitchener's switch into what was called Soca from Calypso to Soca and it was sugar boom boom. And it reminds me of the joy of my youth.

Kwame Kwei-Armah5:02

It reminds me of my parents dancing in the front room. Most of my theatre I call the theatre of my front room. And seeing my mum and my dad dance and my aunties and my uncles, it reminds me of of the sunshine of being the child of economic migrant.

Speaker 25:22

Or drink when you can add sugar.

Speaker 25:26

Darling, there is nothing sweeter.

Speaker 25:33

You make me bore

Speaker 25:37

Like that one tour

Presenter5:50

That was Lord Kitchener and Sugar Boomboom. You seem Kwame Kwaema as you sit here, not just somebody whose humour is very close to the surface, but a sort of thoughtful, balanced person. And yet you said a moment ago, as a young man, there was this bubbling anger. What was at the root of the anger as a young man?

Kwame Kwei-Armah6:08

It would be remiss of me not to say that we have travelled.

Kwame Kwei-Armah6:11

many miles in this country, but the London and the Britain that I grew up in was a very cold, cold place.

Kwame Kwei-Armah6:19

And I think it was the naked racism that I received as a young man.

Kwame Kwei-Armah6:24

My parents' generation kind of very much believed in the British status quo. So if you're being arrested by the police, you must have done something wrong. My parents didn't quite believe when I was 11 and tend that police officers would be kicking me in my back in the street as I walked down the street and saying, you know, come on, just give me a reason to arrest you. N-word. That happened to me. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then I'd go to school, and my teachers would speak to me and say things like, the reason why you can't speak properly is because the black mouth is not constructed to speak English in the or the tongue is too heavy. And I'd be getting this kind of stuff on a daily basis. It just made me.

Kwame Kwei-Armah7:05

Angry.

Presenter7:07

When you look at many of the young black boys who are in your situation now in London, as you say, we've come a long way, one would certainly hope in the instance of policing, but in terms of actually arti literally articulating their experience you know, here are you, the award winning writer, the actor, somebody who is brilliant at articulating that particular experience.

Speaker 17:16

This is

Presenter7:28

And there they are today, these young black men, apparently almost looking inwards, you know, retreating to a sort of patois in terms of the way they speak, alienating themselves. That must be an interesting thing m and maybe even a disturbing thing for you to watch, is it?

Kwame Kwei-Armah7:34

Retreating

Speaker 17:34

To us.

Kwame Kwei-Armah7:34

Sort of paths.

Speaker 17:35

So in terms of

Kwame Kwei-Armah7:35

Very good.

Kwame Kwei-Armah7:42

I I think that's brilliantly articulated. It's it's very difficult for me to look at the very thing that you describe and not be angry about it and not be challenged by it.

Presenter7:54

What my

Kwame Kwei-Armah7:56

That specific anger is at looking at some aspects and some sections of the black community and.

Kwame Kwei-Armah8:03

not be on them not being able to find a way of superseding their circumstance. One's hope and one's dreams for one's young is that they grab the opportunities that are before them and use that to elevate. And so I worry about an inward looking youth that is completely bombarded by notions of the black underclass and then wish to emulate them.

Presenter8:27

What about yourself as a role model then? Of course, you know, people in your position don't you I'm sure you didn't start out thinking, right, I'll be a role model for the black community. You know, you s you started out fashioning an interesting life for yourself and you've achieved a lot and you're

Speaker 18:33

Bha!

Speaker 18:35

Today

Presenter8:40

A person that people recognize and so on. Are you comfortable with being a role model? Because now you are.

Presenter8:45

Um

Kwame Kwei-Armah8:46

Actually, my mother raised me to have a sense of responsibility for myself and my family and for my community. And that was part of the DNA of our family. And so, insomuch that I am described as a role model, I it it doesn't bother me. I speak in prisons, I speak in schools, I go in and I was doing that before I was known. There is no burden of responsibility for me.

Presenter9:09

Let's have some music then. The second disc is is what, kwame?

Kwame Kwei-Armah9:12

Well, the the second one is Marvin Gaye's What's Going On. It's just one of those songs that I'll be seventy five and I'll be playing, because it inspired me.

Kwame Kwei-Armah9:23

I I I adore this song.

Speaker 29:29

There's too many of you to cry.

Speaker 29:35

Brother, brother, brother

Speaker 29:39

There's far too many of you die

Speaker 19:49

To bring some love in here today

Presenter9:56

That was Marvin Gay and What's Going On? So, Kwame Kwaan Ma, you were born in nineteen sixty six in South Hall in West London. You you described uh the music, the the that Lord Kitchener, the first track that we heard today. That was something that we played at home. What what was the atmosphere in the house?

Kwame Kwei-Armah10:10

My home was so warm, so filled with life and noise and difference. I on a Sunday my mother would have church you know, church service would be in the house and then and then w we'd cook for

Presenter10:24

The church service would be in the house.

Kwame Kwei-Armah10:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'd have church in the house at sometimes before before they got the property. So there'd be like, I don't know, twenty, thirty people in our house. But it wasn't a big No, not at all. It was a kind of three bedroom, you know, terraced in West London. You know, so we'd kinda have that and we'd all be having to cook for twenty or thirty. And then after they'd finished eating, then my dad's crew would come in and then they'd be drinking white rum and playing calypso.

Presenter10:50

The

Kwame Kwei-Armah10:51

So they weren't the church crew. No, no, they were not the church crew. So the church crew kind of left and then in comes my dad's crowd and and I loved hearing them talk about their youth and talk about Grenada.

Presenter10:51

That's live.

Presenter10:52

Yeah, they would

Presenter10:54

Cruise, and the church could kind of

Kwame Kwei-Armah11:03

And my memory of it was just this kind of citadel to love and joy and remembrance. Tell me about your mother then. What was she like?

Kwame Kwei-Armah11:12

Uh my mother is um still is, she died six years ago, and uh

Kwame Kwei-Armah11:16

My mother still is to this day my ultimate role model.

Kwame Kwei-Armah11:21

She was a magnificent woman.

Kwame Kwei-Armah11:23

She was a very hard working woman, a very religious woman.

Kwame Kwei-Armah11:27

And she believed totally and utterly in education. So to that end, she sent all of her children. I mean, my mother probably lived here all of their life, but my mother was the active partner in this. That she sent all of her children to fee-paying schools because she felt that her pound was her only form of accountability. In order to do that, she was a nanny in the day, she was an auxiliary nurse in the night. So on a Friday, she would work 24 hours. On a Sunday into Monday, she'd work 24 hours. She seldom bought anything for herself, like dresses and stuff, because all of her money was saving to put her children through private education.

Presenter12:04

Did she tell you then? Did she talk to you about it? Did she say what she

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:07

Oh yeah.

Presenter12:07

Expected.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:08

Uh

Presenter12:08

Uh

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:08

Yes, totally and utterly.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:10

Um

Presenter12:11

Uh

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:11

I mean, many of her contemporaries.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:14

laughed at her. Laughed at her aspiration. Laughed at her aspiration. You know, you know, you're wasting your money sending your children to private schools. Do you think you're better than us, Steve? So she was somewhat vilified by her peers.

Presenter12:18

But you know.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:28

For that. And so I felt a keen sense of responsibility. I can't let you down.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:35

There's something about being a Caribbean woman, there is something about the Caribbean female spirit that I think I understand that my mother would go there are many things that I can't achieve in my life. There are many dreams that I would if I were not a woman, if I were not black.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:51

But actually I'm going to give them to you.

Kwame Kwei-Armah12:54

And I accepted them.

Presenter12:56

Let's have some more music, Kwame. We're uh looking at disc number three now. What is it?

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:00

I mean, it's rather apt, I think. It's Stevie Wonder, and it comes from his song Superwoman, which.

Presenter13:05

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:06

Which yeah. Um

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:08

Stevie Wonder

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:10

Taught me.

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:12

That music.

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:13

is a gift from God.

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:15

You know, a lot of the soul and the RB that was coming out of America in the seventies and eighties was about, you know.

Kwame Kwei-Armah13:24

Shaking your hips or blah blah blah, and Stevie put intelligent lyrics on beautiful melodies.

Speaker 213:32

Reflect love's pain.

Speaker 213:41

When the winter came, you were not around.

Speaker 213:47

Through the bitter winds love could not be found.

Speaker 213:52

Where were you when I needed you last winter?

Presenter14:01

That was Stevie Wonder and Superwoman. So, Kwame Koyama, you were talking about going to school, being sent to um a fee-paying school, as indeed were your siblings.

Kwame Kwei-Armah14:08

That's

Presenter14:11

Your parents bought their house as well, is that right?

Kwame Kwei-Armah14:14

Yes, absolutely. Uh absolutely. I I I I think when my mother and father first got together they rented a a a room. But my mother was very adamant that they should own their house.

Presenter14:26

And what sort of character was your father? I mean, w we it's interesting to hear a lot about your mother'cause she was obviously fascinating, but your father you haven't said so much about.

Kwame Kwei-Armah14:32

Um d you know, people often say that and I feel really bad. Um my father was is I mean he's still alive very much a man of his era.

Kwame Kwei-Armah14:44

You know, West Indians of of that generation are are fairly Victorian. With his friends he was tremendously vibrant and and fun. I think that was partly why I used to like sitting in the front room, because I would see him really enjoying himself. But with us, growing up, he was, you know, he was quite a a sober man. I mean, my mother's personality was a huge personality, so she kind of filled the space. My father I learnt to love as I got older.

Kwame Kwei-Armah15:11

My mother I loved instantly, in the way that you do when someone showers you with more love than than than you quite know how to deal with.

Presenter15:21

And so there you were being sent to private school. Y your parents had a a mortgage, both things that would have marked them out as different, I'm imagining, from the rest of your community. Did you feel a sense that you didn't want to be different, or did you quite enjoy the differences?

Kwame Kwei-Armah15:29

Hmm.

Kwame Kwei-Armah15:36

Oh, I certainly didn't enjoy. I mean, the other thing to say at the time is that my mother sent me to the Salvation Army. So even though we had church service in my house, she sent me there because they would teach you to play a musical instrument. So it meant that I'd be walking down the street in the week in my bright red blazer. And then on a Sunday, I'd be walking through the streets of South in my Salvation Army hat and uniform, banging a bass drum, walking down the high street. I mean, you can imagine. I was like a laughing stock. So were you furious at your mother? No, no, not at all. My home life was magnificent. And so, yeah, so no, I wasn't angry at all.

Presenter16:14

And so there was your mother working I mean, literally as you describe it day and night through certain periods of her life, and then she had a stroke. How old was she when she had her stroke?

Kwame Kwei-Armah16:18

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah16:24

Um, she would have been about thirty five.

Presenter16:27

Very young. Yeah. So do you think the pressure that she'd put herself under was a contributing factor to to what happened?

Kwame Kwei-Armah16:34

I imagine so. Yeah. I I imagine Yeah.

Presenter16:36

Uh

Kwame Kwei-Armah16:37

I mean, not that that stopped her, because when she recovered about six months later, she went right back into into well, she had to because there were there were bills to pay. But the thing that I

Presenter16:48

W was there a point at which y you and the rest of the family worried that she wouldn't recover?

Kwame Kwei-Armah16:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly, certainly.

Kwame Kwei-Armah16:55

And as the eldest son of an economic migrant family, it's very clear that you have your responsibilities. So my responsibility was to cook.

Kwame Kwei-Armah17:03

And so I would cook on a Saturday. And this is family cooking. Family cooking. Right. My brother Paul would cook on a Sunday.

Presenter17:06

Right.

Kwame Kwei-Armah17:10

Probably from the age of about seven I would go to the market, do the shopping. It's it's really easy now as an adult to say, Oh God, it was a hard period. My memory of it was simply that we had to get on and do the things that we had to do.

Presenter17:24

For now, let's have some music then, Kwame.

Presenter17:27

Disc number four.

Kwame Kwei-Armah17:29

Again, it it springs out of my house. My elder sister, Mary, came to live with us, and she had a bedroom upstairs, my bedroom was downstairs, and she would play reggae music upstairs, and of course she's my older sister, so I couldn't bear her. And she would play Bob Marley, and I hated Bob Marley just'cause she liked Bob Marley.

Kwame Kwei-Armah17:46

I got to about nineteen and I discovered him.

Kwame Kwei-Armah17:49

And it was like I was hit by a

Speaker 217:53

So much trouble in the world.

Speaker 217:59

Somebody dropping in the wild

Speaker 218:07

Place my hands this morning.

Speaker 218:13

Your sun is on the rise once again.

Speaker 218:19

We heard it in the cool

Presenter18:22

That was Bob Marley and So Much Trouble in the World. People will know, Kwame, that you have a fabulous voice because they would have um seen you in the comic relief show that that was a sort of it was a sing-off, it was a competition and and and you were I mean uh I think most people thought you should have been the winner, but it ended up you weren't the winner. You you were singing there through that Bob Marley track. You you spent a lot of your young life trying to professionally be a singer.

Speaker 118:37

And it's

Kwame Kwei-Armah18:45

Yeah, that was. I mean, before I was an actor, that was my dream. That was totally and utterly what I wanted to be.

Presenter18:51

What did your mum I mean you know there there she was, she'd given you a very very good education? I'm sure she was proud you could sing, but did she want you to be a singer?

Kwame Kwei-Armah18:56

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah18:59

My mother wanted me to be a lawyer, um, is what she wanted me to be.

Presenter19:02

But you decided you didn't want to be a singer. You decided you wanted to pursue with this great voice. You wanted to be a singer.

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:04

Be not.

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:07

Yeah, well

Presenter19:08

What happened?

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:09

Well, I I mean God, I you know, I kind of got a a deal with

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:14

Sony and then kind of had a deal with East West New York and East West Los Angeles and this kind of thing. Oh, every time, you know, every time it felt really, it was, you know, I'd be played on the radio and people would be like, this is the next best thing, etc., etc., etc. And then every time, just as we were about to do the final breakthrough, something would happen.

Speaker 119:23

Every

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:37

And it broke my heart.

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:38

And I woke up one day and I said,

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:41

It's not going to happen.

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:43

And I think if I continue I'm going to die.

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:47

'Cause I was already a father, I was already married.

Kwame Kwei-Armah19:49

I was like, I don't think I can I can do this any more and never sung again until actually uh properly until Celebrity Fame Academy.

Presenter19:59

Which was in 2003. Was that difficult then to go and do that? Because that was sort of showing people that you had that talent.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:01

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:05

No, because

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:07

I looked upon it as a blessing that it was quite fun.

Presenter20:09

Let's have some more music now then, Kwame.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:11

Well, recently I was appointed Artistic Director of the World Festival of Black Arts and Culture in Dakar. Its raison d'être was to was to place African art

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:21

In in the mainstream to say we stand upon millennia of of great art. For me it was the job.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:30

of my generation, that I could could be there.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:34

Working with 6,000 of the best artists of the world. It was.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:40

The best job of my life.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:42

The next song is is called I'm a Levi by Ijaman, My Family Were Out There.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:48

And we went to this concert and my from my five year old to my eighteen year old and my twins in between and my wife and we and my cousin and we stood there.

Kwame Kwei-Armah20:59

Just listening to this spiritual music at a festival that I was running.

Kwame Kwei-Armah21:06

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah21:06

It will stay with me for the rest of my life.

Speaker 221:12

As a morning

Speaker 221:18

Holy and beautiful thy eyes

Speaker 221:21

There's nothing

Speaker 221:24

This ain't

Speaker 221:28

Like an EJ

Speaker 221:29

Uh yeah, just

Speaker 221:32

They even wonder why and how I'm looking so well.

Presenter21:38

Ida Mam and I'm a Levi. So it's the end of the 90s, coming into the year 2000. Everyone knows your face because they know you as Finn Newton on Casualty. You were at one point voted most popular man on TV? Something manner. Something like that. Something like that. And yet you have this secret life. Because in 2001, you'd written the play in 1999, but in 2001, you win. I mean, it's a very big prize, £50,000 prize for new writers for your play A Bitter Herb. Did you?

Kwame Kwei-Armah21:52

Something man.

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:06

Yeah.

Presenter22:07

Did people that you work with at that time know that you were also writing and seriously writing?

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:12

No.

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:14

I've found, I think, throughout my life in Britain, we

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:18

We haven't necessarily always taken to people who do more than one thing.

Speaker 222:22

And

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:23

And so when I was a singer, I wouldn't tell people I was an actor. When I was an actor, I wouldn't tell people I was a writer, and when I was a writer etcetera, et cetera, et cetera. But when Bitter Herb came out, and as you said, I was doing casualty at the time, then it became more difficult.

Speaker 222:29

Etc.

Presenter22:29

Uh

Presenter22:35

And also a father of three, by the way.

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:36

Yes, I was. I was a father.

Presenter22:38

Did you see much of your kids? Do you say have you got your mother's energy? Are you sort of somebody who's you're powered by batteries that

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:39

Yes.

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:42

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:44

Uh

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:45

Okay.

Presenter22:45

Momachai

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:45

I am my mother's child in that way. I think all of her children are that way.

Presenter22:51

What did your mother think when she saw you on casualty there?

Kwame Kwei-Armah22:53

She absolutely loved it. My aunties would would say to me, So, darling, are you still acting? And so I'd kind of go, Yes, auntie, thank you and they'd kind of look at me and go, Okay, darling, persevere, you know, one day you're going to make it.

Kwame Kwei-Armah23:07

And then I got casualty. And my aunties would run up to me and she'd go, My darling God, you've made it. All you've got to do is get into EastEnders now and you'll be really famous.

Kwame Kwei-Armah23:18

And so for my mother, it really wasn't until that point, which is a long time after sending me to school, that actually I became someone that all of her peers would run up to in the street and say, Oh, we're so proud of him, which was magnificent for her.

Presenter23:35

But did you feel I mean, obviously you were working really hard, but did you feel with your acting work that and with Casualty in particular that you were going through the motions, that that was the thing that was putting bread on the table?

Presenter23:45

I didn't necessarily feel

Kwame Kwei-Armah23:46

While I was going through the motions, but I I certainly knew that this wasn't the only thing that I wanted to do.

Kwame Kwei-Armah23:53

I became a a writer.

Kwame Kwei-Armah23:56

Because I I was complaining too much as an actor.

Kwame Kwei-Armah24:00

I hate complaining. I hate kind of sitting there having to moan, Oh, these scripts are bad, aren't they? Oh god, there's not enough parts for black actors Oh, they're not telling us our stories and and and I'm a bit like if it's not there then do it. Do it yourself. I feel that it's my job to to take the ball by the horn.

Presenter24:19

Time for some more music then, Kwame. What's next?

Kwame Kwei-Armah24:22

It's it's part of the thing that that inspired me to use art as a catalyst for debate, to use art as a as a catalyst to enlighten. Public Enemy came into my life, the rap band Public Enemy. Public Enemy said

Kwame Kwei-Armah24:37

Fight the power.

Kwame Kwei-Armah24:39

And I decided to do that.

Speaker 224:41

89 the number of sona

Speaker 224:45

Sound of the fucking drummer, music hittin' your heart, cause I know you got souls! Listen if you're missing y'all, swinging while I'm singing, giving what you're getting, knowing what I know in while the black man's sweating, in the rhythm I'm rolling. Gotta give us what we want, gotta give us what we need. Our freedom of feet is freedom of death. We gotta fight the powers that be.

Speaker 225:09

Face the power!

Presenter25:10

That was Public Enemy and Fight the Power. So, Kwame Koyama, you were writer-in-residence at the Bristol Old Vic, and then in May 2003, your first play opened at the National Theatre. It got scorchingly good reviews. The Guardian, which gave it five stars, said Koyama writes exquisitely in a language that is peppery, poetic, and full of wit. That must have felt nice.

Kwame Kwei-Armah25:33

It did. You read that review, did you? I did. I I in fact I've read three reviews of my plays and and the first three that came out for Elmina um really meant the world to me.

Kwame Kwei-Armah25:46

Because I was really nervous at the time because Celebrity Fame Academy had just kind of happened. And people weren't going, wait a minute. So from just.

Presenter25:54

It doesn't just fit, does it?

Kwame Kwei-Armah25:54

It doesn't fit from just being this actor in the kind of nice black ambulance man to oh oh, he can sing to then oh, and he's got to play at the National Theatre and so there was a slight sense of well it's going to be rubbish'cause he can't do all of those things well and so when it when it came out and it was a success, it was a great relief.

Presenter26:14

Were your family watching on the first night did they come to the theatre?

Kwame Kwei-Armah26:17

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah26:21

The National Theatre, they did something on the opening night of Elmina that made a huge difference. They realized that

Kwame Kwei-Armah26:28

The audience for the first night when the critics were going to be there was going to be 99% white.

Kwame Kwei-Armah26:34

And much of the humour and the gags that was in the play would just slightly go over their head because it was written a lot in patois.

Kwame Kwei-Armah26:41

Actually what happens is if some people get the gag, you go, oh, that was supposed to be funny and you understand that it was funny. So they gave me 50 tickets and said, you know, bring who you want. You know, not being prescriptive, but, you know, I think we need a bigger black audience so that everybody gets it. And I could see that when sometimes when the white audience weren't quite getting it, that the black audience was rolling up. And so it kind of engendered this sense of warmth in the room.

Presenter27:09

Yeah, literally changed the temperature. Changed the temperature. Yeah. So what's happened to the acting parts?'Cause I I mean I'm I'm wondering of course if if directors and writers think, well, you know, there yeah, he won the Evening Standard Award, he won that award, he got that review, I'm not sure I want him in you know, he's he's too much trouble'cause he knows the tricks, he knows the gig. I don't really want this actor who's also a writer and director to be in my play or on my T V show or in my movie.

Kwame Kwei-Armah27:10

It changed the

Speaker 127:19

Only one.

Kwame Kwei-Armah27:31

I um I I think I've suffered from that a little bit. Actually, I I did this movie, I don't know, about five years ago. The director was lovely and and he loved what I did in it and it came out, I got lovely reviews for what I did in it, and we went

Presenter27:34

B

Kwame Kwei-Armah27:44

To the Premier, and he said, Can I confess, I actually didn't know who you were when I cast you, and if I did, I wouldn't have. And I'm so glad. That I did.

Presenter27:54

I I'm wondering you said in two thousand eight, you you spoke in in an interview about the the black brain drain to America of performers and now we know, as I said in the introduction, you're heading off to Baltimore. Do you feel that you will you will have an easier time with work and the kind of work you want to do over in the States than you do have here?

Kwame Kwei-Armah28:12

I don't know. And I think it w again it would be slightly remiss of me, someone of colour who's been allowed to do all of the things that I have been allowed to do in this country, to somehow say, No, I'm going off to America because there I can live and and so I I have taken the job as artistic director of Centre Stage because I think that it's going to allow me to push myself. I'm going bringing all of the wonderful skills of having being reared in the heat of the artistic capital of the world, London. And actually it's a wonderful challenge to kind of go into a city and say, actually I want to help, not by myself, define this this city through art.

Presenter28:52

Let's have some more music then, Commi. What's next?

Kwame Kwei-Armah28:55

As I've I've I've expressed, my mother is

Kwame Kwei-Armah28:59

The center of my world.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:00

And um when she died in 2005.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:04

your world collapses and um

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:07

And mine did.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:09

Actually.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:10

I mean I don't want to make light of it.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:13

But it was a big year. I got married.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:15

My son.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:17

Was born and my mother died.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:20

I think I was probably as close to having a nervous breakdown as

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:24

as I've probably got to in my life.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:26

I I struggle when I say that because I don't want to trivialize it.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:30

I'd always prepared myself, I thought. My mother and I had talked about her dying.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:35

Many years before.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:37

in order to kind of prep me for it.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:39

But of course there's no amount of talking. This song

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:42

Um

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:44

Donnie McClurkin.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:45

The essence of it is that even though you know you are down.

Kwame Kwei-Armah29:50

You can get back up.

Speaker 229:52

Say now we fall down But we get a bit better

Speaker 230:00

Once we get up we fall

Speaker 230:06

Hold my mind back, we get back to the forgiven.

Speaker 230:10

For a single sailor.

Speaker 130:14

Oh

Speaker 230:19

But we can't stay there.

Presenter30:22

That was Donnie McClurkin and We Fall Down. You were saying, Kwame Kwaema, that when you pursued your African identity and you said to your mother that you were going to to change your name, one of the things that sh you said she felt you said she had great fear for me. A father of four, yourself, for your children's lives, for what lies ahead for them. Are there things that you that you fear?

Kwame Kwei-Armah30:45

Yes, yes, very much so.

Kwame Kwei-Armah30:48

I think all we can do as parents is create a loving

Kwame Kwei-Armah30:53

home that will help them negotiate the travails.

Kwame Kwei-Armah30:59

It's it's hard for young people.

Presenter31:01

And what about I'm imagining you're going because you're going to Baltimore, you're going quite soon.

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:04

Doing quite

Presenter31:05

You're married now for the second time. Will you be parenting at a distance from some of your kids? No, are they all

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:07

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:10

So now they're coming. We're relocating.

Presenter31:12

What do you think?

Presenter31:13

Are you? So all four of your kids are.

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:14

Yeah, my children are just going to finish their G C S C's and then my twins rather and then they're going to come. My eldest boy, um, we're applying for universities now. We're I mean it's yeah, an A R E and my wife. Yeah, we're we're it's a family gig.

Presenter31:29

Okay. I mean, I I do want to ask you what your wife thinks of you moving your halfway around the world, but it maybe isn't my business. Is she quite happy about it?

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:33

Yeah.

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:35

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter31:36

This is

Kwame Kwei-Armah31:40

We have friends there and and we really like the city.

Presenter31:44

And you mentioned you spoke a moment ago about your mother dying, you getting married, your child being bor a child being born all in the same year. What about

Speaker 131:52

But

Speaker 131:52

Water.

Presenter31:54

You know, when you have a mother that's as central as your mother was.

Presenter31:58

Does that sometimes make other women in your life have a difficult relationship with you? Or you with them?

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:04

I I I don't know. Um I'm not sure. I I

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:08

I think that

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:10

My mother gave me so much love and all of her children so much love that hopefully that means that I have a a a heart that is capable of of making my partner feel wanted.

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:24

Desired.

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:26

Love.

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:27

Not gonna appreciate

Presenter32:27

Yeah.

Presenter32:28

Not too much of a mummy's boy. Then that was really what I was getting at. You're not too much of a mummy boy.

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:31

I suppose that the reason why I gave you that very long answer, long-winded answer, is that uh I think any woman that's had anything to do with me has known that that my mother is a central part of my life and um and and to not be feel that there is any competition in it, um, you have to understand that I am a mummy's boy and that's part of the gig.

Presenter32:52

For now is the final track. What's your final track today?

Kwame Kwei-Armah32:56

I look back at my selection and I thought there's not enough dancing here. And I love dancing and I love life. And the dominant band of my youth was Earth, Wind and Fire. And so yeah, I've gone to Earth, Wind and Fire's Running as my final track, because I think on the island I want to feel high, I'll want to dance, and this is a brilliant track to do it to.

Presenter33:47

That was Earth, Wind, and Fire and Runnin'. So then, Kwame, I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. You're allowed to take a book, too. What are you going to take?

Kwame Kwei-Armah33:53

Moodle

Kwame Kwei-Armah33:55

The Complete Works of August Wilson.

Kwame Kwei-Armah33:58

Um he was the playwright that showed me that I could

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:02

Still be black.

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:04

Unsuccessful.

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:05

Just by reading his plays, his ten-play cycle, describing the life of African Americans through the twentieth century.

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:13

And I would want that.

Presenter34:15

Okay, that is yours. And a luxury, too.

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:19

My laptop. Now I know I can't do the Internet. I know I can't do all of that stuff. But I'd need to write. I'd need to be able to put my feelings down. So the word processing part of my laptop I I'd I would have to have.

Presenter34:32

Right, I'm going to give you I mean a laptop doesn't sit well with me. I'm going to give you a very basic word processor. That's your lot. Fine.

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:39

Black Sabna.

Presenter34:39

Okay.

Presenter34:40

I'll accept them. It's yours. And if you had to pick just one of the eight discs here today, which one would you pick?

Kwame Kwei-Armah34:47

That's hard, as you'd imagine it would be. Uh and I'm gonna have to go public enemy fight the power.

Presenter34:53

It's yours. Kwame Kwema, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Presenter35:39

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website: bbc.co. uk slash radio four.