Lawrence Dallaglio

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Laurence Delalio. A former England rugby captain, his life both on the pitch and off has been marked by high drama, deep tragedy, and great triumph. He is far from your run of the mill international sporting legend. After all, there can't be many flankers who've sung in a Vita in the West End, or recorded at Abbey Road with Tina Turner. But the fun he had as a youngster was brought to an abrupt end at sixteen, when his only sister was killed in the Marchioness disaster on the Thames. Her death blew his family apart, and then reshaped his future, transforming him, he says, into a driven individual. I was just a man on a mission, and unfortunately, that hasn't really stopped. Is it important to you, Laurence Delalio, to be a man on a mission and to be in control of that mission?

Lawrence Dallaglio1:20

Yes, I think it is. You know, clearly everyone has unfortunate things that happen in their life. I think for me, as you mentioned, losing my sister was devastating coming from an Italian

Presenter1:20

Thank you.

Lawrence Dallaglio1:32

Irish English family, uh where the family was really at the heart of everything we did, uh you know, to lose uh a quarter of that family, my sister, was difficult for all of us. And uh, you know, it just made me um more determined to do something to bring my parents together, I guess. You know, I'm not very good at looking backwards very much, um, which is it's a pleasure to be on the show because uh this has given me a chance to look backwards and have a look at some uh memories and songs from um you know from my past.

Presenter1:56

Pills then.

Presenter2:01

And eighty five caps for England, three tours you did with the Lions. You you led your club side your rugby union club side Wasps to victory five times in in the Premiership. An incredible career, of course. Is there a single moment that stands out as a highlight of your working life?

Lawrence Dallaglio2:06

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio2:09

Then

Lawrence Dallaglio2:16

Well I think when I first took up rugby I took it up for not for sporting reasons, if that makes sense, because I needed something to grab onto. Rugby wasn't a job, it was just a hobby. In fact you used to have to pay to play and I think it it would be hard to pinpoint one particular moment. I mean everyone says oh it must be the World Cup. Yeah that's what I was thinking. But playing for England for the first time was a huge joy.

Presenter2:37

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Lawrence Dallaglio2:42

Of course, my mother, who's sadly not with us, I never forget, I came off the bench for England in 1995 and she

Lawrence Dallaglio2:49

She went straight up to the England coach, Jack Rowe, after the game, and said, well, it's perfectly clear what you need to do. You need to get him in the team next week. He needs to start. And of course, Jack Rao looked down at her and said, sorry, who are you?

Lawrence Dallaglio3:02

She introduced herself as Eileen Delalia and of course I was selected for England the following week so when I came back with the news she said well it was all down to her. Yeah, she's probably right. She she's absolutely right.

Presenter3:09

Yeah.

Presenter3:12

That England rose that you played with for so many years on your chest. I can't imagine that your grandparents in their fruit and veg stall in Turin had a rose like that among the produce there. It's an incredible journey in just two generations that this amalgamation of immigrants from Ireland and from Italy had made.

Lawrence Dallaglio3:29

Yeah, absolutely. I mean having a father who's first generation Italian and having a mother who is uh from Irish roots that makes you a very dangerous Englishman because it makes you an Englishman who's not afraid to display his emotion. Yes. And there's quite a few that are. I I perhaps sometimes that Latin exuberance displayed itself on the field, particularly with my conversations with the referees, but

Presenter3:50

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio3:51

You know, I was passionate and and not afraid to show it.

Presenter3:53

It's it's two years since you retire two and a bit years since you retired fr from rugby. We're going to talk a lot about this incredible, vivid life that you have led, but I'm wondering, just briefly, what have you been doing in in?

Lawrence Dallaglio3:56

Yeah.

Presenter4:03

Those two you.

Lawrence Dallaglio4:03

Yeah.

Presenter4:04

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio4:05

Astonishingly and very sadly, the end of my rugby career sort of coincided with the passing of my mother. I retired in May 2008 and my mum, Eileen, passed away in December of 2008. So I've set up the Delalio Foundation, a charity that supports cancer research and have cycled all around Europe. I'm still involved in rugby a little bit. I've not really stood still.

Speaker 34:17

Yeah.

Presenter4:17

So

Presenter4:29

Let's have some music then, Lawrence. What are we going to hear first off today?

Lawrence Dallaglio4:32

Well, first off is a song by Eddie Grant, Walking on Sunshine. Why have you chosen this?

Presenter4:37

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio4:38

It's a very uplifting song. When I left home I moved to Labbrock Grove in West London. I used to walk down the hill towards the station and there's a lovely uh shop which I think is still there called Dub Records and this song used to pump out quite a lot. It's very special to me.

Speaker 34:53

Looking through the morning dew

Speaker 34:57

The smoking mountains, nothing new

Speaker 35:01

Lead me to the mountain tawa

Speaker 35:05

And we'll work on till it's time to stop, oh baby.

Speaker 35:09

Your mind, you're mine, you're

Speaker 35:13

Walking on sunshine

Presenter5:18

Uh

Speaker 35:18

I'll tell you that you're doing fine.

Presenter5:21

What? That was Eddie Grant and Walking on the Sunshine and memories for you, Lawrence DeLelli, of walking down Ladbroke Grove in West London with the sun shining and that music pumping out of the DJ's shop there. There are certain aspects of being a competitive sportsman that are of course incredibly demanding. Most people could never meet them by a long stretch. And yet there are some comforting certainties. You know what your job is. You know, you go out there at each match.

Speaker 25:41

Yeah.

Presenter5:47

And you win. That is the purpose. When that's taken away from you, does it make life a bit more uncertain?

Lawrence Dallaglio5:53

Everyone thinks that rugby is this ultimate team game, which it is. You know, it's gladiatorial, as my mother in law used to say. And it is the ultimate team game because if you don't do your job, I can't do mine. But actually, great teams are made up of great individuals as well.

Lawrence Dallaglio6:10

I mean the reason we won the World Cup quite simply in 2003 is because out of 15 or so guys I think we had eight or ten who were without doubt the best players in the world at that time. So yes you have to focus as a team but also as an individual it's quite important to be very much part of that. I think the biggest challenge as a sportsman is that you are given a piece of paper at the beginning of each week and everything is kind of mapped out for you. And then when you finish playing you've got a blank sheet of paper. That is a challenge. I had to come to terms with retiring which is you know something that all sportsmen have to do but

Presenter6:44

Yes, and you're doing that before you're even forty, you're retiring. That's a strange place in your life to be retiring.

Lawrence Dallaglio6:47

But to be honest, I haven't really worried. I didn't really worry too much about retirement because as much as I loved rugby and trust me, it became my life. I became obsessed, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that. It actually got in the way of quite a few things. Got in the way of enjoying your life because it's just this incredible roller coaster of emotions, you know. And it stopped me from doing so many things that I've now slowly finding out.

Presenter7:11

Now let's talk about then a little bit about your background. Born in nineteen seventy two, brought up in Barnes in what you yourself have have described as a modest three bedroom flat in Barnes in West London. But what was not typical about it though was that as you've described it, the Irish Italian roots. Was there a lot of talk? Was there a lot of passion in the household when you were growing up?

Speaker 27:20

In both.

Lawrence Dallaglio7:26

There

Lawrence Dallaglio7:29

Well, I mean it sounds like you know, if you say Barnes, you think of sort of um fairly middle class, well off people, you know. I mean, you know, my mother came from the East End of London. She you know, she was out to work at the age of thirteen and I think she just decided, you know, coming from a family of ten children, she just wanted to better herself.

Presenter7:34

No, I mean

Presenter7:44

And your father came from northern Italy. How did he end up in Britain?

Lawrence Dallaglio7:48

He came from a beautiful place in Emilia Romania called Guastala, and quite close to Parma, famous for balsamic vinegar and Ferraris and all the wonderful things. All the good things in life. All the good things in life. He decided he wanted to learn English, and the only way to do that was to arrive in England. He did it via France and picked up French in a few months, which is sickening, really. And then when he landed in England, he worked in a Spanish restaurant in a kitchen where everyone spoke Spanish. So within six months, he spoke fluent Spanish as well. He came over here as a 22-year-old.

Presenter7:57

All the good things in life.

Lawrence Dallaglio8:21

I think worked as a waiter and then ended up

Lawrence Dallaglio8:24

Being general manager of the Savoy, London Metropolitan, and all these wonderful hotels. Amazing.

Presenter8:27

Amazing. So quite a rapid rise. He was driven. The the the drive is on him.

Lawrence Dallaglio8:30

I think it comes from that, you know, that ability to just knuckle down and work hard. And obviously, met my mother pretty soon after arriving here.

Presenter8:38

Now, here's the thing. When I was looking at your biography, your parents met in the early 60s, but they didn't get married until the late 60s. Was it do you know why that was?

Lawrence Dallaglio8:45

Um

Lawrence Dallaglio8:47

Without doing him as a disservice, he's a northern Italian and probably took it took a bit of time to settle down. I think it's that it I could I could create something else, but I think that's probably the truth.

Presenter8:52

Is that it? Okay, I'm sure.

Presenter8:57

Okay, I've got you. Do you think did your mum have to tame him? Do you think?

Lawrence Dallaglio9:00

Yes, no doubt about it.

Presenter9:01

This

Lawrence Dallaglio9:02

Yeah, and then I think she eventually said, Right, well, if you don't put your finger out, you know, I'll be I'll be off so uh No, they I mean, you know, they got married and

Lawrence Dallaglio9:10

And pretty soon afterwards, um, you know, my sister was born in'sixty nine.

Presenter9:14

Yeah. Okay, let's have some more music then, Lawrence. What are we gonna hear now?

Lawrence Dallaglio9:17

Michael Jackson, I don't think I could have a top eight without including something from Michael Jackson. Uh the the song is entitled Don't Stop Till You Get Enough and uh I certainly don't seem to have a stop button, so uh fits in well.

Speaker 39:39

Keep it on the wall of post office.

Speaker 39:42

Do you care enough? Take my wall.

Speaker 39:47

Oh no!

Speaker 39:51

I don't know.

Presenter9:57

That was Michael Jackson and Don't Stop Till You Get Enough. You said when you were at school at Lawrence as a little boy y you loved school because of the fun and the sport and the lessons kind of spoiled the party.

Lawrence Dallaglio10:09

Yeah, I don't think I'd be on my own in that in that assessment. No, no, I mean I I um you know, I was in no hurry to grow up. You know, I used to just literally go there just to have fun.

Presenter10:11

Assessment.

Presenter10:17

And and school I'm thinking of I'm thinking of your mum and dad's hallway in that house in Barnes. Was it just littered with sort of uh interestingly for you actually football boots. It wasn't rugby boots first. You played football, your sister was this keen dance, the ballet bags and all that sort of stuff. Was it that kind of house?

Lawrence Dallaglio10:30

You know, my parents made a very conscious decision to take us out of the state system and put us in a private school and and and obviously that comes with its with its problems in terms of the cost. So m my mum was having to do so many different jobs and you know there was

Presenter10:45

Did she had more than one job?

Lawrence Dallaglio10:46

Oh, absolutely. Cleaning. She used to have to rent out rooms to sort of pay for the school fees, so often I'd come back and not really have a room.

Presenter10:49

Okay.

Lawrence Dallaglio10:53

I'll be sleeping in the garage or sleeping somewhere in the sitting room because, you know, needs must.

Presenter10:59

And you were sent to, I mean, a terribly posh and proper public school, the very famous Catholic boarding school, Ampleforth, in North Yorkshire. What what age were you when you went there?

Lawrence Dallaglio11:03

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio11:05

What is Google?

Lawrence Dallaglio11:08

I was 13 and my mum was. She said she had a vision from God that I had to go to this school. I mean, it's beautiful, beautiful school.

Presenter11:16

Did she say that to you at the time?

Lawrence Dallaglio11:18

Yeah, she did, yeah, yeah. And and I remember when she walked in to see the headmaster at Kings House School, which was my prep school, uh she said that, you know, I'd like my son to go to Ampleforth, um, and uh the headmaster said, Well, it's out of the question, you know, he's not he's not clever enough, you know, he needs at least sixty five percent pass mark.

Lawrence Dallaglio11:35

My mum, you know, she's done throughout her life, you know, looked at him and she said, um, if he doesn't get there, it's not me who's failed him, it's you who's failed him and uh of course, you know, we both walked out and

Presenter11:47

What did you but what was your password? Can you?

Lawrence Dallaglio11:49

Well, I I think in I got sixty percent or something at the end, but I was on the on the third waiting list and the secretary phoned my mother and said, Mrs Daly, I must warn you that it's highly unlikely your son will be making it into Amberforth. He's he is on the third waiting list.

Presenter11:49

Well I think

Lawrence Dallaglio12:02

And my mum said.

Lawrence Dallaglio12:04

As it was by Divine Providence that I decided to put him up there, it will be by Divine Providence if he gets there. It's very amusing.

Presenter12:11

How very clever of her to say that.

Lawrence Dallaglio12:12

Personal

Presenter12:14

I mean, it's very interesting that there you were as a little boy in on that conversation that she was having with the headmaster. She was clearly letting you know that a lot's expected of you, Lawrence, that you need to hit the bar. You need to get there.

Lawrence Dallaglio12:21

Bye.

Lawrence Dallaglio12:23

You have to get there. Absolutely. You know, I think.

Presenter12:26

Is that how you breed champions, do you think? Is that a

Lawrence Dallaglio12:28

Well, I think she I think that there's lots of reasons why champions are are created and environment, upbringing, parents, genes, you know, and then there's a bit of stuff that you can learn. But there's no doubt that the greatest gift you can give a child is unconditional love.

Presenter12:44

So she got the cocktail right, basically. That's what you're saying. She gave you that expectation, but at the same time.

Lawrence Dallaglio12:45

That's what you're saying.

Lawrence Dallaglio12:47

Absolutely unequivocal love and would stick up for you in any situation no matter what and would prove that actually in order to get things you had to you can't just sit back and wait for them to happen. You've got to go and get them.

Presenter12:59

Laurence DeLelio as backing singer to Tina Turner coming up in just a minute. But right now we do need to fit in some music, Laurence, so tell us what we're going to hear next on disc three.

Lawrence Dallaglio13:07

Disc Three is a song by The Beatles. Um I was lucky enough, as we mentioned, to uh record a song at Abbey Road Studios. Not with The Beatles, but with Tina Turner. So I've got some funny photos of me crossing the the zebra crossing, but uh this is a hard day's night.

Speaker 313:23

It's been a hard day and night

Speaker 313:27

And I've been working like a star It's been a hard day's night

Speaker 313:34

I should be sleeping like a love But when I get home to you I find the things that you do will make me feel alright

Speaker 313:44

You know I work all day To get your money to buy a thing

Presenter13:52

That was the Beatles and Hard Day's Night. Lawrence DeLelio, how tall are you?

Lawrence Dallaglio13:55

At six foot four.

Presenter13:56

What do you weigh?

Lawrence Dallaglio13:57

Um

Lawrence Dallaglio13:59

About seventeen and a half stone.

Presenter14:00

Right, you're not a typical backing singer then for Tina Turner. You you have to explain yourself. How on earth did this happen?

Lawrence Dallaglio14:05

What age were you? I was lucky enough to go to school in Richmond, King's House, and I met a wonderful, wonderful music teacher there called Michael Stuckey. And he was so passionate about music. And then I learnt to sing and I became part of the choir. But because Michael was an amazing teacher and he wrote all this incredible music, we were involved with Evita, we were involved with Andrew LaWeber.

Presenter14:27

You sang at Andrew Lloyd Weber's wedding.

Lawrence Dallaglio14:28

I did, and I actually bumped into him a little while ago and I introduced myself. He said, Of course I know you. You're a rubbie plus. I said, No, no, Andrew, I actually sung at your wedding. And he sort of looked up at me and went, Which one?

Presenter14:38

Well, yes, he's had a few with me. And you you were part of the cast in Evita in the West End. How long were d were you there for?

Lawrence Dallaglio14:44

I did that for about three or four years, and it was two or three nights a week. We used to have a little chaperone who used to look after us, and Soho was quite a lively place in those days. And we were taken to the Prince Edward Theatre, and we had to come down and perform three times throughout the night. You know, and walking out in front of Amina Vita was a massive musical in those days. The biggest, the biggest, and it was packed every single night.

Presenter15:00

The biggest big

Presenter15:03

Did you get up to a bit of hijinks before you went to Ampleforth? I mean, were you sort of running with the bad boys in South Carolina? Why do I look like that? A little bit.

Lawrence Dallaglio15:09

Why do I look like that? A little bit. Yeah, a little bit of mischief. Well, I think, you know, Barnes where I grew up was, you know, a lovely place, but also that had there was a councillor state just round the corner and, you know, naturally I was attracted to the um to the rogues and and and a few ruffians as well.

Presenter15:23

You were, were you?

Lawrence Dallaglio15:23

Yeah, yeah, I mean in a harmless way, I think. A bit bit of fun, bit of, you know, mischief and you know, my my

Presenter15:26

Yeah.

Presenter15:29

That's a great word, that mischief, isn't it?

Lawrence Dallaglio15:31

Yeah, like no, I mean, listen, I was in a lot of trouble, there's no doubt about it, but.

Presenter15:36

What sort of tell me though?

Lawrence Dallaglio15:37

Tell me the problem. There was a lot of discipline in our family and you know, there's no di I mean, I you know, I mean, obviously the the way we discipline our children now is very different to to how my father used to discipline me, that's for sure.

Presenter15:43

Yeah.

Presenter15:45

Yeah.

Presenter15:53

Yeah, so you walked in at half eleven and how were you disciplined? What did he do?

Lawrence Dallaglio15:55

Yeah

Lawrence Dallaglio15:56

You know, get a good beating. I mean, you know, no doubt about it. I mean, you know, I'd get hit for interrupting a conversation, let alone, you know, but not in a nasty way. I mean, people mustn't be shocked by that. It's, you know, it's very easy for kids just to go off in the wrong direction, meet the wrong people, and get led astray. And I was always someone who was pretty good at being led astray, quite good at saying yes to things I should have said no to. And, you know, my mum would literally get in the car, drive round and pick me up, embarrass me in front of everyone, grab me by the ear, you know, chuck me back in the car, and make sure that I didn't wander too far off that road. So I'm very grateful.

Presenter15:58

Yeah.

Presenter16:28

Let's have some more music, Laurence. Next.

Lawrence Dallaglio16:29

Next is what?

Presenter16:30

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio16:30

Well ironically, I was in and out of trouble and occasionally I came across these guys. My track number four is the police walking on the moon.

Lawrence Dallaglio16:39

You're in the snippet, so what you do?

Speaker 316:44

Walking on the moon

Speaker 316:47

I put my leg already.

Speaker 316:50

Working on the mo

Speaker 316:53

We could wanna go ahead.

Speaker 316:57

Walking on my moon

Speaker 317:00

We could be together.

Speaker 317:03

Walking on

Speaker 317:05

Working on

Presenter17:10

That was the police and walking on the moon. So, Laurence Delalio, I want to take you back to nineteen eighty nine, to August. It's uh the morning of Sunday the twentieth. Uh how did you hear that your sister Francesca was missing?

Lawrence Dallaglio17:25

First of all, the night before the Marchioness tragedy, we'd all sat down as a family, as we often did, and had dinner together. And we talked about the party, which I was also invited to. And I had a headache and decided not to go. The next morning, my mum woke me at about 6:30, 7 in the morning, and in a terrible panic, saying, Have you heard the news? And I could hear helicopters buzzing around everywhere. The Marchioness has sunk, you know, and we haven't found your sister yet. And I immediately knew then that she she had died because

Lawrence Dallaglio17:56

you know, she was the most responsible person I'd met, you know, very grown up for her age, so of course she would have phoned up. And it was just an incredibly traumatic few days. I mean, I don't think they found her body till four days later. So uh

Presenter18:07

She had been with her boyfriend. Her boyfriend ended up in hospital. She was at nineteen she was the youngest of the the fifty one people who died. Um what are your memories of her as a person? I mean, you say you know she she got a scholarship to ballet school. She was just embarking on her professional dancing life at nineteen.

Lawrence Dallaglio18:19

Ballets

Lawrence Dallaglio18:22

You know, when you become more philosophical about it, you sort of look back and say, Well, I've got to try and just be grateful for the nineteen years that we spent together.

Presenter18:29

And what

Lawrence Dallaglio18:29

Were you close? Very incredibly close. In those days we used to write to each other, which is terribly romantic, isn't it? And very nice. But my sister used to write letters all the time. And I was, you know, typical boy. I'd write one in every four that she wrote probably back. But she was a very beautiful young woman. Very beautiful and incredibly gifted. I mean, you're talking about a girl who got into the Royal Ballet School on the strength of five lessons. So clearly had a natural talent for dancing. But then she worked so, so hard. She just secured herself a job to go and teach in Austria for the Austrian Royal Ballet and become a model and dance herself. And then her life was taken away. So it certainly blew me away at sixteen. Because we'd been such a tight-knit family, my father went in one direction because men grieve in a very different way to women sometimes. And, you know, having three children of my own, I'm sure you'd understand as well that having to bury one of your own children is just unthinkable.

Presenter18:43

But she was choosing.

Presenter19:20

Show the

Presenter19:23

One of the things that you've told me here about the fact that you were supposed to go with your sister.

Lawrence Dallaglio19:27

Mm.

Presenter19:28

Makes me wonder how much that that's been a problem for you over the years, how much you've thought if I'd been there if I'd been

Lawrence Dallaglio19:32

Yeah, of course you do. You think, you know, and I mean I you know, I always think about that, you know, well, what what if? What you know, maybe I should have been, but then it's you sort of think to yourself, maybe the ample fourth null spiritual thing is, well, that was God's way, you know, because if well, if I was supposed to be there, I would have been there, wouldn't I? And I think that if I'd have been there, you know, you can think the manly thing, well, of course I'd have saved her, well, maybe I wouldn't. And it would be easy to fill yourself with anger, with guilt, you know, with all those things. But at at sixteen, I don't think you really understand those emotions enough to to put them into perspective.

Presenter19:38

But

Presenter19:44

Yeah.

Presenter19:47

Red.

Presenter19:59

Notion.

Presenter20:03

We will actually talk a little bit more about what you did,'cause it really did throw you off course. But what about your mother? In those months that followed?

Lawrence Dallaglio20:08

Well, I mean, as I said, grief, you know, she was r you know, obviously very emotional, but then riddled with absolute anger at the injustice of it all and no one seemingly wanted to do anything about it. And, you know, why was there no public inquiry? She became virtually a marine lawyer, you know, she she studied maritime law. She bought one share in Ready Mix Concrete, which was the company that owned the Bobell. She turned up at their AGM several years after the incident and when it came to any other business, she put her hand up and she said

Lawrence Dallaglio20:38

My name's Arlene Delalio and you murdered our daughter. She didn't do it on her own. There was a number of other people in the Martianist Action Group, but she eventually, you know, many, many years later, got a public inquiry. Now the RNLI have some rescue boats on the River Thames as a result of her work. And those rescue boats are called out virtually on a daily basis to save lives. So there's a legacy there which I think is important.

Presenter20:51

Yes.

Presenter20:56

Oh they

Presenter21:01

I mean, of course, nothing could even come close to compensating her for what she went through and for the daughter that she lost and Francesca, your sister, but but was there any sense in which she reached some sort of peace about it, where she thought we have done something and it's a good thing?

Lawrence Dallaglio21:14

That's a good thing.

Presenter21:15

Uh

Lawrence Dallaglio21:15

In one sense, in the in the in the in the sense of a legacy, yes, but I don't think you ever completely parked those emotions and, you know, in a sense, when she did pass away it was almost kind of well, at least I'm going to be, you know, reunited with my daughter.

Presenter21:20

Yeah.

Presenter21:28

Let's have some music, Lawrence. We're on disc number five.

Lawrence Dallaglio21:31

Disc number five is Bob Marley, One Love. It's a song about everyone stopping fighting and becoming one, a bit like the sentiments in John Lennon's Imagine.

Speaker 321:46

All of love.

Speaker 321:48

Let's get together and feel alright.

Speaker 321:54

Hear the children crying. Hear the children crying. Saying, give thanks and praise to the Lord, and I will feel alright. Saying, let's get together and feel alright.

Presenter22:13

That was Bob Marley and One Love. Lawrence, I'm wondering about then your reaction to this really unimaginable trauma that you went through when your sister died. You were only sixteen and you didn't go back to Ampleforth. You couldn't go back. You didn't want to go back. What what were the reasons for that?

Lawrence Dallaglio22:28

Well, I think, you know, as I said, everyone grieves in different ways. My father was sort of, you know, trying to be stoic and strong, but clearly had a very telling effect on him. In fact, he went on to have a heart attack, mine heart attack later. My mother sort of immediately overcome by anger and sort of threw herself into the whole campaign for justice and to find the truth. And I think I'm sort of left. Initially, I was left in a quite a lonely place. Not that my parents didn't sort of think, oh, you know, check on me and make sure everything was alright, but you just do feel like you're on your own a little bit. And it was just a massive hole. And if I'm honest, I was completely blew my world apart. You know, I sort of began to live life much more day by day.

Presenter22:58

Sure, everything was alright.

Lawrence Dallaglio23:10

Think you what's what's the investment all about anyway? Because it's just cruelly taken away from you. So um I did find it c very, very difficult indeed and and uh I wouldn't say I went off the rails but there was I was certainly floating around with no real purpose in life and I decided eventually about two years later that I've got to do something. You know, I joined um

Speaker 323:15

Yeah.

Lawrence Dallaglio23:31

I join wasps, I join a rugby club.

Presenter23:33

In that period had you been doing any sport at all?

Lawrence Dallaglio23:36

Um, yeah, I guess so, but not in the I don't know, it's always hard to know what is a lot. Um, I suppose it I I would have been a lot for that age. Um but also just yeah, a sense of trying to find take yourself out of reality. Eventually I got some sort of structure back to and some sort of um you know, some sort of discipline back into my life.

Presenter23:44

But

Presenter23:54

And so rugby gave you that discipline.

Lawrence Dallaglio23:56

Yeah, without a doubt. But also I joined a club which where I knew no one. I picked up the newspaper at the time and it happened to be the side at the top of the league. I thought well I might as well start there and then work my way backwards. And but I felt suddenly very much at home there. There was a real sense of family and a real sense of belonging and no one asked me about my past which I kind of liked. And you know, I stayed there twenty years. I'm still on the board of the club now. And as I said it gave me an olive branch to cling to and then in turn that for my parents was something that they were able to get involved in as well.

Presenter24:25

And what about did you feel that you even more than ever that you had to succeed, that you had to give your parents something to be optimistic and joyful about?

Lawrence Dallaglio24:33

Yeah, I I just f I I felt a sense of, you know, I I'd kind of not been wasting the the opportunities that my mum had given me and my parents had given me, but, you know, certainly if I put m where I'd been side by side with my sister, there was one that had worked her fingers to the bone and there was another one who had just been this casual, carefree, just all let it all happen individual. So I definitely became, you know, much more driven and thought, actually, if I bothered to buckle down and do something, I could actually be quite good. So yeah, I I pulled my finger up.

Presenter25:01

Let's have some music then. Next, we're on disc number six, Lawrence. What is it?

Lawrence Dallaglio25:06

Well we've spoken a lot about my mother and this song obviously reminds me not only about school discos and sort of pogoing up and down but also about my mother. Her name was Eileen so this is Dexie's Midnight Runners.

Speaker 325:18

Roll up soup, royal food, baby, I'm a save more than never.

Speaker 325:25

Moral to Ra, Loo Ra, Tura, Loo Ri.

Speaker 325:31

Hey, what you sing the slanger from?

Speaker 325:38

Come on, oh I swear I believe at this moment you need everybody

Presenter25:47

Dex's Midnight Runners and Come On Eileen.

Presenter25:50

I'm afraid, Lawrence, we we need to talk I know you probably won't want to about the News of the World I need to talk to you about that terrible moment. It was May the twenty-third, the year was nineteen ninety-nine, I think and Britain woke up to the headline England rugby captain exposed as drug dealer. You have said since that you think the headline should have been News of the World sets up a story, gets someone drunk and then records their exaggerated ramblings as fact.

Lawrence Dallaglio26:14

Yeah.

Presenter26:15

Yeah.

Presenter26:16

Yeah, how did you feel when that was published?

Lawrence Dallaglio26:18

Um well not terribly proud obviously. Um I think when you

Lawrence Dallaglio26:23

have experienced some of the things that I've experienced in my life, one has to put things into perspective. I don't I you know, I don't blame anyone in particular, and I don't remain

Lawrence Dallaglio26:35

Remain terribly blameless in the whole episode myself because you're always accountable for the things that you say and the things that you do. But I think it's fairly clear that only this type of thing happens in any one country in the world, and that's in the UK and in England in particular. Is it right to record people's private conversations and make them known in public? I mean, if we did that to everyone, we'd all have a few embarrassing things that would come out.

Presenter27:04

You were hauled up in front of the RFU and Clive Woodward said at the time that you were guilty of naivety, stupidity and foolishness, and you behaved like a complete prat. So that just about covers it.

Lawrence Dallaglio27:13

Well, I think, you know, i we didn't agree on everything. I think it's fair to say, but but

Lawrence Dallaglio27:20

Listen, it was very public, it was embarrassing. And and do you know what? Then the mo my most immediate thoughts were actually I'm more concerned about the people around me and my mum and what you know, what I'd done in terms of making their life much more difficult. But um

Presenter27:28

Yeah.

Presenter27:33

You know, you you said that as a child your mother would defend me to the hilt in public. In private, I'd get a tongue lashing. Did she give you a tongue lashing?

Lawrence Dallaglio27:38

Did she give you a time? Yes, she did, but uh you know, publicly, she of course she defended me to the hilt. And when I think about all the things that have happened in my life, you know, there's not a day that goes by where I think about the news of the world. It's just a tangled web of

Lawrence Dallaglio27:51

Of nonsense, really, as far as I can see.

Presenter27:54

Okay. The other aspect of sport is the roller coaster of the emotions. You've referred to it a couple of times. I mean, the emotions run more than high.

Lawrence Dallaglio28:01

Rugby in in more than any other sport in essence is about you as an individual, you as a person. But if you find the right emotional touch points, I think the power of what you can achieve is quite phenomenal. And I believe that a good side will always beat a great side because of the power that you can generate from that emotional touch point.

Presenter28:07

Cloud.

Presenter28:20

You went out and this doesn't happen to many sportsmen, you went out on an incredible high, leading your side Wasps to their fifth Premiership victory in two thousand eight. You you seemed, as I watched you, brim full of emotion at the end of that match.

Lawrence Dallaglio28:36

Yeah, I was very, I mean, I'll be honest, in every game I played, I always thought about my sister always at some point. I feel a little bit guilty about this sometimes because I don't know how much that was just natural or how much of that I used her passing and all the emotions that that created as a means of getting myself in the right frame of mind that I needed to. So, no, I mean, those emotions were, and I was riddled with self-doubt at times in my career, you know. On a Monday and a Tuesday, I'd be thinking to myself, you know, how are we going to beat this team on Saturday? And then by Wednesday, feeling a bit more comfortable, Thursday we were going to win. Friday, we were definitely going to win. And Saturday, we were unbeatable. It was more than just a game.

Presenter28:58

Passage

Presenter29:03

Were you?

Presenter29:16

How did you feel about yourself when you lost?

Lawrence Dallaglio29:19

Well, I mean, I wouldn't sleep. I'd be up all night thinking about playing every minute of every game and uh kids would look at me and say, Have we got happy daddy or sad daddy today? Uh, you know, and I I became obsessed. I wouldn't talk to anyone for a while for about two or three days until I'd finally come out of my my grump and then ready to play the next game. And um, you know, you rarely lost two games in a row, that's for sure.

Presenter29:38

Okay, some music then. Disc number seven.

Lawrence Dallaglio29:41

Well disc number seven, interestingly, talking about rugby. I mean this was an iconic song by Oasis. I was lucky enough to be a part of an amazing tour for the British and Irish Lions to South Africa, which we won against the world champions. And although Wonder War was the song that we kind of inherited as the anthem of that particular tour, my favourite song from the album is Champagne Supernova.

Speaker 330:05

Slowly walking down the hall Faster than a kind of roll Where were you, why we, we're getting out

Speaker 330:16

Someday you will find me covered in the slimes And the shadows of another burn sky Someday you will find me

Presenter30:32

That was Oasis and Champagne Supernova. You got married Laurence Delaglio in, what, two thousand and six, was it?

Lawrence Dallaglio30:38

Got married in two thousand six. Bit like my father, you mentioned earlier, seemed to take me a little bit of time to uh to take Alice up the aisle, but uh

Presenter30:45

The beautiful Alice, who is mother to your three children, why did it take you a while?

Lawrence Dallaglio30:48

Well, I suppose,'cause, you know

Lawrence Dallaglio30:50

kept procrastinating. I mean, one could argue I was in the middle of a rugby career of which I was obsessed, but also we we Alice and I met reasonably young. We'd been together a month when she was pregnant with our first child ever.

Presenter31:02

Oh right.

Lawrence Dallaglio31:02

And then obviously we had Josie two years later and Enzo two years later after that. So it just took us a long time. I think by the time we got married, and as I said, it's not an excuse, but everyone had been through both mine and Alice's journey, all the ups and downs. They lived all the emotions of your life. And, you know, we had our children singing in the church in Lake Como. We had everyone in tears. It was just the most amazing celebration of life. You know, because Alice and I had split up for a few months. I mean, we've been through lots of different emotions. What was it that split you up, and what was it that got you back together? Well, I mean, I just think, I mean, I probably got the work-life balance a bit wrong. I mean, there's no, it's fair to admit. That's good of you to acknowledge that. It's fair to admit, you know, I didn't see Alice for the best part of a year and a half, two years. You know, we'd finish with the premiership final, then the next day I'd go off on tour with England. And I'd have about two or three weeks a year where I'd be a normal person, where we'd go away on holiday and I could relax. I think I was probably more of a machine to live with than a person. And, you know, it just took its toll. So. And it was.

Presenter31:39

That's good of you to acknowledge that.

Presenter31:51

Okay.

Presenter31:56

You know, he's

Presenter31:58

And it was it was a terrible injury that that sort of brought you back together.

Lawrence Dallaglio32:01

Yeah, it was. Yeah, I broke my leg in in New Zealand and you know, Alice was watching on T V back home and the kids were there and you know, and and yeah, I mean, I'm I'm very thankful that it did. And we're wonderfully happy, you know, we have some great times and yeah, amazing.

Presenter32:14

Let's have some more music, then. What are we going to hear?

Lawrence Dallaglio32:17

We are going to finish with an amazing song by Peter Sarsted, Where Do You Go To, My Lovely? This reminds me of my mother-in-law who was amused for Picasso and it's a song about ballerina, Zizi Jommaire, which reminds me of my sister and my wife Alice, who is just part of the jet set.

Speaker 232:39

But but where do you go tonight, lovely?

Speaker 232:43

When you're alone in your bed

Speaker 232:47

Tell me the thoughts that surround you

Speaker 232:51

I want to look inside your head, yes I do.

Speaker 232:57

I've seen all your qualifications

Speaker 233:01

You got

Speaker 233:03

From the Sorbonne

Speaker 233:05

And the painting you stole from Picasso.

Presenter33:09

Peter Sarsted, and where do you go to, my lovely? So, Laurence, here's the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you're allowed to take a book of your own. What would you like to take?

Lawrence Dallaglio33:17

I'd like to take Ripley's World. It's a story about Andy Ripley, the rugby player, an iconic number eight for England and the British Lions. I was actually privileged enough to be invited by his wife Elizabeth to speak at his memorial service at Southwark Cathedral in December. Obviously, I lost my own mother to cancer, and I'm inspired by his story. And, you know, he was an incredible man. I remember meeting him many, many times. And there was a famous quote by Albert Einstein, which said, Only a life lived in the service of others is worth living. And I thought when I met Andy that he put it a lot better than Einstein, with a little bit more flair. He said, You can earn a living from what you get, but you can only get a life from what you give. And take it from me, baby, giving is always best. So he was a very, very special man, and I miss him dearly.

Presenter34:03

We shall give you that book then, Laurence. And you're allowed a luxury on this island, something that makes being alone a little more bearable. What will your luxury be?

Lawrence Dallaglio34:13

You know what, I'm not very good at luxuries. I'm good at buying them for other people, especially my wife. So I had to think quite long and hard about this. The only thing that I would really miss is Marmite, which is what I have every morning on my toast.

Presenter34:23

I have never

Presenter34:25

Thought you can say wine. I thought you were going to take some fabulous Italian wine. Okay, Marmites?

Lawrence Dallaglio34:28

Yeah, that's my luxury id

Presenter34:30

It's yours, a great big jar of it. And if you had to choose just one of the eight tracks today, which one track would you choose?

Lawrence Dallaglio34:36

I'd probably choose Peter Sarsted.

Presenter34:39

It's yours. Laurence Delanio, thank you very much for letting us hear your desertimon discs. Thank you.

Presenter35:29

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter35:32

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk/radio4.