Rt Hon Alex Salmond

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:33

My castaway this week is the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond. Leader of the Scottish National Party, he's regarded as a canny operator, admired for his political nouse and debating skills. His goal is Scottish independence. He first led his party twenty years ago, and even as a primary schoolboy, he stood for the SNP in a classroom election. Back then, however, it was because they were the only party left to choose. But we Alex Salmond showed early political promise by winning on a ticket of half days for all and replacing the school milk with ice cream.

Presenter1:09

Later still, it was a lover's tiff with an English girlfriend that spurred him on to take up the Nationalist cause for good. He says It may not have been the most auspicious and organised beginning to a political career, but I like to think that at least it did display a degree of enthusiasm and fortitude. Alex Sammond, you've been described by one commentator as half bully, half charmer. Do you think that's the sort of balance you need to be a successful man in politics?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond1:34

Oh no, sure surely more more charmer than uh than than bully. I I I think politics y you're doing a combination of things and uh I I think uh charm is uh more essential than bullying.

Presenter1:45

It's difficult for those of us on the outside of politics to understand why politicians love it so much. What does it do for you? Where's the thrill?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond1:54

Well there's a a lot of thrill in the in the game. You know, I I think most politicians, uh certainly good politicians, like the the game, you know, they like the chase, they like the activity, they like the the art of politics. But, you know, unless you're you're aiming for a goal, it's all meaningless. And I think a lot that's wrong with politics now is it's not the standard of politicians, it's the standard of ideas, that uh there are very, very few politicians who actually have a goal in mind. Now, I mean, you know, if you go back a generation then

Rt Hon Alex Salmond2:22

Then people in the Labour Party believed in socialism, they believed in the New Jerusalem.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond2:26

So if you lose your end goal, then it does make the art a bit meaningless.

Presenter2:30

I noticed Clarissa Dixon Wright said of you that for an extrovert you were very shy. Are you quite a shy man?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond2:37

Well, in the company of Clarissa, almost certainly. But then you you don't get much a look in, do you?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond2:42

But you know, if you're having dinner then, that's a different matter altogether.

Presenter2:44

Right. So you are, I understand, a devoted trekke. You watch a lot of Star Trek. You could probably quote lines from episodes gone by. You like the racing. Go to the bookies. You are uh a golfer, keen golfer. Do you find any time for music in amongst all of this? As well as the small matter of of running a nation, of course.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond3:02

I w I love music. I used to I the times I had most time for music when I was doing a lot of uh or driving, to you know, between meetings and things. But, you know, music's been a a huge part of my life right since I was a a wee laddie.

Presenter3:15

Yes, of course, you're in the ministerial car. I imagine you've got quite a big fancy car these days. Do do you get to choose the music in that, or is it all politics and uh government papers?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond3:23

The major problem with uh the ministerial cars is that uh it's your best opportunity to phone people. So the the music gets interrupted by the phone call, the politics gets in the way of the music.

Presenter3:35

Yes, lots of clues as we go through this list as to who the the private Alex Salmond is. Of course it's a very Scottish list, that won't surprise people. Also a very romantic list.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond3:45

Yeah, well I'm in the but I don't know, I mean uh what I don't know what percentage of songs are are love songs, but it must be it must be the majority. And uh first up is uh in my view the best uh love song ever written. This is Robert Burns uh A Fon Kiss and performed by Anne Lawn Gillis, one of Scotland's many, many outstanding female voices.

Speaker 44:05

He found kiss and then we severed

Speaker 44:14

If it waved our loss forever Deep in hell tears I'll pledge thee

Speaker 44:32

Warling Sun.

Presenter4:36

Anne Lorne Gillis and A Fond Kiss. You've sung a bit of Burns in your time, Alex Salmond. You any good?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond4:42

Well, I I was a boy soprano and I sang lots and lots of Burns songs because my my singing coach, Beezer Brown, was a a Burns fanatic and that that's basically how I got introduced uh to Burns, and that's one of the most beautiful.

Presenter4:54

Yeah.

Presenter4:56

Let's look back then to two thousand seven, you're First Minister of Scotland, as we know, the highest political office you can hold, on that day as you were being sworn in.

Presenter5:05

What were your feelings?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond5:07

When you get s you know, something that you've thought about for a long time, but it's never happened and then it happens, it's a sort of strange almost uh I mean, I apparently according to everybody I looked very calm and collected and cool. I wasn't feeling particularly calm and collected.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond5:22

I should explain, in the Scots Parliament, you don't know your First Minister until the Parliament votes.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond5:28

It's not like, you know, down here, although it was less so this year, obviously, or last year, uh, you know, when there was a a a hung parliament, therefore there was a bit of post-match excitement.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond5:37

In the Scots Parliament you never know you're going to be a First Minister until the vote happens in the Parliament, which either makes you or doesn't make you the First Minister.

Presenter5:46

And as you say, the cameras trained on you and everybody saying you looked perfectly calm, but what was going on inside?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond5:51

All my political life was uh racing before me, you know, but uh but it was just a great moment. It was a chance for a new direction in Scotland and a a chance to strike out for the future.

Presenter6:00

Right. And now, of course, I mean, we don't want to get too much into the politics'cause that's for another time in another place, but certainly by most people's estimations it would be fair to say that independence is farther off than it's ever been right now.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond6:12

No, I I disagree. I think we're closer than ever. You know, when I was uh uh in politics people told me you never have a Scottish Parliament.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond6:19

And then they told me there will never be an SNP Government in that Parliament. And now that the same people tell me Scotland will never be independent now, I think given that we're wrong.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond6:28

And the first two. They're wrong in the third as well. We've never been closer.

Presenter6:31

A lot of people would strongly disagree with that. I'm gonna of course ask when's the vote on that gonna be?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond6:36

Well, that depends on the people in every sense. It depends on the people in the election this year, the the parliament they choose. But, you know, if we're in a position to get a a referendum vote through the parliament, then we'll do it. The destination.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond6:47

is as certain as anything can ever be in politics.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond6:50

The time frame depends on the the wishes of the people.

Presenter6:53

Well, that's what I'm talking about when I say farther away. When when voters look at the state that Iceland's in and indeed the state that Ireland's in, they might reasonably assume that they themselves do not want to get an independent Scotland into that sort of state.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond7:05

Or they might look at p the state that Norway's in and say do we have a lot of comparisons with that country? Or they might look at the state the United Kingdom's in and say why on earth would we want people in London to to run our banks or to run our economy? Wouldn't it be rather better to run our own show and make sure that the resources of Scotland benefit the people of Scotland.

Presenter7:27

Let's move on from politics then. Let's talk for a moment about your boy Soprano days. You you uh you were pretty good, weren't you? You were meant to be going on a tour of Australia at one point. W what happened?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond7:37

Well I was all right. I mean uh I had a good voice. I mean I could sing lots and lots of octaves and uh and I loved doing it. I absolutely adored it. Four four octaves you did. Yeah, I sing on four octaves as a boy soprano. And what happened about the the Australian tour that my my singing coach was great pals with the musical director of ABC in Australia and he heard the uh the part I did on the Mile in the Night Visitors and and and wanted me to go to to Australia. But unfortunately I was I think thirteen by then and he was terrified my voice was gonna break. So they sort of shipped me out to Australia and then find a instead of a a soaring soprano they had a half broken tenor. So I never got to go and uh what I remember is the the the great uh joy I got in in being able to perform.

Presenter8:23

Yes, I that's what I wanted to ask you about actually. Do you think it gave you you know, it sort of built your nerve up at a crucial stage, the idea that you can stand out there in front of people and not be terrified of an audience?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond8:33

This is the most important thing. If you can sing in front of thousands of people when you're ten or eleven, then you're speaking in the Westminster Parliament is nothing. Being a Scottish First Minister is nothing in comparison to that.

Presenter8:44

And did you ever did you ever suffer nerves as a wee boy and?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond8:47

The the straight answer's no. Uh every really just the most incredible fuss of you got spoilt rotten. But I I know that it taught me how to handle audiences. And the the thing I got out of my my singing was the ability to handle an audience.

Presenter9:01

So tell me about the particular piece of music that we're going to hear right now.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond9:06

A Mile in the Night Visitors this is a an opera from Juan Carlo Minotti, the Italian-American composer. So it's about a a peasant boy and a single parent mother in in Palestine towards the birth of Christ and uh he's he's a cripple, they've got no food in the house, no wood for the fire, things are really bad, and then events take a a magical turn.

Presenter9:54

That was Jet Allen and Rosemary Culeman and Don't Cry, Mother Dear, from Gian Carlo Minotti's Amal and the Night Visitors and Memories There, Alex Salmond, of your boy Soprano Days. So you were born in Linlithgow, a pretty beautiful time with a beautiful historical ruined palace. You were there. I wasn't born in the palace. You weren't born in the palace, no. Mary Queen of Scots was born in Linlithgow. So quite a historical place. I lived in the palace. Yeah, it's quite a historical sort of potent place to grow up in. Because I'm thinking post-war central Scotland, 1950, not such a glorious place, but there you were in a place that had a lot of historical colour. Did that seep through?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond10:09

You weren't born in the palace.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond10:13

Also quite a historic.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond10:19

I'm thinking

Rt Hon Alex Salmond10:28

Yeah, Walter Scott once wrote a book called Tales from Your Grandfather's Knee, which was about Scottish history told as a grandfather to a grandson, and I got that from my grandfather. And of course it was like getting Braveheart, but except it was much better because my grandfather, for example, he told me once about how Bruce Robert the Bruce's men had retaken Livgo Castle, it was then from Edward I's armies, and the way my grander told it, he he told the story and then he'd start naming the folk who'd done it. You know, he was saying it was some Hamiltons involved and Davidsons and oliphants. Now, oliphants were the local bakers in Livgo. So I'm I'm sort of four or five year old and I've got this vision of the guys in the bakehouse, you know, dusting down the flat and charging up to the castle and retaking the castle. It was just amazing stuff. And it made me very aware and conscious of history. And very conscious of Scotland, of course, that was the point of it.

Presenter11:21

And so that was your grandfather, the plumber. Your dad did what? What was his profession?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond11:25

My my dad's a civil servant, as was my mother. They met in the the in the civil service, in the in the Ministry of Pensions office in the Livko.

Presenter11:33

Um your father was pretty left wing. Your mother was a well, we call it now a Tory voter, it would have been the sort of Unionist party then, but she she represented that sort of fairly substantial body of Scottish opinion, which was slightly to the right.

Presenter11:47

What were your early feelings about politics? Did you align yourself with one or the other?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond11:51

When when my mum and dad had arguments, I tended to spoke with my mum and everything but the politics. But the the contrast between mum my mum and dad was amazing. I mean, she was what you might call a Churchill Conservative. She thought that Churchill was the the greatest man that ever lived and you know my dad wanted to hang him because of what he'd done to the minors. Uh my my dad was called Joe in the Navy after Stalin. My dad was quite iconoclastic about these matters.

Presenter12:16

Yeah.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond12:16

But it was a great it was a great contrast.

Presenter12:18

Money was tight, was it, when you were being brought up?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond12:21

Well, I mean we weren't poor but uh you know was I was brought up in a council house in West Lowe and I mean I've got uh two sisters and a brother and every single one of us got to university. You know it couldn't have been well it wasn't easy for my parents to do that. I mean that was a that was a tough call but it was something that they absolutely wanted it to happen. I mean I had this notion when I was when I was fifteen that I wanted to go and work at Steen's Brickworks and earn some money like so many of my pals were doing you see. And then so I had got a holiday job at Steens and my uncle was a a foreman and he could fix me up with a job and so I announced this to my startled parents that I'd decided that for me it was Steens Brickworks you know and my mum never said anything if that's what you want fair enough. So in the holidays I couldn't understand it. You know I was uh

Rt Hon Alex Salmond13:05

Instead of getting an easy job, I was shifting anthrocyte. And I couldn't understand for my uncle's a you know, a foreman and I wasn't looking for any great preference, but I've got the dirtiest, smelliest, most ridiculous, back-breaking job in the entire Britlers. And after about, you know, three or four weeks, I was really in a bad way. And so I said to my mum, I've you know, I had to think about things and I I'm I'm I'm after the holidays I'm going back to school after all, you know. And she said that's fine. Of course it was years later, years later, I finally found out, of course, she told my uncle, you make sure.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond13:38

You make absolutely sure that he doesn't want to stay at the Brugos, and that's why I'd got the the worst jobs.

Presenter13:46

Let's have some music then, Alex Savant. What are we going to hear next? We're on disc number three.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond13:50

This is uh Jerry Rafferty in Baker Street. Uh Jerry Rafferty died uh very recently and was a wonderful, wonderful musician. Uh it's uh it's a haunting, haunting tune and it was la my last year at university when I when I heard this first, when the album came out, it's that sack solo which uh everybody knows.

Speaker 414:27

Winding your way down a baker street

Speaker 414:31

Light in your head and then on your feet well another crazy day

Presenter14:39

That was Jerry Rafferty and Baker Street. Uh you were very close to your mother, Alex Salmond. She she passed away seven years ago. Tell me a bit more about her. What was she like?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond14:48

Oh, she's an incredible woman. I I think ev for every boy a mother's the most important person. Uh when you lose your mother there's nothing, nothing in life ever prepares you for that.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond14:58

In her later years she went rambling, climbing mountains. She did 110 Monroes, which are high mountains in Scotland.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond15:06

And so this sort of pensioner was galloping over the the the great mountain peaks of Scotland and uh she died uh by natural causes, but she died up one of these mountains, which for her was perfect. You know, what better place to to go than than someone you love? For the rest of us it was a it was a big shock because we thought she was immortal.

Presenter15:27

Indeed. Um she didn't live then to see you become First Minister. That must be something of regret of you, given that she had sort of in her own quiet way made sure that you got to university and got the education and, you know, made your way in life.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond15:40

The best story about my mum is that uh as we said, she was a Churchill Conservative and had voted that way all her days. And one of the elections I was decided we weren't getting enough publicity. I I always think that. But uh so I thought we'll do a London press conference. It was going really well.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond15:58

And a wee guy from the Daily Record, which is the big selling newspaper in Scotland, pipes up at the back, Is it true your mum's a Tory? And you know, I said something like, Listen, uh, you know, what my mum does or doesn't do is between her and the ballot box. But of course, I I knew what was actually going to happen. It was, you know, if he can he persuade his mum, how can he persuade the country? So I was in a state of panic about it because, you know, nothing really fazes me in politics, but your family is a bit different, you know. So I phones up my my mum and explains what's happened and and she says, Don't worry about it, just leave it to me. So half an hour later, she gets uh doorstepped by the Daily Record, uh saying, you know, is it true you're a Conservative?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond16:43

To which my mum replies, Well, it's true that I have been a Conservative.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond16:47

But I'm very disappointed in mister Major.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond16:51

And so I can tell you exclusively that I intend to vote in the same direction as my husband.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond16:57

And my son.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond16:59

Now I'm in a a high state of excitement down in London, and I'll phone in my dad every fifteen minutes, and this procession, because all the journalists had been at the press conference, she's here and they smelt a story. So I'm phoning up and saying, you know, what's happening? What's happening? And my dad says, Listen,

Rt Hon Alex Salmond17:13

She's not had so much fun since the Blitz.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond17:16

Stop worrying.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond17:18

And the moral of this story?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond17:19

If you're really in trouble.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond17:21

Trust your mother.

Presenter17:22

Yes, ain't that the truth? Let's have some uh some more music then. What are we going to hear next, Alex?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond17:27

Well, there's a connection between Jay Rafferty and the proclaimers who we're about to hear, and that's that Jay Rafferty produced uh their their first uh big hit, Letter from America, the album. And it's just a good example of uh you know a great musician helping the the next generation to come along. And I'm gonna be Five Hundred Miles. Every Scott and lots of other folk as well, they rock to Five Hundred Miles.

Speaker 417:53

But I would walk five hundred miles and I would walk five hundred more Just to beat a man

Speaker 418:03

Those and miles don't fall down and

Speaker 418:07

But I'm watching this

Speaker 418:09

Cause I know I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be the man who's working hard for you.

Speaker 418:14

No money

Speaker 418:16

For the work I do, I'll pass almost every penny on to you.

Presenter18:20

That was the proclaimers and I'm going to be five hundred miles. Um, you have said, Alex Salmond, that uh Scots are imbued with a certain amount of pessimism. Do do you think they are imbued with a a certain amount of chippiness too?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond18:33

I think the the pessimism is a celtic thing, isn't it? It's not so much pessimism, it's the move from

Rt Hon Alex Salmond18:40

Hopeless optimism to deeply imbued pessimism. And sometimes it can take some a matter of minutes. It's in between. Well, yeah, the Adam has said it wasn't liquid refreshment.

Presenter18:50

But what about I mean, it is acknowledged, of course, that there is this sort of doer, pessimistic air that can imbue Scots quite easily. Do you think some of that?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond18:58

You mustn't think all Scots are like God Brown.

Presenter19:01

Something else that Gordon Brown was well known for, of course, was his very fierce temper. And I noted that that your biographer said that your temper was a crushing thing, a soul-destroying emotional train wreck for an individual. That came from somebody who'd worked closely with you. Do do you recognise that? You hot-tempered?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond19:17

Well, let's put it this way, I I've never I've never, to my knowledge or memory, thrown phones at anybody that I can I can possibly remember. All I'll I'd say is this, I mean I I think lots of politicians and lots of Scots have a a bit of a temper on them, and it's it's born out of an impatience. But the one thing you know I'd say in my my defence that virtually everybody who's worked for me and the entire time not just in politics but before that, uh I've always wanted to stay working for me, so that must mean something.

Presenter19:46

It is of course true that most people and I'm talking here about Scots and not just people of Great Britain would be hard pushed to name another member of the Scottish National Party. It is to all intents and purposes, given your your capabilities as a parliamentarian, the downside is it's a one man ban. There you are, and you sort of are the Scottish National Party.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:04

Well, it's interesting. People used to say that, but I mean, Hardy Emily says it certainly in Scotland now. I mean, Nicholas Sturgeon, John Swinney, uh Michael Russell, these are all major politicians. And one of the big arguments we've got is there's now a a team of of people of stature who are leading the country. I think most people would recognize that.

Presenter20:20

Given your acknowledged considerable skill at debating, d do you think your style ever tips from confidence to arrogance?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:28

I I think there's a difference in context.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:31

Wh when I became leader of the the SNP we had three MPs.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:36

three.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:37

At Westminster.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:38

I now lead a group of forty-seven MSPs in the Scottish Parliament.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:43

When you're three M P's out of six hundred and fifty.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:47

If you want to be noticed, if you want anybody to be aware of your existence.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond20:52

You honestly have to have two things. A good conceit yourself, as you would say in Scotland, you have to have a bit of self-confidence and you have to be prepared to elbow your way to the front. So I simply did that and I think history will record it w it was reasonably successful in terms of getting the SNP noticed for the first time in a generation. When you're a First Minister, when you're charged with leading a country.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond21:17

Then it requires you to do different things, and just occasionally you've got to bite your tongue.

Presenter21:21

By many accounts though, watching you at First Minister's questions deal with your opponents.

Presenter21:27

Is a bit like somebody watching somebody kick a puppy. I mean, you're so good at it, and other people, you know, in that environment are not quite seen to be up to speed quite often by commentators.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond21:36

Now, can I just have it absolutely clarified? I don't go about kicking puppets on the side.

Presenter21:39

Here is an analogy.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond21:40

That I mean, you know, you can survive many things in politics, but the idea that you might at any stage kick a puppy is, in my view, unsurvivable. No puppy kicking from this First Minister. Now look, I like debate.

Speaker 421:50

Okay.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond21:55

And, you know, if you ask a robust question, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a robust answer. You mustn't try and eradicate the cut and thrust from politics. I mean, that would make it that would make it a a lesser a lesser profession.

Presenter22:09

Let's have some more music then, Alexand. What are we going to hear next?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond22:13

When I was a boy soprano, my hero was Paul Robeson, the greatest bass voice of the twentieth century, in my view. And I was so uh impressed by uh not just the singing but the whole story of Paul Robeson that I demanded my my singing coach that I I should be able to sing Paul Robeson songs. But can you imagine a boy soprano singing Old Man River? And uh but Paul Robeson is the the great rallying figure of black emancipation and uh they also had uh the voice of the century, a voice in which deep bells ring.

Speaker 422:47

We and I saw Joe Hill last night.

Speaker 422:51

Alive as you and me

Speaker 422:55

Says I, but you

Speaker 422:57

Your ten years, Dave.

Speaker 422:59

Fine. Tides

Presenter23:10

That was Paul Robeson and Joe Hill. All politicians, Alex Samond, inevitably, are somewhat concerned with their legacy. I'm wondering if you look back on the decision to free Abdel Bassett al-Megrahi as something you regret, given that it will be writ large in your own political obituary that you were the leader who presided over that. This, of course, was the man who was found guilty of the Lockerbie bombing.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond23:34

I I think in these things, you know, a any time in politics tough decisions will come along. Uh and what you just have to

Rt Hon Alex Salmond23:42

To be confident about is you've made the right decision. And I think Kenny McCaskill, the Justice Sector in Scotland, made the right decision. And everything that comes out about this case vindicates the position that the Scottish Government took. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody's going to think we're right. I mean, if you take a tough decision, lots of folk will think you're wrong, some people will think you're right. But everything that is revealed shows that the decision we took was based on judicial principles of Scotland. What we said we were doing is what we did.

Presenter24:11

But there we have a man who was released just to remind people on compassionate grounds because he was suffering what was judged to be terminal cancer. Now there he is, alive eighteen months later. He was given more than a hero's reception as he touched down on Libyan soil. And for a lot of people, not least as you of course know, the families of the very many people who died, the hundreds of people who died, that was a gross insult by the Scottish Government.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond24:36

Well, two things. One, you'd be wrong to say that all families and all relatives disagreed with the decision. Some of the UK families agreed with the decision and have said so. It's true to say that most, not all, but most of the American families didn't agree with the decision. And that's that's entirely understandable. But we had to take a decision which we thought was on for the right reasons in the in the interests of the Scottish judicial system and we have clear criteria for the the issue of compassionate release and I think uh we had some uh substantial supporters internationally as well as some substantial detractors.

Presenter25:14

Do you regret the decision?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond25:15

No. I I think if you take a decision for the the right reasons then you you shouldn't regret it. And and certainly in terms of forecasting how long anybody's got to live with terminal cancer, every person listening to this programme knows that it's the most difficult thing. I mean people understand that.

Presenter25:30

You made a decision not to take part in the US Senate's inquiry. There's some who say that that really did diminish your role as an international player, that in a way you should have really stepped up to the plate there and represented your country's decision.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond25:45

Well I I think the overwhelming body of opinion in Scotland certainly, but I think wider afield is that I'm responsible to the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish people and the Scottish judicial system. I'm not with enormous respect responsible to the American Senate. And the day that an American President or Secretary of State comes to the Iraq inquiry and gives evidence in London might be the day that there would be an expectation that a politician from another jurisdiction should be accountable to the American Senate.

Presenter26:14

Alex Semmond, let's listen now to disc number six. Tell me why you've chosen this.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond26:17

What we're about to hear is uh Carl Matheson, just a voice to dream about, with Capper Kayleigh. Th this track's famous because this was the the first Gallic song which made it into the charts, and it's a wonderful song.

Speaker 426:52

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 426:56

And one another bow, shall I get your own?

Presenter27:04

That was Caperkeli and Kaushik Ehren. You once said if I had moments of self-doubt they wouldn't be about politics. So what would the moments of self-doubt be about?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:14

I I think I was trying to make the point, people were saying, Do do you ever make mistakes on Portics? Like, yeah, of course you make mistakes. Uh, but I I think

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:21

for me at least, the other side of life the is the things you reg you regret more, I suspect.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:29

I uh

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:30

Last time I met my mum.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:32

Sh she cooked tea for me. I was gonna eat canvas.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:36

And I was rushing to get out. I'd promised to go canvassing in my hometown for the candidate.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:42

And

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:43

I've always regretted it.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:45

Not spending.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:47

more time. I mean she as she always did did everything for me, as she did for all her children.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond27:53

And I've always regretted not saying, Oh, well, the canvassing can wait half an hour, because I wasn't and I'm sure.

Speaker 127:57

My good

Rt Hon Alex Salmond28:00

But that folk listening have had similar experiences. I I think the real regret is what you didn't do often and uh and that's the same for everyone.

Presenter28:08

Given that, as you say, your father will be ninety in in August and and your mother died seven years ago, and given that uh

Presenter28:15

As you say, that regret that you've just shared will be one that will be familiar to many people. I wish I'd spent more time. I wish I hadn't rushed out the door. D are you careful to spend time with your father? Do you make sure that you

Presenter28:26

We cover that ground that might otherwise have gone uncovered.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond28:29

Yes, I do. And uh they I have to say my my siblings, my my my brothers and sisters spend more time than I do. But uh I was in seeing them just uh just before Christmas and uh w uh we we talked for a long time.

Presenter28:42

Given that men of a certain generation in Scotland t tend to not share their emotions too easily, does he tell you he's proud of you?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond28:50

They, um yeah, he does. And uh he he does it in his own way, but uh I've never been in any doubt about that. I had just the best possible upbringing. I'd have just wonderful family, friends. Uh, I'm so fortunate because a lot of folk don't don't get that.

Presenter29:06

What's our next piece of music, then, Alex Salmond?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond29:09

Well it's Johnny Cash in San Quentin. This is just the most electric. I think I think I'm right. There certainly was a either World in Action or Panorama did a programme on this way, way back. We're talking end of the sixties. And I watched it one night and ever since I've thought this is just the most amazing live performance. This is Johnny Cash, the man in black, going to San Quentin, the toughest nut jail in the United States of America, and laying it on the line.

Speaker 129:42

San Quentin, you've been living hell to me.

Speaker 129:48

You blustered me since 1963.

Speaker 129:54

I've seen'em come and go and I've seen'em die.

Speaker 130:00

And long ago I stopped asking why.

Speaker 130:05

San Quinn, I hate every inch of you.

Presenter30:12

That was Johnny Cash and San Quentin. You were loving every minute of that, Alex Salmon, just lapping it up. You'll be celebrating your is it your thirtieth wedding anniversary this coming year, in May of this year? Um your wife, Moira, has coped with surely the most thankless task in the world, that of the political wife. How how has she found it?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond30:31

It's the most thankless task in the world. It's political spouses, not just wives. I mean, focus on politics, you're in public life, you choose to be in public life.

Presenter30:35

Yeah, so do

Rt Hon Alex Salmond30:41

I always think political spouses have just got the roughest end of everything. They they have all the downside. And Moira, my wife, I mean, I've been married for thirty years, as you say, and uh she has done it with such grace and uh patience and been so helpful. I've just been so lucky.

Presenter30:56

Has she ever sort of pulled you back from the brink of a big decision, sort of sat you down and said, Listen here, Alex, you're really you're on the wrong road, listen to me.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond31:04

No, she'd be a bit more subtle than that. She meant she often disagrees with me. I mean, I'm sure that's part and parcel of uh any marriage and debate about anything. But uh she would uh perhaps ask me to have a another think about something. And of course, more because she s she she comes from a background outside politics. She always says she's moved past me in the political spectrum, you know, she's zoomed past me and is much more radical than I am now and all sorts of things. But she might uh just occasionally say, Well, why don't you think about it from a a non-political point of view?

Presenter31:29

Yeah.

Presenter31:32

And does she sort of fix your shirt and tie before you go out the door and say you need a haircut and tell it you to sort of keep an eye on them, you know, on polishing your shoes and all that?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond31:40

I'll tell you, years and years ago, before I was in politics but uh I was doing stuff for the Royal Bank, I was the Royal Bank economist, Moira was watching this interview I was doing on television and uh I had some hair out of place, and my granny turned to Moira and says, See that hair? That reflects in you.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond31:58

And Laura every time she says, Look, get the shoes polished.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond32:04

I says, Oh, well matter, she says, mind what your granny said.

Presenter32:09

Um you don't have children and I'm wondering w what you would like your legacy to be. You you're probably going to say independence, I'm guessing.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond32:19

Well, uh certainly progress to independence. But you know, not for its own sake, not for you know, let's be independent so as we can hoist the salt, you know, let's be independent so as we can better the lives of the Scottish people. That'd be something worth having.

Presenter32:32

Let's hear your final disc then. What are we going to hear to Bob out on today?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond32:35

Well I'm going to hear something really emotional. This is Caledonia with Dewey MacLean. It's an anthem. It's an anthem about Scotts Returning Home. This is a song for Scots coming home.

Speaker 432:49

I don't know if you can see.

Speaker 432:52

The changes that have come over me

Speaker 432:56

These last few days I've been afraid.

Speaker 432:59

That I might drift away

Speaker 433:05

I've been telling old stories, singing songs That make me think about where I came from And that's the reason

Speaker 433:14

Why a scene? So fun

Presenter33:16

How do we today?

Presenter33:20

That was Diggy MacLean and Caledonia. We'll all dry our eyes, Alex Salmond, and come to the point then where I will hand you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you're allowed to take a book along with you. What are you going to take?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond33:31

Well uh complete watch Robert Burns just amazing and uh uh there's enough in there.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond33:37

to keep me going for years.

Presenter33:39

You're allowed a luxury as well on the island, Alex. What's your luxury going to be?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond33:42

Oh the sandwich.

Presenter33:44

Uh

Rt Hon Alex Salmond33:44

Uh I mean, as my golf game deteriorates, uh the the thing that's deteriorated more than anything is being in bunkers.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond33:53

I can play reasonably well and if I go into a bunker now I'm stuck, lost. Now if I get a sand wedge and it says Desert Island.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond34:01

When I'm rescued, I'll be Gary Blair.

Presenter34:04

Okay, playing with Monty and the best of them. Um if you had to choose just one disc then from from the eight today, which one disc would you save?

Rt Hon Alex Salmond34:13

I I think probably Paul Robeson. He was such a hero. And and because the song is about fighting.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond34:20

Paul Robeson changed the lyrics of songs to make them more about human struggle.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond34:27

I mean Omar River it it changed uh I keeps laughing instead of crying till I'll keep fighting until I'm dying.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond34:34

And, you know, that's not a bad epitaph to have.

Presenter34:37

Alex Salmon, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Rt Hon Alex Salmond34:41

Great pleasure, thank you.

Presenter35:28

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc.co.uk slash Radio Four.