Sandie Shaw

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:33

My castaway this week is Sandy Shaw. With her melodic, velvety voice, bare feet, and sassoon bob, she was the epitome of everything that was swinging about the sixties. Just seventeen when she went from Dagenham to Platinum, with the number one hit always something there to remind me. Highs, yes, but some terrible lows too. For a time she was broke and depressed. For the past thirty years, Buddhism, a busy family life, an entirely new profession, and a couple of hit singles along the way, have turned her life around. I don't want to escape from the moment. I love it, she says. It's how I feel about life in general, and I'm happy to dip in and out of the past. You seem to have pulled off quite a neat trick to me, which is that you are happy to enjoy the past and yet you're happy to live in the moment. You're not trying to cut yourself free from the image that people had of you back in the sixties.

Sandie Shaw1:26

No, that's part of who I am. I have recently started working again as Sandy Shaw um and trying on that hat for size. I did the Goodwood Festival of the Vintage Festival and performed live there for the first time in twenty five years. And loved doing that, I loved producing the whole show, really enjoyed that. And then I did the theme tune for Made in Dagenham.

Presenter1:48

And so you take uh time out to dip in and out now and again of of the the life you used to live, of of of working in in uh the music business. This entirely new profession then. You're a psychotherapist. You run something called the Arts Clinic. That's counselling people in the entertainment uh business particularly. You're known as Mrs. Powell when you practise there. I'm wondering if the younger performers particularly

Presenter2:12

Know who you are, as it were. Do they know you've got this great history of performing yourself?

Sandie Shaw2:17

I don't see people when they're together. I see people when they're falling apart and they're so interested in themselves that they don't see me. I'm. Just something there for them to use, and that's perfectly all right for me.

Presenter2:30

Performing live after twenty five years, getting on a stage and doing your stuff, and when I imagine when people come to see you they have very high expectations. I mean, you were a a great performer and you had a great stage presence when you were at the height of your fame. Nerve wracking?

Sandie Shaw2:45

Not really, because I was introducing all these other women. So I was more concerned with how they were feeling about things and making sure that they were okay. And that took my mind off myself. And basically I just thought about my frocks. This is a wonderful displacement activity. It's the con

Presenter2:59

Concentrate on the frocks. You have been nicknamed, and I think it was Billy Bragg who did this, Lady Saga.

Sandie Shaw3:07

Yeah, that's true.

Presenter3:08

And also the Dagon and Deva, you know, that does both of those do hint at somebody who has a fairly healthy ego.

Sandie Shaw3:15

Oh, I do. I have a wonderfully huge ego, size of many solar systems, my husband says.

Sandie Shaw3:24

Um I try to turn it around by embracing as many people as I can within my ego, which is a is a struggle, and I think that's always a struggle of somebody with a big life.

Sandie Shaw3:35

I'd prefer to call it a big life.

Presenter3:37

Yes, that sounds much better, doesn't it? Well, we'll talk plenty about you and your big life as we go along, but for now we're going to actually hear you singing. De tell me about your first track today and why you've chosen it.

Sandie Shaw3:45

Coconut Grove I've chosen because it really sets the scene. I'm so looking forward to being marooned on my desert island. And this song I sang in the late sixties, it's almost as if I knew that I was going to be on this desert island and this was preparing me for it.

Speaker 44:04

It's really true that nothing matters No mad, mad world, no mad hatters No one's pitching cause there ain't no batters In coconut grow

Speaker 44:17

Don't bother door, cause no one's comin' The ocean's roar will come the drumming Of any silly thoughts of cityways

Presenter4:30

That was my castaway, Sandy Shore and Coconut Grove. I read once that you said you felt beautiful when you started to sing.

Sandie Shaw4:38

Oh, yeah, that's true. I I never felt beautiful as a child. In fact, I wasn't. I was lanky and puberty didn't come till very late. And uh I had glasses and freckles and I wore plaits and I just kind of felt out of place. I was very shy as well. And my aunties always used to encourage me to sing to bring me out of myself.

Presenter5:06

Most recently you have uh sung the title song for the movie Made in Dagenham. Of course people will know that it's about the factory workers and and the the women who fought this battle to to get equal pay on the factory floor. Incredibly you started off among them. You did work in was it the Ford factory in Dagenham you worked in?

Sandie Shaw5:11

Yes.

Sandie Shaw5:22

Yeah, I worked in the factory. I only worked there for six weeks. I was a punch card operator. It didn't go well. You didn't enjoy it? I just got so bored. And I was already singing in social clubs and dance halls before that. And I'd already met people in London. People in London. How mysterious. And I'd met Adam Faith. I'd been on stage. Already?

Presenter5:38

I'm doing

Presenter5:45

Already by that point.

Sandie Shaw5:46

By that point. And he was the a big star of it. He was a huge star. And what happened was I came second in a local talent competition. Somebody saw me, introduced me to an agent who put me on a show that Adam Faith was starring in.

Presenter5:48

Big star of the

Sandie Shaw6:01

So when I was singing.

Sandie Shaw6:04

All the guys, all the bands were all on the side of the stage all watching me, cheering me on and it was just fantastic. You always it was the first time I really felt beautiful. Was it? Yeah.

Presenter6:15

I saw a wonderful picture once of Adam Figg sort of scooping you up. He was he was kind of carrying you in his arms.

Presenter6:22

You must have been then seventeen, not much older.

Sandie Shaw6:25

Um, I think when he scooped me up and he said, he's only tiny, you know. I know. Um that was after the Eurovision. He was so happy that won. Yeah, he was really happy that I'd won. And he he was a great influence on my early career in that he suggested lots of business deals that um

Presenter6:31

That's that one

Sandie Shaw6:44

in the end came about that I owned all my material. And that would never have happened if it weren't for him doing his deals, which is you know, he's known for it, isn't he? Mr Moneyman. He was, yeah. Although he took so much money from me, I got a lot in return.

Presenter6:53

Mr. Moneyman.

Presenter6:55

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter6:59

Right. What do you mean he took he sort of took a cuss of taste at it?

Sandie Shaw7:01

Oh yeah.

Presenter7:02

Titty.

Sandie Shaw7:02

Oh, yeah, so most of my wages went to Evie, my manager, and to Adam. Right.

Presenter7:08

How did you feel about that?

Sandie Shaw7:09

But I didn't give I didn't care.

Presenter7:09

But

Sandie Shaw7:11

I didn't even know, to be quite honest, until many years later.

Sandie Shaw7:16

Did you ever have the conversation and say hold on?

Presenter7:18

You were a bit sharp there.

Sandie Shaw7:19

Yeah.

Presenter7:19

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw7:20

No, I actually wanted him to be my manager, not Evie.

Sandie Shaw7:24

I always had so much money. There was so much. I can't tell you how much money. I just didn't know what to do with it. I was very naïve. What did you spend your money? I mean, I came from David. Where the hell would I know? I'd never had a bank account or anything. So, what did I spend it on nothing? The dresses that I bought were like six quid down the King's Road. The accountant was always pleading with me, please give me some expenses. You're paying 90% tax.

Presenter7:33

I mean I can't

Sandie Shaw7:48

Uh let's have some more.

Presenter7:49

Music then. What are we going to hear? Disc number two.

Presenter7:52

Uh

Sandie Shaw7:52

Walking inside

Presenter7:54

Why have you chosen this one?

Presenter7:56

Because it's what I will be doing.

Sandie Shaw7:57

And also because the Shangri Lars, these were the kind of bands I used to listen to and we had to learn by listening to other people's records. And so I learnt by listening to American girl groups. That's where the style that I liked, and because it was so kind of teenage, there was nobody doing it here in this country.

Speaker 48:12

TV like me young and day

Speaker 48:16

My baby went away.

Speaker 48:20

He went away from me.

Presenter8:40

That was the Shangri Las. And remember walking in the sand, Sandy Shaw. You you said a moment ago the you know these terrific amounts of money rolling in as your success sort of took off. What did your parents make of that amount of money? Because, you know, they're two working class people who've, you know, struggled their entire life to pay the bills.

Sandie Shaw8:56

Um

Sandie Shaw8:58

They were very helpful to me. They would look after money, put things away, and so that when I was twenty one and also when I was thirty that I would not ever want for anything ever ever in my life again. So they were kind of trying to be prudent on my behalf. I didn't know.

Presenter9:14

Oath. They were just doing it quietly.

Sandie Shaw9:15

Uh

Presenter9:15

Tell me a bit more then about your family background. You were an only child.

Sandie Shaw9:19

Uh

Presenter9:20

Yeah. Yeah, what was that like?

Sandie Shaw9:22

Well it was on my own. Yeah.

Presenter9:24

That much I got.

Presenter9:27

You know, some people like it, some people don't. Did you I don't

Sandie Shaw9:27

People like it somehow

Sandie Shaw9:29

Well, you don't I don't know any different. Yeah. I I tend to marry only children as well. Right. Because I think they understand that you

Presenter9:30

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw9:37

Can be with somebody and not be with somebody that I I like the feeling of um being on my own, which is I think why I would probably be okay on the desert island. And was there a lot of music around then? What did your parents play at home? Records mostly. Um and my they had a great collection of records and this wonderful gramophone player, you know, the music came and it went splat because they were so hard and heavy, these seventy-eights. That was kind of the um piece d'hommage in the living room.

Presenter9:51

Mm.

Presenter10:02

Yeah.

Presenter10:07

Yes. Did it have a cocktail cabinet attached to that? Yes, exactly. Yes. Did your parents know that it was your dream then to make a profession out of becoming a singer?

Sandie Shaw10:09

Yeah, yeah.

Sandie Shaw10:15

Yeah.

Presenter10:15

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw10:15

Oh no They thought Oh I wasn't want to do anything.

Sandie Shaw10:18

um rather than live in Dagnum because I couldn't see what I could do in Dagnam.

Presenter10:22

Tacking them.

Sandie Shaw10:22

Yeah.

Presenter10:22

Let's have some more music then. We're on disc three, Sandy Shaw. Tell me what we're going to hear next. It's a long time ago. Yeah, I know. This one is especially. Tell me about this and why you've chosen it. So it's Guy Mitchell now.

Sandie Shaw10:32

Oh, I would have heard this when I was, you know, very, very young, uh, six-ish, and it would be the kind of thing that Auntie Jen would ask me to sing with her.

Speaker 410:40

I worked in a London bank, respectable position. From nine to three they serve you tea, but through your disposition Each night at the music hall, travel outside see. And once a pearl of a native girl kept smiling right at me. She wears red feathers and a holy holy skirt. She wears red feathers and a holy holy skirt.

Presenter11:10

That was Guy Mitchell, and she wears red feathers and a hoolie-hoolie skirt. Are you imagining yourself dancing round the island to that?

Sandie Shaw11:16

Oh, I shall definitely be dancing to that and I shall definitely find some red feathers from somewhere. Or some I don't know, maybe it's some palm leaves and

Presenter11:23

Your look has always been a huge part of your performance. It was um little short of revolutionary, this swingy hair, this sort of very pared down look. Um were you presumably aware that you were breaking away from how the other singers at the time looked? Which was all sort of very starchy hair and dressed a bit like the Queen

Sandie Shaw11:40

Yeah, I I was I was hoping to distance myself from all that and um represent my own generation.

Sandie Shaw11:48

They're the people I was singing for, so I made a conscious effort to do that, and I've I've always loved design.

Sandie Shaw11:54

All kinds of design, and I remember at the time we were on this big sort of

Sandie Shaw11:59

Mishmash of creativity. It was incredible. Tell me about your hair. Yeah.

Presenter12:05

You have the sort of hair. It's in my head. Yeah, but it's all mine. You know, it's all it is obviously, clearly, all yours and is a sort of incredible shining glory on you today. You've always had this fabulous hair, the sort of hair that women lust after. When you got that initial bob, what was it cut from? And I'm talking about the Sassoon cut now. What did it go from? Was your hair terrifically long before it was cut?

Sandie Shaw12:05

Put them in my hand.

Sandie Shaw12:25

Yes, I think it was,'cause I used to wear it up a lot. My manager had gone away to America looking for some material for me and um I thought, Oh, God, she's gone, that's great, I can get my hair cut the way I want it So uh I just spoke round there and said, Oh, please, I want it done exactly like this and they d I was just so I was like a new woman when I came out.

Presenter12:43

And this manager was Eve Taylor, yes. Right. Tell me about Eve. I've seen the photographs. I'm suitably terrified. I mean, she looks terrify.

Sandie Shaw12:45

And

Sandie Shaw12:49

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw12:51

Was she terrified? Absolutely. Yes. You could a she was on the fifth floor of a office block in Regent Street and you could actually hear her from Piccadilly Circus. She shouted so loud and she got angry. She petrified me.

Presenter12:51

What she ta

Presenter12:52

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw13:06

Just to take her in. Give me some codeine. So I had to come in with some codeine and when she got really bad. Oh, I'll make you a bowled egg, Eve.

Presenter13:12

Anything to Pacify her. That's extraordinary, really, because yes, you were very young. You were seventeen when you hit number one, with always something there to remind me. You had three Number One hits in a row. You had tremendous power, uh as an artist one would have thought. She might have been the one bringing you a boiled egg.

Sandie Shaw13:31

Oh no, that would never happen.

Presenter13:35

Um I mean, didn't she want to keep you as a client? Wasn't she trying to keep you happy?

Sandie Shaw13:41

I was so young compared to her. She was, you know, she just didn't understand what was going on. But, you know.

Sandie Shaw13:48

She made me a l a lot of money, a such a lot of money. So, what what can I well, I lost it all in the end, but uh the she

Presenter13:55

You made me a lot to lose, put it that way. When you were you you you were touring, of course, once you were this very uh successful singer, it was the sixties. You very much were part of defining that look of the sixties. Were you also defining the behaviour of the sixties? Could you enjoy the

Sandie Shaw14:10

Then there's people's f

Presenter14:11

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw14:11

I mean they sort of like regularly used to denounce me in Pravda for influencing young people badly, you know, and look at this girl, she sings barefoot.

Sandie Shaw14:21

Yes, she goes on motor scooters.

Presenter14:24

And he wears short dresses. What could be worse? You you started singing barefoot because you were told you sang better with your shoes off.

Presenter14:32

Back. Do

Sandie Shaw14:33

I do everything better with my shoes off.

Presenter14:34

Uh you did that rather brilliant twist on events when many years later you sang with the Smiths and they were all barefoot and you were wearing fabulous stilettos.

Sandie Shaw14:41

Oh yes.

Presenter14:42

Yes. Good idea. Was that your idea?

Sandie Shaw14:44

No, no, it was Johnny Maher's idea. Yes.

Presenter14:50

Pushed me to do um silly things, but there you go. For neither, we're not going to hear the Smiths. What are we going to hear? Disc number four, Sandy Shaw.

Sandie Shaw14:56

Um we're gonna do Georgie Fame singing barefoot in.

Presenter14:59

Uh

Sandie Shaw14:59

Why not?

Speaker 415:01

Everybody, get on your feet.

Speaker 415:04

You make me nervous when you're in your seat

Speaker 415:08

Getting on heat.

Speaker 415:10

Tune a dance that can be beat

Speaker 415:16

Barefoot

Speaker 415:19

Math or

Presenter15:22

Yeah.

Speaker 415:22

On

Presenter15:26

That was Georgie Fame and Barefoot and it captured, of course, the the spirit of that moment. We we've come this far, Sandy Shaw, and we haven't spoken about Puppet on a String. It was a huge hit, and you didn't like it. Why not?

Sandie Shaw15:40

It was a horrible song.

Presenter15:41

It won it for the first time ever it won Britain the Eurovision Song Contest. Yeah.

Sandie Shaw15:45

Yeah.

Presenter15:45

Yeah.

Presenter15:46

Great. Still a horrible song, Mozilla.

Sandie Shaw15:48

Yeah, it's still a horrible song. But I mean, it was really nice to win. It was really nice to represent Britain. I felt very European at the time because I was such a huge star in Europe. So it actually did feel like a uniting thing.

Presenter15:59

I am confused that you didn't like the song, because I I I went back into the archive and watched footage of you singing it.

Sandie Shaw16:05

Mm-hmm.

Presenter16:05

God, you're giving it your all. I mean, you really in that performance on that night, you really gave it something.

Sandie Shaw16:10

I won I love winning. I'm incredibly competitive. Don't try playing back gammon with me because I will win. You know, I just it's just such an amazing feeling to win. So I will do anything to for that. Right.

Presenter16:22

And was there was there a bit of aggro on the way there? There was, as I understand it, the sort of background to that day was you were not getting on with Eve, your manager, or there had been a bit of R. G. Bargey, or what happened?

Sandie Shaw16:31

If you really want to know, the B B C wanted to fire me.

Sandie Shaw16:34

Because um I had a divorce scandal at the time which um came out just before the contest and they um you weren't being divorced, no you weren't. No, I was involved in somebody else's divorce. Right. And um they didn't think it was the right image, so it was incredibly unpleasant. You know, I was only young to have all that going on backstage. It was very hard. But I had to hold all that in.

Sandie Shaw16:59

When I was singing.

Presenter17:02

And so and so when you won and when you came back, the the heroine of the hour, did you feel I mean, how would the how were the powers that be with you then? Suddenly the girl that they didn't want to know was, you know, was that the motherfucker?

Sandie Shaw17:11

Oh, the one loaded me like a rash. But um I didn't feel like celebrating to be quite honest. I was just so exhausted by the whole thing. But I got locked out of my room. I went upstairs with a big bottle of champagne, my lynx coat,'cause it was okay to wear fur then. And I was like locked out of my room, so I just laid there on my fur coat with the champagne bottle that I couldn't open.

Sandie Shaw17:33

Go to sleep.

Sandie Shaw17:36

Oh gosh, that was on the night. It's so glorious, isn't it? Yes, that was on the night you won, you fellas and nobody else was partying for me.

Presenter17:37

That was all.

Presenter17:40

Yeah.

Presenter17:43

Were you allowed to party at all, or did Eve keep a pretty tight hold on you when it came to your extracurricular? I couldn't pay for me if I wasn't that bloody silly. You could. Yeah.

Sandie Shaw17:47

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw17:51

Yes, always find a way. They after this episode, they made my dad chaperone me around the world.

Sandie Shaw17:59

to make sure that I never got into any other.

Sandie Shaw18:01

um disturbances of s you know, that kind of thing.

Presenter18:04

And uh had your dad travelled before?

Sandie Shaw18:06

No, no, and he was like he's more excruciatingly shy than I am. So it was really great. It it so changed him. It changed his whole life. My mum was so grateful.

Sandie Shaw18:18

Every single one.

Presenter18:19

I

Sandie Shaw18:20

Uh

Presenter18:20

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw18:20

I did.

Presenter18:20

You re-recorded Papa on a String quite recently. I mean, it is a noticeably different recording.

Sandie Shaw18:27

Oh, I was cured, it was a therapy thing.

Sandie Shaw18:30

It was, yes. Well, Howard Jones said, This is ridiculous. Do you remember Howard Jones from the 80s? He's a really nice guy. He said, I have to cure you of this. He was playing about with these different chord sequences on the piano. I said, Have a go. So I did, I tried it and it was like this wonderful lay back forlorn kind of song. It kind of changed completely.

Presenter18:35

To the 80s.

Presenter18:51

But did it

Sandie Shaw18:51

What

Presenter18:52

Bark, did you feel like you'd exercise?

Sandie Shaw18:53

I'm completely free now.

Presenter18:53

Oh completely

Presenter18:55

Yeah.

Presenter18:58

Yeah, it's just a song.

Presenter19:00

Let's have some more songs then. What are we going to hear next? We're at track number five now, Sandy.

Presenter19:06

Where are we? We're we're back in

Sandie Shaw19:07

Well, we're in Grenada really, aren't we? Yeah. We've collected a piece of land in the Caribbean, in in Grenada, which actually is where I want to end up being because all the things that I like doing that I would probably do on my island as well. I like working with seeds, like to see if I can grow the trees from seed, and you can get immediate results there because of the climate. I love the Caribbean. We got married there. It's a special place for me. And Bob Marley actually represents to me all that is fantastic about the Caribbean.

Speaker 419:39

Old pirates, yesterday, Rabbi.

Speaker 419:44

Hold like to the merchant ships.

Speaker 419:49

Minutes after date to Kai

Speaker 419:53

From the bottomless bit, But my hand was made strong.

Speaker 420:01

By the hand of the Almighty.

Speaker 420:04

We forward in this generation

Presenter20:09

That was Bob Marley and the Whalers and Redemption Song. So, Sandy Shaw, you were twenty one and you got married for the first time. It was to Jeff Banks, and as we know, you ha

Presenter20:19

Yeah.

Presenter20:21

Listeners, she's grimacing. You'd already made plenty cash by then. It's very interesting to me, and of course seems odd given my perspective these days that you signed everything over to him when you got married. You signed all your assets over to him. Why did you do that?

Sandie Shaw20:38

It was the law. Ah, was it? The law was that the husband is responsible for everything financially.

Presenter20:43

So, yeah.

Presenter20:44

Given that you were representing this new way of doing things, of throwing off the old orthodoxy, of not wearing hairspray or false eyelashes or any of the rest of the world.

Sandie Shaw20:51

Yeah, it just shows how superficial the whole thing was.

Presenter20:53

Precisely, yes.

Sandie Shaw20:53

Precisely, yes.

Presenter20:55

And so financially there came a point when things very much did not add up.

Sandie Shaw21:00

His business had gone tits up. I was a director and a guarantor.

Presenter21:05

Right, so your money had gone with it.

Sandie Shaw21:07

So everything that people wanted they would want from me.

Presenter21:11

Throughout this period of the marriage and you still working, did you ever have a sense that maybe business wise things were going a bit wrong, or did it completely come like a bolt from the blue?

Sandie Shaw21:21

Oh, I knew things were wrong because, um, Jeff got more and more ill ill-tempered and angry and

Sandie Shaw21:27

Um

Sandie Shaw21:29

And even though I was a director, I wasn't privy to anything that was going on in the business. And um he was just working just all the time, like I just driven, completely driven. And I had tons of money and I'd got pregnant. I was really wanted to have my baby and just be quiet. I'd also started doing things that I wanted to do in my career. I'd started acting. I'd also started writing a musical. And then I had this news that, you know, all the the the business was over.

Sandie Shaw22:01

We had nowhere to live.

Presenter22:03

Uh

Sandie Shaw22:03

Yeah.

Presenter22:03

You go to live.

Sandie Shaw22:04

Well, for a while with his parents or with his parents, his in his parents' little terraced house. And then after that, um, moved to Ireland and lived in a caravan. How old was your daughter at this point? She was very young. She was toddling and I had to keep leaving her. It was so awful. I used to leave her cassettes. I and I used to take cassettes of li of her oh gosh, I want to cry.

Sandie Shaw22:27

When I had to go to work I would um record the conversations that we'd had and then I would take it with me while I was working because I just wanted to be with her. I didn't want to have to do this.

Presenter22:41

Um it's your daughter Grace um and you are particularly close. Um do you think that's just

Sandie Shaw22:46

She was she was very tiny at that time, she was about four. So it kind of it lasted a whole decade, I think, this these these dark ages.

Sandie Shaw22:56

And um I became a Buddhist.

Presenter22:59

Well, tell me we will we will uh and I want to indeed come on to the Buddhism, but I'm wondering where your parents were in all this. What advice did your mum and dad give to you at that point?

Sandie Shaw23:09

They had no idea what was going down between Jeff and myself, and they just I couldn't tell them. It was just so awful. I just couldn't tell them.

Presenter23:16

When you had to start living the life of somebody who had no money and had to worry about money.

Presenter23:21

How difficult did you find that? For example, how were you getting to your work? Were you going on the bus? Were you.

Sandie Shaw23:26

No, no, no. I mean, at the beginning I was going out earning huge sums of money in order to pay huge debts, so I had to go out on tour, and I was doing tours that I didn't want to do. I wanted to be at home.

Presenter23:32

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw23:37

It's the kind of work that I'd I'd left. Do you know how much it's different money then? You know, when you say a million pounds, it's like worth so much more now.

Presenter23:46

Yeah, but

Sandie Shaw23:46

Yeah, but I'm so it's it's it's a yeah. So um finally I thought I would prefer to go out waitressing rather than do these gigs, so I did. I'm just not going to do things that I don't want to do. You know, the one thing that I want to keep in all this is my integrity. I so want to keep that because not just for me but for my daughter, I want t her to to know that I can sustain that. And um I had a wonderful time.

Sandie Shaw24:12

Time in my life. Honestly? Absolutely. Why? Because I was just with people and I could share things with people at last. I knew the chef, he was another Buddhist. The other waitress, another Buddhist, she was Beryl. And like, you know, Beryl is my my closest friend now to this day. And so I made lifelong friends during that time and it actually was the best, best time in my whole life.

Presenter24:15

Why? What was the good about it?

Sandie Shaw24:36

Extraordinary. Let's have some more music then. What are we going to hear now? Oh, yes. Well, of course the Beach Boys are are amazing. I'm on the beach and when I hear Beach Boys songs, I mean, you know, surfs up, for goodness sake. Good vibrations.

Speaker 424:47

Thank you.

Sandie Shaw24:49

I think I'd listen to this round a f I would have made a fire and I'll be sitting by the fire. I might even dance round it in the moonlight.

Presenter24:57

Why not?

Presenter24:59

I'm picking up

Speaker 425:00

Vibrations, she's giving me the excitations, I'm fucking up

Speaker 425:07

Good vibration, good vibration

Presenter25:24

That was the Beach Boys and good vibration. So, Sandy Shaw, as you've mentioned throughout our conversation, you are a Buddhist. When did it begin?

Sandie Shaw25:32

It began in

Sandie Shaw25:34

I was twenty-nine at the time, and I'd met a musician called Annie. I was in my flat, she came out of my flat, and I had no money. I didn't have enough money.

Sandie Shaw25:45

To pay electricity, so I had candles and managed to get a meal together with her. And during this, she said to me, You know, you can change all this if you want to.

Sandie Shaw25:53

And I said, How? And then she started telling me about Buddhism. So I just I thought she must be mad. This couldn't possibly work.

Sandie Shaw26:01

And then as soon as she went, I thought

Sandie Shaw26:06

And to be quite honest, I've never looked back. What did you do? You chanted for some money, did you? First thing I chanted for, so yeah, I want some proper proof that this works. I chanted for some money and I um A specific amount? A specific amount, the amount that I reckoned it would cost to make an album.

Sandie Shaw26:20

How much? I think about twenty five grand, twenty five, thirty grand. And um and then I rang, which I never do. I suddenly had all this courage that came out of nowhere. I said, Oh.

Sandie Shaw26:31

I'll ring the head of Sony, so I'm Maurice Overstein.

Sandie Shaw26:36

And um was a very old man in the music business and um

Sandie Shaw26:42

He took me out to dinner and he said, What would you like? I said, Oh, I'd like this money to make an album. He said, Sure.

Sandie Shaw26:48

Yeah.

Presenter26:48

I could make things happen. And just to be clear here, Sandy, there had been I mean, had there been years of depression or there had been years of uh w what's what happened in your state of

Sandie Shaw26:58

In my dark ages I just gradually gradually, you know, that whole period in the seventies just sank deeper and deeper and deeper and felt more and more kind of hopeless about things. And every now and again I kind of like try to resurface and try and get things together, but I couldn't go down again.

Sandie Shaw27:13

Grace was really happy that I started chanting. And if I couldn't because I was really down, she'd make my mouth go up and down to try and make me do it, because she knew that I would feel better. How old would she have been?

Presenter27:23

And when she was watching you

Sandie Shaw27:24

She's quite young, she's about sixish sixish.

Presenter27:24

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw27:29

Right.

Presenter27:30

D has it has it uh given you a a particular bond, do you think? I mean, you have you're a mother to three children, but do you think between you and Grace, because she saw you go through that is a

Sandie Shaw27:38

Well, I have a particular bond with each child, but that is um

Sandie Shaw27:42

Um a unique one, I think.

Sandie Shaw27:47

But she practises now, and most of my children do.

Sandie Shaw27:51

My husband does. I wouldn't dream of being married to a man that didn't practise. And to be married to somebody like me, you've got to be able to hold your own ground.

Presenter27:59

Now this is your third uh husband. This is Tony. We we we we should

Sandie Shaw28:02

Yeah, we should. In the middle, I had Nick Powell, who's I call him my favorite ex-husband.

Sandie Shaw28:08

And I just adore him. I've got Amy and Jack with uh our two children with him, and we are I we try to be really good parents together. But um I wanted a spiritual companion.

Presenter28:18

He is a fellow clinical psychologist. Is that part of your compatibility too? That is, you know, as you were more interested in looking underneath, you know, you found somebody who has that interest.

Sandie Shaw28:20

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw28:27

Yeah, he's he's much more um yeah. Uh Nick is much more interested in the material side of what's going on in the outside world and Tony's much more interested in the internal world.

Presenter28:37

How is your material world now? I mean, given that, you know, you went from incredible riches to to being uh the waitress, the faceless waitress to many, you know, are there?

Sandie Shaw28:46

But you know ours.

Presenter28:47

Yeah.

Sandie Shaw28:47

Okay.

Presenter28:47

Uh

Sandie Shaw28:48

Yeah. Well, yes. Yes.

Sandie Shaw28:51

Have you done that then? Yeah, I've done that, been there, lined my pockets, right?

Presenter28:52

And

Presenter28:55

Right. I'm very, very comfortable. Now, I'm sure the the rewards in relationship terms are huge, but are do you think you're are you difficult to live with?

Sandie Shaw29:04

Sometimes, but it's not everybody.

Presenter29:06

Yes, I think they felt.

Presenter29:09

Let's have some more music then. What are we going to hear? This is.

Presenter29:12

Well, not a lot of people have heard this, Andy Shanta.

Sandie Shaw29:18

Really silly extract from a musical that I wrote with um Roger Cook today. It was the first time I'd actually listened to anything. But I chose one one of the silliest tracks from it. It's called Bananas and I think it would be totally suitable for an island.

Speaker 329:31

Bananas, bananas, bananas Bananas, they don't let you down. If all of your friends are bananas, you're the luckiest man in the town. Oh, if I had a million bananas.

Speaker 329:46

I'd still go on living this way Shake hands with a happy banana

Speaker 329:52

And eat a banana today. Hey, shake hands with a happy banana. Bananas, bananas.

Presenter30:01

That was Hervey Flowers, Roger Cook and my castaway Sandy Shaw singing Bananas. Sandy, we've talked a lot about you being the epitome of this ideal of sixties freedom, and yet it seems to have taken you this long to to sort of be in control of everything, to have, you know, your finances in order, your creative life in order, and and be doing all the things that we probably thought you were doing in the nineteen sixties.

Sandie Shaw30:26

Everything in life is a process. Things just don't happen, do they? I mean, I think what I've enjoyed is is is is the adventure. For me, my I've got this incredible appetite for life.

Sandie Shaw30:37

I would never have thought that such um such a journey would lead me to such a fantastic end. It was not

Presenter30:44

You mentioned that at the time you were going through your worst times you felt, for reasons I think many people will understand, that you you didn't want to share it with your parents. You didn't want to burden them with the truth of of your existence. Was there a time when you ever said you you know how bad it got, mum?

Sandie Shaw30:59

No.

Sandie Shaw31:00

No, I I looked after them till they both died. And um

Sandie Shaw31:05

No, they couldn't cope with that. It really wasn't right. They they were good parents to me. They gave me something to go for. They had they really, really loved each other and stuck by each other, and I I've always wanted that relationship, so they gave me that to aim for.

Presenter31:20

And did they li live to see your third marriage?

Sandie Shaw31:23

Yeah, my dad died tonight ju um uh died um just as I got myself together with Tony so I could actually say to Dad, it's infu it was the most incredible, wonderful time when he died. And um I was able to say to him, It's all right, Dad, you can go. I promise I'll look after mum and you know that I've looked after myself and you know Tony's gonna look after me.

Sandie Shaw31:42

And you can die now. So it's really nice to be able to reassure him like that, because he's again he's an old fashioned man and wants to look after his his girls.

Sandie Shaw31:50

So he wanted to make sure my mum was looked after and I was being taken care of, and then he could go with a peaceful attitude.

Presenter31:57

And as we know, you have three children. You're a grandmother now as well.

Presenter32:03

Can you believe that? No, I sort of can't believe it looking at you actually as you sit here in your dog tooth check shorts and your f fabulous jewelry and your glossy hair. I sort of can't believe you're a grandmother, but there we are. Do do you do you spend much time with your grandchildren? Do you babysit? Do you do all those things?

Sandie Shaw32:16

And

Presenter32:17

I tend to a lot of b

Sandie Shaw32:17

Babysitting? No, I don't. I'm sort of like I'm really sort of like the granny that you play with and do na naughty things with. Oh, one of those, lovely. Yeah.

Sandie Shaw32:28

Uh there is nothing I have no complaints about anything in my life at the moment. There's just there are I've got two years to spend finishing off before I um walk out into the sea.

Presenter32:38

Right. You say finishing off things, what you mean more cre you mean you're gonna make some more music, you're that sort of thing?

Sandie Shaw32:43

Um yes. And to have a final da-da!

Sandie Shaw32:47

I'm not sure how the dira is going to be. It will be unique to me.

Presenter32:50

So the dagonym diva not really such a diva after all.

Presenter32:53

Own.

Presenter32:56

You just watch.

Presenter32:59

Time now, then, Sandy Shaw, for your eighth disc. What's your final disc? My final disc? Yeah.

Sandie Shaw33:04

is um Here Comes the Sun. It's such an opening song, isn't it? It's just like just opens your life up, you just really want to smile.

Speaker 433:14

Here comes the sun

Speaker 433:17

Here comes the something I say it's alright

Speaker 433:26

It darling, it's been a long winter.

Speaker 433:34

Little darling

Speaker 433:36

It feels like

Speaker 433:38

Since it's been here.

Speaker 433:41

He comes as a

Presenter33:44

That's the Beatles, and Here Comes the Sun. So, Sandy, I'm going to give you a copy of the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take another book to the island as well. What would you like to take?

Presenter33:54

I'm going to take this one. Yeah.

Presenter33:56

Right?

Sandie Shaw33:56

It's called Lectures on the Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life. Okay. And it's written by Daisaka Wikeda, my Buddhist mentor. It's all about life and death. I read a bit every day.

Sandie Shaw34:10

And every time I read it I get more and more out of it.

Presenter34:13

Yeah. It's yours then. And can I ask you, do you want to take the Bible as well or not?

Presenter34:18

No. Oh. And you're allowed to take a luxury as well. What will your luxury be?

Sandie Shaw34:23

Um again, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to take my Oma Mori Gongs on, which is a tiny little object that I use for focusing my mind on when I chant. And that that way I could always keep my spirits up and I would really enjoy it. I'd be able to create value out of the whole experience. Okay, it's yours. And I would be rescued because that's what I want.

Presenter34:33

Ah

Presenter34:45

And if uh the waves were to crash to the shore and threaten to wash away your discs, which one disc would you want to save?

Sandie Shaw34:52

Can't be our second of all of them.

Presenter34:54

Yeah.

Presenter34:56

All right. Sandy Shaw, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.

Presenter35:48

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter35:51

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk/slash radio four