Sir Clive Woodward

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is Sir Clive Woodward. As England rugby coach, he memorably took the team to World Cup glory in 2003, the first ever Northern Hemisphere side to win the trophy. Capped twenty-one times himself, he well understands the pressure and the glory of top-flight sport, which is just as well. He's now involved in twenty-six individual disciplines for Team GB's twenty twelve Olympic effort. It is, he says, the coach's job to refuse to compromise. If you do, you will come second. So let's just be clear then, Sir Clive Woodward. It's not the taking part that counts, it is the winning.

Sir Clive Woodward1:15

I think it's both, Kirsty. I think at the top level it is the winning, but I think just below that there's a whole spectre of sport that is about the taking part, especially with with kids, it is taking part, it is enjoyment and it is the old Corinthian spirit. But the higher up you get, even at a young age, once you get into it's your especially if it's your livelihood, it is winning that's everything, that's why we love it.

Presenter1:31

Once you get

Presenter1:37

Talking about the pressure of the event, I want to take you back to probably the most scandalous episode in rugby's recent history, which was just last year. Tom Williams, the Harlequins player, crunched on a capsule of blood. It was a capsule of blood that had been acquired, I think, by the team Physio. The team's coach knew that he was doing it. I mean, the pressure was clearly felt at an incredible level by that team that somehow, come hell or high water, they had to win. What did you make of it at the time, given your experience in rugby?

Sir Clive Woodward2:08

I was actually watching on on on tele and if if you're involved in the game, it was like a comic book situation. As soon as it happened, you could you knew what had happened. You could see it. Because the the situation, it was just too much of a coincidence.

Presenter2:20

Because it's now the rule that if there's a blood injury the player has to come off, right?

Sir Clive Woodward2:23

The player the player can come off and they wanted to put a kicker on so there's a minute to go and he came off and there was just too much blood all over his face and it just it just didn't even stack up. I think um

Presenter2:25

Right.

Presenter2:35

Did you talk to people about that? Did you make a call and say, What what's going on?

Sir Clive Woodward2:38

Yeah, I've spoken to Dean Richards since about it. We met at a Leicester dinner. I just think Dean got it badly wrong. I don't think it was the pressure of the situation that obviously. And Dean's the coach, too. Sorry, Dean Richards is the coach. They'd obviously thought about it, they'd planned it, and that they just got it badly wrong. And I have to say, I think the punishment to Dean Richards was far in excess of actually, he was definitely guilty of being stupid and naive and obviously regrets it bitterly. But it wasn't the pressure of the situation. They were just breaking the rules knowingly to try and get a result.

Presenter2:48

And D.

Presenter3:08

Yeah.

Presenter3:16

You sound quite sanguine about it. I mean, do you just just is it just that nobody got found out before?

Sir Clive Woodward3:21

I think it was totally wrong. But the the thing is.

Presenter3:23

But yeah, it is.

Sir Clive Woodward3:27

Something you've been aware of before. There's all sorts of things happen in professional sport. To me, it was something if you're in the sport, you knew potentially could happen.

Presenter3:36

Okay.

Sir Clive Woodward3:36

But you you can't condone it. He made a massive error and uh but rugby will will come through it.

Presenter3:39

And uh

Presenter3:42

Let's have some music then, Clive. Tell me about the first track that we're going to hear today.

Sir Clive Woodward3:46

This is one that immediately brings tingles to my whole body. We used to have a a Friday night meeting before every every Test match, and we used to create a video to music. And this was the song that we played before we were playing Ireland for the Grand Slam in two thousand three.

Sir Clive Woodward4:04

You know, I was very, very clear if we could win the game tomorrow, which is a massive game because England were playing away to Ireland. We were going for the Grand Slam. Ireland were also going for a Grand Slam. This was a huge game. So, a lot of coaches would maybe sit in and say, It's your job as a coach to take pressure off players. In certain circumstances, there are. I thought at this moment I was going to put them under absolutely massive pressure. And we put this video together, which is about one shot, one opportunity, and in a way.

Presenter4:18

Yeah.

Sir Clive Woodward4:30

That's what professional sport's all about. You normally do just get one little moment in your life where you're either going to do it or not do it, and it's been able to do it under pressure. And I just wanted to put them under maximum pressure because this was all part of preparing for about six months' time, the World Cup final.

Speaker 34:45

This old rhapsody better go capture this moment and hope it don't give it lose its counter never let it go You only get one shot Do not miss your chance to blow Cause opportunity comes once in a lifetime you better lose yourself in the music the moment you hold it you better never let it go You only get one shot Do not miss your chance to blow. This opportunity comes once in a lifetime.

Presenter5:13

That was M and M and lose yourself and it makes your spine tingle, does it, Clive Woodward, listening to that piece of music? I want to ask you about the time that you've written about. You've called it rather brilliantly, I think, gladiator time. It's the point at which maybe twenty odd minutes or so before the big match, when you're in the dressing room, describe gladiator time to me.

Sir Clive Woodward5:35

I mean, I believe these guys are gladiators. I mean, they're absolutely heroes. I mean, we put a lot of stall on one-on-one battles. You know, what I used to do in the team room on the Getting the Friday night, write our team up and their team up and just pair everyone off. And, you know, you've got prop against prop, hooker against hooker, back row against back row. If you win your own personal battle, the chances are we're going to win. How personal do you make it? Very personal. Tell me. As personal as I can.

Sir Clive Woodward6:00

You mustn't go over the line in terms of emotion, because it's a thinky man's game.

Sir Clive Woodward6:04

Twenty minutes out you look around the changing room and it's it's absolutely

Sir Clive Woodward6:08

It's difficult to describe, but it's the most inspirational place, even as a coach, because you'd love to be a player, and it's great coaching, but it's nothing like playing. And it's very quiet funny enough. And you can see them just looking at each other and they're just getting themselves mentally prepared.

Presenter6:21

Um so it was what it was twenty second of November was the World Cup final, the the moment that so many rugby fans will remember so clearly um against Australia of course the last few minutes of the game seventeen points a beat. I mean it couldn't have been more dramatic. It was either it was the stuff that dreams are made of, certainly if you're a spectator.

Presenter6:42

Take me through what happens.

Sir Clive Woodward6:44

You know, again, I just admire the players. You know, I was extremely lucky. We're wonderful players. They were able to really th think correctly under pressure. So you've got a situation where we've got a minute to go. You know, I'm now down on the pitch side. And yeah, Johnny Wilkinson is the ultimate hero for getting the drop goal. But but in my position, when you're seeing what everybody did, right down from Ben Kaye making the correct line out call, Steve Thompson throwing the ball into the line out, Lewis Moody catching it. And then we had this move, we just call it zigzag, and it's all about trying to get a drop goal and you're just trying to punch left, punch right. And you see every player, because it just needs one player to do not think, to hit a ruck at the wrong angle, get word penalty, and suddenly we

Presenter6:52

Yeah.

Presenter7:22

Yeah, we're

Sir Clive Woodward7:24

we the the move would stop, they get a penalty, they kick to our half, we can lose the World Cup. So that was the ultimate minute for me of of the team. And everybody delivered it absolutely correctly.

Presenter7:35

So it was Martin Johnson, it was Matt Dawson, and then it was that final beautiful side.

Sir Clive Woodward7:39

Yeah, it's funny as I said. I was still saying go further because the referee can't blow his whistle in rugby until the team goes dead. And the whole idea is to just drive the ball right under the post so you can't miss. And no one loves Johnny Wilkinson more than me, but he had missed three drop goals at this point. So if he'd done his job probably before that, we probably wouldn't have a go for this drama. He was still quite a long way out. This wasn't an easy drop goal. Also, it was on his wrong foot. So we hit it, in my opinion, just a little bit early, but the rest is history.

Presenter8:09

It is history of uh those those seconds then where you were in the lead but the whistle had not yet been blown. What were you thinking?

Sir Clive Woodward8:16

Well, I was thinking a lot because you could see the players celebrating and the one player who got himself back in position correctly was Martin Johnson. And it was a whole team. Because the Australians had one more kick off. If they had won the kick off and won the ball,

Presenter8:25

Yeah.

Sir Clive Woodward8:27

Well they could have scored a try and everyone was out of position.

Sir Clive Woodward8:31

But can you imagine if we'd lost that restart where we hadn't actually reacted that well in uh after Johnny's drop goal,'cause we were out of position.

Presenter8:40

Um do you remember, um I imagine you must arriving back in England, arriving at Heathrow tens of thousands of people there to greet you.

Sir Clive Woodward8:48

Yeah, because I mean, it was five or four o'clock in the morning or something and we just couldn't envisage what was happening. So we walked out one by one and I remember walking out with Jay and my wife and we're just oh my goodness. All I kept saying to people, what on earth are you doing here? It's four o'clock in the morning, whatever time it was. And I saw so many friends from my local village who had just driven down there, but there was, I think, ten thousand people and it was quite extraordinary.

Presenter9:10

Tell me then what your second disc is today, what have you chosen for track number two?

Sir Clive Woodward9:14

The second disc is very much going back to early days and it this is all this is all about a pretty tough time of my life, but sort of a time that I'm quite proud of because I I came through it strongly. It's one of my favorite tracks and I love Bob Dylan.

Speaker 49:29

I can't shoot them anymore.

Speaker 49:36

That long black cloud is coming down

Speaker 49:43

Feel I'm knocking on heaven's door

Speaker 49:50

Got nine knockin' on devil's door

Presenter9:55

That was Bob Dylan and Knocking on Heaven's Door. You said, Clive Woodward, going into that, that it reminds you of a bit of a rough time in your life. What does it remind you of? What was the rough time?

Sir Clive Woodward10:04

Well, it wasn't rough, it was just my kind of school days, which were kind of a tough time, which I'm pretty pleased I came through s strongly.

Presenter10:11

Tell me about your school, then.

Sir Clive Woodward10:13

There was a naval boarding school on Anglesey in North Wales called HMS Conway. I went there and I was 13. I was there till I was 18, so it was five years of my life.

Sir Clive Woodward10:22

Um

Sir Clive Woodward10:23

And, you know, as you can imagine, a n a naval boarding school was it was a pretty tough environment.

Presenter10:28

You ran away a few times.

Sir Clive Woodward10:29

Yeah, when I first got there, a couple of times, I went over the wall, as you might say.

Presenter10:33

What made what made you run?

Sir Clive Woodward10:35

Well, one, I was kind of missing home, but two, I just didn't didn't like the school. You know, I'd arrived there, I'd a huge passion for football and they just played rugby and just didn't like the school.

Presenter10:44

I mean, d when you ran away, did you run as far as home? Did you get home?

Sir Clive Woodward10:45

I mean

Sir Clive Woodward10:47

Oh, I got home got home twice, yeah, which is a long way'cause it was from Anglesey to Linton on Ooh's in Yorkshire then. So it was it was a hitchhike. Yeah. And we had even then had a naval uniform, so even at thirteen I had was dressed in a a midshipman's uniform.

Presenter10:48

I'm glad.

Presenter10:53

Yeah.

Presenter10:55

Yeah.

Presenter11:00

Wow.

Sir Clive Woodward11:01

So uh if you're by the side of the road in the midshipman's uniform you got lifts very easily.

Presenter11:05

And so you arrived on the doorstep at home. What was the conversation?

Sir Clive Woodward11:08

Well, it just you just you don't don't really like it and well, you're not getting very long'cause it was probably in the first two or three weeks. So, you know, got back on the train, went back again and, um

Sir Clive Woodward11:19

Got on with it. I can see now why my parents sent me to school, but it was.

Presenter11:22

Why? Why did they?

Sir Clive Woodward11:24

Well, I mean, quite simply, all all I did was play football.

Sir Clive Woodward11:26

And was was quite good. And there was a conversation that took place between the headmaster and the uh my father basically saying, Look, your your child is.

Sir Clive Woodward11:35

Certainly very, very bright in terms of O levels, A levels, university, but he's just going nowhere because all you want to do is play football. And because my dad was in the services, he had the option to send me away to school for no charge. So I was taken away from the local school and sent off to a boarding school at the age of thirteen. It was a tough school. It's funny'cause I've I still speak to some people from the school and there's some people I know love the school, thought it was just fantastic, it was the making of them. Didn't do me any harm, apart from sort of toughening me up, I guess, but but also it just made me a little bit more distant from my parents, which I kind of regret.

Sir Clive Woodward12:09

But when you go away like that, you you just suddenly became t I just became so independent, even at thirteen, fourteen, I just

Sir Clive Woodward12:15

Yeah, I was just gonna do everything on my own from that that moment on.

Presenter12:17

And what what are your memories of your dad then? Was he away a lot, on duty?

Sir Clive Woodward12:21

No, I was very close to my dad. I mean, be very clear, I you know, love my dad to bits. He's the my my both my parents have passed away. I was very, very close to him.

Presenter12:22

Yeah.

Sir Clive Woodward12:28

But he had to make this decision. And I can remember it clearly. I wasn't the

Sir Clive Woodward12:32

the best pupil, to put it mildly,'cause I just didn't want to do any studies, wanted to be out playing games and football, and that's what I was going to do.

Presenter12:38

You would have been How Howell Ten when England won the World Cup.

Sir Clive Woodward12:41

Uh 66, yeah. Remember it now. I can name the team. I can remember every moment of the game.

Presenter12:42

Yeah.

Sir Clive Woodward12:46

I was just football nuts and, you know, I'm obviously

Presenter12:50

Hmm.

Sir Clive Woodward12:50

was good at sport and that was the sport I wanted to play.

Presenter12:52

Tell me then about the third track, what have you chosen?

Sir Clive Woodward12:54

This song just reminds me of holiday times and having great times with our three great kids. So this is a song wherever it comes on the radio, I just blast it away and it's just always warm feelings about holidays and kids and just just a great song. And again, a bit like Bob Dynamo, I love Rona Keaton.

Speaker 413:13

So don't find it

Speaker 413:18

Life isn't on a ghost, I just gotta ride it.

Speaker 413:26

I need you home.

Speaker 413:29

So stop my limb

Speaker 413:34

Our love is a mystery, girl, let's get beside

Presenter13:39

Ronan Keating and Life as a Roller Coaster and Memories There, Clive Woodward, of you and your three kids and your wife and all the happy holidays that you've had. You speak clearly about your family with such warmth. Is it important to you that you're very close to your kids?

Sir Clive Woodward13:53

Yeah, it's been very important because um

Presenter13:55

I'm thinking now about the fact that you said you went to school and you felt having been close to your dad suddenly there was a great gulf between you after the school.

Sir Clive Woodward14:02

Yeah, I was I was always close to my dad even even even after that, but I j I just became so independent and I was probably quite difficult, uh to put it mildly, because I just became so independent.

Presenter14:13

What about what about brothers and sisters? Yeah, brothers and sisters.

Sir Clive Woodward14:15

Yeah, I've got an older older sister Linda and a younger brother Colin. Again, we're quite spread out. Linda's seven, eight years older than me, and my brother's seven, eight years younger than me. I'm not sure the exact figure. So again, we're close, but we're not as close as probably a lot of brothers and sisters, mainly because we're spread out with age, but more because we just got fractured with me going away to school. And I think to go back to your initial question, then you know what I'm so pleased about with my children now, they're very, very friendly, they're very close to each other. Jess, Joe, Freddie, they're mates, which I've always wanted. But you know, we've been very lucky. They've all gone to the same sort of schools growing up. They've got great friends at home. You know, you're just very pleased and proud of that and you just hope they're they're happy.

Presenter14:54

Do you think that that sort of pattern of isolation that you experienced as a teenager was something that contributed to your effectiveness later on? In a way it was the sort of negative of that that that that allowed you to turn those characteristics into positives in sport of being incredibly focussed, determined, sometimes so sort of hermetically sealed that nothing else matters?

Sir Clive Woodward15:15

Yeah, I think there's a lot in this. There's no doubt, you know, people have gone to try and find out where does talent come from and

Sir Clive Woodward15:21

I think the environment you come from has a huge bearing. There's there's usually someone on the way who said, Well, you're not going to be successful, you're not going to do this, and it's almost like I'm going to show you. Then you and you become this very single minded person that said, I'm going to prove them wrong.

Presenter15:36

Let's have some music, what's next?

Sir Clive Woodward15:38

This next one was the start of probably me starting to trying to prove people wrong because I was very independent at school, having to look after myself, having to just get through this. And I got on with it and you know, became started to play rugby and became very vague at rugby and that became a passion. This is this is something that reminds me when I first left school. I managed to get a job in London with a bank. I was eighteen in London, you know, absolutely out there. I joined Harlequin's Rugby Club, which again was fantastic because I was playing some good rugby and just really this was right, me this was the start of right, I am going to do something with my life, and it's just just a great track.

Speaker 416:18

See ya, so what you get You made your fetch, your fat are laid They choose your leaders and place your trust As their lies will shut down and their promises lost Those are hidden machines with paper rockets and guns And the public wants what the public gets But I don't give up the society wants I'm going on the ground Worlds play up and start to pound I'm going on the ground

Speaker 416:43

So that the bullets are still

Presenter16:47

That was the jam and going underground. There's a lot to cram in, Clive Woodward, so I'm going to sort of telescope your life at this point. You'd moved to Leicester in your early twenties. You were playing for Leicester Tigers, and of course it was a time when rugby wasn't professional, so you also had a real job, and your real job

Presenter17:04

I had quite an influence on your attitude to sport. Explain to me what it was about the job that be began to shape your attitude to the game you were playing on the field.

Sir Clive Woodward17:12

Well, I went to Loughborough University and then after Loughborough again, Loughborough was just a fantastic four years of my life. It was just just brilliant. But I was playing rugby now to a high level, and though that was amateur, it was it was moving into prof say professionalism, you know, there was big crowds and uh following rugby in the international scene. When I left Loughborough, Leicester wanted me to play for them. But I joined Xerox, which was you know an American photocopier company. Xerox were brilliant because their training, certainly in those days, was some of the the leading training you could do in in sales and management and leadership.

Sir Clive Woodward17:47

So I'm I'm working for this incredibly professional, hardworking, driven company in terms of results and targets and

Sir Clive Woodward17:54

And I loved it. I absolutely thrived on it. And then you're in the rugby world. Leicester was brilliant because we had an outstanding coach in Chalky White, another outstanding coach in Loughborough and Jim Greenwood. So I had these two great coaches, but then playing for England, it just seemed so amateur, you know, really amateur with a in the in the worst sort of way. It was just so hit to miss. So you you're coming from this incredibly driven corporate environment which is all about winning and results, you know, league tables.

Sir Clive Woodward18:19

But then the England scene was just so amateur. So there there you are playing in front of seventy five thousand people at Twickenham against Wales and Scotland and you're all at stake and I wanted to win.

Sir Clive Woodward18:28

And

Sir Clive Woodward18:29

You know, I have to say, I d I didn't get the impression it was all about that. It was just

Presenter18:32

So what did you do? You tried to introduce some of the the this sort of goal orientated performance to your teammates or to yourself just

Sir Clive Woodward18:37

No, I would you know, I was I was new in the team. I was twenty four, I'd just come into the team, we had a very experienced team. Um I was extreme. My first four games we won the Grand Slam.

Presenter18:42

Plenty

Sir Clive Woodward18:48

Including beating your team up in Scotland in the 1980s. So I kind of started off in the England rugby scene with a.

Presenter18:50

Thanks for that.

Presenter18:55

And that was a glorious moment for you, let's not forget.

Sir Clive Woodward18:57

It was a fantastic moment, and they went on the Lions tour back at that, and you just think, well, hang on, this is serious stuff we're playing for here. And also, you've only got this one moment in your life you're playing, and you want to win. You don't want to look back and say, Well, I played for England and played twenty times and lost fifteen because we just didn't prepare properly. I realised this was only a short window of my life. I wanted to be on a winning team, but I look back on my England playing career with a certain amount of regrets because we just didn't want to take the world on. You know, one of my own goals was I was just determined that no player who was playing under me would ever kind of look back or write a book and say, Well, you know, we didn't do this or we should have done that, or we didn't throw the kitchen sink at it. And that was all based on my own experiences. And that's what, again, drives you on to make sure you deliver for the team, to make sure they've got every chance of winning. Seeing the players now and then seeing what we did, especially with England, you just go, Wow, I'd have loved to have done that. You know, the players thought it was tough. I just thought you're the luckiest people in the world because you're doing something you love, you're getting paid to do it, and you've got no excuses, and that's all you want as a special sportsman. You've got every chance of being successful here.

Presenter19:59

Let's have some more music, then, Clive, what have we got next?

Sir Clive Woodward20:02

The next one, um this again was a particularly happy time in my life. This is sort of really the the Leicester years, but also moving down to Australia, meeting meeting Jane. Again, it just always brings a smile to my face when uh I hear this track.

Speaker 420:15

There's no reason to

Speaker 420:18

Should always be there.

Speaker 420:21

Don't put the faith in what you believe in That's getting you nowhere

Speaker 420:27

Cause it hates you never confirm

Speaker 420:31

Don't let down

Speaker 420:32

Just look like glasses always there

Speaker 420:37

Just to remind you to fall

Speaker 420:41

Even in just

Presenter20:44

That was Phil Collins and Two Hearts, and you say happy memories there, Clive Woodward, of you and Jane moving to Manley in Australia. How did you actually meet before you moved?

Sir Clive Woodward20:53

Uh we first met at uh university, fell mad in love with us, still am, very lucky. Thirty years later, we're still close as we've ever been, so uh just feel very, very lucky. Simple as that.

Presenter21:04

You've said about Jane that without her your career might not have happened. What d what do you mean by that?

Sir Clive Woodward21:09

She's just been very supportive. I mean, she's an incredibly bright girl. She's a hundred times cleverer than I am. And just the advice she's given me on the way, I'd say ninety five percent of the time I've taken it and the five percent of the time I haven't, I've probably regretted it.

Presenter21:22

Can you give me a an example of her wise counsel? When has she sort of said to you something that you thought, you know, I'm really glad I listened to her there?

Sir Clive Woodward21:29

Well, no, just just everything. She's kind of the calming influence and

Sir Clive Woodward21:34

You know, her favorite word is just always high ground, just take the high ground, don't get involved. Probably the one time I didn't take her advice, which I regret, is when I actually left the

Sir Clive Woodward21:42

the England job, you know, I I I resigned for for various reasons.

Sir Clive Woodward21:47

And the final press conference, which she kind of briefed me on, and said, This is the moment to thank everybody. You know, we've been incredibly lucky. It's you resigning. They're not getting rid of you. They don't want you to go. And that was what I decided to do, going into the press conference. And after that lasted about 30 seconds, and something was said in the press conference by somebody else, and then I just absolutely just tore into them. Remind us. Well, you know, I just really went into them in terms of why I was leaving. And that wasn't the time to do that. Because, you know, without Francis Barr and Graham Cateman, and the rugby football unit I wouldn't have achieved anything, I would have done. And they'd supported me brilliantly. And the players, especially, you know, I decided to resign. It wasn't the time for.

Sir Clive Woodward22:29

Cheap shots, or to kind of make points, it was a time to shake hands and move on.

Presenter22:34

Was it was it a live press conference?

Sir Clive Woodward22:36

Oh, it's absolute life.

Presenter22:37

Was Jane watching it?

Sir Clive Woodward22:38

She was sitting about twenty yards in front of me, and I could just see her face going whiter and whiter. I've done hundreds and hundreds of press conferences and that was the only one where I think I got it badly, badly wrong, and that was totally against her her advice, you know, and she's just looking there. I could just see her horrified in what I was doing.

Presenter22:55

What did you say when you came off the the podium and and spoke to Harry?

Sir Clive Woodward22:58

Well, we just got we got in the car and outsider and we just sat in silent for a minute and she looked at me and she just said, Well, that's that. You've just burnt all your bridges. There's no way you'll ever come back here. You've just completely torn them to ribbons. You know, you may be right what you're saying. That was just the wrong, wrong time to do it. And it was, it was live, it was live on Sky, live on BB. This was a big.

Sir Clive Woodward23:18

Big thing, you know, the World Cup winning coach, I d I decided to leave and this is a big press conference and I got it badly wrong. And uh, you know, I regre I regret it now.

Presenter23:26

You you feel you were underappreciated for what you for the heights you'd taken them to, did you?

Sir Clive Woodward23:30

No, it wasn't the case, it wasn't after appreciation. I just absolutely realized post post World Cup, we had to now take the whole organization to another level, say this is what we're going to do now, because the rest of the world, I promise you, is not happy that England's won the World Cup.

Sir Clive Woodward23:43

You know, we may be celebrating, but they're not. So, whilst we're celebrating, they're all now planning.

Sir Clive Woodward23:48

Dubbin' refers.

Sir Clive Woodward23:49

And I wanted to make some radical and there were radical changes, but that's what I thought had to be made for England to maintain our position, and they just didn't want to listen to me.

Presenter23:57

Now obviously, if I had them sitting around the the table and it was a discussion, they might have a quite different perspective. But from your perspective, did you think I mean, famously these days in your office, as you go into your organization, it says better never stops. I mean, did you have that feeling that

Presenter24:13

Whatever you had done.

Presenter24:14

There was always something that could be a higher achievement.

Sir Clive Woodward24:18

The moment you've not got that mindset, Kirk, you're going to come second. So I was happy to take a week, couple of weeks off, and then I wanted to get back into it.

Presenter24:21

Yeah.

Presenter24:26

You said that when you got into the car with Jane, she said, Well, that's that then. You've burnt your bridges. I mean, w if the bridges had still been there, would you like to have gone back at some point and tried to to take them farther again?

Sir Clive Woodward24:38

Um

Sir Clive Woodward24:39

Yeah, I love rugby. I'm on the board at Leicester. I'm still very passionate about the game. You you kind of follow the game. You know, whether I do the same on hindsight again now, I'm not so sure. But at the time it seemed very, very clear, but I just didn't feel they were listening to me. But, you know, your blood's still got rugby in it. I think it'd be a lot easier for me if England had gone on to great heights and won the World Cup again and got the number one ranking. You kind of look at it and you just and especially when you see the team.

Sir Clive Woodward25:06

That we could have, and you see players who can't play because they're injured,'cause they've been overplayed at clubs. You cannot play the amount of rugby that they're playing at the moment and think the international team is going to tap up and beat New Zealand and South Africa. It's just not going to happen. At the moment, the players still, our top players, are just playing far too much, and the team that seems to suffer still is the England team. And I'm just trying to fix that and didn't do a very, very good job in my negotiating skills.

Presenter25:34

Let's take a break for some music then, Clive, what have you chosen next?

Sir Clive Woodward25:37

This is really my Australia song. As as you said, I had five fantastic years in Australia. We went in nineteen eighty five. Jess and Joe were both born in Australia. And again, just wonderful memories of a brilliant five years of my life in a in a wonderful country with with Jane.

Speaker 425:53

She just fills my heart with yours. She makes my day. She just has to smile to blow my grandchildren away. She just has to touch my hand to make me stay. She's all good, loving once.

Presenter26:20

Robert Palmer and She Makes My Day. It's it's Sir Clive Woodward, of course, now. Tell tell me about the day you found out you were going to be a Sir.

Sir Clive Woodward26:28

I just came home and and in December after the the World Cup in November and

Presenter26:33

Yeah.

Sir Clive Woodward26:33

Jane was just woof.

Sir Clive Woodward26:35

Wagging this letter in front of my face.

Presenter26:37

What does it look like the left?

Sir Clive Woodward26:38

It's very, very plain. It's very matter of fact. And we're we're uh I can't.

Presenter26:42

Had she opened it?

Sir Clive Woodward26:43

Yeah, she'd opened it, she'd read it. Of course, she's young with everything of mine. So the honor was absolutely mind-blowing. I could never even have dreamt about it.

Sir Clive Woodward26:53

You know, again, back to family because, you know, they they had been through a lot. It's sometimes not the uh easiest thing being

Sir Clive Woodward26:58

BNK is married to me and kids of mine. But, um, you know, it was just a great acknowledgement for the whole family, which I was very proud to accept.

Presenter27:04

Y your two elder children had been out to see the great victory in Australia, hadn't they? I mean, was that they sort of came out at the last minute, did they?

Sir Clive Woodward27:11

Yeah, again, we couldn't tell anybody because they're at school, we we weren't about to say we were coming out to the World Cup or the World Cup final because that was we could have lost in the quarter finals to Wales, which which we nearly did. But they both knew that if we got to the final they were going to be leaving school that afternoon and on the plane. So you can imagine those two, once they saw we'd beaten France the semi-finals, they both got on the plane and got themselves out there. The upsides of what I do and what their dad does far outweighs the downsides. And you know, as Jess would always say to me, you know, how many kids have Johnny Wilkinson come for tea?

Presenter27:45

So your job now, the the official title is Director of Performance for Britain's Olympic Sports Men and Women. That's rather grand.

Sir Clive Woodward27:52

It's a grand title.

Presenter27:53

Yes, I w I would guess you're not intimidated by it, though.

Sir Clive Woodward27:56

I'm not kind of intimidated, but also it's it's one removed. I mean the the actual performance of the team is very much led by the national governing bodies and all the various coaches. The the British Olympic Association take the team to the games. So I kind of o oversee the performance side of that. And we were doing some really creative stuff in terms of coaching and coach development. But you're one removed from coaching.

Presenter28:20

And the aim is to come what is fourth in the medals table, that would be considered to be a great achievement.

Sir Clive Woodward28:25

Well that's not my aim. I think there are those figures around. But I'm very straightforward with sport and targets. If all these athletes at the Olympic Games and everyone does their personal best, really on that day, that one moment, that one shot, that one opportunity, if they deliver, that the medal table will take care of itself. And I'm very, very confident that we've got the talent, the coaching talent, the knowledge now to have a fantastic twenty twelve.

Presenter28:50

Given how goal orientated you are and given that better never stops and all that stuff, is it difficult for you to acknowledge indeed do you acknowledge that the golden period of your career is gone? It was that moment in two thousand three? Or do you still think that you could reach a point that is somehow better than that?

Sir Clive Woodward29:09

No, I just think my one of my strengths is I'm always I never look back. That was a moment which I'm incredibly proud of. Made some fantastic friends through it, and it was a great period of our life. But you you move on. My career has just sort of happened. So no, I am I mean loving what I'm doing and twenty twelve is going to be be big. I'm just very lucky to be part of it.

Sir Clive Woodward29:32

whatever happens in the future happen in the future. But no, I think winning the World Cup was was certainly not the um the kind of I like to think I I'd wouldn't get up tomorrow if I thought that was that was I was never going to get anywhere near that again. That was a great, great moment. But you've got to move on and that's that's I've always been proud of myself on being able to do that.

Presenter29:49

Let's have disc number seven then. What are we going to listen to now?

Sir Clive Woodward29:52

This is back to rugby. This is to me just reminds me really of just all the great players that I had playing with us. And we used to have music on the bus going to the game. This would be the second last track before we got off the bus. You know, I can look around the bus now and see some players sitting really focused. You see Lawrence Delalio in the middle of the aisle dancing to this. He's a good dancer. Lawrence is an awesome dancer. He's the brilliant guy all around. The music, you know, this just resonates with great players, great coaches, and just a great tameral life again.

Presenter30:14

Okay, good dog.

Presenter30:57

Chicane and salt water and memories of the England team bust Sir Clive Woodward. So life on the island then, I mean you did you did survive the boarding school, indeed it shaped you and your your determination in many significant ways. I'm wondering how you'd manage a lone, castaway on the island with not really any goals, not any targets, nobody to watch your performance, nobody to see whether you'd achieved or not. That that would be tricky.

Sir Clive Woodward31:19

It would be very tricky, but I would set myself my own targets to

Presenter31:22

Would you what would they be what might they be?

Sir Clive Woodward31:25

Well, it's like everything. You you you you can't change what you can't change. So uh if if that's where I was, I'd have to just sit down and reflect on it and um say, Right, I've got to make the best of this and and get get get on with it, but also thinking that I will be off this island at some stage and I was gonna come off in a better shape than I'm on it.

Presenter31:40

What do you do, um not on the island now, but just here on this island, what what do you do to to stop? Are there times when you ever just sort of stop and contemplate life? Stare at a wall?

Sir Clive Woodward31:50

Yeah, the the the one of my biggest pleasures is is we've got two fantastic dogs called Sally and Sid. So to walk those two two dogs uh with Jane, we we live in a lovely part of the world in Cookham, we can walk down by the river. Uh just to walk those and walk down to the pub, there's a pub down by the river we go to, that that is really my unwinding place. And yeah, I can walk for hours with those uh two two dogs and and Jane and it's just a great time where I just calm down.

Presenter32:14

Let's have your final disc then, what have we got?

Sir Clive Woodward32:16

I've always prided myself on looking forward and I've had a fantastic life. I feel very, very lucky with Jane and my family. And this again is just the track that I just think it's all about. It's all about today. You know, if it all ended this afternoon for me, heaven forbid, you know, I'd have absolutely no regrets. And this track especially, it's just a great song by a fantastic group. And this is what it's all about. It's about the next part of your life and the next few hours almost. And I just love this record.

Speaker 432:47

Yeah.

Presenter33:15

That was Take That and Greatest Day. So, Clive, I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one book of your own. What's your book going to be?

Sir Clive Woodward33:23

My my my book it's by a guy called Dave Peltz and it's um the short game in golf. So that'd be the book I'd take'cause golf's the one game I play wrong and he still think I can play quite well. What do you play?

Presenter33:34

What do you play off? What do you think?

Sir Clive Woodward33:34

They're six at the moment. I'd love to get much better if I could just play more time. It's just a great, great game. And

Presenter33:38

Yeah.

Sir Clive Woodward33:43

This would also give me time to redo that.

Presenter33:45

I'm imagining then that your luxury is going to be connected.

Sir Clive Woodward33:48

But who? It is

Presenter33:48

So you're gonna be very frustrated.

Sir Clive Woodward33:49

Very straightforward.

Presenter33:49

Mary's great

Presenter33:52

Okay.

Sir Clive Woodward33:53

So though that would just keep me totally focused and set targets and all tho all that stuff you spoke about in terms of making sure I stayed competitive and stayed fit and uh I'd be as happy as I could be.

Presenter34:04

Okay, it's yours. And i if you had to save just one of these eight disks today, which disk would it be?

Sir Clive Woodward34:11

I think the last track, take that greatest day, because I think life is all about today. Don't get bogged down with the past. And also, don't look too far in the future, because you may miss.

Sir Clive Woodward34:22

What's happening today, and that's what it's all about.

Presenter34:24

Sir Clive Woodward, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island disc.

Sir Clive Woodward34:27

Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Presenter35:16

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc.co.uk slash Radio Four.