Gok Wan

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the stylist Gok Wan.

Presenter0:37

He seemed to spring perfectly created on to our television screens, all sculptured hair, designer glasses, and an almost architectural sense of poise.

Presenter0:47

Dispensing fashion advice and hugs in equal measure, he aims, he says, to make women feel like women, not like turkeys. Yet, although he made his name as a stylist, his special talent isn't, it seems, for fashion, but for gaining people's trust.

Presenter1:03

He understands only too well the emotional journey he is asking women to make.

Presenter1:08

The first person he had to transform was himself, and that's very much work in progress. I'm still that insecure little fat boy inside, he says, who's a bit scared of people not approving of what he's doing. Uh so, Gotwan, you worked as a stylist a good while before this somewhat stellar television career took off. I I wonder if you were surprised when you started working in television at how emotional the journey is that you go on with these women?

Gok Wan1:33

I had no idea at all. And when the show started and I started hearing from the first words from my lovely women, they were saying things like, you know, I hate my body. And I, you know, I haven't had sex for four years. And my husband's never seen me naked. And then all the tears started coming. And I had no idea at all that the emotion was going to be there, the tone was going to be there. Something clicked inside my head. And at that point, I hadn't told the press or told anyone that I used to be big. And I almost went into a trance. It was like a memory of how I felt about my body. I never expected that to happen.

Presenter2:08

What about this the self-loathing then that you witnessed in these women and continue to witness? I it's it's profound and deeply felt. Did did it surprise you to hear women talk about themselves in those terms?

Gok Wan2:19

Um, I don't think I was really surprised. I was shocked that.

Gok Wan2:25

These women had never had a voice before. Right. Because when I was overweight, when I was younger, I always managed to articulate it in some way. So it was either through creating a very big personality and becoming larger than life, you know, the barriers. Actually, you can stand just there and you're fine there for now. And then later on, if I get to know you better, you can come a bit closer. It was my way of doing it. But with these women, they hadn't done any of that at all. They'd lived in their shells and hadn't discussed it with their partners, hadn't discussed it with their friends, and didn't even know what their bodies look like. How to look good naked, of course, is.

Presenter2:27

Right.

Speaker 42:34

So, I think it's a good idea.

Speaker 22:34

Did you?

Speaker 22:37

Very b

Presenter3:02

It's the show that made you a T V star.

Presenter3:06

I can't imagine the amount of courage it takes for these women to to strip off in front of not just a stranger but a television crew and of course uh all of the millions of people who are watching. Would you ever do it yourself?

Gok Wan3:10

Just

Gok Wan3:12

Or

Gok Wan3:14

The watching

Gok Wan3:17

Um, would I ever do it myself? I do you know what, I think I faced my body demons. Not entirely. I'll always have hang ups about my body. In oh I'm thirty five now. I've I was fatter for longer than I've been thin now, if you see what I mean. I do. Um

Speaker 23:30

I do.

Gok Wan3:32

And I I had to go through how to look good naked personally with myself on my own for a long time. And I don't need to face the demons that I've already dealt with, even though I've I'm sure over the years I've had to face them more. And I'm not saying that these women

Gok Wan3:47

come on the show for any other reason than the fact that they feel that they've got nowhere else to go. And because they write into you to ask to come on. They do, absolutely. I mean the applications are enormous. You know, we get tens of thousands per series.

Presenter3:52

Yeah.

Presenter3:54

They do, absolutely.

Gok Wan3:59

They are suffering and it's affecting their relationships, it's affecting their work, you know, all that kind of stuff. And they genuinely feel that there isn't anywhere else to go to.

Presenter4:06

We'd better have some music, haven't we? Tell me about the first track that you've chosen today then.

Gok Wan4:10

Okay, so this particular song, Thorny My Side, by The Arrhythmics, is one of my favourite songs because it reminds me of my sister. She's a huge part of my life still. And I remember playing this song and I remember thinking to myself, and I must have been four or five years old, thinking to myself, one day I'm going to be as cool as my sister. And just by her playing this song made me feel as if I could be as cool as her.

Speaker 44:33

Don't be my side. You know that's all you ever were.

Speaker 44:41

Bundle the last, you know that all that it was worth

Speaker 44:49

I should've known better, but I trusted you ever.

Speaker 44:57

You should've known better.

Presenter5:04

That was the eurhythmics and thorn in my sight and and memories there of what teenage years and listening listening to that in your bedroom, listening to it.

Gok Wan5:11

Yeah, kind of. Listen, with my sister actually. So I I remember stealing her album. And I have to say, for anyone that w that wants a trip down the eighties memory lane, it's a brilliant, brilliant album and it does have such significant memories of of happy times with with my sister.

Presenter5:24

Um you you're not looking at all eighties today. You're bang up today. Tell me take me through what you're wearing today.

Gok Wan5:29

take you through what I'm wearing. Oh no, Joe. I actually thought to myself today, I'm off camera for the first day, I'm going country casual. So for me, this is really casual for me. So I'm wearing um boots and I'm wearing

Presenter5:41

You can't just say boots, give a styler.

Gok Wan5:42

Okay, I'm wearing black boots with a buckle on, which are an ankle boot. I'm wearing a pair of slightly oversized combat black again, which have a harem cut, which means they've got a lower gusset, which gives you all that kind of bagginess. I'm then wearing a shrug around my neck, and I'm also wearing a black, very, very sheer-knit roll neck jumper and my black glasses, and my hair's down, and I'm wearing a waffle coat. This for me is very casual, let me tell you. It's very casual.

Speaker 45:54

Right.

Presenter6:08

Yeah.

Presenter6:10

Um are you one of those people like the rest of us then, I imagine not, who gets up in the morning and says, What the hell am I going to wear?

Gok Wan6:16

I suffer from really bad clothing OCD. And so I organise on a Sunday, I work out all of my outfits for the whole week. So that includes filming the show and then also the personal stuff when I'm going out with friends, going to a due in the evening. And so it's about it works out about 20 outfits a week. And I log everything so I know where I've worn it to the last time I wore it.

Gok Wan6:37

I log it all on the computer. It's terrible, wasn't it? But I love dressing up. I still do feel like the human Barbie.

Presenter6:43

I don't know if you uh do you if you do things like decorating or gardening or but do you do you even think about what you're going to wear for that? Do you think, well, I'll put my super luxe casual t-shirt on from absolutely.

Gok Wan6:50

Yeah.

Gok Wan6:51

Casual

Gok Wan6:53

Absolutely. Everything, everything I do, I mean, down to driving my car, I work out the outfit that looks best with the car. I mean, really, it's bad. It's it's terrible. So I know if I'm going shopping, what would I look like when I'm getting outside my car at Dover Street Market? I see. And so I know that I'm going to wear the black trench with the sunglasses with the heeled boots and the skinny jeans. Or I think to myself, I'm going to Selfridge, so it's going to be in the car park. It's a quick rush. So then I know that I'm going to wear probably oversized jeans and a big pair of chunky boots and a fleece or something, you know, just something so it's slightly more footballers-why?

Presenter6:54

Everything

Gok Wan7:24

Ha ha.

Presenter7:24

You mentioned your car. Is your car black?

Gok Wan7:26

My car is black.

Presenter7:27

Right. And everything it seems to me that you wear I can't find a photograph of you. I I did find a photograph of you wearing a grey T-shirt under a black jumper.

Gok Wan7:34

And this is I do wear a lot of black. I found myself now on networking sites tweeting my outfit, what I'm going to be wearing and asking people, What do you think of this? Do you think I should go Rock Chick or do you think I should go sixties mod?

Presenter7:46

Let's have some music. Tell me about your second disc.

Gok Wan7:49

This is the first seven-inch record. You call it a record. It's a record, absolutely. A seven-inch record that I bought. And I remember saving up all my pocket money. And my sister took me into town and we went to Ainsley's small independent record shop in Leicester Town Centre. And I remember as proud as punch buying this record, and I still have it at my mum's. It was almost like my rites of passage. It's just that I am an adult. I bought my first record. So this is Biddy Joel.

Presenter7:53

On the record now,

Speaker 27:55

Uh

Speaker 48:19

Uptown girl, she's been living in her uptown world. I bet she never had a backstreet guy.

Speaker 48:29

I bet her mother never told her why

Speaker 48:32

All the time for the uptown

Speaker 48:36

She's been living in her white, gray world as long as anyone would hot her channel.

Presenter8:49

That was Billy Joel, of course, and Uptown Girl. So you were uh at home in Leicester, Gokwan. Tell me, what was your house like?

Gok Wan8:57

Describe it to me. Originally, I was born in a caravan. We lived in a static van. We were with the original trailer park trash. Well, my parents had no money. My dad's father brought my dad over from Hong Kong and he met my mum, they fell in love, which was wonderful. Your mum's English. My mum's English, yeah. And they fell in love, and my dad's dad had a Chinese restaurant, the first Chinese restaurant in Leicester, actually, which he's very proud of, but the first one. And it was very, very busy, but we still had no real money. And so I was born in a static van in a caravan park. So that's my earliest years. And then we got a council house, and it was in the poshest new council estate in Leicester. And I have great happy memories of being in this council house. I remember doing the front garden with my mum, and it's just happy. It's beautiful. And it's for some reason, it's always summer in that garden at the front.

Presenter9:11

And your name's English.

Presenter9:46

Did you spend any time in the restaurant that your parents were? They were they were running and working that restaurant, yeah.

Gok Wan9:48

Yeah.

Gok Wan9:50

One of my earliest memories is is putting a tuxedo on as a child. I mean, looking like the crankies, basically. Being four or five years old. And I would parade myself around the restaurant with my dad. And so I was cocooned in this world of Chinese restaurant, living on a council estate, just having the best time, great memories, playing in the back garden of the restaurant, eating the most amazing food. Yes.

Presenter10:14

Yes, tell me about your

Presenter10:16

Tell me about the amazing food. What did you eat? I mean, who was cooking the food at home?

Gok Wan10:20

Uh, mum never cooked at home and dad is the chef. I mean, dad is the best cook in the entire world. He is brilliant. I mean, in fact, we can all cook. Me, my brother and sister, we're all very good cooks because of dad teaching us.

Presenter10:30

You made a very interesting documentary and and part of that documentary was you going back and and uh sort of tracing where your family lived and also talking about the role that f that food played in your early life and and in every location, whether it's sort of by the swing park or in the bushes where you where normally people might say, Oh, that was where I played hide and seek you said that was where I would sit and eat such and such and that's so food was central to your existence as a little boy and secretly eating food.

Gok Wan10:34

Um

Gok Wan10:39

Yeah.

Gok Wan10:45

Where is the

Gok Wan10:48

Uh

Speaker 410:49

Yeah.

Gok Wan10:52

So food

Gok Wan10:55

Yeah, it was secretly eating food. Secretly, publicly. Anyway, I would eat as much as I possibly could. I I mean I still love food now and I I still have quite a complex relationship with food and it was hard to admit that my relationship with food was so bad because the memories I've got of food are amazing. The parties, the family gatherings and things. I remember all that stuff, but it was my worst enemy at the same time.

Presenter11:20

A at that time, did did your mum or dad ever say to you, Gok, you know, you need to just slow down there on the eating?

Gok Wan11:27

Oh my god, absolutely not. We got Fred more. I mean it was it's a real big you know it's it's food is a big success story in Asia. Because you're providing. Exactly, you're providing and it's a sign of love and it's a sign of affection and it's a sign of success and it's it's family bonding. It's about getting everybody together. So the bigger we got the more love we felt. Tell me about disc number three. Again, my sister introduced me to this song and it's stayed with me the whole of my adult life and whenever I'm happy this song seems to make sense and whenever I'm sad it makes even more sense. It's just one of those songs that can be played for any of my moods and I absolutely love it and it's Jealous Guy.

Presenter11:32

Yeah.

Speaker 412:06

I didn't mean to hurt you

Speaker 412:12

I'm sorry that I made you cry

Speaker 412:19

I didn't mean to hurt you

Speaker 412:25

I'm just a jealous guy.

Presenter12:33

That was Brian Ferry and Jealous Guy, the perennially cool Brian Ferry. You've you've styled him I have. That must have been terrifying to style Brian Ferry.

Gok Wan12:38

I have, yeah.

Gok Wan12:42

It was quite simply one of the most horrendous moments of my life. And normally, if you're doing six or seven shots, you might need to do maybe four outfits, so you'll have a rail of clothes. I think I arrived with 25 rails of clothes. I was so nervous. I didn't know what I was going to do with him. He was obviously, you know, in the 70s, voted as the most stylish man of all time. And still is these days. And still, absolutely, and still is.

Presenter13:01

The most stylish man of all time. Yes, and still is these days. And still, absolutely, and still is. Did you have to stand next to him in his boxer shorts? I did. Yes, because you're actually.

Gok Wan13:07

I did. Yes, because you're actually, when you're a stylist, you could dress him. I absolutely dressed him. I have to and let me tell you right now, it wasn't a bad day for that reason.

Presenter13:10

Because I just posted them on my address.

Presenter13:15

Yeah.

Presenter13:18

Um I want to rewind. You were you were talking about life in Leicester and you were talking about how food played a part and you became this this big boy, um very big boy. I mean how how were you your heaviest?

Gok Wan13:29

I'm hungry.

Gok Wan13:32

My heaviest, I was twenty one stone. Very big. Huge. I mean, I was, you know, morbidly obese. I think that that fits into that category.

Presenter13:33

Right, so very big.

Presenter13:38

Okay. And you've said before fat, Chinese, and gay. In this estate, that was hard.

Gok Wan13:43

Yeah, I was ticking all the boxes for public funding.

Presenter13:43

Yeah.

Gok Wan13:45

Basically, I mean, I was there. It was hard.

Presenter13:45

Basically, I mean

Gok Wan13:49

I was I was always quite eff effeminate and because I was overweight my character got bigger because that was my way of defending myself. So you became quite camp and quite cabaret as well.

Presenter13:55

Yeah, so you work hard.

Presenter13:57

You were quite a flamboyant.

Gok Wan13:59

Yeah, absolutely.

Presenter14:00

At the time, how were you being Treaty.

Gok Wan14:02

Yeah.

Presenter14:02

Yeah.

Gok Wan14:02

Yeah.

Presenter14:02

But

Gok Wan14:02

Kip.

Presenter14:02

I'm not sure.

Gok Wan14:02

Uh

Presenter14:02

You're believing.

Gok Wan14:02

You know, it was tough. It was really tough. I was bullied as in, it wasn't like a group of people that would beat me up or do anything like that at all. It was a constant social bullying that I went through. So it was constant name-calling. It was always being the butt of everyone's jokes. It was, you know, always being told the ugly, fat, weird, Chinese, gay, queer kind of, you know, all and it was a constant thing. It was constant, constant badgering. And a lot of the hang-ups that I had throughout being bullied, I still carry with me now. Like, I still think that I'm really thick because I got told for so many years that I was thick, because I was fat and stupid. And then going up to being twenty and deciding to lose the weight was my way of bowing down to the bullies, I suppose, and saying, Right, well, I need to change myself because maybe you are right.

Speaker 214:28

And it was a

Presenter14:54

I want to ask you more about that in a second. For now, though, I want you to tell me why you've chosen track number four.

Gok Wan14:55

Second for nine

Gok Wan14:59

Yeah.

Gok Wan15:00

So track number four, I think possibly is one of the greatest songs written by one of the greatest artists of all time, probably the most talented and moral lyricists of the last hundred years. And every time I hear this song, and it's probably the most played song in my world, I always discover something new about it. It's brilliant.

Speaker 415:20

You get a fantasy car.

Speaker 415:22

I got a plan to get us outta here, been working at the convenience store Managed to save just a little bit of money, won't have to drive too far Just across the border and into the city, you and I can both get jobs And finally see what it means to be a living

Presenter15:46

That was Tracy Chapman and Fast Car. You left home. I mean, you said, you know, it was a very loving home and you continue to be very close to your family, but you left home at a young age. You were sixteen when you left.

Gok Wan15:56

Yeah, yeah, sixteen.

Gok Wan15:58

I was deeply unhappy at school. I I I'd had a terrible time. I left school when I was fourteen.

Presenter16:04

And you left without any qualification.

Gok Wan16:04

And you left without any qualification. Without any qualifica, no GCSEs, without anything. I mean, I you know, I'd I'd started hanging out with the wrong kids, I was, you know, getting myself into trouble, I was becoming quite aggressive, I was um

Presenter16:15

It wasn't it wasn't about a single thing that happened to you then. Something didn't happen to you then.

Gok Wan16:19

You know what, I was angry about being gay, I was angry about being fat, I was I wo I felt very lonely, the bullying had got to me, you know, but

Presenter16:26

I mean, I I I do wonder maybe if if the being fat was more about being gay. I mean, when did you know when did you know you were gay?

Gok Wan16:32

Oh, I I think I've always known. I think I came out of the womb knowing. I you know, I I

Gok Wan16:36

I always knew that I was different. You know, I got on better with women. I preferred female company. My relationship with boys was a bit awkward. It was probably because I fancied them. I basically decided, after bumming around for a few years, I suddenly decided I was going to go back to college because I was going to fulfil my dream of always wanting to be an actor. And I'd always and when I was at school, the safest place for me was when I was in school productions and I felt like I belonged and I was allowed to be outrageous. I was allowed to be effeminate. And so from somebody that had left school 14, 15, no GCSEs, not really done any academic work at all, had been had been bullied most of their life, I suddenly went and became a straight A student in one of performing arts schools. I went and had this three years of absolute

Gok Wan17:21

It was brilliant.

Gok Wan17:23

It was I was good at something.

Presenter17:24

And when you were nineteen you won a place at the Central School of Speech and Drama, which is a very prestigious organization and and and it would seem then that that was your your ticket to the good life.

Gok Wan17:27

That's right.

Gok Wan17:29

Just organization.

Gok Wan17:33

Yeah, I mean it was weird because I'd done three years where being fat didn't matter. It was great. It became part of my physical presence. You know, being gay, it didn't matter because in the theatre, darling, you know, being gay is absolutely accepted. You know, being mixed race was brilliant because I was doing contemporary arts and so I could play any character and give it an edge. I went down to London and.

Speaker 417:41

You know

Gok Wan17:55

went and did my audition and walked in the door and looked around and suddenly there were forty kids that were all beautiful, middle class, better at everything that I've ever done, had you know, academic, intelligent, creative and I remember just standing there thinking, What have I done?

Presenter18:18

The next part coming shortly. For now, tell me about your next piece of music. We're at disc number five now.

Gok Wan18:23

Perfect timing. When I was at Central in my first year, we had to make a music video and we chose this song and it's one of my happy memories of Central and believe me, there are not many of those.

Speaker 218:35

Holly came from Miami, FLA.

Speaker 218:40

Hitchhiked away across USA.

Speaker 218:44

Plucked her eyebrows on the way Shaved her legs and then he was a she She says hey babe take a walk on the wild side

Speaker 218:53

Said hey honey, take a walk on the wild side

Presenter19:03

That was Lou Reid and Walk on the Wild Side. So, Gokuan, we were talking about Central School of Speech and Drama onto the course and what should have been your your ticket to stardom and great acting. In fact, uh ended rather badly.

Gok Wan19:15

Yeah, so so I won the place and I remember I was suddenly surrounded by really, really creative, talented individuals and I was a scared little fat boy from Leicester. You know, so the call started and it just went from bad to worse and I'd never written an essay in my life. I come from a creative course of three years doing performing arts where I was laying on the floor being a fried egg for two years. You know, that I could do. But writing an essay about Stanislaski or Brecht, I had no idea. Who are these people? But I suddenly realized that I was going to be a terrible actor. And I suddenly realised that I was going to be really, really bad at the only thing that I'd ever thought I was good at.

Presenter19:55

Why did you think well, why did you say you realized you were going to be a terrible actor? I mean, you'd been allowed on the course.

Gok Wan20:00

I've been allowed on the course, but.

Gok Wan20:04

I I'm unsure why they let me on that course. I wasn't right for the school and the institution. It was completely it was completely out of my depth. And I don't know why they let me on the course. I have no clue. Even to this day, part of me thinks to myself, Did I just make up the numbers? You know, was it great to get a working class Northern Asian Chinese gay boy?

Presenter20:20

Yeah.

Presenter20:21

You're expanding their diversity profile.

Gok Wan20:23

Maybe. And you know, maybe it's a bit cruel of me to say that, but it definitely wasn't because I was talented. But as the hours went on at Central, the more depressed I got. And it was real it was a very dark time for me. And it seems like all the three years of suddenly being confident and finding out who I was was completely stripped away from me when I walked through the door at Central.

Presenter20:43

And you lost is this is right, is it this was the point at which you lost nine stones in weight.

Gok Wan20:47

Yeah, so I so I well I lost ten stone in total over nine months. And so I I then

Presenter20:51

Uh

Presenter20:53

How did you? I mean, obviously, I know how you did it insofar as you ate less, but I mean, literally, did you decide today's the day? Did you wake up and say this is going to start?

Gok Wan20:57

But I am.

Gok Wan21:00

Volta street.

Gok Wan21:01

Um, one of the one of the earliest memories I can remember of of of deciding to lose the weight was being completely naked, sat on my bed. At the end of my bed was a big old, beautiful wardrobe with this great ornate mirror on it. And I remember and it makes me feel quite sad when I say this, but I remember um

Gok Wan21:20

Looking in the mirror and thinking that wardrobe is so beautiful apart from the reflection.

Gok Wan21:26

And that, um it was really tricky.

Presenter21:30

Yeah, very tricky. And so it seems almost impossible to imagine you say you lost ten stones in nine months.

Gok Wan21:37

Yeah, so I so then I decided, right, okay, that's it. If I'm going to be an actor, if I'm going to be successful, I had to change. And at that point I remember thinking to myself, Do you know what? You've got to do it. You've got to lose the weight. It's the only way

Gok Wan21:51

You are

Gok Wan21:53

gonna feel successful or happy and I could have couldn't have been more wrong. And I did it and I reduced the amount of feelings.

Presenter22:01

Yeah, I think it's a good idea.

Gok Wan22:04

Because it wasn't about that. It was a cry for help. It wasn't about my weight. It wasn't about high-looked at all. But it was the one way that I could control it. If does that make any sense?

Presenter22:13

It does, but I sometimes wonder wh I mean, you spend your much of your time on on your television uh series telling women that, you know, embrace your curves and enjoy yourself and dress to look beautiful the way you are, because you are beautiful the way you are, and yet you are a man.

Gok Wan22:21

And

Gok Wan22:22

Dressed

Presenter22:26

who's very, very slim, and who lost ten stone at one point in his life, and presumably you feel better slimmer than you did when you were bigger.

Gok Wan22:34

I I mean, I I will always struggle with that fight because it's in theory it's a contradiction what I do on television because of where I've come from. But in it also makes a lot of sense.

Presenter22:40

Yeah.

Speaker 222:41

Uh

Gok Wan22:44

You have got to embrace who you are as a person. If you don't understand that person, there's no point of you going off to a a diet club, there's no point of you becoming addicted to the gym and and working out twenty hours a week, because if you don't understand that mind and that person, you will never be at one with how you look. You will constantly be looking for another way of changing it.

Presenter23:01

You're also asking women in your books and on your T V programmes to feel good about themselves. You know, you must sort of feel it coming from the inside because you are beautiful and you shouldn't try to be this sort of six foot two, eight and a half stone alien model who actually bears no resemblance to most of womankind. Enjoy yourself. Do you feel yourself to be a very striking, attractive, slim, stylish man?

Gok Wan23:11

Yeah.

Gok Wan23:14

Stone alien model who actually

Gok Wan23:17

Yeah.

Gok Wan23:27

Okay, this this is this is this the the last piece of the jigsaw in the in in in my hideous horrible puzzle when I was younger. The weight started to drop off me and I it was ridiculous. I did it the most ridiculous way, you know. Some days I'd have two spoons of honey because I kind of figured that that's all the energy I would need to to survive that day. And of course it didn't happen. You know, halfway through a conversation I had to take a nap. I was exhausted. In my head I told myself nine months earlier that I was going to discover success and discover who I was because if everyone's told me for so many years, fat, ugly, stupid, you know, half breed, queer, whatever it was. And in fact, the one thing that I'd understood the whole of my life was my body. I understood what it was like to live in a fat frame.

Speaker 224:12

Is that what he wants?

Gok Wan24:15

You know, how people treat you differently. I was equipped and I was clever enough to beat them away or flaw them with what I was going to say. If you people ke got too close, I was ready to fight them.

Speaker 224:19

Yeah.

Speaker 424:22

Uh

Gok Wan24:25

And then suddenly, nine months later, I I didn't have any of that. I was stripped of all my armor, all of my ammunition, all the tools that I'd learnt over the last twenty one years, and I was left with basically nothing.

Presenter24:39

So who did help you? Was it your family who helped me?

Gok Wan24:41

My family helped me, my sister was an amazing support, my mum was an amazing support and now it makes sense for the show that I make because when I turn around to a woman and say, you do not need to lose weight, you do not need to look in that magazine and feel that you are not as good as these people because they've been airbrushed or retouched or because they're underweight and on a catwalk and I know all of that because I've lived on both sides of that fence.

Presenter25:04

But lots to talk about, but but this is where uh on uh disk six. What's that?

Gok Wan25:09

So this song is the only song ever that I actually do genuinely believe I'm sexy to.

Gok Wan25:17

But I can't wait to hear it. Absolutely. Joe, I'm going to let the song speak for itself.

Speaker 425:35

I just set myself alive

Speaker 425:38

This is not a little bit of a sense of security.

Presenter25:52

That was Muse and Supermassive Black Hole and You Say Gok Wan, intriguingly the only song that makes you feel truly sexy.

Gok Wan25:59

I I I don't know what it is about that song. Absolutely. If I if I get into my car and I start driving with that song on, I genuinely think I am the modern age James Bonds. It makes me feel like a bloke, is what it does. And I don't very ra I very rarely feel like a bloke, and it does.

Presenter26:01

So

Presenter26:14

Uh when did when did you or did you ever discuss with your parents your your sexuality? Did you ever come come out to your parents? How did you come out to your parents?

Gok Wan26:20

Yeah. Come out.

Gok Wan26:23

My sister told my parents. My sister and my brother knew that I was gay, and my parents didn't. And um.

Gok Wan26:30

My sister went home and my mum called me up and she said, Hello, babe,'cause she calls me babe, that's my nickname. Hello, babe, something like that.

Gok Wan26:38

Willens told me.

Gok Wan26:40

And suddenly it felt like it felt like I was being de-offled. It was like all like all of my inners were being ripped out of my nose. I just remember thinking, Oh my.

Gok Wan26:49

I can't believe this, they know. And I was like, Don't know, Dad, because the fear was that there was a 0.1% chance that my parents were going to disown me because they meant and they still do mean so much to me, that in itself was too much of a risk. You know, there would there cannot be any risk that I can lose my family. And my mum said, Mike, you know, we kind of always knew.

Speaker 226:59

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 227:04

Yeah.

Gok Wan27:11

And then we skip forward a few months. And I was seeing a guy at the time, and it's terrible what I did, but I I completely used him as an accessory to come out to my parents properly. And I said, We're going back to my parents, so I load him up in the car.

Speaker 427:14

Hmm.

Gok Wan27:26

Got in the car, drove up to Leicester because my parents work and catering, they finish work at midnight, one o'clock in the morning, then they have their meal, their evening meal. So I knew that we were getting home just in time to have that evening meal. We sat there and the dinner table was deathly silent, and it was caused by the atmosphere that I'd created. But I thought, I've got to do this, I've got to do this. And it was the winter now by this time, and my dad left the dinner table early, and my dad never leaves the dinner table early. And I just remember thinking, if I was to die right now, I would deserve it. What have I done? And then left the dinner table at the end of the meal and went into the living room. My dad had made up a bed in the living room with a mattress and pillows and lit an open fire for me and this guy to stay in. And it was his way of accepting it.

Presenter28:03

Ram

Presenter28:11

What an extraordinary thing to do.

Gok Wan28:13

Mm-hmm.

Gok Wan28:14

Powermaze.

Presenter28:16

Let's have some music then. We're we're on seven now.

Gok Wan28:18

Okay, so yeah, so now this song reminds me of the happy years at school. And and I think actually the lead singer on this particular track is probably got one of the strongest voices of in the nineteen nineties. It's Karen Wheeler.

Speaker 428:31

Back to life, back to reality Back to life, back to reality

Speaker 428:55

Me

Speaker 428:56

Could be the

Presenter28:59

That was Soul to Soul with Karen Wheeler and Back to Life. You you are o obviously somebody who's predisposed towards being compulsive. I mean, you were a compulsive eater. You are you are a compulsive what now?

Gok Wan29:08

Do you have a

Gok Wan29:11

Workaholic. I mean, absolutely. You know, I work a hundred hours. I love my job. But I'm still trying to be successful. I'm still I suppose I'm still trying to put to bed the little fat boy that wants to be light.

Presenter29:23

So success is i important to you. Do you think that will be a never-ending thing that you're trying to quell?

Gok Wan29:28

Yeah. I think if if I if you had to name what would kill you, I think my success will kill me. Or for trying to find the pursuit of it. Yeah. Um

Presenter29:33

The pursuit of this.

Presenter29:36

'Cause you've made your s uh you have made yourself ill with your success. I mean, you've had a have you you

Gok Wan29:40

Yeah, yeah. I worked myself into a hospital ward um with with a couple of stomach ulcers because I just worked so hard.

Presenter29:47

How how do you you you you're very close to your family still. I mean, how you do you speak to your family every week? Do you?

Gok Wan29:50

Really close.

Gok Wan29:53

Every day?

Presenter29:53

What do they make of your success and your visibility and your celebrity?

Gok Wan29:57

You know, if you had to ask me who was the most successful person in my family, and I would say it was my mum, because she set out to have children and to have a family and to love her children, and she's accomplished all of that.

Presenter30:09

Would you like to be a parent yourself?

Gok Wan30:11

I'd love to. I'd love to be a parent. I think I'd be a terrible parent, but I'd love to.

Presenter30:12

Uh

Presenter30:15

There are many options, of course, now open to same-sex couples. I mean, is that something you would think about pursuing one day in the in the right set of circumstances?

Gok Wan30:17

Inside

Gok Wan30:20

What

Gok Wan30:21

I mean, you know, I'm thirty five now. I love what I do so much. I know that I would have to give part of that up to be a successful parent. And I don't know whether I could give that up because it goes down to the fact that, you know, I've suddenly found something that I'm good at and I don't want that to stop.

Presenter30:24

Yeah.

Presenter30:40

Okay, let's hear your final track then, Coke. Tell us about disc number eight.

Gok Wan30:44

So this song, okay, I'm gonna throw myself out on a limb here. I think is possibly the best song ever written, ever, of all time. That's quite a statement. It's quite a statement, absolutely. It's not that well known either. And I know how much it means to me because I get very, very excited when I introduce it to people. And I'm a bit of a nerd because I might sometimes lock somebody in my car and say, you're not getting out until you've heard this entire song. So fortunately, we're in a studio today and not in my car. So this is Tracy Chapman again.

Presenter30:54

That's quite stateful.

Gok Wan31:17

If you

Speaker 431:20

Wait for me.

Speaker 431:24

The night

Speaker 431:27

Come for you.

Speaker 431:30

Although I have tried.

Speaker 431:34

Both fire.

Speaker 431:37

I always hope.

Speaker 431:40

He plays for

Presenter31:46

That was Tracy Chapman and The Promise.

Presenter31:49

And so, Gok, if you if you were well, you will be on your own on the island, of course. I'm c I'm casting you away in scare. I'm imagining life without your family is going to be murderous for you.

Gok Wan31:59

Yeah, it will be. I I I can't ever imagine my world without my family, my friends.

Gok Wan32:05

I don't think I could s I don't think I'd I'd have to sneak them into the island somewhere. You can't possibly

Presenter32:12

So, I'm going to give you now the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take a book of your own to read on the island. What's your book going to be?

Gok Wan32:20

My book will be Beautiful Thing by Jonathan Harvey, because I absolutely love that film. It's my coming out film, it's my coming out play, and I saw it when I was at college, and I became a man watching that play.

Presenter32:36

And a luxury too, something just to make island life a little more livable. Can't be useful, can't be your family, obviously. No.

Gok Wan32:43

Nah. What's it going?

Presenter32:43

Uh

Gok Wan32:43

Uh

Presenter32:43

Should be

Gok Wan32:44

Ah, my lip balm.

Presenter32:46

Your lip balm

Gok Wan32:47

It was that I constantly applying because of course when I'm on the island I want to feel and look my best and chaplets would never

Presenter32:53

With your black trunks. Yes,'cause it's bright red, so it has a certain visual appeal. And I'm going to ask you now just to narrow it down to to one disc. If there was only one disc that you s could save from these eight, which one disc would it be?

Gok Wan32:55

It's'cause it's bright red, so

Gok Wan32:57

Exactly.

Gok Wan33:07

This is the hardest, hardest thing and you're a bad woman for making me do this. It's true. I am going to save Tracy Chatham and the Promise.

Presenter33:11

Yeah.

Presenter33:18

It's yours. Cock Wan, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Gok Wan33:22

Thank you so much. I've had a great time.

Presenter34:10

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc.co.uk slash Radio Four.