Frank Warren

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the boxing promoter Frank Warren. Over the last thirty years he has changed the face of the sport and worked with the biggest names in it, among them Mike Tyson, Joe Calzaghi, Prince Nassi Mohammed, Ricky Hatton, and Olympic medal winner Amir Khan.

Presenter0:50

If he were in the ring rather than out of it, his nickname might be Frank the Phoenix Warren. He has lost fortunes and remade them, survived an assassination attempt, and even a run in with Mike Tyson.

Presenter1:03

Never a professional boxer himself, he is none the less always willing to defend his turf. When I was a kid, he says, I came from a pretty rough area, and so there were a few fights. I'd never back down from anyone, rightly or wrongly. I've been that way in boxing. I fight my corner. Um, Frank Warren, if you fight your corner, then winning must be important.

Frank Warren1:26

Um

Frank Warren1:27

I don't know if it's winning's important. I think that if I feel I'm right about something, then I'll fight my corner.

Frank Warren1:33

then I'll take it all the way I can to to get my point across.

Presenter1:37

You're not telling me winning isn't important to you then, are you?

Frank Warren1:39

But I mean it's important. I mean, obviously if you're a boxer, it's very, very important. Um, yeah, everybody wants, I suppose, wants to be a winner, but you want to be a winner with a bit of dignity and a bit of pride.

Presenter1:47

Um, it's thirty years this year that you've promoted your first fight, is that right?

Frank Warren1:53

First uh British boxing border control fight. Before that I was promoting fights that they were were outside the boxing border control jurisdiction. Okay. And did you make money from it? The very first fight I I I remember exactly how much money I lost. I lost seventeen and a half thousand pounds. That was in nineteen eighty. Was that I mean is was that you Money? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's my money. Yeah, I took the hit.

Presenter2:10

Yeah.

Frank Warren2:14

What did that feel like? Well, I wasn't very happy about it, considering that I'd rush shows outside the what happened, what went wrong?

Frank Warren2:22

Um, there was no people there. There were the regulations in those days were that you had to run at least three shows before you could have any television dates, so I couldn't even get T V for the event. You know, hopefully learnt from the bad experience.

Presenter2:34

Um, d do you ever lose money these days? And of course it's not I mean, seventy and a half thousand pounds was a lot then, but now we're talking into the tens of millions. Do you

Frank Warren2:40

Yeah, I yeah, I've I've run shows within the last couple of years, couple of shows I've lost big money.

Presenter2:40

Yeah.

Presenter2:45

Like what?

Frank Warren2:45

Uh Kawzaki when he fought Joe Kauzaki when he fought against Kessler in Cardiff. We lost over half a million quid on that show.

Frank Warren2:52

There was over 40,000 people there. In boxing, it's your own money. You're putting your own money up. You're taking a risk. It's on your judgment.

Frank Warren3:00

Do you love that? Do is that part of the the thrill? Yeah, I think I'm a little bit of a gambler. I've always I mean when I was younger I used to be a gambler, I worked at the races. And your father was a bookmaker. Yeah and I worked at the races with him. I used to work on stand up and bet myself when I was a kid and so there's that part of me, but I do like taking risks now and then. I never think back to the bad times. I think if you do that I think it drags you down. I'm I've always been an optimist. If I do sit and think about bad things then I could really bring myself down so I choose not to do that.

Speaker 33:16

Yeah.

Presenter3:16

Uh

Presenter3:27

Well, we're starting with a suitably optimistic song today. Tell us about your first choice.

Frank Warren3:32

Uh Doesn't that

Presenter3:32

Yeah. Then what is it?

Frank Warren3:33

This is the first film I ever remember going to see when I was a kid, and I see it at the Angel Cinema in Islington, and it was uh from a film called uh Calamity Jane. Doris Dave is a star, and it's uh Deadwood Stage.

Speaker 13:44

Oh, the dead wood stages are rolling on over the plains With the curtains slapping and the driver a slapping the reins A beautiful sky, a wonderful day Whip crack away, whip crack away, whip crack away

Speaker 14:01

Oh, the dead wood stages are heading on over the hills. Where the engine arrows are thicker than porcupine quills. Dangerous land, no time to delay. So

Presenter4:15

That was Doris Day and the Deadwood stage from the soundtrack to the film Calamity Jane. Quite a not a feminine selection exactly, Frank Warren, but there are quite a lot of female singers in here. Is music something of a release for you? Does it allow you to be emotional rather than the hard-headed business?

Frank Warren4:29

Yeah, very much so. As a kid, there was always music playing in my house. Right. A lot of women singers, like Dinah Washington, Delarise.

Frank Warren4:36

Sarah Vaughan, lots of that when I was a kid. Lots of music playing in the house.

Presenter4:40

Your life is one of I mean extreme drama in moments which we'll talk about, but also one of of contrast, because although it's much more than than a I was going to say a dirty game boxing, I don't mean that in a sort of literal sense, but you know it's a hard game, isn't it? It's full of very personality, it's very, very tough.

Speaker 14:57

Passive.

Presenter4:59

And yet in your spare time I read that you're somebody who you you like to collect fine wines, I'm presuming drink them too you you like to collect art what kind of art do you collect?

Frank Warren5:08

Uh anything that really catches my eye, what I feel that I like, contemporary art and old hold on. Where I come from and and the environment I grew up in, which was pretty much t you know, a tough sort of environment. It was a very male dominated yeah, very macho situation.

Presenter5:21

Yeah, very much.

Frank Warren5:23

I didn't do some of the things I think I would like to have done. I loved art at school.

Presenter5:27

Right.

Frank Warren5:28

And I think in a in a different life I've probably been doing something with art.

Presenter5:31

Would you? You mean actually painting yourself? Yeah.

Frank Warren5:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I keep thinking I've got to do something for myself now, something for my soul. For the last two years, my New Year's resolution, besides giving up drink for a while, again, it's been to do something for me that will make me feel good and a bit of a release to myself. And one of those things was painting, taking a painting course. But I'm going to do it this year. I'm absolutely determined to do it, yeah.

Presenter5:42

Again.

Presenter5:53

This is the gear.

Presenter5:54

So it was it was Islington, it was uh uh

Presenter5:58

I mean, was it a tough up

Frank Warren6:00

Upbringing. It's easy to overstate these things. My mum and dad split up, but the family was quite a close family. They were all always there if there was any problems. They were close from that point of view.

Presenter6:08

And how how old were you when your parents broke up?

Frank Warren6:10

Uh, they they split up and went back together. They had one of those sort of relationships and finally split up probably when I was about fourteen, thirteen, fourteen.

Presenter6:13

Aqualis

Presenter6:16

So was it was it a house full of you know, was there a lot of RGB archie going on?

Frank Warren6:19

Yeah, I mean, I lived in a council flat. You know, council flats are small flats, they're thin walls, and you hear a lot. You probably hear things you don't want to hear when you're a kid.

Presenter6:23

Yeah.

Presenter6:27

Yeah.

Frank Warren6:28

You know, I'm lucky enough now I live in a bigger house and so if if Susan and I ever have a round we keep it to ourselves. But when you're a kid you hear things, don't you? And and some of those things may shape you in your life, I don't know. But my mum was totally she's passed away now, but she was absolutely madly in love with my dad and my dad

Frank Warren6:44

Was there and he wasn't there sort of thing, one of those sort of things.

Presenter6:47

And also the life of a bookmaker. I mean, that is quite a wide life, isn't it? It's a hand-to-mouth existence.

Frank Warren6:52

And you've got to remember, going back to those days as well, you know, my uncle was uh was partners in those days with Albert Dimes, who was one of the guys in London. They had a betting office opposite Ronnie Scott, so I'd spend some time down there when I was a youngster. You know, Bar Italia was a when Bar Italia first opened, had this big drawing of Rocky Martiano in there.

Speaker 17:06

With bars.

Frank Warren7:10

So a lot of that shaped me. The gambling was there were street book makers back in in in the very early days. There were spielers, which were clubs where

Frank Warren7:19

Spielers were unlicensed gambling clubs, so upstairs, you know, the guys would be playing cards, dice, and all that sort of thing, and get all the

Frank Warren7:25

The older chaps at the time were there, and I was a young kid, and I'm in there, and I'm seeing some this. I'm sort of 13, 14, 15, and I lost total interest in school, and I was about.

Frank Warren7:35

14 and I basically was bunking. I scored all the time, ridiculously stupid. I went to a grammar school. I did early days, I'd done fairly well, but I just lost interest in it.

Presenter7:44

At the time then when the school lessons started to slip away and you started to be more involved in the adult world, was it just a sense that you thought school had nothing to offer you? Or was the other world just so seductive? And it it sounds I mean, often these things of course aren't glamorous, but it does sound quite glamorous. You know, Soho in the fifties and sixties.

Frank Warren7:59

All those things were seductive, very seductive. And you don't know any different. And there's no one really there to guide you because my mum was really sort of focused on what's happening with her and my dad. And there was no one there to help me channel M me, if you know what I mean. So, I don't know sometimes you feel that

Frank Warren8:15

I wouldn't want my kids to have to have done that.

Presenter8:18

More in a minute. Tell me about your second choice today then, Frank. What is

Frank Warren8:21

My second choice is it was on the Beatles album the first time I was it's an album called With the Beatles and it was a song called Money and I was still at school and it came out and I can remember one of the older kids said to me, You want to hear the original version and that's by Barrett Strong and I searched high and low and got it and I think it's a cracking song and I enjoy it.

Speaker 38:38

Straight in life

Speaker 38:40

But you can give them to the birds and bees at me

Speaker 38:46

One, one, that's one.

Speaker 38:51

That's what I want.

Speaker 38:59

Your love give me such a thrill But your love don't pay my bills I need

Presenter9:07

That was Barrett Strong and money, that's what I want. You were talking about your own horizons being sort of limited, Frank Warren. You're a father of six yourself. How how have you tried? I mean, I imagine that's indelibly shaped the way you've tried to encourage and direct your kids.

Frank Warren9:21

I I think certainly from my marriage with Susan, since I've been married to Susan and and they have four children, I think I've been very focussed on on the kids, you know, in what I feel is important.

Speaker 19:29

Yeah.

Frank Warren9:32

which is education, which is learning right from wrong, you know, to be fair to everybody, all the all the sort of things you want for your kids. And two of my children have gone to university, two of them have dropped out.

Frank Warren9:41

One went to Saint Martin's, the other one went to Exeter.

Presenter9:44

And how was the dropping out with Dan?

Frank Warren9:45

They didn't they uh I weren't happy about it, but they weren't happy at university. They didn't like university life. Had they gone because you wanted them to go or No, no. Well, yes, Francis, my my oldest son with Susan, probably did because we wanted to. I think he wanted to at the time. He just didn't enjoy the experience.

Speaker 110:00

Two

Frank Warren10:02

Jamie is from First Wife Barbara. He um

Frank Warren10:06

went to St Martin's. He really regrets dropping you know, dropping Ala there.

Presenter10:09

So he had his father's artistic talent.

Frank Warren10:10

Very ar very artistic. He works for Sky now. Now I've got three still at University, which is Henry.

Presenter10:16

Bangladesh.

Frank Warren10:17

He's just started at Leeds and I've got Faye and George both at in Manchester. So I'm pleased for them, I'm pleased for all of them, whatever they want to do, but it can only be there for'em.

Presenter10:25

Yeah.

Frank Warren10:25

and to help support them and help try and guide them.

Frank Warren10:28

in their in whatever decisions they're going to make in life.

Presenter10:31

So what was it you you were picking up outside Bar Italia and above in the nineteen sixties?

Frank Warren10:35

I think I was pretty a streetwise kid. Yeah. You know, streetwise, I mean, I don't beat up that. I never.

Presenter10:40

Don't be about the on the come on. I mean, what are we talking about here?

Frank Warren10:44

I mean, if you're working at the races, you meet some pretty guys who are thinking on their feet, sharp characters. You meet a few scoundrels along the way, you meet from all different aspects of life.

Presenter10:50

Nope.

Presenter10:55

And it's not letting somebody get one over on you, isn't it? It's the sort of survival that is.

Frank Warren10:58

Survival. For me, yeah, I think it's not even getting one over me. I just really stand up for myself because I've had to stand up for myself. I think when you're the oldest, you know, maybe you're the oldest kid, I don't know. But I would never back down from a situation, and that's how I was. And I think I've taken that with me into what you want to quit my business life or what I'm doing now. You know, I fight for my corner, sometimes to my detriment, by the way.

Presenter11:20

Right, like when?

Frank Warren11:21

Well, I think the court case I had with Don King many years ago, he and I could have sat down and sorted that out. But you know what? I didn't want to sit down'cause I was so aggrieved at what happened. And it cost you seven million. Yeah, and I took it to the limit, the whole limit. I thought all the way and then we had to compromise. Yeah. So I had to wipe my mouth.

Frank Warren11:39

Do the deal, decide to live to fight another day.

Presenter11:41

I think that is a very interesting point you make, that that those sort of rules that you live by that are set down as a teenager can sometimes end up being your worst enemy, that you s there's a kind of pattern of behaviour there. I mean, would you you can look back now and and see that, but do you think there are times when you've had a sort of degree of pig headedness about your

Frank Warren12:00

Absolutely, and some things do become repetitive, and sometimes I am like that.

Presenter12:00

Mike.

Frank Warren12:04

So it's things that I have to step back, think about, and take control of my emotions in those areas, and I try to do that.

Presenter12:12

And how do have you been to therapy for that? Do you have some?

Frank Warren12:14

Do you have anything to do with that? I've done therapy for about four years, I did it.

Presenter12:19

Right.

Frank Warren12:20

It was quite interesting.

Presenter12:21

Was it?

Frank Warren12:22

Yeah.

Presenter12:22

What did you learn about yourself?

Frank Warren12:24

Um I think you let a lot of stuff out.

Presenter12:26

Yeah.

Frank Warren12:27

You look at why you did things and why things happen and how you would deal with them in the future, and that's that's what I think I learnt from it. If somebody has said it to me a few years ago, I'd have gone, Do me a favor, you know, it's like a sign of weakness, will you? But it's not sometimes you do need to talk to somebody.

Speaker 112:40

Yeah.

Frank Warren12:43

Let's have some more music then. Tell me about the third track today. The third track is Beatles Day in the Life. I'm a massive, massive Beatles fan. I mean, it is like poetry listening to this, and it's a I think it's just a beautiful track.

Speaker 312:55

Let the news today go for

Speaker 313:01

About a lucky man who made the grave

Speaker 313:07

Though the news was rather sad

Speaker 313:13

Well I just have to laugh.

Speaker 313:18

I saw the photograph.

Presenter13:25

That was the Beatles and A Day in the Life. I read, Frank Warren, that you meet the parents of any young boxer before you sign them up. Is that true? Meet.

Frank Warren13:32

Yeah.

Presenter13:32

Uh

Frank Warren13:32

Yeah.

Presenter13:33

Why is that?

Frank Warren13:34

Um because I'd like to meet the parents and let them know who they're dealing with, because you're really learning trusting their career in my hands.

Presenter13:40

Young boys, very young boys.

Presenter13:43

And a career where their life is at risk.

Frank Warren13:46

Correct. It's a very, very dangerous sport. And and what do you see? What do you see to the market? Basically, you know, provided that the youngster, the lad, wants to take this seriously, there's no shortcuts. It's very dangerous, probably most dangerous thing you could get involved with in sport.

Frank Warren14:01

And to tell them, you know, I'll I will look after them, provided I'm going to get one hundred percent for them. You know, for a boxer who's got to give up a lot of his youth. If they get it right, it can be fantastic. They can achieve so much, they can financially secure themselves, their families and so forth. But it can go wrong as well.

Presenter14:16

Tell me about uh Prince Nasi Mahmed was uh your boxer for a long time and and was the hottest thing to to to I was gonna say hit a canvas, he didn't hit the canvas, he danced around spectacularly. When his parents were uh Yemeni immigrants, can you tell me about meeting them for the first time?

Frank Warren14:30

That's correct.

Frank Warren14:32

Yeah, I met his dad, his mother and obviously they have a Muslim family. I met his dad Sal, who had a a shop up in Sheffield, and his mum. His father unfortunately just passed away. Mum and dad were very nice people. Nas was probably the most exciting fighter I'd ever been involved with. Electrifying, was it? Oh yeah. It was showbiz and it was marketing towards young kids. We got him into teenagers' magazines because my view but then especially my my kids were all younger then.

Presenter14:47

Oh yeah.

Frank Warren14:56

My view then was that if they're talking about it, mums and dads pick up on it.

Presenter15:01

Yeah.

Frank Warren15:01

And we can do that. We told him it's all about attitude. You've got to have an attitude. Either they're going to love you, or they're going to. Hate ya.

Presenter15:08

So for Nassim Ahmed it it did go badly wrong. I mean he ended up serving time in prison for motoring offences and

Presenter15:15

I'm thinking here about the journey of a young person. There you are.

Frank Warren15:18

Well he'd let me buy

Presenter15:19

Yeah.

Frank Warren15:19

Yeah.

Presenter15:21

Uh

Frank Warren15:21

Uh

Presenter15:21

These young people are very vulnerable, aren't they? These young boys, to try to find a way of developing their life that will support their career?

Frank Warren15:21

These young

Speaker 115:23

Uh

Frank Warren15:23

I mean the

Frank Warren15:31

I have a team that work with me, and I do work with some of them one-on-one. And it's difficult to do it with all of them, but some of them I do. But the problem is, I'm in the business of building or creating monsters, you may say. I've got to sell them, so I've got to bring the press's attention to this box that I've got, you know, and I'll bang the drum. But I'm creating a monster, and that monster might come back and bite me on the backside, and they'd believe it.

Presenter15:52

Well, there's a very good chance it will, and on many occasions indeed it has. That's a very, very tricky alchemy to get right, isn't it? To try to create somebody who has the the confidence and the passion and can attract plenty of publicity, but at the same time has their head screwed on.

Frank Warren16:08

Keep your feet on the floor. And it is very deal. You know, boxers, good, very good boxers come from a very, in some ways, a privileged background. If you're a good young fighter, you're being looked after as an amateur, you're getting the best treatment from the amateur association. You're turned pro, you're being looked after.

Presenter16:10

Uh

Speaker 316:19

Press.

Frank Warren16:25

In some ways, you can become very selfish because what I want, I'm getting. I mean, Mike Tyson's a prime example of that.

Frank Warren16:31

I'm gonna talk

Presenter16:32

I'll talk to you all about Mike Tyson in just a second. For now, though, tell me about your fourth piece of music. What have you chosen?

Frank Warren16:37

Frank. It's an old song, again, from when I was a kid. I heard it, and my wife Susan and I are big fans of Billie Holiday. We listen to a lot of that at home, and it's called Don't Worry About Me.

Speaker 316:47

Don't worry about me

Speaker 316:54

I'll get along.

Speaker 317:04

Forget about me.

Speaker 317:09

Be happy, my love.

Presenter17:16

That was Billie Holiday, and don't worry about me. You have worked, Frank Warren, with some extraordinary characters. Some of them I mentioned in the introduction, Mike Tyson, probably the most extraordinary person I I would think that you've worked with in boxing. Of course, serve time for rape. There was a moment when he bit part of an opponent's ear off that shocked, well, not just people interested in boxing, shocked the world w when he did that. What do you make of him?

Speaker 117:32

Yeah.

Speaker 117:36

Yeah.

Speaker 317:36

Not just

Frank Warren17:44

A complex character, very manipulative. If you don't agree with him, you don't work for him. If if he looks out the window and it's pitch black and he says the sun's shining, if you say the sun isn't shining, then they're gone. I mean that didn't happen to me, that but that's the type of people he wants around him.

Frank Warren17:59

You know, because they're looking at Tyson as being a money-making machine, all these people looking at being a money-making machine, how's he going to differentiate between what's right and wrong? Because anything that he does wrong, people are paying off.

Presenter18:02

Yeah.

Presenter18:09

But of course what he's looking at, and indeed so many boxers I imagine end up in this position, is he will see people.

Presenter18:17

Making money out of him and will inevitably end up feeling cynical about that because he's the person who's putting his life on the line.

Frank Warren18:23

The person who's pushing the

Frank Warren18:24

Maybe at the end, but I don't think that's the case at the young age, because the young age is the opportunity to do it. Yeah. There are people in boxing that actually do love the sport and love what happens and have an affection for the fighters. And he made he made a lot of money. He made five hundred million dollars, but he blew every penny of five hundred million dollars.

Presenter18:35

Yeah.

Presenter18:41

Let's talk about the time that you th this was uh post his uh jail term. You brought him over to Britain to fight. There were two fights in one year, is that right? This was in the year two thousand.

Frank Warren18:50

This was actually the year 2000.

Presenter18:52

Uh

Frank Warren18:52

Uh

Presenter18:52

When he first came across in the spring, was it to fight in Manchester? I think. How did that go? How did you get on with him?

Frank Warren18:52

Yeah.

Frank Warren18:56

I did it.

Frank Warren18:58

I got with him very well. You know, we announced the show, we put it on sale. We could have already sold it out four or five times. That was a tremendous response for him. It wasn't so much a fight, it was more an event bringing him over. Yeah. To be very honest about it. So, where was my head on this? There was somebody else in this country trying to bring him over to promote him, and I got into who's going to bring him over rather than really thinking about what I'm doing here. You know, if I look back on it, I wouldn't have brought him over, to be honest now. But I did. What is it you regret about it?

Presenter19:23

But I'll be the ape.

Frank Warren19:26

I regret that for me it it was more about

Frank Warren19:29

putting the event on rather than somebody else that one of my competitors putting the event on. I've got no one to blame but myself. And the first show went very well.

Frank Warren19:38

But all he wanted to do was buy things and spend money.

Presenter19:42

And he he took a little wander down Bond Street. Tell me what happened there.

Frank Warren19:45

Well, he b he he bought some jewellery in Bond Street and he bought this uh like a diamond

Presenter19:48

What do they buy?

Frank Warren19:51

Bracelet and graphs, diamond necklace thing, and this is like nearly two million quids worth of jewelry here.

Presenter19:56

Were you were you with him in the stores?

Frank Warren19:57

I was with him in store the first time, yeah. Then he bought it.

Presenter20:00

Did you say anything to me?

Frank Warren20:01

He said to him, You're crazy, why are you buying it? I said and and I negotiated it, the negotiated the prices down by fifty percent anyway in the store for him. It was just total lunacy. But he also said to me, he said, I live for today. It may not be there tomorrow, so I'm living for today. But the fact was, he didn't have it to spend. He was just

Frank Warren20:18

Part you know, bus borrowing money and borrowing money support.

Presenter20:20

And the fact was, I believe, that when he came back a few months later, he was slapped with a writ that said, You've got to pay your bills.

Frank Warren20:26

You've got to pay your bills. Well, they had to pay it and uh and they didn't pay it, but they said we'll deduct it from his purse. I imagine it's just a Guess that you don't really want Uh

Presenter20:35

Yeah.

Frank Warren20:35

Okay.

Presenter20:35

And to a Barney was Mike Tyson.

Frank Warren20:36

Yeah.

Frank Warren20:37

Well, he's a big guy. I mean, you know, he's the heavyweight champion or he was a heavyweight champion. Well, he's a big, big fella. Did you have a Barney with him? Yeah, we had a we had an argument. What happened? I can't go into too much detail about it, but we had an argument to su suffice to say he paid the bill.

Presenter20:53

Why can't you go into too much detail?

Frank Warren20:54

It's it was something that him and I resolved.

Frank Warren20:57

There's been a lot of thought amicably he I think he came out and said that Frank Warren's my best friend. I don't think we are best friends, but um yeah, we sorted it out.

Presenter20:57

And totally?

Presenter21:07

I heard a rumour.

Presenter21:09

That Mike Tyson hung you out the window of a hotel.

Frank Warren21:12

Rubbish. Could you imagine if that had happened?

Frank Warren21:15

Oh hear this garbage, it's total and utter complete rubbish.

Frank Warren21:20

Good to get that on the record. You can have that on the record. Could you imagine Park Lane Hotel window open, someone hanging out the window? And it's Frank Warren. Yeah, and nobody notices that. I mean, please.

Presenter21:27

And it's Frank Warren.

Presenter21:30

Let's have some music, Frank. What have you chosen next?

Frank Warren21:32

My next song is one of my heroes, Frank Sinatra, and I think one of the best songs he's ever sung, called All the Way.

Speaker 321:42

Who knows where the road will lead us? Only a fool would say.

Speaker 321:53

But if you let me love you, it's for sure I'm gonna love you.

Speaker 322:00

All the way

Speaker 322:05

Uh

Presenter22:05

All the way.

Presenter22:09

Frank Sinatra and All the Way. We've mentioned, Frank Warren, some of these big names that you've worked with. And of course, it's not just the names, it's the complex business, too, of securing television rights, of pay-per-view deals. There's a lot in the promotional game that you're involved in, of boxing, and there are highs and lows. But for you, I'm imagining one of the deepest lows must have been you were promoting a fight in barking. That's right, yeah.

Frank Warren22:37

Tell me what happened. It was the night I got shot that night. I got out the air. You can't just sing it like that. I got shot that night, really. I was just on my way to Barking and got shot.

Presenter22:41

You can't just sing it like that. I got shot that night.

Presenter22:45

Right.

Frank Warren22:45

Chocolate.

Frank Warren22:47

Yes. No, I I um got out of the car and I heard a bang and looked round and

Presenter22:47

Yeah.

Speaker 322:48

Uh

Presenter22:48

Uh

Speaker 322:48

Anyway

Presenter22:48

Yeah

Frank Warren22:53

I thought it was a joke first of all. I see this guy standing there with a gun and he was shaking like this.

Presenter22:58

He had a button clove on.

Frank Warren22:58

He had a button clove on. Yeah, there's another click. He was just too far for me to grab him.

Frank Warren23:04

Next minute I heard another bang and I felt this pain in my side.

Frank Warren23:08

I thought, well, you know, what's sort of it's a shock, as you can imagine. It's very painful. Then I I could feel my throat gurgling as the blu'cause it went through my lung and the blood was coming up and uh

Presenter23:20

And it was two inches from your heart.

Frank Warren23:21

Yeah, just if I suppose if I'd have been at a different angle, it probably that would have been that. And what was your next memory?

Frank Warren23:27

What I do remember is

Frank Warren23:29

In the hospital.

Frank Warren23:30

On a trolley

Frank Warren23:31

And the la and I remember my uncle there, my uncle Bob, my dad was there, my uncle Bob, and I was saying to Don't let him knock me out'cause I thought if I was going to go to sleep, I wasn't going to wake up. That's what I really felt. It was on this trolley, we were going through the next minute I felt my clothes being cut off and I'm looking up at this bright light. It was like a surreal sort of experience and these heads coming over and looking at me then

Frank Warren23:50

coming away and uh and I can remember the nurse saying we're gonna have to knock you out'cause we've got to put some or the doctor might say it we're going to put some drains into your lungs and that was it, I was gone.

Frank Warren24:00

And you did wake up, of course? I woke up, yeah. What was the first thing you thought? I think uh Susan was there when my wife was Susan. She was they they picked I remember they picked her up and uh and was Susan pregnant at this time? She was pregnant with Henry. They picked her up and they told her that it was fifty fifty chance of me

Presenter24:10

And with

Frank Warren24:16

Making it?

Frank Warren24:18

Thankfully I did. Um and I can remember she was there. You lost part of your lung. I lost part half half my lung, yeah. And some bits of ribs and that, yeah.

Presenter24:24

Yeah.

Presenter24:26

Did you ever fear for the safety of your family? I mean, if somebody is willing to track you down and pull a gun on you.

Frank Warren24:31

Well, did I f no, I didn't actually. I but I I tear, nobody would have if anybody had tried to harm my family then I I I I mean, you know, my natural reaction was to go and do to somebody what they do to what they did to me. I'll be honest about that, it was, but uh that's not the way to be.

Presenter24:48

Do you mean literally pull a gun on them yourself or get somebody else to talk about?

Frank Warren24:50

I think there is a t I th if that had happened to me younger in my life, I th I would have probably have done that, without a doubt. So I'm pleased that um it happened when I was older. But I don't think about it, I just m moved on I moved on from that a long time ago.

Frank Warren25:04

Tell me about your next piece of music then, what have we got? Uh it's a as you gather, I like soul music's temperament. This is this uh The Temptation's one of my favorite, favourite songs called uh Since I Lost My Baby.

Speaker 325:16

The sun is shining, there's plenty of light A new day is dawning, sunny and bright

Speaker 325:26

But after I've been crying all night

Speaker 325:30

The sun is cold and the new day seems old Since I lost my baby Since I lost nothing

Presenter25:46

That was the temptations and since I lost my baby. We were talking there, Frank Warren, about this very dramatic moment in your life that obviously had huge personal implications for you and your family and whether you carried on in business, but also implications for the people who worked with you, for banks lending to you. It was at a crucial moment in your business life. You were in partnership with Harvey Goldsmith, the London Arena, which was a huge project. You imagined for yourself, did you, a life beyond boxing, a life where you would have well, there were big entertainers who played at London Arena.

Frank Warren26:17

They were. I mean, we've had Roddy played there, uh I brought Frank Sinatra over, you know, getting the Axe in there. That was happening. At that time I I'd bought Harvey and Ed Simons out, who was his partner.

Frank Warren26:28

And I was just before I got shot, I was putting together a syndication deal with a group of banks who actually were going to take an equity position in London Arena, which would have seen it in it would have seen everything okay.

Frank Warren26:39

Everything was going great. The shooting caused a lot of problems. Then, if you you know, is it

Presenter26:43

But is it a problem?

Frank Warren26:43

Yeah.

Presenter26:43

Uh

Frank Warren26:43

It was because the bank

Presenter26:44

Or other people don't necessarily want to work with somebody who could get a gun pulled on him in the street.

Frank Warren26:45

People thought that

Frank Warren26:47

I mean, there were some couple of the banks were quite s supportive, but the syndication thing that I was putting together for the banks to take equity in the arena fell away.

Frank Warren26:57

The killer for us was the interest rate went to sixteen percent. It was a bad recession, we were paying three four percent of our base rate.

Frank Warren27:05

And then I was fighting for for survival. I was worried about, you know, losing

Frank Warren27:09

The security of the home with the family, the kids, and all that sort of stuff.

Presenter27:14

Was your home leveraged uh up against your business at that point?

Frank Warren27:17

Everything, yeah, I put everything'cause I believed in what I was doing, so I put everything in. Foolishly did it, but that's what I did.

Presenter27:22

Right. In the end, what did it mean for your business? I mean, can you quantify it in terms of money that you lost?

Frank Warren27:27

Yeah.

Presenter27:27

Yeah.

Frank Warren27:27

It nearly ruined me. I was sort of like f I I had personal liabilities for in those days around fourteen million quid. And what I did, again, my bit of pride and a bit of my bit of arrogance, whatever you want to call it, I re we really, really carried on and carried on trying to find a solution for this. I should have pulled the plug a long time before.

Presenter27:44

I mean, it had huge implications for you in the subsequent years. You were disbarred from being a company director because, I mean, that to somebody who. Is used to being in control. To somebody who has huge business ambition, that must have been a crucifying thing.

Frank Warren27:57

It was. I mean, it's the stigma of it, obviously, and I did deserve.

Frank Warren28:01

I was supposed to be banned at one time, but the problem was that we couldn't get our accounts done. We couldn't file the accounts because we had no money, and the accountants wouldn't do it without the money. It wasn't something like a corner shop, it's quite a big business.

Presenter28:11

What about the air that surrounds boxing?

Presenter28:16

And inevitably will end up surrounding you, which is, you know, boxing's dodgy, everyone knows that.

Frank Warren28:20

It's it's got the Hollywood image. I mean, you could say that probably about the music industry. You know, Tim Pan Alley, you can go back to those days, you hear some of the old stories, you can go back to the movies, you you know, in all walks of life probably that that that could be.

Frank Warren28:33

But in this country it's a very well regulated sport. It's there's none of this nonsense, there's no crooked fights. I mean the age of tabloid journalism where you've heard jockeys going to prison, horse race trainers going to prison, cricket scandals, rugby scandals, footballers going to prison, even ice skaters breaking each other's legs. In boxing there's never been anyone going to prison for fixing or throwing a fight.

Frank Warren28:56

Tell me about your next piece of music then, what have we got? My next one is uh Al Green and Lol Love It, and it's a favorite s song of mine written by William Nelson called Funny How Time Slips Away.

Speaker 329:06

I'm not doing it.

Speaker 329:09

Well, I guess I'm doing fine.

Speaker 329:16

It's been so long now.

Speaker 329:19

And it seems well.

Speaker 329:22

It was only.

Speaker 329:24

Yesterday.

Speaker 329:26

Ain't it funny how time slips so free?

Presenter29:34

That was Al Green and Niel Lovett and funny how time slips away. So boxing obviously, as you say, it's it's made a fortune for many boxers and it's certainly made a fortune for you, but that hasn't nourished you, you feel then? Is it is that where the regret is? I mean you spoke right at the beginning about this sense of regret about that you that sort of hangs uh hangs around you a little bit.

Frank Warren29:50

Race about

Frank Warren29:54

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's a love-hate relationship. I'm not sure. I've met some really interesting now I could never have dreamed of. I mean, I've

Frank Warren30:00

Nelson Mandela, after Sugar Boy Malinga beat Nigel Benny's office, called me the next day. Forty eight hours later, I'm in Joe Burg in Nelson Mandela's house, meeting this guy who's probably who for me was probably the most impressive person I've ever met.

Presenter30:13

What did you talk about?

Frank Warren30:14

You talked about boxing. You talked about boxing. Did you? You just talked about boxing. And I just thought to myself, you know.

Presenter30:14

Also bad book.

Frank Warren30:19

What got me here to meet this man with boxing?

Frank Warren30:22

It's been good for me boxing in that point. It's obviously provided a you know a a house for my family, it's provided you know an education and so forth, so I'm really grateful for that. And I think I've achieved a lot as far as my side of the sport, being a promoter and a manager, but for me there's still something I feel within me that I need to do and I don't know what it is and I and you know hopefully I'll I'll find that. Does Susan, your wife, try to persuade you it's time to stop?

Frank Warren30:45

She says to me sometimes, you know, this is not good for you. It doesn't make you feel good about yourself sometimes. She has said that to me, but you know. What is it that makes you feel about yourself?

Presenter30:52

What is it?

Frank Warren30:54

I just feel that I I give, you know, I do give to to fighters, you know.

Presenter30:58

Right.

Frank Warren30:59

Because if I'm with you, I'm with you. Whatever I can do from my what I have to do, I will do that and 100% more.

Frank Warren31:05

I do put my heart and soul into what I do. I'm very passionate about what I do. Maybe sometimes you can give a bit too much. I don't know whether you do or you don't. Maybe I give too much. I don't know.

Frank Warren31:15

You've got to have something to get up for in the morning. I mean, you get up for your family, you get up for your, you know, whatever, but you need something, I think, for your soul. I don't want boxing to be my soul. As I said earlier on, I want to be doing something that I can get up for and hopefully that I'll get something out of. So, will it be boxing? I don't know, but I don't think I'll just wrap up and that'll be it. Let's have some more music then. It's your final disc. What is it, Frank?

Frank Warren31:37

Great song, listen. It does it brings back a lot of good memories for me. It's Arifa Franklin and it's Doctor Feelgood. And what are the memories? When I was a kid, I I mean I I remember first hearing this song, you know, I couldn't believe it. I mean it's real gutsy soul, greatest soul singer of ever, Arifa Franklin, and one of the greatest songs ever. He's not gonna tell me the memories. Yeah.

Presenter31:54

See it.

Presenter31:55

Ha ha ha.

Speaker 331:56

Chain cap business.

Speaker 331:59

It's really this man's game.

Speaker 332:05

After one view, the good doctor feel good.

Speaker 332:09

Yeah.

Speaker 332:11

Understand why I feel

Speaker 332:20

Oh, good God Almighty, the man show makes me feel real.

Presenter32:26

That was Aretha Franklin and Doctor Feelgood. We come to the point where I'm going to give you the books now. I'm going to give you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare. What's your third book? Treasure Island, Robert Louis Stewart.

Frank Warren32:35

The Treasury Island.

Frank Warren32:36

Yeah.

Presenter32:38

Uh

Frank Warren32:38

Because you love it or because you think it's appropriate? It'd be appropriate, but I do love it. And it's one of the first books I remember as a kid reading, and he scored the.

Frank Warren32:45

Library just off of Rosebury Avenue in Finnsbury called the it was called Treasure Island and I remember getting the book out and reading it.

Presenter32:51

Okay, that book is yours. And of course, you can take to the island some sort of luxury. What's your luxury?

Frank Warren32:56

I've been struggling with this, but I think it'd be a grapevine, probably a mellow grapevine with a bag of.

Presenter32:57

Yeah.

Frank Warren33:01

Pomoro

Frank Warren33:02

So when I try and cultivate myself some wind,

Presenter33:05

Nice, nice idea. And if you had to choose just one of these eight disks here today, which one disc would it be?

Frank Warren33:12

Uh Billy Holiday, don't worry about me.

Presenter33:14

Yeah.

Presenter33:15

Frank Warren, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Frank Warren33:18

Thank you.

Presenter34:04

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio Four website bbc. co dot uk slash radio four.