Sir Stuart Rose

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand nine.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is Sir Stuart Rose. For the past five years he's been the boss of Marx and Spencer, holding a very British institution and indeed the nation's knickers in his hands. Brought in to boost sales and fight off a takeover bid, he's seen by many as the store's saviour.

Presenter0:46

And it's not the only High Street giant he's lent a hand to. Argos, Debenhams, Dorothy Perkins, and Evans are among the others that he's dug out of a hole.

Presenter0:54

He concedes there have been times when his will to keep the tills ringing has meant his family life has come second but now that the company's next chief executive has been announced, he can look to the future a time when he'll finally be able to step off the shop floor. I'd like to go to morrow, he says, but I can't. I've got to get the company through the recession and then go gracefully.

Presenter1:17

You'd like to go to morrow? I'm not sure I believe that, Stuart Rose.

Sir Stuart Rose1:20

Well, not exactly. But obviously, I said that I would get the company through the recession, having spent the previous two or three years repairing some of the infrastructure. And the next thing we have to do is to find a chief executive. And I'm delighted that we have this week announced a new chief executive, Mark Bolland from Morrisons, who I think is the man to take the business forward for the next decade.

Presenter1:38

That's the nice PR bit over. But I I want to ask about you. I mean, I'm sure he is a very capable man. He's from Morrison's, he knows what he's doing. But that is, um, it took a year to find him.

Presenter1:47

Does that mean now that he's in place we can get a date from you as to when you are finally going because you right now you are chairman.

Sir Stuart Rose1:54

Yes, I'm very conscious though that life moves on. I'm very conscious that you mustn't outstay your welcome. So what I want to do for Mark is to get him saddled up, give him all the help that I can to make sure he's comfortable, his feet are under the table, what other metaphors we can come up with, and then move on gracefully. And that's what I will do. And it's probably the case that I'll be there through till the end of 2010, early 2011, and move on.

Presenter2:15

And what about the status that goes with it? I mean, you know, it's as close probably as retail gets to being a bit of a rock star. Will you miss that?

Sir Stuart Rose2:23

Um, it's an it's an immense privilege. I won't deny that I get a lot of pleasure from it, but that is balanced by the the responsibility that goes with it, and I'm very conscious of that as well. But yes, of course, I've enjoyed my time. If somebody said to me again back to two thousand four, would you like another crack at it? Yes, please.

Presenter2:38

Have you thought about the last day? Have you thought about the moment when you say goodbye to your PA and you close the door on the office and you walk down those stairs for the last time?

Sir Stuart Rose2:46

My PA'll probably kill me for saying this, but I think she'll come with me.

Sir Stuart Rose2:50

But not retiring then. No, when I go from the business, I will go. I I won't go back. I won't comment on the business. And I think it's absolutely right and proper you shouldn't manage from the back seat. You shouldn't be lingering. You should go.

Presenter3:01

I mean, you look uh t to be a very useful man in his sixties, but you are just embarking on your sixties now. You've got no intention of retiring when you stop.

Sir Stuart Rose3:08

Well, I don't believe in retirement. Just because chronologically you reach the age of 60 on a Friday, let's say, that on a Saturday suddenly you're useless on the scrap heap. I will definitely work. Either work at a company where I can use the skills that I've got, or I would like possibly to work in a smaller company, maybe with some young entrepreneurs, and if you like, be the voice of experience who can help them develop a brand. But absolutely right, I will not sit and watch cricket and lie on my deck chair. I've got lots of things I'd like to do, and I see myself sort of dropping dead on the job.

Presenter3:36

Why does that not surprise me? Tell me about your first piece of music, then.

Sir Stuart Rose3:39

Well, my first piece of music is ELO, and this is Mr. Blue Sky. This is what I call my M ⁇ S song. It's my M ⁇ S song that takes me very much back into the 70s when I was a young man in the business, making my way, just got married, had kids, and it was a hot hit at the time. And I didn't really ever know, or imagine, because one doesn't, that it would come back to me 30 years later when it was the song that we used for our first TV ad when we rejuvenated the business back in 2004-05. Steve Sharp, my marketing director, put together a great ad and this piece of music with it. So it's associated for those two reasons, and I think it's a great piece of music.

Speaker 44:15

The sun is shining in the sky.

Speaker 44:18

There ain't a bell in sight, it's not raining, everybody's in the lake And don't you know, it's a beautiful day

Speaker 44:29

Hey

Speaker 44:31

Running down the avenue

Speaker 44:34

See how the sun shines brightly in the city On the streets where once was Betty Mr Blue

Presenter4:44

That was E. L. O. and Mr. Blue Sky. And you were saying there, Stuart Rose, that that really is a song that sort of spans your entire career with MS because you were there in the sort of mid-70s, you were starting off on your career, and then you used it in this. It was really a seminal moment in the marketing of Marx and Spencer's when these big, sexy, glossy ads sort of stated your case of what you thought MS was about. And what have you had? You've had the Shirley Bassey one, which was.

Sir Stuart Rose5:11

Well, we do a Christmas ad every year, and I'm not going to be able to do that.

Presenter5:11

Well, we do a Christmas ad every year, and I'm not going to.

Sir Stuart Rose5:13

Did they cost a fortune? Well, not a fortune in real terms and certainly completely comparable with other companies. And it absolutely caught the public imagination. It put Marks and Spencer back on what I call shoppers' radar screens. And hopefully we can stay there.

Presenter5:29

And was there for you a degree when when you stepped back to Marks and Spencer's in two thousand four, given that you'd been there in the seventies and and you'd you'd risen to to good heights within the company, was there a sense of nostalgia when you b went back?

Sir Stuart Rose5:42

MNS is a company that never leaves your blood. So when I was working in other companies, I was always seeing how they were getting on, looking at the stores, thinking to myself, if I were doing this, what would I do? So when I came back, of course, it it was emotional, but it was also the fact that I never left, I never felt I'd left.

Presenter5:58

Let's talk about Philip Greene. And let's talk about the moment when... Now you have to put me straight here. There was a moment in 2004. Philip Greene, who of course is a colossus in the high street and owns so many brands that people shop in every day of the week, decided that he wanted as the jewel in his crown Marks and Spencer. Now without getting into the absolute corporate detail of it, you and Philip went back a long way. But one day you parked your car in the street on your way to a meeting.

Presenter6:26

And he was there and he tried to punch you.

Presenter6:28

Is that right?

Sir Stuart Rose6:29

Well, sort of. I'll just go back very briefly. Philip, of course, had had a bid attempt at Marks and Spencer earlier in 2000, which was rebuffed. So this is the second attempt when he came back in 2004. We've never actually worked together, but we've known each other for quite a long time. And I had previously managed Arcadia, which was a business, a fashion business which Philip now owns, and took it from being pretty unprofitable to quite profitable and sold it to Philip in 2003 for quite a lot of money, which was good for the shareholders and the money.

Presenter6:34

Yeah.

Speaker 16:35

Uh

Presenter6:57

And it was good for you as well. You made a nice chunk of the.

Sir Stuart Rose6:59

Yes, I made enough money to be independent, which was very nice. But yes, you're absolutely right. When the bid came along, it was hotly contested because there was a man who had very firm views. Here was another man, myself, who felt that this company should not disappear into private hands. So there was an absolute mismatch of views. And it did get quite physical one morning on the pavement just outside Baker Street.

Presenter7:21

And did he actually smack you?

Sir Stuart Rose7:23

He didn't actually smack me, but there was some, let's have how do you say, grasping of the lapels. Vigorous grasping of the lapels.

Presenter7:30

This is not normal boardroom stuff, Stuart. This is extraordinary. I mean, people usually you know, they might get heated, they might raise their voices, the lawyers might tussle, but people do not stand face to face in the street and th threaten to hit each other.

Sir Stuart Rose7:42

You're talking about two men who've got very strong views. You're talking about a £12 billion bid, one of the biggest bids probably ever had, hostile bids in the UK. You're talking about a lot of emotion and you're talking about the wanting to win. This was kill or be killed.

Presenter8:01

Well, simply, literally. Tell me about track team.

Sir Stuart Rose8:04

Well, this takes me back to my early childhood, to Africa.

Sir Stuart Rose8:08

Where my parents took me as a five or six year old back in the very early 50s. It's a piece of music from the Wagogo tribe who live effectively in the central highlands of Tanzania, Tanganyika at the time. I went back a few years ago. I took my family back with me. I took my father, my sister, and I took my children. And really delightfully, when I was there, the Wagogo tribe who come from that particular area elected me as an elder of the Wagogo tribe. I think I'm the only white elder of the Wagogo tribe. We found this piece of music, and I hope your listeners like it.

Speaker 49:03

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Presenter9:08

That was music from the Wagoga tribe in Tanzania. And you say, uh, Stuart Rose, that they you're now an elder of that tribe, and you say you took your your father uh and that was that the first time he'd been back in forty years?

Sir Stuart Rose9:17

Uh

Sir Stuart Rose9:20

Yes, my family and I left Africa in 1661 when Tanganyika, as it was, became independent Tanzania. And I met a gentleman who was trying to start the school up. He was looking for some funding. Somebody introduced me to him. He came to see me. And then from that, they sort of generated to, well, if I'm going to go, I'll take my father and my sister. And then, well, why not? We'll take everybody. So we all went out for a week.

Presenter9:41

What did your father make of that trip?

Sir Stuart Rose9:42

I think it was quite an emotional time for him. My father is not English. He was born in China and came here and was absorbed into this country just at the start of the Second World War. My mother, although she had English blood and Scottish blood, actually was born and brought up in Egypt. My mother in particular, who'd not come to England at all till she was about 16, suddenly finding herself in in Warwickshire and Haling Island, probably in the middle of the winter.

Presenter9:56

My mother

Presenter10:04

And live they were living in a caravan?

Sir Stuart Rose10:05

We were initially living in a prefab directly uh when I was born in 1949, and then we moved to Warwickshire where we literally lived in a caravan with an outside uh with an outside loo.

Presenter10:14

And your father did that very British thing of changing his name to was it Harry, Harry Rose?

Sir Stuart Rose10:18

My father was born Igor Bryancev and is now called Harry Rose, Harry Ransom Rose. My father, as I say, came here very young, became a naturalised British subject, joined the REF and flew Lancaster bombers, came out, went to university, the LSE, and then decided one day that he would follow up an opportunity overseas and joined the colonial service and went to Africa, where suddenly your life was transformed. It was bright blue sky every day, warm conditions, school from 7 until 12 o'clock, afternoons off on the beach, and living very much the colonial lifestyle. It suited my parents very well.

Presenter10:52

Tell me more about your parents then, Stuart. Tell me what sort of people they were. If I'd been if I was introduced to them then, if I'd if I'd spent time in their company socially, what would they have been like?

Sir Stuart Rose11:02

Well, very charming, intelligent, educated. My father speaks better English than I do. He appears more British than I do, so he's very much the English gentleman. But somebody who had had quite a difficult childhood, his parents fled from Russia at the end of the revolution, and he was not literally but metaphorically adopted by a spinster Quaker lady called Nona Ransom, who knew a war was coming and said to his parents, Look, it's going to be very tough. There's going to be a world war. I'll take your son to England to educate him and make sure he's protected. And that's what she did.

Presenter11:33

It's an extra I mean, you talk about it in this very sort of matter-of-fact way. It's an extraordinarily dramatic beginning for somebody's life, all the things you've just told.

Sir Stuart Rose11:41

Yes, and my you know, I often think of my father, who's now eighty-six, that actually, you know, he has had a very traumatic life. And my mother, again, came from a difficult background, from a family of cotton growers in Egypt. Her father died when she was very young. I think her child was quite difficult.

Presenter11:57

Did they talk

Sir Stuart Rose12:06

Did they talk to you about those times? A little bit. I never met my grandfather on my mother's side because he died very young, and my grandmother was never around. She was a very tough-minded, independent lady. So it was quite a disparate family. And therefore, for me, the African part of my childhood, which is when our family was together and our early formative years, is an important memory for me.

Speaker 412:18

Yeah.

Speaker 112:18

Um

Presenter12:28

Let's talk about that in just a second. For now let's have some music, though. Tell me about your third track.

Sir Stuart Rose12:31

Well my third track is slightly unusual I think. It's Al Jolson and it's Mammy and it absolutely is one of my earliest childhood memories. We were very privileged as children. My father and my mother actually were very adventurous. We were traveling abroad when we used to come back on home leave. We used to go from East Africa up to Venice or Trieste by boat for three weeks and then my dad would have a car which he would buy and we would travel across the continent back to England and it would sometimes take three or four weeks. And we used to be family together, go downstairs and have a meal and we used to sort of entertain our parents and our parents used to entertain us and I can remember with my sister singing this song to my parents. I can still remember my parents literally falling about laughing and it's a very evocative memory.

Speaker 413:14

Everything seems lovely when you start to roam.

Speaker 413:22

The birds are singing the day that you stray.

Speaker 413:26

But wait until you are further away.

Speaker 413:30

Things won't be so lovely.

Speaker 413:34

When you're all alone

Speaker 413:37

Here's what you keep saying when you're far from home.

Speaker 413:48

Miami.

Speaker 413:52

Limey.

Speaker 413:55

The sun shines east, the sun shines west.

Speaker 414:00

I know where the sunshine bears.

Speaker 414:04

Mammy

Presenter14:07

Al Jolson and Mammy, and memories there, Stuart Rose, of your impersonation your own your own Al Jolson impersonation to your parents on those trips back home every three years. Um you came back to Britain properly when you were thirteen permanently to go to boarding school, and that is

Presenter14:23

I'm imagining an enormous leap to take, from the feeling the warm sands of the Tanzanian beaches filter through your toes, to feeling the chilly floorboards of it was a Quaker boarding school, was it, that they sent you to?

Sir Stuart Rose14:34

Yeah, it was a very big shock. I mean I was quite insulated and I was quite naive and it was quite a shock to me therefore when I think it was a shock to my parents as well, particularly my mother coming back to from colonial Africa for 10 years, suddenly back to the UK. And it was certainly a shock to me being bundled off to boarding school, suddenly finding that this was a whole different world. And having come from literally four of us seeing each other all the time with a very close circle of young school friends in Africa to this big, cold, rather dark boarding school in York, where you got bundled off in those days at the beginning of term and you came back 13 weeks later. And yes, I was lonely and I was unhappy in the first year that I was in school.

Presenter15:12

Why did they do it, do you think? Why did they make that decision for you?

Sir Stuart Rose15:15

Well, I think for all the obvious reasons, my parents, just in the same way as most parents did, believed it was the right thing. They wanted to give me the best education. The Quakers have a very nice attitude towards life and the development of people. So it wasn't the school where you went and got beaten. This was not a school where there was fagging. This was actually, by the standards of the time, quite benign. And, you know, in terms of what it did for me as a human being, I got a lot out of it. But I was just lonely.

Speaker 115:29

Uh

Presenter15:40

Where were you academically when you arrived? I'm imagining probably not at the stage of children.

Sir Stuart Rose15:42

I will imagine

Sir Stuart Rose15:43

No, I I was I mean my academic career has definitely been difficult for me. I was about a year behind when I came back and I was always struggling, if you like, at the bottom of the year, trying to make headway.

Presenter15:54

Given that you're a very competitive person, did that give you a knock?

Sir Stuart Rose15:56

Yes, I mean I still today feel, if you like, bad about it. I didn't go to university, so there was always in the back of my mind, well, I'm going to have to work harder or I'm going to have to show people that I have got this ability because I believed I had.

Presenter16:08

To power forward the sort of businesses that you do, it takes not just a huge amount of understanding and knowledge of the way systems work and the products that you're selling, but also a great degree of personal charisma. I'm wondering where your confidence began to solidify as a youngster.

Sir Stuart Rose16:23

There's no doubt about it that my mother instilled me with a huge amount of confidence. My mother was very ambitious for me, as all mothers are for their children, but particularly so. She knew that I was struggling, I suspect, with boarding school and with academia. But she always made me feel that I had something significant to offer. And interestingly enough, I've always fallen back on that in the sense that, you know, my mum said I could do it. Well, I'll show him I can.

Presenter16:49

That's good enough for me. Let's hear some music, what's next?

Sir Stuart Rose16:51

Well, it has to be the Beatles. I came rather conservatively from Africa, wearing um regulation school uniform. I suddenly came to a place where suddenly loon pants were around, T shirts were around, people were smoking funny substances and doing funny things, and there was this rather weird music. I hadn't heard much pop music. I've chosen Hard Day's Night. I think it's a great Beatles song.

Speaker 417:12

It's been a hard day's night

Speaker 417:15

And I've been working like a dog.

Speaker 417:18

It's been a hard day's night

Speaker 417:22

I should be sleeping like a love But when I get home to you I find the things that you do will make me feel alright

Speaker 417:32

You know I work all day To get your money to buy a thing

Presenter17:39

That was the Beatles and Hard Day's Night. Stuart Rose, you go at a million miles an hour.

Presenter17:44

Even listening to you talk tires me out. I mean that in the nicest possible way. Have you always been like that?

Sir Stuart Rose17:49

I think so. I mean, I'm very conscious of it. But that's what I am. I think people like to be surrounded or have somebody around who's got sort of an energy level. I mean, you do need a high energy level to run a business like ours. And it is sometimes I find quite infectious. And I'm very lucky I was given an extra battery. I hope it keeps going for a while yet. I wouldn't change it.

Speaker 118:00

This like

Presenter18:10

Um, so let's talk about this moment. Um you'd spent seventeen years at MNS and you decided that they weren't recognizing your talents, did you? You felt somehow stymied professionally and you decided to leave. That must have been quite a big decision. I mean, you had a nice, comfy life. You were in Paris, beautiful house, kids I'm imagining at a good school by that stage.

Sir Stuart Rose18:30

Yeah, so I mean I did have a great job. I was working for a good company.

Presenter18:33

What level were you at? What was your actual position?

Sir Stuart Rose18:35

I was commercial director running all our products in Europe. And I was just coming up for 40. I'd done 17 years. I had had a few run-ins with senior management at the very top of the business. But, I mean, one of the reasons I did go to Paris was because I was banished to Paris. It was, come in, Rose, sit down, you're going to Paris. So, although it was a. Were you fuming?

Presenter18:51

Does

Presenter18:55

What do you

Sir Stuart Rose18:56

Um no, I I had been asked to go uh five years before and refused, so I didn't have much option the second time round, particularly since I was in the bad books.

Presenter18:57

Oh I

Presenter19:03

Right, but but also by the time that you have uh a relationship, a marriage established and by the time that you have children, of course, people make much more uh uh strategic decisions. They think, well, it's good for the family to stay here and the salary's good and all right, it might not be fulfilling my own ambitions, but but it works for us. You you're somebody who is always led. Are you by the the orientation of a goal and I know I can do this and I need to stretch my potential.

Sir Stuart Rose19:30

Well, if you're saying or suggesting that maybe I've taken some selfish decisions in my life, the answer is yes. Which most of us have, I don't think that's acceptable.

Presenter19:35

Which one

Sir Stuart Rose19:38

Uh

Presenter19:38

Uh

Sir Stuart Rose19:38

But I do firmly believe, and I would say this, and I think I have said it to my children and to anybody: look, you get one life.

Presenter19:38

Bop

Sir Stuart Rose19:44

You have to try and potentialize it to the best of your ability. And that's what I was trying to do. As it happened, it was a win win for the family financially because in moving it was a step up financially, but it was a big risk and I took it.

Presenter19:56

I listed all of these High Street names. There was time at Debenham's, Burtons, Dorothy Perkins, Evans, Argos. What we you were doing something different when you were involved in in these businesses. Can you explain it to non business people in a straightforward way as possible?

Sir Stuart Rose20:11

Well, the most straightforward way I can describe it is that in Mark Suspenser you were part of the machine. You had no visibility at either end. When I went outside suddenly to the Burton Group, as it was,

Presenter20:18

Okay, what

Speaker 120:18

Uh

Sir Stuart Rose20:21

Sir Ralph Alpen, who was the chairman at the time, marched in one day and asked me what I was doing about selling and acquiring properties, what I was doing about hiring and firing staff. And these were things I had never touched. And of course I learned a whole pile of new skills that MNS hadn't taught me at that time, which is why I firmly believe that if I hadn't run those businesses had that time out of Mark Suspenser, I would have been completely unqualified to come back and do the job I subsequently did.

Presenter20:43

Did you ever find any of that intimidating? Did you ever go home at the end of the night and think, God, I don't think I'm up to this?

Sir Stuart Rose20:49

At the end of the first week that I left Marks and Spencer, I was very sorely tempted over a glass of whiskey, living on my own in London because my family was still in Paris, to pick up the phone and say, Look, I've made a dreadful mistake.

Presenter20:58

Where do you go?

Sir Stuart Rose20:59

I soon got a grip of myself. Tell me what's next, Stuart. Well, what's next is is something a bit different for me. It's um Tony Hancock and it's Kenneth Williams. I have a love of flying. I have a love of the s ridiculous and this I think encompasses all those things.

Speaker 421:15

H. M. Hancock calling control tower.

Speaker 421:18

Levelling out at eighteen hundred miles per hour.

Speaker 421:21

Everything going to plan. Fine plane, tell the designer Chaffee.

Speaker 421:25

Taking her up to 2,400 miles an hour.

Speaker 421:32

Hank off to the control tower, something strange is happening. There's a peculiar knocking sound on the windscreen.

Speaker 121:34

Uh

Speaker 421:42

Seems to be coming from outside the plane.

Speaker 421:45

I'm slowing down to 1800 miles an hour.

Speaker 421:48

We'll slide cockpit open to see what's wrong.

Speaker 421:52

Good evening.

Presenter21:55

Tony Hancock and Kenneth Williams and the test pilot. Stuart Rose, you painted a picture of that early family life, both uh in Africa and back here, of of a mum and dad and a sister too, you have a sister, who all sort of wanted the best for each other. There there came a point in your life when

Presenter22:12

That family was shattered. Your mother committed suicide. You were in your mid-twenties. Twenty-six. Twenty-six. Can you tell me a little bit of what happened?

Sir Stuart Rose22:20

My mother had suffered from what would today probably be described as mild depression for a lot of her life, and she was pretty good at hiding it. But there we were. One November day in 1973, my mum I know hadn't been very well. I went round to see them at the weekend, and my mum was unusually in bed. I said, Look, I hope you feel better tomorrow. I'll call you tomorrow, which was a Monday morning. Monday mornings, where at the time there's still our terrifically busy time in our business. I made a mental note to call her at 8 o'clock. I forgot. I called her at 9 o'clock and she'd already killed herself. She left no note. And that is obviously a very shattering experience, particularly for my father, for my sister, and for myself. And it takes you a long time to get through that. She took an overdose, did she? Yes, took an overdose and a bottle of whiskey. And that was it.

Presenter23:04

And how did you begin to I mean, I I suppose.

Presenter23:07

Immediately, when the shock of something like that is still present, you're just busy doing the practicalities, dealing with the practice.

Sir Stuart Rose23:14

Yes, you have to do things. I mean, particularly and it was obviously a very shattering time for my father. And in my usual fashion, I suppose I took control and got things organized. But I then went back to work fairly quickly afterwards and I sort of locked it away for quite a long time. And it's only in the last ten years or so, I suppose, that I've unlocked it a bit more because it has had a very big effect on not only my life, but my family's life.

Presenter23:15

So I mean

Presenter23:38

And as you've had time to think about it, what have been, if not conclusions, then what have been some of your thoughts?

Sir Stuart Rose23:45

Well, my first thought is: of course, I beat myself up that if I'd rung my mum at 8 o'clock instead of 9 o'clock, she might not have killed herself. But rationality tells you that if somebody wants to kill themselves, they will kill themselves. You're angry with somebody for having done that to you. You are sorrowful 33 years this year later that you are not there to be able to say, look, what's happened? I've got married, I've had children, this is your grandchildren, this is what your family have done, so you can't talk to it to anybody. But equally, I respect people's independence, I respect people's choice, and I think my mum was obviously unhappy. That's the choice that she made. I'm absolutely certain she would not want to have caused the pain that she caused us, but we respect her memory.

Presenter24:21

Yeah.

Sir Stuart Rose24:21

Did it power?

Presenter24:22

Uh

Sir Stuart Rose24:22

Yeah.

Presenter24:22

Bond. Did you

Sir Stuart Rose24:23

It was a turning moment in my life. People have asked me, often ask me this question, did I suddenly switch off one switch and switch on another? I think what it did make me do is grow up. And it made me suddenly realize close on about mortality. It's the first time somebody close to me had died. Made me think about what life was about, possibly in a very simplistic way, but where was I going? What was I going to do? And I think that I did, possibly because I was wanting to...

Speaker 124:39

And done.

Sir Stuart Rose24:51

To be occupied put a lot of my energies into work.

Presenter24:55

And you were only twenty six. When your two children, who are now in their late twenties, when they came to the point of being twenty six, did that cause you to stop and think about really how you're going to be able to do that.

Sir Stuart Rose24:59

Yeah.

Sir Stuart Rose25:05

Actually, interestingly enough, the thing that made me think most of all was when I became 49, which was the age my mother was when she killed herself.

Presenter25:10

And you killed the

Speaker 125:11

Uh

Presenter25:11

Okay.

Sir Stuart Rose25:11

And of course you think about these things all the time. But of course there are regrets. I regret my mum's not here to be able to enjoy some of the things. I regret that she's not seen her grandchildren. I regret that my father has had quite a difficult time.

Speaker 125:11

Uh

Presenter25:22

Did it bring you closer to your father?

Sir Stuart Rose25:24

Yes, we are pretty close. My father's a very independent-minded man, but I make a make it my business to see him for lunch every month.

Presenter25:30

Where do you take him?

Sir Stuart Rose25:31

I take him to a pos restaurant usually, um and he likes that and uh his eyes light up, he gets stuck into his food, he's got a healthy appetite, he's very fit and he's eighty six next year, so he's uh he's not much to complain about.

Presenter25:42

Does he like his fine I gather you like your fine wines? Is he does he accompany you in the bottle of a lunch?

Sir Stuart Rose25:46

Well, I often don't break my lunchtime because I usually have to go back to an office meeting, but put it this way, there's never any wine left in the bottle.

Presenter25:51

I get you. Let's have some music then. Tell me uh tell me what's next.

Sir Stuart Rose25:55

Well, the next uh piece of music is something that no matter what mood you're in that absolutely calms you down. A beautiful piece of music by a singer called Filippa Giordano, who is not a classically trained opera singer, but she's singing here Casta Diva from Bellini's Norma and it's a fabulous piece of music.

Speaker 427:04

Hill base of Yond.

Presenter27:12

Filippa Giordano and Costa Riva from Bellini's Norma. Stuart Rose, you alluded to this very exotic past that you have, your family's heritage, part white Russian, part you even said your your mother was part Scottish, so was is she a quarter was she a s a quarter Scottish?

Sir Stuart Rose27:28

Probably at least a quarter, maybe a half. I can't remember the truth, but certainly as she had some Greek blood as well, so she's quite exotic.

Presenter27:33

Okay.

Presenter27:34

Passionate and often dark, all of these people.

Sir Stuart Rose27:37

Yes, I mean we are uh my mother was a pretty passionate person. She had a pretty volatile personality. I have got a pretty volatile personality myself. But I think I'm quick to say sorry. I'm certainly in the business and in my private life, if I screwed up on something, I don't mind saying, Look, I'm I made a mess of that.

Presenter27:56

Um much easier, of course, when you're the person who's pulling the strings. That's much, much easier in business.

Sir Stuart Rose28:01

Yes, absolutely, I accept that.

Presenter28:03

Yeah. Much harder in I'm I'm I know business is real life, I was gonna call it real life, but much harder in your sort of one to one with people. Do you think

Presenter28:10

Are you a difficult person to live with?

Sir Stuart Rose28:12

Um, well, I live on my own, um, which is properly expensive.

Sir Stuart Rose28:16

You you

Presenter28:16

You you were married to Jenny for twenty was it twenty five years?

Sir Stuart Rose28:18

Yes, and I'm very happily married to to somebody that I loved very deeply, with whom I have got uh two children. And sadly, uh, for lots of reasons, you know, I let that marriage uh deteriorate. Although I fir firmly believe that uh it takes two for that to happen.

Presenter28:33

Is it too easy to blame it on your work then if I you know, I mean that's the obvious

Sir Stuart Rose28:36

No, it's not about work at all, but it's about it's about the pressures of life. It's about the pressures of work, it's about the pressures of family life, it's about the way you behave. I've behaved badly on a number of occasions in my life, and you can't put the milk back in the bottle. You have to move on. Will you tell me what occasions? Well, you know, I've neglected my family. If I had treated my family in a different way, or my wife in a different way, I'm sure probably we'd be still living together, but I didn't. But as I say, I hope that the best of old relationships doesn't disappear. Equally, I'm a glass half-full man, so I'm very hopeful that there's a whole new horizons and things that I can do, find and that will excite me.

Presenter29:15

Why, you say you're a glass half full person. Would you get married again?

Sir Stuart Rose29:18

Oh, that's a difficult question. If the right person came along, absolutely.

Sir Stuart Rose29:22

What do you expect

Presenter29:22

Yeah.

Sir Stuart Rose29:22

Yeah.

Presenter29:22

Pick the right person.

Sir Stuart Rose29:23

That is another difficult question. Listen, I've had my moments. I don't know who's the answer.

Presenter29:23

That is

Presenter29:29

'Cause you're very dashing and you're very urbane and you like the good things in life. I mean, you'd you'd be

Presenter29:34

You'd be a bloody good catch for some one, Stewart.

Sir Stuart Rose29:36

Yes, but I'm also quite willful. I'm also quite selfish. I can do my laundry. I can do my cooking. So anybody who ever hitches a ride with me has got to be prepared, if you like, to take me for what I am. But equally, I hope that I would be prepared to take somebody else for what they are. And that's...

Presenter29:57

Is it do you think you are? You're not too set in your way.

Sir Stuart Rose29:59

No, I'm definitely not set in my ways, but I know what I like, and I'm not afraid of saying so.

Presenter30:02

That doesn't surprise me, so tell me about number seven.

Sir Stuart Rose30:05

Well, sometimes you just have to sit back and have a laugh. I'm particularly also fond of cricket, it's it's a big love of mine, and I came across this this called the Duckworth Lewis method. It's a song about cricket. It makes me laugh and it makes me think about the game that I like.

Presenter30:07

Yeah.

Speaker 130:17

I knew that I had little cause To fear their young leg spinner.

Speaker 130:24

He loosened up his shoulders, and with no run up at all, He rolled his right arm over, and he let go of the ball.

Speaker 130:37

Was jiggery pokery, trickery jokery. How did he open me up?

Speaker 130:42

Robbery muggery, Aussie Skell Duggery, out for a buggering duck. What a delivery I might as

Presenter30:48

The Duckworth Lewis Method and Jiggery Pokery. So, Stuart Rose, have either of your children joined you in the corner shop? Do they show any signs of enjoying retail in the same way that you do?

Sir Stuart Rose30:58

Well, my daughter did and uh was at Marks and Spencer for some two or three years until about six months ago. She's now gone on to do her own thing. But yes, she was in the shop for a while. But uh my son is um dare I mentioned the word, he's a banker. But um he's at a bank that neither lends money nor borrows money. So I told him it's the right sort of bank at the beginning.

Presenter31:15

Sensible man

Presenter31:17

What about a little bit I haven't even asked you about understanding the customer? I mean, do you feel when you walk down a high street that you really understand people? Can you you know, could you look at me and sum me up as a customer?

Sir Stuart Rose31:29

Well, I won't say that I can do it all the time, but I think there is no doubt about it that to be successful retailers, whether it be Marks and Spencer or anybody else, the trick is to understand what the zeitgeist is, to understand what the mood of the moment is, and then to try and deliver that just ahead of when the customer wants it. That's the trick.

Presenter31:45

Yeah.

Presenter31:46

And will you

Presenter31:48

I mean, you're going to be on a desert island. You won't miss the complaining customer, I'm sure, of which there must be plenty.

Sir Stuart Rose31:53

Uh I probably won't miss that bit, but uh

Presenter31:56

What's been the worst? I mean, don't name any names, but what have been some of the more infuriating complaints?

Sir Stuart Rose32:00

Thank you. MS is expected to behave to a different standard to other retailers. I'll give you some examples, and some I understand and some I'm less understanding of. But we accidentally printed a T-shirt for a child which showed a child being bottle-fed, and within minutes I had the chairman of the National Association of Midwives on the phone threatening to boycott Mark and Spence if we didn't remove it. I mean, I understand the reasons behind it, but it's a business which is judged all the time on how it behaves and what messages it sends out.

Presenter32:31

So you're seen as a sort of standard bearer for a nation.

Presenter32:37

Do you ever want to say Madam Sodoff?

Sir Stuart Rose32:40

I have say it's crossed my mind from time to time, but of course we'd never do that. I will admit this much. We do have a lot of mail that comes in. I try my best to answer most of it. If not, it does get diligently dealt with. But we also ma we do keep a nutters file and that is a file of letters which are either incredibly rude

Presenter32:44

Yeah.

Speaker 132:53

Yeah.

Sir Stuart Rose32:57

Or incredibly funny, or just incredibly bonkers. And sometimes when I'm feeling really down, I bring it out and have a laugh with my secretary.

Presenter33:03

Our Paxman in his pants in the Nutters File

Sir Stuart Rose33:05

I couldn't possibly say it.

Presenter33:08

So do you take it out at Christmas parties? The Nutters Fire. Right off

Sir Stuart Rose33:12

Uh

Presenter33:12

There you go.

Sir Stuart Rose33:14

I might publish it one day or sort of add anonymous letters or something or insults that I have had to put up with.

Presenter33:18

Four cells that I have.

Speaker 133:19

Uh

Sir Stuart Rose33:20

I have a letter once to say that I was the most arrogant and self-opinionated man since Tony Blair. I'm not sure if that was a compliment or not, but.

Presenter33:21

On that

Speaker 133:21

Uh

Presenter33:27

I don't think it was. On that basis, let's hear your final track, it seems more appropriate now than at any other time.

Sir Stuart Rose33:33

Well, um I've chosen a record which is by the Smiths. It's uh slightly tongue-in-cheek. Heaven knows I'm miserable now it's called. It reminds me sometimes of difficult times, but it also reminds me to laugh at those difficult times, bring yourself and rise above it and just smile, because there's plenty to look to smile about in life and I am a cheerful chap.

Speaker 433:51

I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour But heaven knows I'm miserable now

Speaker 433:59

I was looking for a job and then I found a job And heaven knows I'm miserable now in my life

Speaker 434:12

Why do I give valuable time?

Speaker 434:16

To people who don't care and find

Presenter34:21

That was the Smiths, and heaven knows I'm miserable now, with your tongue firmly in your cheek, Stuart Rose. I'm going to give you uh the complete works of Shakespeare now, and the Bible, and you can take a book. What book would you like to take?

Sir Stuart Rose34:32

Well, I was wondering if I could substitute the book for a a copy of The Times delivered every morning. If that was allowed, I'd very much like it.

Presenter34:37

Yeah.

Presenter34:38

That's absolutely.

Sir Stuart Rose34:39

Absolutely not allowed. Absolutely not allowed. I'll have to take then wisdom, the collective works of wisdom.

Presenter34:44

Okay, that's all. Yeah, if they do them in one bound volume, you can have wisdom.

Sir Stuart Rose34:46

One down volume

Sir Stuart Rose34:48

I'm

Presenter34:49

And also, of course, a luxury, because life on the island will be pretty spartan. What's going to be your luxury?

Sir Stuart Rose34:55

Well, I thought about this long and hard, and some people probably be think I'm a wimp for choosing this, but I think probably were for me it would be a power shower delivering water at any temperature twenty four hours a day and a complete set of fresh white fluffy towels.

Presenter35:05

Right.

Presenter35:08

It's all yours. And if the waves were to threaten to to rush to the shore and wash away your discs, which one of these eight discs would you save?

Sir Stuart Rose35:16

It would have to be Filippa Giordano. I think she's got a fabulous voice. It's a lovely piece of music. She sings a great repertoire of music. But it's music to sit back, enjoy and think about life.

Presenter35:27

It's your Sir Stuart Rose. Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Sir Stuart Rose35:31

Yeah.

Presenter35:31

Pleasure, thank you.

Presenter35:39

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.