Anthony Julius

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand nine.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is the lawyer Antony Julius.

Presenter0:32

He was already renowned in legal circles when in nineteen ninety six he moved into the public arena representing Princess Diana in her divorce.

Presenter0:42

He became her confidant, and after her death the founder of her memorial fund.

Presenter0:48

A passionate defender of Israel, the case that's meant the most to him, he says, was successfully taking on the Holocaust denier David Irving. He's also a writer and academic. He's published books on literary and art criticism, and is a visiting professor at London University.

Presenter1:04

Envious colleagues have nicknamed him Antony Genius, while Stephen Fry says he's probably the cleverest person I've ever met.

Presenter1:12

Of the high profile cases he's fought, he says You're on a higher wire, stared at by a larger number of people, but in the end the only audience that matters is your own client. Let's talk then, Antony Julius, about that most particular of audiences, Princess Diana. How did you come to represent her in her divorce?

Anthony Julius1:30

I acted for her when some photographs of her exercising in a gym were published in a Sunday paper, and so we sued the paper. And then about four or five months later, she telephoned me and said that it had been suggested to her that she should divorce. And could I come over and talk to her about it? I went over and we began speaking about what might happen next. And I said to her at that point, You have to understand that I'm not a divorce lawyer, I don't do divorce cases. If I were to act for you, this would be the first divorce case I'd ever done as a lawyer.

Anthony Julius2:06

And she said to me, Don't worry, it's my first divorce, too. We'll learn together.

Presenter2:12

This, of course, was not any old divorce case which you know, they're ten a penny these days, sadly. This was the most watched divorce case in the Western world. I mean, you did you were you able to to somehow separate the amount of attention it was getting from the job you were doing, or or were you always conscious that every nuance would be dissected uh in the press and indeed at the palace?

Anthony Julius2:16

And this one.

Anthony Julius2:34

I I I mean I was conscious that it was receiving a lot of attention, but I um I didn't read the papers unless I I had to, and I just got on with the case as another case. If I had become preoccupied with what people were saying and writing about the case, it would have been at the very least a huge distraction and probably just thrown us altogether off course.

Presenter2:57

You must have, of course, formed a very close working relationship. Did you like her?

Anthony Julius3:02

Yes, I did, and I think uh we became friends, and after the divorce we used to have lunch together pretty regularly and chat, and certainly when she died I felt that I'd lost a friend.

Presenter3:16

How did you hear about her death?

Anthony Julius3:18

My brother phoned me. I have a brother who lives in the States and he saw the news of the car crash and called through and said as he turned on the television. And I got up and got dressed and drove over to Kensington Palace. About ten or eleven in the morning there were already crowds gathering.

Anthony Julius3:38

and people were coming and bringing small notes and large notes, envelopes, checks, and it was an inexpressibly painful and moving moment.

Presenter3:52

And is it the case that it was the very next day that you set up the Memorial Fund?

Anthony Julius3:57

Um Diana's private secretary said to me, What shall we do with this money? Shall we give it to the charities that the Princess supported? And I I said, Well, why don't we set up our own charity? In that way we can uh we can create a a memorial to her which will live longer than the donations themselves. The next morning I went to see the charity commissioners and and set up the charity and within a few weeks we had thirty, forty million pounds. Most of the money donated actually by Elson John, because he gave to us the rights of Candle in the Wind, uh but a a large chunk of money also given by the public.

Presenter4:36

Did it in a way help you, that you sort of had something to do? I mean, as you say, you'd gotten to know her very well indeed.

Anthony Julius4:42

Hmm.

Anthony Julius4:43

Well, I mean grief has its own has its own dynamic. It was certainly a way in which I could um give form to my sense of um of loss and perform one last service for her. Yes.

Presenter4:59

So much to talk about, answered Julius, as I hinted at in the introduction, a rich and full life has been lived by you so far. We will embark on that in a moment. But for now tell me about your first piece of music.

Anthony Julius5:11

This is a Beethoven piano sonata. One of my good friends at university was a fanatical listener, Maurizio Pellini, the Italian uh pianist. I had a r an old-fashioned uh record player with an arm that went across, and when it goes across, it means that you can listen to a piece of music over and over again. So I listened to this piece of music thirty or forty times in my room during the course of the day, and um it means a huge amount to me.

Presenter6:34

Maurizio Pollini, playing the opening of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. thirty in E major. Um is it right, Anthony Julius, that you went into the law because you thought you wouldn't be clever enough to be an academic, or at least get a good enough degree to be an academic.

Anthony Julius6:46

Yes, yes. I sold most of my books and walked off, which was a slightly histrionic gesture, I think, now that I look back on it. But in the end, it's all turned out quite well. It seems to me that I've been able to do both.

Presenter6:58

But you called it at the time what you've said it was a Faustian pact of mediocrity.

Anthony Julius7:03

I hope I didn't say that because that would be really embarrassing.

Presenter7:08

Quoting you directly, I believe.

Anthony Julius7:08

Well then then I'm embarrassed. I don't know if there's anything Faustian about it really. No. What I felt was that I um I had betrayed a commitment and that made me a bit miserable.

Presenter7:23

Explain that more.

Anthony Julius7:24

Well, uh since I since I was twelve or thirteen, I I I I've just been absolutely passionate about English literature and the study of literature. And I thought that that's how I would spend my life teaching and writing.

Presenter7:38

You did get a first though from Jesus calling.

Anthony Julius7:40

Yes, yes, I did, yes. I just I had this sense that I wasn't good enough for the university and for the for the high standards that it expected.

Presenter7:50

Whether it be academia or the law, of course, most people in those professions do not have a high public profile. Most people. How comfortable are you with your public profile?

Anthony Julius8:00

Um well, I don't particularly like it, but I don't really spend any time thinking about it. When I started acting for The Princess of Wales I realized that the huge light that uh she shone everywhere would shine on me along with others that she had relationships with and that inevitably I would look luminous. But that was an illusion.

Anthony Julius8:25

Uh

Presenter8:25

But also be criticised, but also sometimes written of in very unflattering terms.

Anthony Julius8:31

Yes well there it is.

Presenter8:34

Yes. Do you have a sort of carapace that save all

Anthony Julius8:36

No, I don't. I don't have a carapace. In fact, mostly I I deal with it by not reading it. Right. That's the way I I protect myself.

Presenter8:41

Right.

Presenter8:43

Um what about the the tall poppy syndrome, of course? I mean I mentioned in the introduction the Anthony Genius thing, you know, that is clearly somebody having a bit of a go. And I noted in some of the profiles that I read in preparation uh for speaking to you, I remember one in in particular that I know I think um the newspaper in question had to publish a retraction subsequently, where they spoke about your Jewishness, meaning that you would I can't remember exactly what the phrase was, but essentially meaning that you would be happy not to play fair.

Anthony Julius9:10

Yes. I mean this was it was a piece after we announced the divorce settlement and the comment was that of course Diana got a good settlement because she was represented by a Jewish Labour Party supporter, an intellectual, of course even worse. The Western South Wall, yes. Yes, a Jewish intellectual who didn't understand the principles of fair play, which was an interesting assessment of the of the outcome of the case. Apparently a number of people had complained. I d tr true to my principle of not reading the papers, I did not see it. And then the legal director of the paper phoned me and said, Oh, Anthony I mean who I knew, Anthony, a number of people have complained, what do you want us to do about it? Well, let me read it first. And I read it and he said, well, what do you think? I said, well, I don't know. It's up to you. It's not discreditable of me. It's discreditable of you. You must do what you think is right.

Presenter9:26

The western south of all, yeah.

Presenter10:03

And they pr printed a retraction.

Anthony Julius10:04

Uh yes, they printed a r a a retraction ap apologizing if if anyone misunderstood what they said as a piece of anti-Semitic abuse.

Presenter10:14

Let's have some music, what's next?

Anthony Julius10:16

Vaughan Williams was my really my first love. I used to listen to him with my very best friend at school, Geoffrey, from I suppose thirteen or fourteen, and this is um one of the five mystical songs.

Speaker 310:33

my life, such a wave as gives us breath Such a tool that ends our strife Such a life as gives

Speaker 311:06

Such a lighter shows a feast, such a feast as men delay.

Speaker 311:17

Such a strength has made.

Presenter11:27

Thomas Allen singing the call from Five Mystical Songs by Vaughan Williams.

Presenter11:32

You're listening very intently uh there, Anthony Julius. Do you can you remember the the first moment of listening to that piece of music?

Anthony Julius11:36

And

Anthony Julius11:40

I was sitting in my friend Geoffrey's bedroom in Earls Court, and I think at that point I was seventeen and um we'd both started um probably completely wrongly smoking pipes. And we let's just be clear, this is

Presenter11:53

Let's just be clear, this is pipes with tobacco in them.

Anthony Julius11:56

Yes, pipes were tobacco. And we were just puffing away on our pipes at two old men.

Presenter11:57

Guys

Presenter12:02

As young food

Anthony Julius12:02

Yeah. Two young foggies before the term was even conceived.

Presenter12:02

Stop!

Anthony Julius12:06

Yeah.

Presenter12:06

Did you quite like that separateness?

Anthony Julius12:07

No, no, I mean I didn't I didn't really think about it. And it's not true that we were utterly weird. I didn't say that. No, but you did strongly imply it. There w we went to the proms and there were plenty of plenty of people of our age and we listened to other music too.

Presenter12:13

Then you say

Presenter12:20

Right.

Presenter12:24

We're going to hear some of it in a moment. But before that, let's talk about you at a much younger age. You were brought up.

Presenter12:31

Uh in a home that w a well-off home. Your father was a very successful.

Anthony Julius12:34

He was a successful businessman. He was a mensaware retailer. He had a number of menswear shops.

Presenter12:40

And you were very much encouraged towards books. Your parents realized

Anthony Julius12:43

They were they were very good parents because they followed my enthusiasms. They didn't push me. So it was the kind of household where we weren't particularly encouraged to read, but once we, so to speak, declared our enthusiasm, we were then given all the support we needed to pursue it.

Presenter13:00

And your father had left school at thirteen.

Presenter13:04

Do you think I mean, was he encouraging his children towards an academic path?

Anthony Julius13:07

No, I don't. I think he was, um

Anthony Julius13:10

Actually, um he was a little frightened about it.

Anthony Julius13:14

He was a little intimidated by the thought that uh that his son would uh would take that path. I remember when I brought home my Cambridge University application form with great pride and excitement. He he smiled quite wanly, I mean only kindly, but said to me, Don't grow away from the family and handed it back.

Presenter13:41

What did you make of that at the time?

Anthony Julius13:42

I I thought it was an indication of his own insecurity and anxiety that that education would come between me and him. I sensed the anxiety. I didn't feel that it had any basis in reality, but I could see it worried him.

Presenter13:56

I didn't

Presenter14:01

And so it was a close family there.

Anthony Julius14:02

Yes, yes.

Presenter14:04

Tell me about the sort of atmosphere at home, if if you can describe it.

Anthony Julius14:06

I am the oldest of four boys. It was a lively, happy household. My father worked very hard, very long hours. My mother kept the house and looked after us. We met for dinner every night.

Presenter14:10

There were how many boys?

Presenter14:13

Try it.

Presenter14:24

And was faith important to you?

Anthony Julius14:26

We were typical.

Anthony Julius14:28

I think Anglo Jews that's to say, we were not overburdened by theological anxieties or interests. We had a broadly kosher home. It was a comfortable kind of faith, comparable to, you know, a certain kind of Anglicanism.

Presenter14:46

I said that we were going to hear some music that probably was more I mean, I'm not sure exactly when this next track was released, but it probably was what was the late sixties.

Anthony Julius14:54

Late sixties

Anthony Julius14:55

Yeah.

Presenter14:56

Tell me why you've chosen it. Tell me what it is, indeed.

Anthony Julius14:58

It's an American rock band, jazz rock band. We we used to be very precise then, called Chicago, and the opening is just thrilling and I remember being I'm just so excited by it.

Speaker 315:11

Waiting for the breakup

Speaker 315:18

Searching for something to say

Speaker 315:24

Dancing lights against the sky.

Speaker 315:31

Bling up at so fire

Speaker 315:35

City Crossway and the

Presenter15:40

Chicago and twenty-five or six to four. I'm very keen, uh Anthony Julius, that I don't paint you as a young fog with your pipe at the time. What were you wearing when you were listening to Chicago?

Anthony Julius15:49

Oh, flared no, bell bottom trousers. My favourite ones had buttons, metal studs up the sides of the flares. Maroon leather boots with a zip up the side and a granny vest with those T shirts with three buttons. And I had um shoulder length hair, which was quite frizzy, so it would fly in lots of different directions, which I thought looked great.

Presenter15:57

Oh yeah.

Presenter16:18

Not so very different from how you look today, in effect.

Anthony Julius16:20

Um entirely different from how I look today.

Presenter16:22

Yes, you're in a very sober Grace. Very sober. Very lawyerly. Um so the eldest of four brothers, I'm wondering what was it a I was going to say it was competitive, I've got no idea. Was it a competitive household?

Anthony Julius16:24

Very sober.

Anthony Julius16:32

No, it wasn't actually. And we we all got on with what we wanted to do, but we were not competitive with each other, and and we're still not.

Presenter16:39

And you say that you met in the evening for for dinner with your parents. Di was it a a good lively dinner table at night?

Anthony Julius16:42

Yeah.

Anthony Julius16:47

Yeah, and my mother's a fantastic cook. She used to make I used to go to school in the morning thinking about what I would eat that evening, which is probably not tremendously healthy, but anyway, it was always a high point of the day. And I think we appreciated it, and it meant that the meals took their time and there was a lot of chat.

Presenter17:04

Yes, what was the chat around the table? Was it about the news of the day? Was it about the same thing?

Anthony Julius17:07

No, a bit a bit about about school and about my dad's uh business life. And we were brought up to think and talk about how the living was earned and what was involved in working and running a business.

Presenter17:22

Did he expect that that any of his four sons, indeed all of his four sons, would go into the business?

Anthony Julius17:25

I mean, I think he hoped for it and I think he was disappointed when it became clear that uh certainly the the uh older uh siblings were unlikely to go into the family business.

Presenter17:38

So tell me about hearing that you you mentioned uh the application form for Cambridge. Can you remember the day that you found out that you'd won a place?

Anthony Julius17:42

Okay.

Anthony Julius17:45

Yes, I'd actually been working in one of the shops and I came back with my father and we found the telegram on the doorstep. It had been there all day. And I was tremendously excited but completely surprised. And I phoned my English master, who was very important to me and still is. And I told him and I told him how surprised I was. And he said, Well, you never ever have a sense of what you can do. I was utterly taken aback.

Presenter18:16

And your father was at a bittersweet moment.

Anthony Julius18:18

No, I think he was only happy and proud. I don't want to overstate his anxiety.

Presenter18:18

Uh

Anthony Julius18:22

But I understand as a father now the anxiety of watching one's children grow up and become independent.

Presenter18:28

Hmm.

Presenter18:29

Let's have some music, what's next?

Anthony Julius18:32

This is a piece of music by Debussy. Again, I started listening to Debussy in my late teens. This is a string quartet, which is wonderfully intelligent and clearly articulated.

Presenter19:48

The Talech quartet playing part of the second movement of Debussy's string quartet in G minor, and as he said, Anthony Julius wonderfully intelligent and clearly articulated, that could be the perfect description of a great lawyer, I'm thinking.

Anthony Julius20:01

Possibly, but I think what a lawyer really needs is good judgment. I mean, intelligence helps and a facility with words, but to be able to make judgments about what's in the interest of the client, what would be sensible to do, what would not be sensible to do, when to sue, when not to sue, when to settle, what will matter to the client, not today perhaps, but in three months or six months' time, and to focus on that rather than the passions of the moment. These seem to me to be I mean, as I got older and reflected about what it is to be a lawyer, these seem to be more important skills.

Presenter20:34

It seems a good time to talk about the David Irving case, which uh is surely one of the most important that you've taken on, the Holocaust denier, of course. Um tell me a little about that case. Did did you ever doubt that you could win it?

Anthony Julius20:37

That is

Anthony Julius20:45

No, I mean it was not it was not a case that we were ever going to lose. There's very little credit that I should take from it because it was uh it was unwinnable for him. It's a curious thing, the way one picks up work. It was purely by chance that Deborah Lipstadt, the American professor who Irving was suing, had happened to read a book book that I had written about T. S. Eliot and knew that I was a lawyer, phoned me up, and she asked me whether I would act for her.

Presenter21:11

And just to be clear, Irving was suing her.

Anthony Julius21:13

Irving was suing her. She she had written in her book that he was a Holocaust denier and a

Anthony Julius21:19

Falsifier of history as a result, and he had taken offence at it and sued her and her publishers, Penguin.

Presenter21:27

Do you feel there is a onus upon you to take on work like that? Do you feel that in a way you are almost bound to do that sort of thing?

Anthony Julius21:36

Well, I think to be to be asked is to accept. Yes, I do. It would have been an odd decision to have said no to her.

Presenter21:43

You mentioned the book that you wrote on TS Eliot, and it it was a study of anti-Semitism. There were many people who came out in favour of your point of view, and indeed there were many who came out against it. What difference did it make to you personally that you got the backing of other people? Or was it simply enough that you had done the work?

Anthony Julius21:56

Um

Anthony Julius22:04

Well, it was a bit of a surprise to me that it should have been so controversial a book. I got to about thirty and I was beginning to feel that I'd plateaued out a bit in my career, but it occurred to me that perhaps a PhD would be a good idea, so I started doing a PhD on Eliot's anti-Semitism. I was always a great fan of Eliot's. I I first read him when I was, I don't know, fifteen or sixteen, and I thought the Waystone was wonderful, but it was clear to me that some of those poems were anti-Semitic. And I thought it would be interesting to study the place of the anti-Semitic poetry and some of the prose in the context of his work as a whole. It's not, of course, the same as Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is utterly vicious, and the denial of anti-Semitism in Eliot is just a bit inept, but that refusal to acknowledge something which is obvious is an interesting psychological mechanism.

Presenter22:57

I mean, you said you'd plateaued by the time you were thirty. Most people in possession of your career at the age of thirty would be absolutely delighted with themselves, even if it was just privately.

Anthony Julius23:05

No, I don't. I mean, I think delight and self-satisfaction are really I mean well, delight is fine in passing. Self-satisfaction is

Anthony Julius23:13

Vile. So that's not. I remember when I used to spend a lot of time with my father in his business when I was in my teens, and I noticed that he would be tremendously excited about a new project, opening a new shop, embarking on some new venture. And as soon as he'd set it going, he didn't lose interest in it, but it no longer satisfied him, and he had to move on and do the next thing. And I think I'm very much like that.

Presenter23:38

Tell me about your next piece of music, then.

Anthony Julius23:40

This is a lovely piece of music called Jerusalem of Gold, Jushalaim Schalzahat. It was composed in the early months of 1967 and of course as a result of the Six Day War it had a special resonance.

Presenter24:17

Phyllischabelle and Jerusalem of Gold. Antony Julius, how many children are there in your life? Who are you responsible for?

Anthony Julius24:26

Well, um I have five children and I have five stepchildren. I have a son Max who is uh twenty eight, he lives in Israel. I have a daughter Laura who is twenty six and I have a daughter Chloe who's nineteen, a son Theo who's seventeen and uh and a little boy Elon who's eight.

Presenter24:52

How do you fit it all in? I mean, I I sort of imagine that you're a very participative father.

Anthony Julius24:54

Mm-hmm.

Anthony Julius24:56

Yes, yeah, I hope I am. I believe I am, yes. I talk to the children I mean, the children I don't live with, um, I talk to them pretty much every day. But I mean, of course, I'm not the person to ask.

Presenter25:08

Well, if you ask me what sort of mother I am, I'd say, well, you know, a bit inept, a bit chaotic, but I do my best. I'm not seeming.

Anthony Julius25:10

That's a value.

Anthony Julius25:13

Right. Well that seems like a very good answer.

Presenter25:15

You can't have my answer. You've got to have your own answer.

Anthony Julius25:17

Can't I? All right, okay. Well, I'm I'm probably slightly more inept and slightly more chaotic.

Presenter25:23

I mean, are you similar to your y it was interesting to hear you talk about your father. It seems to me that you were quite close to your own father.

Anthony Julius25:30

Yes, I was I was close to him. I I feel very I feel very close to my children and I sometimes think of them as limbs that are s stretched out from my own body. I have no real control over, could be injured at any time, would cause me pain as if I was injured myself. But I also think of them as fully autonomous adults, or adults to be, pursuing their own lives, and one's constantly divided between the sense of them as being extensions of oneself and the sense of them as being their own people.

Presenter26:03

The constant struggle. And what do you want for them? It it it can be terrifically difficult for for children to have a very

Presenter26:10

High achieving father especially. What what do you want for your children? Have you do you bother to discuss that with them or do you try just to to watch them find their path?

Anthony Julius26:19

What do I want for them? I want all the conventional things. I want them to lead happy, fulfilled lives. I want them to realise themselves. I want them to be able to look back on their lives at some terminal point and think that they had done everything that they wanted to do and they had been the best kind of person they they could be. So, you know, quite modest goals.

Presenter26:44

Let's have some music. What's next?

Anthony Julius26:47

This actually is a piece of music that I listened to a lot with Chloe and Theo driving around backwards and forwards, and we became um obsessed with the i intro which we could all recite by heart. It's the little Stevie Wonder uh when he was I think eleven or twelve, and it's called Fingertips.

Speaker 127:07

Now want you to clap your hand, come on.

Speaker 127:11

Come on!

Speaker 127:13

Yeah.

Speaker 127:15

Stop your feet!

Speaker 127:17

Jump up and down, do anything that you wanna do!

Speaker 127:22

Yeah.

Speaker 127:23

Ah.

Presenter27:38

So, Anthony Julius, it was 2004 when your wife Dina Rabinovich started writing a newspaper column. She was diagnosed with breast cancer and her column was extraordinarily personal and very unsentimental and detailed the trials of her situation and the family situation.

Presenter28:00

Family life must have changed dramatically at that point.

Anthony Julius28:04

Yes, it was difficult. It was difficult, of course, because of the disease. And it was also difficult because we felt under some public scrutiny, some public exposure. It was the way that Dina wanted to deal with the circumstances that she found herself in, and it was and I understood it. But of course, for the family, it presented an additional challenge.

Presenter28:29

Well, Dina died two years ago. You you've now remarried. Do tell me about home life now.

Anthony Julius28:34

Yes, I'm married in July to a marvellous person, Katerina, and our home life is a very happy one. We have Katerina and her two children, Joel and Minky, and my little boy Elon, and my children from my first marriage. We've made a family life together which is deeply moving for me and rich. and rather wonderful. And I find that I've discovered a a happiness and a contentment which is remarkable, perhaps even miraculous. Certainly something that I'm deeply grateful for.

Presenter29:18

It's a wonderful thing to hear many people, of course.

Presenter29:22

Suffer the bereavement of a partner. Did you imagine ever that sort of happiness for you again? You d you talk about it very movingly there.

Anthony Julius29:31

The possibility that I would that I would uh find someone s so intimately and completely right for me as Katerina was was something that I hadn't really anticipated. So that it that it happened was both revelatory as well as being an intensely uh welcome.

Presenter29:52

Let's have some music. Tell me what's next.

Anthony Julius29:54

This is uh this is a piece of music that I first heard at the Pompidou Centre. It's Rossine's Petite Miss Solonelle. It's uh it's surprising because it has such a modern feel to it.

Presenter31:06

The opening of Rossini's Petit Maesse Solanelle. Has it been agonizing to sit here and be asked questions about yourself? I mean, you seem very uncomfortable.

Presenter31:15

in any way acknowledging that you're a person of status who other people

Presenter31:19

look up to in in so many ways as whether it's an author, an academic or a lawyer.

Anthony Julius31:24

No, it hasn't been agonizing. I mean, I I've been thinking about the selection of records I would make if I were ever to be so lucky to be invested on this for probably about forty years. So on the contrary, it's only an occasion to celebrate. But reputation, celebrity status or whatever, they fe feel to me fantastically inconsequential and ephemeral. You know, if I think about what matters to me, that aspect of my life doesn't figure at all.

Speaker 131:32

On the country, it's

Presenter31:50

I understand. Um I'm going to maroon you on a desert island. Um y you have a a life filled with family and people. I can only imagine you're going to be very lonely.

Anthony Julius31:58

Hmm.

Anthony Julius32:00

Well, I won't enjoy it.

Presenter32:02

No.

Anthony Julius32:03

And I think I'll become quite melancholic very soon. But I will have this music to listen to.

Presenter32:06

Hmm.

Presenter32:10

Yes, indeed. I is your life very busy? Is is family life very sort of robust with lots of sort of teenagers and grown-up children?

Anthony Julius32:17

Yes, it it is busy and and w wonderfully enjoyable and um enlivening.

Presenter32:25

That's life. Tell me about your final choice then.

Anthony Julius32:29

This is Aaron Copeland's orchestral suite, The Tenderland. It's a large hearted and very moving piece of music and um it always leaves me a bit choked actually.

Presenter32:43

Yeah.

Anthony Julius32:44

I did see I did see him, and I thought such a little ugly man, uh and yet such such beauty that he uh came out of him. It was a miracle.

Presenter33:57

The Promise of Living the finale to the orchestral suite, The Tender Land, performed by the Boston Symphony Orchestra and conducted by the composer, Aaron Copeland.

Presenter34:06

So, Anthony Julius, I'm going to give you a copy of the Toran, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you may have a book. What book would you like?

Anthony Julius34:13

Why the Torah? Why not the Bible? Well, I'm happy to see the English. Yeah, of course. I mean, how can one be a student of English literature without being immersed in the New Testament?

Presenter34:15

Well, I'm having a lot of money.

Presenter34:22

Well, let me give you a copy of the Bible.

Anthony Julius34:23

So um I'll have the King James Version, thank you. And your book? Well, this is of course an impossible question, but um I I've decided to take Anna Karenina. It is my favourite novel. My little boy Elon, his middle name is Lev, which is named after one of the principal characters, Levin, and I can't imagine ever being bored by the book, however many times I re-read it.

Presenter34:26

Thrice

Presenter34:32

Yeah.

Presenter34:51

It's yours, and a luxury too.

Anthony Julius34:53

Well, I um again, um impossible, but I drink a lot of San Pellegrino, so if I could have San Pellegrino on tap, I could drink it, wash in it, brush my teeth with it, and survive alongside it.

Presenter35:09

It's yours. And you said it was difficult enough to choose the eight, but I'm now going to force you to pick just one out of the eight. If you had to save just one disc, what would it be?

Anthony Julius35:18

I think the Aaron Copeland.

Presenter35:20

Anthony Julius, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you for asking me.

Presenter35:32

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.