Athene Donald

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand nine.

Presenter0:27

My castaway this week is the physicist Athene Donald.

Presenter0:31

A Cambridge Professor and Fellow of the Royal Society, her life's work has been studying the structure of every day objects, like plastic or food or plants.

Presenter0:41

Her enthusiasm for a subject is so strong that at her daughter's eleventh birthday party she couldn't resist describing the molecular structure of melting ice cream.

Presenter0:50

It was a rare case of misjudging her audience. By her own admission she was something of a swat at school. She was younger than anyone else in her year, and feeling isolated diverted her energies to work.

Presenter1:01

I knew from essentially my first physics lesson when I was thirteen years old that I wanted to study physics. She adds, I don't do things by halves. If I do something, I have to throw myself into it. Athene Donald, let me ask you about that lesson then when I said you were thirteen, the physics lesson.

Athene Donald1:19

Yeah.

Presenter1:19

What happened? What how how did the epiphany emerge?

Athene Donald1:22

It's really hard to look back that far and be sure. I just know that once I did separate sciences and was introduced to physics, it all made sense to me. It was just that's what really turns me on.

Presenter1:34

And thirteen, a very significant age for a girl in so far as for for most teenage girls, they're starting to emerge into that world of uh, you know, make up and music and and boys and all of that sort of stuff. I mean, did that interest you or or there was only one thing on your mind, and that was science?

Athene Donald1:50

Well, you mentioned that I was younger than everyone else in my year, and I think it made it much harder for me to fit in because my birthday's in May, so I was a year and quite a lot younger than some of the kids in my class, and I didn't really fit in.

Presenter2:04

So you were ten and some of them might even have been almost twelve. Yes, right. Exactly. Quite a gap at that time.

Athene Donald2:07

Yes, exactly. That is quite a gap. And I think I I didn't realize it at the time. You don't think I am that much younger and therefore I'm not as mature as them. You don't think like that. But I think that was the consequence. And it probably

Presenter2:16

You don't

Athene Donald2:19

did make it much harder for me to be socially interactive with them.

Presenter2:23

And music has played quite a crucial role.

Athene Donald2:26

Absolutely, because I think at school, when I got heavily involved in music, both in the choir and the orchestra, it gave me a group of friends of all ages who were nothing to do with that sort of social peer pressure at all. And so I could belong and be part of a community in a very different way.

Presenter2:42

Tell me then about your first choice to day.

Athene Donald2:44

Okay, my first choice is um barbershop quartet, a song called Blue Skies. When I was in the States I was having a fairly rough time and I threw myself into singing barbershop.

Athene Donald2:55

And again, I made a group of very close friends. They were all PhD students, three PhD students in the department, and we sang in a barbershop quartet and we had great fun, and it was practically sewing on the sequins by hand. I really threw myself into it, and it was lovely stuff to do.

Speaker 23:12

Eyes were grey.

Speaker 23:15

I cannot pray anymore blue skies smiling at me sweet Nothing but blue skies do I see the sea Blue birds singing a song Nothing but blue birds all day long

Speaker 13:15

I cannot pray anymore.

Speaker 13:26

Why do I

Presenter3:39

The female barber shop quartet shades and blue skies. So, Athene, you were born in North London in the early 1950s. And what about this magnificent name, Athene, the goddess of heroic endeavour, the goddess of wisdom? Were your parents exhibiting an extraordinary prescience, or is it a family name? How did it come to light?

Athene Donald3:59

That there is a cousin, a distant cousin, who had that name. I don't know, and if I say this I will probably get the story wrong and my mother will complain. But my understanding is that she and my father could not agree whether to call me Anne with an E or without, and so they gave up and called me Athene instead. There is no Greek connection.

Presenter4:17

Right. And what about living up to a name like that? I mean, something's expected of somebody who's called Atheni.

Athene Donald4:21

Hey.

Athene Donald4:22

It's a terrible name to have. It's a terrible name to have because if people know who she was then you're a subject of mockery. And if they don't know, they simply can't pronounce it.

Presenter4:32

And you say your your mother will probably correct you. I mean, what sort of what sort of parent was she? You you had a an elder sister.

Athene Donald4:38

I had an elder sister, she's two and a half years older than me. I still have a very close relationship with my mother.

Athene Donald4:45

We lived with my grandparents, and so they were also very influential in the background I had, and there was a lot of music around in the family.

Presenter4:54

And both of your parents had left school relatively early. What w how old would they have been?

Athene Donald4:57

My mother was fourteen. I don't know quite how old my father was, but he certainly didn't go to university.

Presenter5:03

Did that was that important to them that they didn't and that you should?

Athene Donald5:06

My mother was absolutely determined, having left school so early when she would have liked to go to university, she was absolutely determined that if my sister and I wanted to go to university we should. But it wasn't a pressure to make us go.

Presenter5:17

No, I see. And and you your parents separated when you were ten years old. Now, in the early sixties that that was still relatively uncommon.

Athene Donald5:23

It was, and I felt, if you like, very ashamed about it, and I never told anyone at school. And I can remember we had to write down at the start of the year our parents' address for emergency contact numbers. And I wrote two addresses down, and the girl next to me said, Why are you doing that? And I realized for two years I had never told anyone at school. And yet, in fact, at the school, Campen School for Girls, there were a fair number of pupils who had separated parents. At that time, it was beginning to get much more common, I think.

Presenter5:52

It's interesting though that children pick up on that sense of it it being s something that might be shameful or something that they can't share. That m I mean that makes me feel rather sad.

Athene Donald6:00

I think it is very sad, and I just didn't discuss it with anyone. It was something I internalized.

Presenter6:06

And so there you were living. You said your grandparents were very much part of the household. And what was your grandmother like? Was she another strong woman?

Athene Donald6:13

She was a very strong woman who surprisingly didn't seem to believe in education. I think she felt that.

Athene Donald6:19

She had succeeded without education, so why did my sister and I need it? She wasn't that supportive, but she was very strong.

Presenter6:26

And she played piano. And she played piano.

Athene Donald6:29

Yes, extremely well. I think in another generation she might have become a professional pianist. And even by the time I knew her, she was still playing.

Athene Donald6:37

Fantastically well.

Presenter6:39

Sounds like potentially it could have been quite a strong memory of her play. Did she play at home? Yes, yes.

Athene Donald6:43

Yes, yes, yes. So there was a lot of music around and uh the third programme as it was called.

Presenter6:51

Tell me about your second choice then.

Athene Donald6:52

Okay, the the second choice is part of Beethoven's Platitique, which both my grandmother played and indeed, much more recently, my daughter.

Presenter7:59

John Lil playing part of the first movement of Beethoven's piano sonata in C minor, the Pathetique. So, as we've established, Athene Donald, you were a a smart little girl, and you were sent to uh senior school when you were just ten years old, with some of your classmates being almost a year and a half older than you, some of them app approaching twelve. I mean, I imagine did you feel stretched academically at that point? Were you having to try hard?

Athene Donald8:24

I think I just naturally worked quite hard. I don't remember feeling I've got to work really hard to keep up with everyone else. Just even on that.

Presenter8:29

So even at that point it relatively easy.

Athene Donald8:34

I think so.

Presenter8:35

Uh

Athene Donald8:35

That's a

Presenter8:35

Sounds terribly smug. Well, I can tell that you feel slightly uncomfortable saying it, so I'm saying it for you. But clearly you had a brain that was capable of absorbing more than the average amount of uh information. You s you said that your mother felt that it was important that you and your sister went on to university. I don't get a sense that she thought uh specifically about what it was important that you did at university.

Athene Donald8:55

That's absolutely right. I think she was quite relaxed about that. And it was my drive to go and do science, to do physics.

Presenter9:04

And so running in tandem, as we discussed just a moment ago, there there was there was physics, there was science, but there was also music. Wh when did music come importantly in into your life outside the home?

Athene Donald9:15

I think when we got a new music master at the school, as I say, I was at a girls' school, and all the teachers were female, and then suddenly this charismatic male teacher turned up again.

Athene Donald9:25

Probably when I was 12 or 13, and he just transformed the music in the school. So the choir became something you want it to sing in.

Presenter9:32

You say charismatic. Was he a bit of a dish?

Athene Donald9:34

He had a mop of grey hair. Um

Athene Donald9:37

I think he just stood out in a way that everyone could say, Wow.

Speaker 19:41

Uh

Presenter9:41

Uh

Speaker 19:41

Right.

Athene Donald9:41

And he did wonderful music. That certainly stretched us. He took a girls' school and made us do really complicated things.

Speaker 19:41

Uh

Presenter9:48

And when you set your cap at something, then, you have to be good at it, do you?

Athene Donald9:53

Yes, probably.

Athene Donald9:54

I I don't like feeling incompetent.

Presenter9:58

Right. And and not just incompetent, but are I mean, are you competitive?

Athene Donald10:03

No, only with myself, I think. And I think that's something that people find quite hard because it looks as if I'm competitive, but I think it's me I'm competing with.

Presenter10:11

And you became a member of the London Schools Symphony Orchestra, now very, very well established. At that point it had been going for maybe sort of ten or twelve years.

Athene Donald10:16

Look at that.

Athene Donald10:18

It was still pretty well established and it was a fantastic experience.

Presenter10:22

And you would have been performing these huge, I mean, major symphonic pieces whilst.

Athene Donald10:26

Typhonic.

Presenter10:29

All the other teenagers in London were sort of going down biba and putting on their false eyelashes.

Athene Donald10:33

But but the other people in the orchestra are all in the same boat, so you don't feel comfortable with them.

Presenter10:35

Same both.

Presenter10:38

And tell me about your next piece of music.

Athene Donald10:40

I've chosen the Die Zire from Mozart's Requiem, and this was the first full scale choral work we did. When this music master turned up, he got us involved, I guess, in some inter school event. I dunno, it must have been a choir of about a thousand, and we sang at Central Hall under David Wilcox.

Presenter11:56

The D S E Ray from Mozart's Requiem. Um so, Athene Donald, you are it seems to me, we've talked already about orchestras, and we've talked about choirs, and we're only really in your teenage years. You are a you're a joiner in.

Athene Donald12:09

I like to have a community, yes, and at school being socially fairly isolated, this was a way of doing it.

Presenter12:16

And has that then become, I imagine, being a team player, that's been incredibly important in your work. I mean, scientific endeavour. It it has in the end inevitably to be a team that pushes things forward.

Athene Donald12:26

Well, it's interesting you say that because a lot of people regard

Athene Donald12:29

Cambridge academics as being quietly in a corner doing their own thing. But I think in science that's absolutely not right. And of course, I have generations of students who've come through the group, and you keep in touch with them, you remain close to previous students, particularly if they stay in academia. You want to see how they develop as people.

Presenter12:49

And as a teenager then, the the prodigious talents that you had both in music and academically, specifically in science, did it get in the way of making friends, do you think? I'm not talking about people in the orchestra, but I'm talking about people who, you know, day to day you went to school with.

Athene Donald13:03

Yes, I think it it did. I think definitely at my primary school I was always called teacher's pet. It's it's a terrible thing to stand out and you get rather shunned.

Presenter13:14

And how do you how much of an impression do you think that made on your on your character as it was emerging?

Athene Donald13:19

I think quite a lot. I think it has always been difficult for me.

Athene Donald13:23

To fit in in a certain sense. I've always felt as if I was on the fringes.

Presenter13:29

And some people glory in that, of course. Some people only choose to highlight it. And other people feel f you know, feel s feel sad about it.

Athene Donald13:35

I feel sad about it. I feel quite uncomfortable about it.

Presenter13:38

Did did it cause you during your teenage years to pretend that you weren't I don't mean in the classroom now, I'm talking about potentially at at parties or outside the school gate to pretend you weren't as smart as you were?

Athene Donald13:49

I don't think I had much of a life outside, which is such a sad thing to say. But I think I worked and I had my music and I did a bit of sport. But I think there wasn't that much of a social life outside really, so I didn't have to pretend.

Presenter14:04

All right. Do can you remember the day that you secured your place at Cambridge?

Athene Donald14:05

Thanks.

Athene Donald14:09

Oh yes. It was actually after a school concert. It was in December. And my grandfather, who hadn't come to the school concert, was walking up the road with a telegram, and he came up the road to tell us so I could run back to school and tell all my teachers.

Presenter14:23

And did you feel whilst you were at university that it was a much more comfortable social environment for you?

Athene Donald14:29

Absolutely, because everyone who was there was

Athene Donald14:33

You know, had prodigious talents, as you put it. So we were all in the same boat, and it wasn't an issue in the same way.

Presenter14:38

And what about that rati ratio? I mean, you were made a fellow of the Royal Society ten years ago. I gather it says here I've written it down because I found it quite remarkable only five per cent. of its fellows in this day and age are female. Does that matter?

Athene Donald14:52

They are trying very hard to change that number. They would love to get more women nominated.

Athene Donald14:58

The Royal Society is actually working really hard on this. They take it very seriously because they don't want it to remain an all white, all male society, which it has been for most of its three hundred and fifty years of history.

Presenter15:11

The problem with that, of course, is they don't uh lower the bar famously for anyone and and the bar is pretty high and therefore people have got to come to meet it.

Athene Donald15:20

Has it not

Athene Donald15:22

Well, they can try and encourage people to nominate more women, but I would hate the thought that they were going to lower the bar to try and get more women in. And any woman who was elected under that system would hate it too, because they would always feel second-class citizen. You've got to

Athene Donald15:37

Maintain a sort of an even playing field for both sexes, no doubt about it.

Presenter15:41

It must I'm imagining it was I mean a hugely significant moment for you then.

Athene Donald15:45

Oh, absolutely. It was staggering, yes.

Presenter15:47

What did you can you describe what it feels like?

Athene Donald15:50

I think, in fact, as time went on, I've appreciated it more.

Presenter15:55

Tell me about your next piece of music then.

Athene Donald15:57

Okay, the next piece of music is by Hindermit, part of the Symphonic Metamorphoses. This was something that I played, we mentioned the London School Symphony Orchestra, this was something I played the first concert I played with them, and it was just fantastic to be surrounded by this wall of sound, of brass instrument, wind instruments, we didn't have that many in my school. It was a wonderful experience.

Presenter17:20

The fourth movement of Paul Hindemid's symphonic metamorphosis. So, Athene Donald, here's the science bit. Let's talk about the science bit in a little bit of detail. You look essentially at soft matter, the molecules in soft matter, things like plants and food and plastics, as I said. Now, you say that it's important that you look beyond the individual molecules and you look at the molecules together. Is that right?

Athene Donald17:47

What I look at is not individual molecules, but aggregates of them. It could be on the length scale of a human cell, for instance, or one of the things we're looking at at the moment are the pores in plant leaves.

Presenter18:00

And why is it important?

Athene Donald18:02

These things underpin so much of our everyday lives. So for instance, some of the work I've been doing recently on protein aggregation, this is when proteins stick together. Now people will be familiar with this kind of problem because it's what underlies things like Alzheimer's disease.

Athene Donald18:20

I don't look at the clinical situation, but I'm trying to understand why the protein molecules.

Athene Donald18:26

Things like proteins from milk. When you heat them up, they unfold from their natural state, which is as a sort of globular shape. They unfold, they stick together, and they stick together in ways that may be useful if you want to make yoghurt. But if something like that happens in our brains and the proteins unfold and stick together, that's not good news. And so by trying to understand the rather simpler system in a test tube, I hope to get some understanding of what might be relevant to a clinician.

Presenter18:54

I see. That was a great explanation,'cause I did understand it. So if you're looking at plastic bags and their molecules and how they react under certain circumstances, you can then possibly draw a useful connection between, say, diseased brain tissue that has polymers that are similar.

Athene Donald19:10

Roughly speaking, I think a lot of what I do is making connections between things that look to be very different, and I think that's important.

Athene Donald19:19

When people ask me, what have you done? I say it's not a single Eureka moment, it's trying to draw together ideas from different branches.

Presenter19:26

And it is, I suppose, in a sense, less sexy insofar as I cannot say, so tell me about when you'll find the cure to Alzheimer's. That is not what you are doing. Right. You are doing vital research that will enable, as you say, will underpin

Athene Donald19:32

That is not

Athene Donald19:38

That's absolutely right. And I think it it's hugely important to understand that an awful lot of that work needs to go on in order to make progress, which one day will make a headline.

Presenter19:48

And what about talking about in the media on the public stage, the kind of thing that you do, you know, scientists finds what makes custard lumpy is a certain amount of money?

Athene Donald19:55

You've got that story too.

Presenter19:58

Well, you know, I mean, people do like to especially in the media, we like to characterize things simply. I mean, I've already just used the word sexy talking to you about science in an attempt to sort of open it up a bit. How frustrated does that make you?

Athene Donald20:02

It arrives.

Athene Donald20:06

Thank you.

Athene Donald20:07

Open it up a bit.

Athene Donald20:10

Well, the Lumpy Custard story was a particular disaster when I was trying to explain what a colloid was to the press. And I won't try and explain it now, but essentially colloids are things which have a lot of surface area and they tend to stick together. And so Lumpy Custard was a nice everyday example. And the press said Cambridge scientists work on lumpy custard. I didn't talk to the media for about 15 years after that. I really hated what was done because it the

Speaker 120:20

But now

Athene Donald20:38

They would not let me say that was an analogy, that is not what I do.

Presenter20:42

And by trivialising it, it's then that kind of, would you believe it? We're funding boffins to find out.

Athene Donald20:46

Exactly. I got hate mail on the back of it. It was a sort of completely unnecessary fabrication and I was deeply upset by it. And this I felt was the result of trying to make my science accessible.

Presenter20:59

Okay, tell me about your next piece of music then.

Athene Donald21:01

Okay, the next piece of music is part of a Haydn string quartet. When I was living in the States in particular, my husband and I formed um a quartet, I mean a very amateur one with another couple who were the other half of the quartet, and we played Haydn and Mozart's string quartets and had great fun.

Presenter22:15

Part of the first movement of Haydn's string quartet, number five in D major, The Lark. So, Athene Donald, you that was memories there of Cornell, and you said you and your husband with another couple uh formed this quartet. You did come back and you came uh to Cambridge, and this seems remarkable. You were the first female lecturer in the department.

Athene Donald22:34

And this would

Presenter22:34

And this would have been when?

Athene Donald22:36

Uh I got my electorship in nineteen eighty five. You're in your thirties? Yes. Yes, I'd had research fellowships up.

Presenter22:40

Yes, I

Athene Donald22:43

2022.

Presenter22:43

But

Athene Donald22:43

Uh

Presenter22:43

My first

Athene Donald22:43

Come by.

Presenter22:44

Given that you were in your thirties, was having children on your mind?

Athene Donald22:47

Absolutely. My husband and I certainly felt the time had come. I knew that there was this lectureship coming up and I went to talk to the head of department who was also to some extent one of my mentors there and I explained this to him and he said and it's a wonderful thing to be told intelligent women should have children and it was just brilliant because I knew that he would not hold it against me if I was pregnant at the time of interview for instance and it's that kind of single remark can which can make such a huge difference. If he had said, oh well if you're going to get pregnant I don't know if we'd want to employ you which at the time would have been perfectly imaginable.

Athene Donald23:27

I wouldn't be here now.

Presenter23:28

The notable scientist Susan Greenfield said that she made a clear decision, as she described it, not to have children, because she felt it would significantly interrupt her career trajectory. Did you feel that you were choosing between the two, or were you very conscious that you were going to pursue this very serious and demanding career and have children? Or did you think at that point maybe this means the science has to go?

Athene Donald23:52

I think probably

Athene Donald23:54

There was an element of naivety. I don't think I realized how hard being a mother was going to be. And I just felt my husband and I.

Athene Donald24:01

Could work around this, as indeed we did manage to, but it's a challenge. It's very hard.

Presenter24:07

What about your husband? You said that that between you you made a decision that he would I think the phrase you used was let his own career suffer after your children were born.

Athene Donald24:16

Initially, I don't think that's what we intended. He, at the time, was a college research fellow, and I don't think that was the initial intention, but my career took off and it made sense for him to put his on a back burner. I don't think he thought it would be sort of permanently on a back burner. And I think very often that's the trap that women fall into. It's very hard.

Athene Donald24:41

To get back into academic life if you've once stepped back.

Presenter24:46

Given that it wasn't a conscious choice for him to say, my career will no longer be of importance, given that it was incremental, how have you dealt with that together over the years? Has it been difficult?

Athene Donald24:57

There have been times when it's been painful, yes. Cambridge is not a city that is very forgiving if you are at a dinner and someone says, What do you do? It's very uncomfortable.

Athene Donald25:08

But it was a difficult decision that was worth making because he has seen my own career flourish, and so there is some sort of tangential reward for him. And we both believe very strongly that children need parents there in a a very sort of always available way. So it's a decision that, however painful, at least both looking at me and looking at our children, I think he can feel very proud of.

Presenter25:37

Well, I hope you'll you'll forgive me for this because it occurs to me just as the question is occurring to me that it's not something that I would ask a man in your position, but I but I'm interested to know, and maybe I can ask it'cause I am a woman, that if if there's guilt on your part that

Athene Donald25:49

Yes, there is of course guilt. One never gives enough time to one's children and I know because I'm obsessed about my work at times, I can be short with them or come home really stressed by something and feel you're not as receptive to their worries as you should be. Yes, there would be guilt. And you should ask men that.

Presenter26:11

Well, from now on actually sometimes I would have done, I think. Uh you're a workaholic then?

Athene Donald26:15

Yes, I th I

Presenter26:16

I'm afraid so.

Presenter26:18

Tell me about your next tract, David.

Athene Donald26:20

The next track is some Granada's piano music, and there is no real connection with anything with this one. It's just music I came to relatively recently and I thought was absolutely wonderful.

Presenter27:22

The Oriental March from Enrique Granathos's Sias pietos sobrecantos populares españoles. So, Athene Donald, you've just returned from Paris, where you've been collecting the UNESCO L'Oreal Women in Science Award. You're only the second British woman to become a laureate.

Presenter27:40

I wonder at this stage in your career does it matter any more when when people give you awards?

Athene Donald27:44

I think this is a very interesting award. And the answer is: yes, I think it does. I think it's a very interesting award because.

Athene Donald27:52

It is for women, and you can say, well, why should women be singled out?

Athene Donald27:56

Uh my view is that it it it's a wonderful platform.

Athene Donald28:00

To remind people and to remind young girls in particular that.

Athene Donald28:05

Being a scientist does not turn you into some ghastly mad eye man usually in a white coat, that you can still be a relatively normal person and one can have a family. I think that's a hugely important message to give.

Presenter28:19

There are women, of course, who who rail at this sort of positive discrimination. They say, well, where is the UNESCO L'Oreal Men in Science Award? And as long as women are picked out for special treatment, that actually in a way it ends up doing the opposite of what it intended to do.

Athene Donald28:22

No, no, no.

Athene Donald28:25

And there's l

Athene Donald28:31

I I understand that point of view, but I think in a way, I'm an F R S I have got success in an absolute sense. So it is just a way of celebrating women. We are still in a minority, particularly in the physical sciences. Girls do still feel awkward about it. And if you end up being

Athene Donald28:51

In a minority, you can feel very isolated, and I think it is worth celebrating.

Presenter28:55

And along with the title then comes a hundred thousand dollars, which you don't have to spend on scientific research. What do you know what you're going to spend it on?

Athene Donald29:00

Classage

Athene Donald29:02

Some of it will undoubtedly go on supporting my research group. I spent quite a lot on getting the family to Paris and having a good time there, too. That must really be. I'm glad to hear it.

Presenter29:10

I'm glad to hear it.

Presenter29:12

Um you describe then how you've managed to combine with the support, the significant support of your husband being a scientist at such a level, um, having a family. Presumably you haven't also managed to have a social life. Surely juggling all three would be entirely impossible.

Athene Donald29:27

It it is a challenge.

Athene Donald29:29

I have good friends amongst my scientist colleagues, but I don't give dainty dinner parties at regular intervals, certainly.

Presenter29:37

And I I imagine obviously you you must have to be um methodical and hugely organised in your work. Are you the same at home? Are you very domesticated? Is everything in the freezer with a label on it?

Athene Donald29:47

No. I am not in the least methodical at home. I like to think I am efficient rather than methodical, so I know where things are, but I am not a domestic goddess. I think one of the things you learn is how to cut corners. I make sure all our clothes are machine washable and non iron.

Presenter30:05

Essential for a single

Athene Donald30:06

Absolutely essential to a successful

Presenter30:08

Your your children are in their twenties now. Ha have either of them followed you into society? No.

Athene Donald30:08

Yeah.

Athene Donald30:12

No, neither of them. My son has just completed a Masters in in Finance and Economics. My daughter is reading history at university.

Presenter30:21

And what do they think of what you spend your life doing? Are they interested in it?

Athene Donald30:25

They're vaguely curious. Certainly winning this prize because there was a lot of money attached to it. They reacted very positively. They could understand that.

Presenter30:34

Tell me about your next piece of music then.

Athene Donald30:36

Okay, the next piece of music again is a string quartet. When I went into hospital to have my son James, my husband put together what you might call a birthing tape, and this was one of the pieces of music we put on that. It's Schubert's string quartet, Death and the Maiden, and neither of us referred to the title, which is singularly inappropriate for a birthing tape.

Presenter31:54

The Juilliard String Quartet playing part of the second movement of Schubert's String Quartet, No. fourteen, Death and the Maiden, and as you were saying, you chose that to be on your uh birthing tape, Atheni Donald. Your mother, who we've spoken about a bit, has been alive to see all of your success. What does she make of it?

Athene Donald32:10

I think she's absolutely delighted, but possibly slightly surprised.

Athene Donald32:16

Is she?

Presenter32:17

Uh

Athene Donald32:17

What what is

Presenter32:18

What did she say that makes you think that?

Athene Donald32:20

Well, I suppose

Athene Donald32:22

You look around, she has two highly successful daughters and you look around and so many families end up being somewhat dysfunctional and I think she's surprised that hers has turned out okay.

Presenter32:34

And given that that sh she was bright but had to finish school when she was ra you reckon around about fourteen, do you think that there is satisfaction for her in seeing that you did maybe what was denied her? Because

Athene Donald32:39

Yes.

Athene Donald32:44

Oh, absolutely. Yes, I I'm sure she's delighted that

Presenter32:45

Yeah.

Athene Donald32:48

We made the most of the opportunities that were there.

Presenter32:51

You're going to be marooned on this desert island. We we've spoken about science and working with a team. There'll be no team there, all on your own.

Athene Donald32:59

That will be tough, I think, because for all, I haven't got much of a social life. I like talking, I like being surrounded by people.

Presenter33:01

Big

Athene Donald33:07

So it will definitely be tough there.

Presenter33:09

Tell me about your final piece of music today then.

Athene Donald33:11

Okay, the last piece of music. It is music I sang when I was eighteen, but it's something I've very much come back to recently. It's from Vaughan Williams' Dona Nobis Parchum, written in the run-up to the Second World War, setting poems by Walt Whitman. It's a plea for peace, and it's still highly relevant, and it still sends shivers up my spine.

Presenter34:32

The Dirge for Two Veterans from Vaughan Williams' Donanobis Parchem. So I am going to give you the Bible, then, Athene, and the complete works of Shakespeare. You can take one more book to the island with you. What will your book be?

Athene Donald34:44

Well, I'd like to cheat slightly and take a box set of six The Limon novels by Dorothy Dunnett, because these are a wonderfully intricate series of historical novels, and I think it would give me plenty to mull over on that long time I'm stranded there.

Presenter34:57

I am going to search for it bound in one volume, I think, and give it to you under those circumstances. Then I'm feeling generous. And a luxury.

Athene Donald35:02

The circumstance.

Athene Donald35:05

A bath.

Athene Donald35:07

I feel I shall get very dirty and sand on my skin and I'll my eczema will be terrible. I'd like a bath so I can sit and read.

Presenter35:14

There you are, it's all yours. And if I were to ask you to choose just one from uh the eight tracks here today, which one would it be?

Athene Donald35:20

I would take the Mozart Requiem. It had such an impact at the start of my life and it would always stir up memories.

Presenter35:27

Professor Athene Donald, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Presenter35:38

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.