Paul McKenna

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand seven.

Presenter0:27

My castaway this week is Paul McKenna. To describe him as Britain's best-known hypnotist would be accurate, but not the full picture true. He made his name on primetime T V with millions watching incredulously as he mesmerized ordinary people into doing extraordinary things. But it's in his role as a modern day guru that he's gained significant credibility and a fortune to match. As Britain's best-selling non-fiction author, his paperbacks fly off the shelves.

Presenter0:54

And it's little wonder, with titles like I Can Make You Thin, Quit Smoking Today and Change Your Life in Seven Days, he taps into the angst-ridden preoccupations of our age with promises of serenity, contentment and control. And yet his own life has been anything but a breeze. As a boy, he was chronically unconfident and terrorised by bullies, and in his career he has twice stood in the witness box, accused of causing a man's schizophrenia, and to defend himself against possessing a fake PhD. He won on both occasions. We're going to come back to those tribulations later, Paul McKenna, because they are fascinating. But can we start with the very basics? How does it feel to be hypnotised?

Paul McKenna1:32

Well, for everybody it's different, but usually it's deep relaxation. People find that instead of being aware of lots of things, we tend to focus on one idea at a time. You could probably compare it to meditation or, you know, in business, people do a thing called strategic planning, where they relax and then imagine what their company will be doing, you know, what product or service they'll be offering in the future and what their competitors will be doing. That seems to me to be just the same as hypnosis. All the great creatives throughout history-Einstein, Mozart, Tesla, Goethe, Walt Disney, I don't know, lots of great creatives have referred to that reverie, that creative state where they get their ideas from in similar terms when they describe it as a hypnotist would to a hypnotic trance.

Presenter2:18

Can people be hypnotized to do absolutely anything?

Paul McKenna2:21

No, people won't do things that violate their morals or values. However, people can be tricked, coerced and manipulated into that. We don't need hypnosis for that. Politicians are very good at persuading us to do things that are not necessarily in our best interest, as are high-pressure salespeople or cult leaders. And these are really the modern day persuaders that use psychological techniques to get people to do things that are in their best interest but not in the interests of the individuals they're persuading.

Presenter2:52

Very firmly placed in all of our imaginations is this idea of the bloke, usually in a black suit with these rather worrying eyes and a bit of a pendulum, you know, the fob watch thing that look into my eyes. I mean, it's been updated, of course, by the Little Britain character of Look Into My Eyes, Look Deep Into My Eyes.

Paul McKenna3:06

Different to my eye.

Presenter3:07

People do have that idea that behind it all there's evil at work.

Paul McKenna3:12

Yes, well I think that, as you say, the Hollywood archetypal image, you know, the man with the swinging watch, black suit, you know, goatey beard and malevolent intentions has sort of played a part in creating that idea in the psyche of lots of people. But I'm hoping to dismantle that. I want to avoid all the psychobabble, all this the ooga booga kind of esoteric associations, because really hypnosis is just another word for thinking. And when we use hypnosis, we can get extraordinary outcomes, but it's really just a way of thinking.

Presenter3:40

Really?

Presenter3:48

Tell me about your first piece of music.

Paul McKenna3:50

First piece of music is The Beatles. I couldn't do a list of eight songs without putting The Beatles in there. I particularly like the end from Abbey Road. The lyric at the end is, And in the end, the love that you take is equal to the love that you make, which were the last words that Lennon and McCartney wrote together. And without wishing to be morbid, I suppose this is what I'd have at my funeral.

Speaker 34:16

And in the end

Speaker 34:20

I love you, Dave.

Speaker 34:24

Is equal to the love?

Presenter4:46

The Beatles and the End. Take us back then, Paul McKenna, to the early years, to little Paul McKenna, w um what was life like at home in the early days?

Paul McKenna4:54

I grew up in North London. My uh father was a builder, my mother uh teacher. Um I was a nerdy, gimpy kid, I suppose. And I kind I I think I had a good childhood.

Presenter5:05

That's harsh, isn't it? To the spider's side.

Paul McKenna5:07

Well, that's how I felt as a kid. You know, I suppose, you know, I was quite athletic, but that was how I felt about myself.

Presenter5:14

Why?

Paul McKenna5:15

I don't know why actually. It's just you know, like a lot of kids growing up, you know, everyone uh that's that's bigger than you is, you know, smarter or has it more together. You know, it's it's easy then to have a negative self image.

Presenter5:27

But it would have to have been well, I don't need to tell you this, it would have to have been reinforced. I mean, if you were feeling if you had those tendencies to be rather int introspective and self-critical, it somebody must have been reinforcing that.

Paul McKenna5:37

Oh, absolutely, and that would be the Catholic Church. Because I went to a Catholic school and it's very much about making you feel guilty less than somehow if you go to church often enough and good enough to the church, then somehow you can make up for it. And that was really, I suppose, where the negative aspect was reinforced.

Presenter6:00

And your mum and dad were good Catholics. Did they did they reinforce what the church had to say at home?

Paul McKenna6:04

Yes, but equally I you know, I should say that my parents, I think, get a benefit from going to church. I don't like church, I'm not religious, I believe in God. I mean, I know I read frequently I've read in quite a few interviews that I'm an atheist. I absolutely not. But I didn't find that religion worked for me.

Presenter6:20

Were you very unhappy at school, then?

Paul McKenna6:22

Yeah, the the secondary school, absolutely. I thought it was a repressive environment. I don't like authority in many respects. If somebody I think is pushing me, it makes me want to push them back, you know, rather than conform. And there was cruelty. And I think sometimes some of the good things that have come from that is having seen cruelty and repression, it makes you appreciate compassion more.

Presenter6:45

Did your appearance have any sense of your unhappiness?

Paul McKenna6:47

Oh, absolutely, yeah, I'm immunized. And I think when one of the teachers was convicted of sexually assaulting one of um the kids at the school, um, then they began to suspect that actually it wasn't this fantastic place that they you know, that that they thought they were lucky to get me into.

Presenter7:07

Tell me about your next track.

Paul McKenna7:09

Ah, this is Sister Sledge. She's the greatest dancer. What a change of pace. Yes.

Presenter7:12

What a change of pace. Yes.

Paul McKenna7:17

This was about the time, I think it would be about 79, 80, when I was really starting to work as a disc jockey. I used to work in Top Shop as a DJ when I was about 15, playing records, a fantastic job. And I love this. I think it's a great disco record. In fact, the other night I was at dinner with some friends and we were saying when you hear a song back in, say, the 70s, the first time you heard it, it sounded absolutely fantastic and it will never sound like that again. And I was thinking about this later and I thought, you know, I do age regression sometimes when I'm working with a client.

Paul McKenna7:55

I take them back to a time in their childhood and they can remember it like they're really back there again. And I thought, I wonder if I can do that. So I age regressed myself. I know this sounds a little unusual. Took myself back and then whacked on Sister Sledge on the iPod. He's the greatest dancer. And it just sounded phenomenal. It sounded like it did years ago. It sounded as fresh and as when those amazing big disco drums kicked in and the funky guitar started playing, it just sounded fantastic.

Speaker 38:26

Had the kind of body that would shame Adonis And a face that would make any man proud

Speaker 38:35

Oh what's wow?

Speaker 38:37

He's the greatest dancer of what the world says.

Speaker 38:46

He's the greatest dancer

Presenter8:50

Sister Sledge, and he's the greatest dancer. And memories there, Paul McKenna, of your first job. It was a part-time job. You were in Top Shop, and you were the DJ.

Paul McKenna8:58

I know, it's fantastic. How cool was that? Oh, it's brilliant. My friends are stacking shelves of supermarket and I'm playing records in a store surrounded by beautiful women and being paid to do it. I thought this is fun. This is not like real work. This is so much fun. So I thought maybe this is what I should do.

Presenter8:59

How cool was that?

Presenter9:13

That's in sharp contrast, though, to th the man who just a few moments ago described himself as a young boy as a gimp and a geek. I mean wh where did you get the confidence to think that you could sit in front of a microphone?

Paul McKenna9:24

Well, the nice thing is with radio is there's not that many people looking at you. In fact, there is that saying, you know, has a perfect face for radio. And so many DJs, you know, have a fantastic voice and when you meet them, they don't look exactly as you'd imagine.

Presenter9:39

So you you've got a job then at Capitol Radio?

Paul McKenna9:41

Eventually, my first proper job in radio was Radio Caroline.

Presenter9:45

Right. So was Radio Caroline then a happy time?

Paul McKenna9:48

Oh, absolutely. It was one of the best real-life adventures I ever had. I was a great big Icelandic trawler. We'd sneak out on a fishing boat, and I can't tell you how exciting I found the whole thing. I was 20 years old. It was a bunch of blokes, and we had a lot of fun. We used to muck up. I remember one night, we were all up to about 4 in the morning, having a water fight, throwing buckets of water over each other, running around the superstructure of the ship. And I really, really enjoyed it.

Presenter10:13

And were you doing things like were you doing all your own cooking, your own washing, making the bed? I mean, you presumably had to make this thing take over.

Paul McKenna10:19

Yes, well we'd share certain duties, but there were some people that would do those kind of things. And I think there was something about being on a ship, the romance of that, and also Ronan O'Reilly, who started Radio Caroline, encouraged us to talk about nice things and send out, he called it loving awareness, which I know we sound like some big hippie now, but to send out a sort of a peaceful, happy message and to play what you wanted and to have that freedom and to look out of the porthole and see this extraordinary view of the North Sea was amazing. And you just couldn't help but convey that to the listeners. So what about

Presenter10:58

But

Paul McKenna10:58

Uh

Presenter10:58

Track three then, is it gonna send out loving awareness? What have what have you chosen?

Paul McKenna11:00

Uh this is Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven. Um um you know uh very cliche choice, but it's still just one of the best records ever made and I believe at one stage was the most requested record in the world on the radio.

Speaker 311:18

I'm a robot.

Speaker 311:22

I shall stone the lights.

Speaker 311:26

Mary Waltz the lady we all know

Speaker 311:31

Who shines my life at once and share?

Speaker 311:36

I'll never advance the first

Speaker 311:41

If you listen, Mary

Presenter11:44

Lead Zeppelin and Stairway to Heaven

Presenter11:47

So Paul, what age would you have been the first time you were hypnotized?

Paul McKenna11:49

In my early twenties, I suppose. But my first experience with it was that I was a radio broadcaster and I was interested in yoga and meditation. I went one day to interview the local hypnotist, and I'd had a particularly bad day. I'd split up with my girlfriend. The people in the apartment where I was living were making noise. I had a row with my boss at work. And so I arrived at this interview fairly stressed. And I said, Do your weirdy mind thing on me. And I sat back. I was quite sceptical, you know, but benevolently so. I said, Come on, let the process begin.

Presenter12:19

So you had walked out of this first little informal session of hypnotism and felt immediately better, felt transformed?

Paul McKenna12:27

Transformed? Fantastic, but also intrigued. And I borrowed a book from this guy by Richard Bandler, who was later to become my mentor in this area. And I went home and read it, and then I began to hypnotize my friends to help them quit smoking, or lose weight, or overcome phobias. And it pretty much worked.

Presenter12:46

You said earlier that you hated the idea of being controlled, but of course the obvious equation here is that you like controlling.

Paul McKenna12:52

Absolutely, that that's right, that's what it's all about. You know, at times I fell out of control, so I've compensated for it ever since. And now I do this job where I get to control lots of people around me. You're absolutely right.

Presenter13:03

Right. I mean, w it it would be easy to draw a line between this and how bad you'd been made to feel at school and the the idea that you were inadequate, that you were guilty, that that thoughts that you had, the actions that you did were nothing but bad and wrong. Were you trying to repair that?

Paul McKenna13:09

Yeah.

Paul McKenna13:17

Yes, I think so. I think part of it was this inner lack of self worth. But also it's a search for there must be something more to it than this. You know, who am I? All that sort of stuff were things I would think about.

Presenter13:28

And you had moved on to to work at uh Capitol Radio. Yes. And so, were these two things? You were doing the hypnotism, but it was, I was going to say a sideshow. I don't mean it in that way, but in a sense, it was what you did in your spare time. You had a real job.

Paul McKenna13:39

Well actually had two jobs. Yes. You're absolutely right. The radio was my main job. I would be DJ by day, hypnotist by night. And so I had these two careers that were running in parallel.

Presenter13:51

Was it clear to you which one you preferred?

Paul McKenna13:53

Well, there was a moment when it was. I was walking down Tottenham Court Road one day, and suddenly I realized, I thought, hang on, we own a theatre, Capitol Radio owned a theatre in those days. So I went to see Richard Park, who you may well know from the Fame Academy, but he was the programme director at Capital Radio at the time, as my boss. And I fully expect him to say, you must be joking. And he sat back and he went.

Paul McKenna14:18

Okay, Paulie, we'll back you. It was like a destiny moment for me. And to me, all success in life comes down to people saying, I'll back you. That's what it is.

Presenter14:27

There is so much in there that I want to ask you about, and I will ask you about before I do, though. Tell me about your next record.

Paul McKenna14:33

This record by Banderis, This Is Your Life, reminds me of that time at Capitol Radio, walking down Tottenham Court Road, that time when see, I believe we have moments where

Paul McKenna14:45

We can make a choice, a sort of a junction, a destiny moment, if you like. And I could have stayed as a DJ quite happily, and I think, you know, done well as a DJ. But there's a saying: risk is the currency of the gods, and I've got creative in my thinking, took a risk, and my life is better as a result. And the words in this song, I think, are pertinent to that as well.

Speaker 315:07

This is not the place of the TV show you've seen for sales feel.

Speaker 315:16

Bye, this is your

Speaker 315:19

This is your five

Speaker 315:26

This is your love, this is your life.

Presenter15:33

The Banderas and This Is Your Life. And memories there for you, Paul McKenna, of that key moment, that moment where you could have chosen one path or another. And I was thinking as you said that about the sort of David Brent aspect of it, isn't it? That, you know, I am in control of my life, I make my own success, and if I think hard enough, I'll get it. I mean, you know, it can turn people into rather unfortunate creatures.

Speaker 215:44

But isn't it the

Paul McKenna15:48

My thing

Speaker 215:49

Yeah.

Paul McKenna15:50

You know it's

Paul McKenna15:52

No.

Paul McKenna15:54

Yes, what you're describing there is an unfortunate sort of side of the self-improvement.

Paul McKenna16:02

community, if you like. It's something that I think puts a lot of people off reading a self improvement book. But I I don't s think there's anything wrong with wanting to better yourself, but not in that sort of cheesy evangelistical sense that we see so many American motivational speakers are speaking.

Presenter16:20

Of course, you are a brilliant example of what it is you preach, because it did start to happen for you. As you say, you you very quickly started these successful stage shows. You took out a loan from the bank and the cash started rolling in.

Paul McKenna16:32

Yeah.

Presenter16:32

Yeah. Then you ended up on T V. It was it was mainstream Saturday night bankable entertainment.

Paul McKenna16:34

It was m

Paul McKenna16:38

Yes, that's right. We tried to make a very sexy light entertainment program. And I think of its time, in its day it it really stood up. I mean, I'm not sure we would do that now, but but you know, the style of it was of its time.

Presenter16:53

Does it make you blush now?

Paul McKenna16:54

No, well actually it was ni it was nice to look and see how much hair I had. And in fact one of them was on television, on satellite T V the other day and I was sitting there looking at it thinking.

Paul McKenna17:03

That that's me, but that's not me any more.

Presenter17:07

And then in 1997, there was a man who said that you've turned him into a schizophrenic. What was your reaction?

Paul McKenna17:08

Thank you.

Paul McKenna17:10

Yeah.

Paul McKenna17:12

I was shocked. You're right. This this gentleman does have schizophrenia, which is a biological brain disorder. And the whole incident you're referring to resulted in the High Court case.

Presenter17:25

'Cause he wanted to sue you for damage.

Paul McKenna17:26

He did, he sued me. The court case, I think, was perhaps the last witch trial that we had in this country. They had found a psychiatrist who said that I cast spells on people. And yet, if I'd lost it, I would have been finished. I would have been bankrupted. The whole implication was that I cynically made money for making fools out of people, this sort of thing.

Presenter17:49

How were you personally fearing?

Paul McKenna17:51

Badly. I woke up one day to see my face on the front page of one of the tabloid newspapers and the headline Harmless or Deadly. Even now, thinking about it, God, it was tough. It was a very tough time. Because this was not about the commercial ramifications. This was about the fundamental essence of my character.

Presenter18:11

You won the court case when you walked down the steps of the High Court. Tell me the the sensations that flooded through you.

Paul McKenna18:12

Yeah.

Paul McKenna18:17

God, it was a massive relief. And I'm a professional broadcaster, but my hand was shaking. And I looked at a picture of this the other day. I saw it and I was gaunt. I could see I looked, you know, really quite stressed. It had aged me. It was a very tough experience. And yet, it was a big relief.

Presenter18:37

We'll take a break for some music.

Paul McKenna18:40

This next track is Space Cowboy by Jamiroquai. And I think, you know, following this court case, I, you know, had an opportunity to let off some steam and to really enjoy myself. And this song was playing in all the clubs, so you know, it reminds me of a time of sort of of euphoria, really.

Speaker 319:02

Oh, I'm here again.

Speaker 319:04

I went the sun shines high upon my fans, my friends

Speaker 319:08

A classic hair

Speaker 319:10

In all my head I'm in They've disappeared without a chance I'm bad

Speaker 319:17

Found somebody who I can remember. The da-da-da-da-da. I thought.

Presenter19:26

Jimmy Raquayan, Space Cowboy, you've spoken uh more than hinted earlier uh about uh the person that you were ten years ago not being quite as recognizable as as the person I'm talking to today. I mean you you are improving yourself as you see it all the time. You are working on yourself.

Speaker 219:33

Yeah.

Paul McKenna19:41

Have

Paul McKenna19:43

Yes, absolutely.

Presenter19:43

Absolutely. And it has worked. I mean, do you feel contentment? You feel happiness? You feel not just a sense of achievement, but a sense of peace?

Paul McKenna19:47

Oh yeah.

Paul McKenna19:50

Yes, I feel happier today than I think I've ever felt. And yet, at the same time, you know, I still have problems, challenges. You know, that's how we learn and grow, I think. Describe to me how.

Presenter20:01

How you did it?

Paul McKenna20:01

What was the process? What I did was went back to times in my life when I'd felt challenged and.

Paul McKenna20:10

I would stop them still and so this is.

Presenter20:14

So this is imagining it as a sort of image, as a piece of filter.

Paul McKenna20:16

Yes, that's right. So you make a TV screen, you see a still image in black and white of a traumatic time, and you stop the world still, you float over into the screen, you tell the younger you that he's going to survive this time, that you're from the future, you've come to tell him everything's alright, he's totally good enough, you love and approve of him just the way he is, and that he's always good enough, his self-worth is the same today as it was the day he was born and will be the day he dies, that sort of stuff.

Presenter20:41

That sort of stuff. That made you feel good. That worked. That was enough.

Paul McKenna20:44

That was enough. Absolutely, yeah.

Presenter20:45

I mean, wha why didn't you choose traditional thera I mean, psychotherapy or or analysis?

Paul McKenna20:50

I'm not a fan of traditional psychoanalysis. Getting somebody to go back and remember in vivid technicolour rather than in a disassociated way, the way I was just describing it, all of the worst things that have ever happened to them. To me, it's like taking somebody with a broken leg and throwing them down the stairs until they feel better. I mean, I'll give an example. I was at a function a couple of years ago, and this lady came up to me. She's a Freudian analyst, right? And we had a chat for a while.

Paul McKenna21:21

And I said, Look, why don't we do this? Tomorrow we'll find a phobic and we'll see which one of us can cure the phobic. And she went, Oh, no, no, no.

Paul McKenna21:32

We're not interested in curing phobics in analysis, I went. Oh, well, what's the point of it? she went. Helping them understand why they're phobic.

Paul McKenna21:40

And I said, What's the point in that? If my car breaks down, I take it to the garage. I don't really care what was wrong with it. I just want it fixed. You know, if the garage say, Ah, we can't fix it, but we can tell you why it's broken, sir, that will not really wash with me.

Presenter21:55

Bah

Presenter21:56

We're not cars, are we? We're far more complex than that, and we have an emotional makeup that is that needs to be treated as complexly and as tenderly as it requires. It's not simply a case of right, let's fix it, the job's done.

Paul McKenna22:00

And we

Paul McKenna22:13

Oh, well, yes, it is, as far as I'm concerned. I see human beings very mechanically, and yet they're mysterious and wonderful and complex, but ultimately it's mechanics. Human beings, very much like a computer, we have programs that we learn as a kid, like how to open a door, brush our teeth, tie our shoelaces. We practice those things until they become habits or programs, if you like, and they run automatically. And some of the programs that we have support us, some of them are functional, some of them don't, some of them are dysfunctional. And what I do is help people to reprogram themselves like a computer programmer.

Presenter22:48

You claim huge success for your techniques. I mean, how do you possibly monitor? You're shifting tens of thousands of books. How do you monitor the success?

Paul McKenna22:56

Well, we do studies. For example, I'm very proud of the weight loss system that I've developed over it. It's taken me about 15 years to get it to this stage now, and it doesn't work for everyone. I want to say that I don't know any technique that does work for everyone every single time, any drug that does, but it works for most people most of the time. And so that will do for me.

Presenter23:16

It remains the case though that that some members of the scientific community are are very sceptical about what you do. And there are other people who say, Well actually, what you're selling in these books is is nothing more than common sense. You know, you well, yes, of course, I'm going to eat only when I'm hungry. I'm going to stop when I'm full. These are things that people know anyway. Why why do they need you to tell them?

Paul McKenna23:31

Going to s

Paul McKenna23:36

Well, the scientific community should be skeptical, because that's how we test whether something works or not. As to common sense, I'm always secretly glad when people say that, because a great deal of work goes into taking very complicated psychological theories and techniques and making them so simple that they sound like common sense. And so that's a real compliment.

Presenter24:01

What's the next record?

Paul McKenna24:02

The next piece uh of music is by Leffield Space Shanty. I like music of repetitive beats and uh not everyone understands uh this kind of music.

Presenter24:13

Are you making an excuse before we even hear it?

Paul McKenna24:14

Do we even hear it? Well, it's going to sound like a racket, especially on Radio four. But I when I when I work out, it gives me that extra lift of motivation. This is definitely a reflection of who I am.

Presenter24:56

Left field and space shanty. I mean it's the sales of these books and it's this work that has led you I mean you were named in the Times no less, along with people like who was it? Was it Nelson Mandela and uh the Dalai Lama is being one of the ten great modern gurus of our times.

Paul McKenna25:13

You don't

Paul McKenna25:15

Well, I was very flattered to read that, I have to say. But yeah, I don't like the guru tag because it's got so much baggage, you know, it's just so many negative connotations. And also the gurus always seem to get into trouble at some stage.

Presenter25:29

Um, you say you haven't written a a book yet on relationships. I mean, you said rather humorously you'll do it once you manage to to actually make a success of one. But you did write a book called How to Mend Your Broken Heart. Wha why did you write that?

Paul McKenna25:41

Well, I'd had my heart broken several times and you know and basically it came comes down to this. You know, I'd invested in a future. I'd s assumed, made the assumption that I was going to be with this person forevermore, and when suddenly it was cancelled, you know, so was my future, and so I'd feel immense upset.

Presenter25:59

You didn't read the signs? I mean you're very good at reading signs, that's what you do.

Paul McKenna26:02

Well, but you know, I don't know anyone who has all the answers. And particularly, this is the whole thing about being in love is, you know, you look at that person through rose-tinted spectacles.

Presenter26:11

Uh you're very well known for uh dating conventionally glamorous women, you know, leggy blondes with pneumatic figures who who make wonderful pictures in in in the tabloids with you. Um if you're a guru

Paul McKenna26:19

Yeah.

Speaker 226:21

Yeah.

Presenter26:26

You're meant to sort of think beyond that, aren't you? You're meant to think beyond the surface, and you're meant to understand and appreciate the deeper, maybe more low-key significance things in life. You seem to like.

Paul McKenna26:37

The material

Presenter26:38

The the the the obvious.

Paul McKenna26:40

Yes, I'm very shallow. There's that side of me that likes uh glamour, that likes um the obvious, if you like. Uh I admit it and I embrace it. I like James Bond, uh I like cop shows, you know. I never read any novels, you know. I as a part of me I like fast cars, you know. I'm part of me is still a twelve year old boy.

Presenter26:58

You have a lot of fast guys.

Paul McKenna27:00

I have several cars here.

Presenter27:01

What do you what do you have?

Paul McKenna27:03

I have a a Bentley, a Ferrari, a a Mercedes-G Wagon and a Range Rover.

Presenter27:11

Tell me about your next piece of music.

Paul McKenna27:13

That sounds terrible, doesn't it?

Presenter27:14

Not my fault.

Paul McKenna27:15

Uh

Presenter27:15

You

Paul McKenna27:15

You got the mate?

Presenter27:16

Or the mate?

Paul McKenna27:18

The next piece of music, well you see, this relates very well to what we were talking about just before we got onto the cars. So this next piece of music is by Everything But the Girl. It's called I Didn't Know That I Was Looking for Love, but I Found It. And there's a lyric in this song that I really I like the song, but there's a lyric I think is pretty good, which is

Paul McKenna27:42

And now you're here, there's a full brass band Playing in me like a wonderland. And if you left I would be two foot tall, And every tear would be a waterfall. And I always thought if I if I ever got married I'd this would be a song I'd like to have played at my wedding, and it's a beautiful song.

Speaker 227:59

I was alone thinking I was just fine I wasn't looking for anyone to be mine I thought love was just a fabrication A train that wouldn't stop at my station Home, alone, that was my consignment Solitary confinement So when we met I was skirting around you I didn't know I was looking for love until I found you

Presenter28:28

Everything but the girl and I didn't know I was looking for love. Some of your work, uh, Paul, i is quite controversial. I mean, you treat what would be considered very extreme cases in some circumstances.

Paul McKenna28:39

Well, eventually I you know, after working with people in the areas you would expect a hypnotist to work in, you know, helping people lose weight, quit smoking, overcome phobias, I started working with people who were inverted commas incurable just to see what was possible and have had some success there.

Presenter28:57

Like what?

Paul McKenna28:58

Well, I think my favorite of all of these cases, the man called Ray Mash, who was hit on the head at building sites. And as a result of this, he went blind. Now the doctors at the time

Paul McKenna29:13

Believed that he had hysterical blindness, which is like a post-traumatic stress response. I mean, he hadn't seen anything for eight years when I met him. And I'd never done a case of hysterical blindness, but I'd always wanted to. And I began working with him. We didn't really get very far at first. And then suddenly, we had the most phenomenal moment. You know, when I think about it now, it just is overwhelming when suddenly, after eight years, he could see his wife's face one day. And it was one of the most beautiful moments I've had as a therapist. And we then had another evaluation, and it's now believed that he did have neurological damage.

Paul McKenna29:59

The thing is, we don't really know what took place there. And he can't see as well as he used to, but he can see things. He can see his granddaughter's face, he see his wife's face. He sees things in black and white, get flashes of color. But it's more the change in him that's so uplifting. So that's my favorite incurable case.

Presenter30:18

I mean, that is a remarkable story, and I've no reason to think that it is not the case, as you've just described it to me. But there will be many people.

Paul McKenna30:24

Jimmy

Speaker 230:25

The

Presenter30:27

listening who think that these are these are dangerous words to promise, to say to people, where there is no hope, I can bring hope, and that that is a a dangerous thing to promise.

Paul McKenna30:35

I'm saying yes, there is always hope, but I'm not saying that I'm going to work miracles or anything like that. You're absolutely right. There's a duty to be responsible with this and not give people false hope. And I hope that I'm not doing that. But at the same time, let's not forget, nothing was curable once upon a time, and look how much we can cure now.

Presenter30:58

Tell me about your final piece of music.

Paul McKenna31:00

This is Primal Scream and moving on up and I've always liked this song and I found it very uplifting. The opening lyrics are I Was Blind and I Can See. Even when I hear it now, you know, it reminds me of this story and I am in the hope business because I don't know what is and what isn't possible, but I'm prepared to get stuck in and find out.

Speaker 331:24

I was blind.

Speaker 331:26

Now I can see.

Speaker 331:29

You better believe us.

Speaker 331:32

I don't know.

Speaker 331:34

I was blind.

Speaker 331:36

Now I can see you made a believer.

Speaker 331:42

Man, I'm moving all up the town.

Speaker 331:48

Getting out of the top now!

Presenter31:52

Primal scream and moving on up. So we come to the part then, Paul, where I give you the Bible for this island. I give you the complete works of Shakespeare, and you have to take one other book. What will it be?

Paul McKenna32:03

I discovered something last year, a process called Big Mind. It's created by a guy called Dennis Mazzell. He's a really eminent Western Zen master. And the book is called The Path of the Human Being. Your consciousness expands and you become at one with everything. You are part of the eternal is, if you like. It's the only way I can describe it. And this technique has significantly changed my life for the better. So I'm going to take that book with me. It's phenomenal.

Presenter32:38

Well, given that book and the resulting technique, I don't know if you need a luxury, but we do give you one anyway. What would you like to take as your luxury?

Paul McKenna32:44

Yeah.

Paul McKenna32:45

I'd take um a picture. Am I allowed to make like a collage of pictures and stick them into one frame? Yes. Okay, I'd ta it would be family, friends, my girlfriend, um, and I I would take that with me.

Presenter32:50

Yes.

Presenter32:57

And if I was to force you to choose just one of those eight records to save, which one would it be?

Paul McKenna33:04

To save, isn't it? Yes. Let's have Primal Scream moving on up, because it's so positive.

Presenter33:10

Paul McKenna, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Paul McKenna33:13

It's been a plan.

Presenter33:14

Sure, thank you.

Paul McKenna33:14

Yeah.

Presenter33:21

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.