Greg Dyke

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Presenter0:08

The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and seven.

Presenter0:28

My castaway this week is Greg Dyke, a top flight T V executive known for being instinctual, populist, and balshy, his appointment as BBC Director General at the end of the nineties was an uncharacteristically bold move for the corporation, and an extraordinary moment for a man who as a youngster was once marked out by his teachers as the boy least likely to succeed.

Presenter0:49

However, his departure four years later was a great deal more spectacular. The passion and impulsiveness that served him so well at LWT and T V A M proved his undoing at the B B C, when a bitter row erupted with Downing Street over the corporation's coverage of the Iraq War.

Presenter1:05

Amid considerable mudslinging, ill temper, and tragedy, he was forced to resign, prompting a huge display of loyalty from his staff, as thousands gathered on the steps of the corporation to wish him a tearful goodbye.

Presenter1:19

One of them asked you memorably, Craig Dyke, how did a short, bold man with a speech impediment have such an impact? What do you think the short answer is to that?

Greg Dyke1:28

Well, we spent in the four years I was at the BBC we had one aim and that was to make the people who worked here feel valued.

Greg Dyke1:35

If you can make them feel valued, then you can do great things in an organisation. And I think we achieved that. I think people felt there would be a significant difference in that time.

Presenter1:46

It was Thursday, the twenty ninth of january, two thousand four. I'm sure you remember it well. That was the day that you handed in your resignation. Only one day before you had had the opportunity to see Lord Hutton's report for the first time. Just to remind people, that was the inquiry that the government had set up into the death of the scientist David Kelly. Do you remember what your feelings were when you read that report for the first time?

Greg Dyke2:05

I sat in one room and read it. My head and deputy head of news were in the next room reading it. I walked into their room and I said, Listen, we've been I won't use the exact word I used.

Greg Dyke2:16

But we all agreed.

Greg Dyke2:18

It was so one sided.

Greg Dyke2:20

that it wouldn't sustain and that if we could see through the next few days the public would be on our side.

Presenter2:27

The chairman at the time of the BBC, Gavin Davis, had said that when he read it he knew one thing, and that was that somebody was going to have to resign. Did the same thing occur to you? Did it occur to you that you may have to resign?

Greg Dyke2:38

No, I never thought I was going to I really didn't resign. I was forced out by the governors. But I never thought I would have to resign, no. Nor did I think Gavin should have resigned either. I thought uh and I think to this day that that we were right.

Presenter2:54

Remarkably that evening you decided to go out to dinner. Did you have much of an appetite at all?

Greg Dyke3:00

Well, that was the following day, the day I yes, the the day I left.

Greg Dyke3:04

Sue, my partner had been away, uh, came back as soon as she found out that I was going, and she and Jo and I went and sat in a restaurant, and actually it was quite a funny evening, really. We laughed quite a lot. Were there any tears?

Greg Dyke3:19

No, it was a very strange day, and and what made it such a strange day was, of course, the morning I was leaving.

Greg Dyke3:27

And in the afternoon the star falled down all over the country. And they turned what was a horrible day into something that was quite

Greg Dyke3:35

memorable really. I mean, you know, I'd have gone anyway in a couple of years, you know, I'd have got all the sort of rather usual boring retirement parties and the rest of it. Instead I left with the staff on the streets and that was that was quite gratifying.

Presenter3:41

What

Speaker 23:41

Yeah.

Presenter3:48

We'll talk in great detail about the BBC, also about Hutton, in a little while. Before we do that, though, tell me about your first piece of music.

Greg Dyke3:56

One of my brothers said to me, Look, Greg, I hope you're not going to embarrass the family and play eight Bruce Springsteen songs. So I promised him I wouldn't, but I thought as the first one I would play, I think the ultimate Bruce Springsteen song, which is Born to Run.

Speaker 34:13

Cages on highway nine four wheel human checkers stepping out over the line

Speaker 34:21

Oh, baby, this town rips the bones from your back. It's a death trap. It's a suicide rap. We gotta get up while we're young.

Speaker 34:31

Cause trades like us may live through

Presenter4:39

Bruce Springsteen then Born to Run. In your autobiography, Gregg, you write about grabbing life's opportunities. You are one of life's grabbers. It seems to me you sort of run at life and and and take on what it's got to give.

Greg Dyke4:51

I think that's right. I think, um, you know, you look at your own life, you look at what the opportunities that come to you and you either take them or you don't.

Greg Dyke4:59

You've got to have the confidence, really, in life to just grab what you what you can and do the things you want to do.

Presenter5:05

And it does take a huge amount of confidence. I'm wondering where that confidence began.

Greg Dyke5:10

Well, it's interesting. Once one of my former colleagues at London Weekend Television once said to me, Look, the only reason that you've been successful is that you don't have enough imagination to imagine failure.

Greg Dyke5:20

Which I thought there might be some truth in that. Um I don't know where it came from. Um I came from a sort of fairly ordinary background in in West London, so it was a suburban background. We owned our own house, we had a car. When I was a very young kid, we were the only people in the street with a telephone'cause my dad was an insurance salesman. So it was a very um

Greg Dyke5:41

Secure background.

Presenter5:42

To what sort of people were mum and dad?

Greg Dyke5:45

My mother's family were Dockers, my father's family were publicans. They they met, I think, in church.

Greg Dyke5:53

Married, had three sons, and their life was about bringing up those kids.

Presenter5:57

Was a sort of modest, proper, straightforward upbringing that you had? What what ambitions did they have for for you and your siblings?

Greg Dyke6:05

They certainly brought us up with a set of values. I mean, my dad was one of the few people you'd meet who would go out and talk to the road sweeper because his belief in life was that everybody's got values. So we we were brought up with values. I think we were brought up with humor.

Greg Dyke6:20

Uh we were brought up quite competitive. Not academically,'cause we w none of us were academic stars. But I mean, um, winning at football for my father was much more important than whether you passed your exams.

Presenter6:31

Did you have an ambition bubbling under then at any point when you were a young boy?

Greg Dyke6:36

Yes, I always I didn't want to be ordinary.

Greg Dyke6:40

I made up my mind very early on in my life I was not going to be like everybody else. And that did mean getting out of suburban London. It did mean um

Greg Dyke6:50

Trying to do different things.

Presenter6:51

It sounded from what you said that you had a a a a strong sense, maybe not clearly identified in your mind's eye as a child and a teenager, but a strong sense that you didn't want what your parents had.

Greg Dyke7:03

Now I was always determined.

Greg Dyke7:05

to do more. Um I'd not done well at school, but that didn't stop me at all. I I just once I once I got into journalism, which is what I went into when I was quite young, I just loved it and I just relished at doing different things and new things.

Greg Dyke7:22

I just wanted to do more, just rail against everything, take on everything.

Presenter7:28

Tell me about your second trip.

Greg Dyke7:30

Um

Greg Dyke7:31

Well, my second track goes right back to my childhood.

Greg Dyke7:34

In our house, Buddy Holly was a big factor. I have a one brother six years older, and he was a big Buddy Holly fan, and therefore we were all Buddy Holly fans. The the Buddy Holly song I've chosen is It Doesn't Matter Any More, which of course was came out roughly the same time as as Buddy Holly died, and of course with his death went straight to number one.

Speaker 37:55

Sick of trying, I've thrown away my nights and wasted all my days over you Well you go your way and I'll go mine Now and forever till the end of time I'll find somebody new Baby, we'll say we're through And you won't matter anymore

Presenter8:25

Buddy Holly and it doesn't matter anymore. Sorry, Greg Dyke, you found yourself you found yourself a job at the Hillingdon Mirror. It was your first uh job in journalism. How did you know that that was what you wanted?

Greg Dyke8:36

I didn't. I was just looking for something that would be interesting and and that might be a bit different and I thought might be a bit sexy really. So I wandered into this newspaper office one day and the office was a tip and I thought this is me. I feel at home here.

Presenter8:51

And from the moment you started learning how to be a journalist, you knew that the glove fitted. You thought, yep, this is me, this is where I belong, these are the people I like.

Greg Dyke8:59

I was nineteen. What I wanted was responsibility. And the great thing about being a young journalist is that you get given all sorts of responsibility, you know, and I love that.

Presenter9:08

But you d in the end it did have its limitations and and you knew that you would you were starting to get restless again. I mean you went to York University and and took uh degrees in politics.

Greg Dyke9:18

Politics. I did that when I was twenty-four. In those days, if you hadn't gone to university, you somehow.

Greg Dyke9:26

Felt that somehow you were inferior.

Greg Dyke9:29

And I knew that I hadn't done well at school.

Greg Dyke9:32

So I just applied one day to go to university and got offered a place at York.

Greg Dyke9:37

And, you know, I had one Grade E A level, you know. I mean, they tell me at York today I I wouldn't have got I wouldn't get in today. But in those days y you could go if you'd had a a different sort of background, and I'd had, you know, five years working in newspapers, uh that they would take you. And it was a very rewarding experience for me.

Presenter9:56

Yes, I'm interested in that because given that you were twenty four, a good deal older than a lot of the students you were mixing with, did you feel that it properly did educate you, or was it simply an experience, a life experience that was worth having?

Greg Dyke10:09

I I think it was the former really. But I did work pretty hard. I mean, you know, if you go when you're twenty-four, you don't mess around like most students. And I remember I used to sit around with s with some of my friends and they used to be sitting there moaning and I'd say, Don't moan. This is the great life compared to g getting up at eight, seven, eight o'clock every day, going to work, doing eight hours, coming home. It doesn't get better than this. Tell me about your next record.

Greg Dyke10:34

Well, when I came to draw up this issue I found it incredibly difficult. I thought you cannot be a kid of the sixties as I was without either having the Beatles or the Rolling Stones.

Greg Dyke10:44

I thought about it for a long time and I thought, look, w what's my favourite Beatles song? And I thought, Strawberry Fields.

Speaker 310:51

Let me take you down, cause I'm going to strawberry field.

Speaker 311:03

Nothing is real.

Speaker 311:06

Nothing to get hung about.

Speaker 311:10

Strawberry feels forever

Presenter11:18

The Beatles and Strawberry Fields forever. You had your degree in politics, then, Greg Dyke, and you were attracted in the seventies then to a life in politics. You turned, I understand, a Labour majority of four thousand into a Conservative one of seven thousand. It wasn't altogether successful.

Greg Dyke11:33

No, it was my one and only attempt at politics, and I stood as the GLC candidate in Putney in the late seventies, seventy seven.

Greg Dyke11:43

It was a very strange time. I mean, it was the time when the Jim Callahan government was incredibly unpopular and we got annihilated. Um and actually for me I'm quite glad we lost because, you know, my life went into another direction after that was if I'd gone if we won in seventy seven I'd have probably ended up as a Labour MP and all those sorts of things.

Speaker 211:53

Yeah.

Presenter11:53

Mm-hmm.

Presenter12:02

You say that with a sense of complete dread in your voice. I mean, very recently, of course, you have been mentioned as a possible mayoral candidate for London, standing against Ken Livingston. Has that been completely shelved, that idea? Or are you still at least mulling it over?

Greg Dyke12:18

Well, it was a strange experience because the idea was I would stand as an independent, but the the Conservatives and the Liberals.

Greg Dyke12:24

Would not stand against and would support me.

Greg Dyke12:29

So I thought it would be quite interesting late in life, you know, at the age of pushing sixty, that I actually had something more to offer.

Greg Dyke12:36

But I don't think it'll happen now.

Presenter12:38

But you gave me a beautiful politician's answer there. I mean, you said I don't think it'll happen, but you haven't counted it out. Uh

Greg Dyke12:42

Well, I would only do it if we could get the support of both political parties.

Presenter12:46

And the Tories gave you their support and the Lib Dems didn't.

Greg Dyke12:47

That looked like

Greg Dyke12:48

David Cameron was prepared to push it through. It was quite interesting that he was prepared to do that. The Liberals, I think, got taken by surprise, and unfortunately the story leaked.

Greg Dyke12:58

At the very moment when it was quite delicate, and I think at that moment the Liberals just backed away.

Greg Dyke13:04

I did quite fancy it, but I don't think it'll happen, so and I wouldn't do it just to stand as an independent, because I don't think you'd win, and I'm too old to spend a year of my life campaigning and not winning.

Presenter13:14

Let's rewind then to this little political foray that you had, where you got a bit of a bloody nose and you realized that politics actually wasn't for you, that indeed, as you've described it, it seemed a bit of a lucky escape. You were around about thirty at this point, you were married, you were unemployed. I mean, you you couldn't have felt very optimistic about what life had to offer at that particular stage.

Greg Dyke13:34

Yes, I I think that was the case. I remember thinking, whatever happened to me. I was g I thought I was going to be do something, and achieve something. Here was I, thirty, unemployed.

Greg Dyke13:44

Not knowing what to do with the rest of my life.

Greg Dyke13:46

And then

Greg Dyke13:47

Out of the blue I got a job in uh television.

Presenter13:51

Let's take a break right here. We'll talk about that in a moment. What's your next record?

Greg Dyke13:55

Uh one of the artists that I've always loved is Bob Dylan.

Greg Dyke13:59

I first saw him, I think, in'64 at the Albert Hall, and I've seen him on most tours since. So I had to have a Bob Dylan song.

Greg Dyke14:08

I decided the song I would choose would be

Greg Dyke14:10

Like a Rolling Stone, which was the turning point, I think, in folk rock.

Speaker 314:16

How does it feel?

Speaker 314:21

To be without hope

Speaker 314:26

Like a complete unknown.

Speaker 314:31

Like a rolling stone

Speaker 314:37

Uh

Presenter14:42

Bob Dylan and Laika Rolling Stone. You joined LWT then, Greg Dyke, as a researcher. You were thirty. This was about the same time as it happened that that your marriage was breaking down. It wasn't a shoo-in that you got the job, because somebody said

Presenter14:58

Uh on your interview notes, I understand, are a bit of a pain in the arse. Was she right? I mean, are you a bit of a pain in the arse?

Greg Dyke15:05

What she thought was, I was very opinionated, and the actual line said, he'll never see life as we would want him to see it. Well, that's perfectly true. I never would.

Presenter15:14

We'll never break him.

Greg Dyke15:15

We'll never break him.

Presenter15:16

How long did it take you from becoming a junior researcher to being the chief executive of LWT?

Greg Dyke15:21

Oh, six or seven years, something like that.

Presenter15:24

As quick as that.

Greg Dyke15:26

Well, I moved, I left, I went away. I mean, if I had never left, I would never become the chief executive.

Greg Dyke15:31

Oh L W T in the late seventies was brilliant. It was challenging. It was a mixture of n of current affairs and entertainment. And it was a very stimulating place to work.

Presenter15:45

And when LWT finally met its end, you you made a a tidy sum of money that would sort of free you up in the future to do what what you wanted.

Greg Dyke15:54

Yes. We as the management bought five percent of the company with an option to take another ten percent.

Greg Dyke16:00

And uh we invested quite small money and made big money. Suddenly overnight I had, you know, seven million pounds.

Greg Dyke16:08

Very nice. Well, it I mean the interesting thing about employing people who've made lots of money is that they're quite difficult employees because they can always leave.

Greg Dyke16:18

I think what it gave me was the freedom to just say sorry, don't want to do it.

Presenter16:22

You are, of course, also famously the man who put a rat on a sinking ship. You went to TVM. And it when T VM had started it had rather high-minded ideals. We had people like Anna Ford and Peter Jay and David Frost. You brought in little furry puppets and people with flashy jumpers and made it all a rather different proposition. What was the thinking behind that?

Greg Dyke16:45

I'm not sure there was any thinking at all. It never crossed my mind that I I couldn't get it to work. Never crossed my mind that I was going to fail. Um during the half term holiday we noticed that the ratings went up a little bit. That was because of this puppet that was on called Roland Matt. So during the summer holidays we decided to put

Greg Dyke17:05

Roland rat out on the road, and it was a big hit. And we turned around what was a dying company.

Greg Dyke17:13

which was quite an achievement at the time, and it ended up being incredibly profitable.

Greg Dyke17:17

Tell me about your next piece of music.

Greg Dyke17:21

Well next

Greg Dyke17:22

We get into another time in my life when uh

Greg Dyke17:26

My children were born, and uh they were both born at home.

Greg Dyke17:31

And I was very nervous of this. Sue had already, you know, my partner had two kids, who, you know, who were four and three, I think, at that time. But then I remember my first child being born to Alice.

Greg Dyke17:43

I was a bit scared of her being born at home. I thought

Greg Dyke17:46

They're all going to leave me with this baby. What do I do? And I remember sitting on the day she was born.

Greg Dyke17:51

sitting on a rocking chair with his tiny little thing.

Greg Dyke17:55

Trying to sing to her. And I sang to her uh Summertime from Porgy and Bess.

Speaker 318:01

Summertime

Speaker 318:08

And the world is

Speaker 218:17

Uh

Speaker 218:18

Yeah, but

Speaker 218:22

Stay.

Speaker 218:23

Goodbye.

Presenter18:29

Ella Fitzgerald with Louis Armstrong and Summertime and memories there, Greg Dyke, for you of uh singing lullabies to both of your children when they were just tiny in those first uh years.

Presenter18:40

You were, of course, this big industry success story. You'd made your award at LWT, you'd turned around TVM. But in 1999, when there was talk of who would be the next Director General of the BBC, your name was met with a well, a huge snort of derision from some quarters. I don't think it would be too much to say. What was the problem?

Greg Dyke19:04

The the major problem was that I had given money to the Labour Party.

Presenter19:07

Around about fifty thousand quid it was. Over time. Over time.

Greg Dyke19:09

Over time, and

Greg Dyke19:14

The argument that came from William Hague and others was that you can't possibly do that and be unbiased as a journalist. Something that I would argue very strongly is it's just not the case. You know, you can separate one part of your life from the other quite easily.

Presenter19:29

You don't think that people thought, Well, you know, he seems I mean, you weren't really an East End boy, but to some people you could be perceived as an East End boy.

Greg Dyke19:35

Well, I don't s I didn't sound like I went through the English public school system, um but I don't think that I I mean, I'm sure it was an issue with s one or two of the governors uh who were interviewing me, but I don't think it was an issue with the majority, no.

Presenter19:49

It's important to to talk about your successes, one of them being uh I mean, you did reinvigorate the staff and as you has said earlier, people felt a a good deal more optimism and passion and connection with the creativity which is the lifeblood of a broadcasting organization, but also Free View was one of your big ideas and one of your big successes, and this was where essentially you took on Sky and said, Well, what you can do, maybe we can't do better, but we can offer people an alternative.

Greg Dyke20:15

I mean the interesting thing about Fee View is that it was an idea born in the office by about three people and within two months we'd done it.

Greg Dyke20:23

Now the B B C I inherited would never have done that.

Greg Dyke20:26

And it seems to me that what we tried to what I tried to bring to the BBC was that ability to move fast, that ability to do th so we move the news from nine o'clock to ten o'clock at two weeks' notice.

Presenter20:35

I wanted to ask you about that. I mean, to people outside broadcasting, that seems, well, relatively unimportant. But what you did, you were very fleet of foot. You said, well, you if you don't want Use it ten, we do and it and it astonished people at the time.

Greg Dyke20:47

I I don't think I TV would have ever moved News at Turn if they thought there was any chance BBC would take the slot. And it's no coincidence that a couple of years later the BBC overtook ITV as the most pop BBC One overtook ITV as Britain's most popular channel and still is.

Greg Dyke21:01

Yeah.

Presenter21:01

And do you see those things as we've just talked about as the most significant things that you left behind when you left the BBC?

Greg Dyke21:07

I think freeview is significant.

Greg Dyke21:09

People asked me when I w when I came here, what you know, what do you want to be your legacy? You know, legacy is a popular word these days. Um and I said I'd like people to feel happier.

Greg Dyke21:19

when I leave than when I arrive.

Greg Dyke21:22

Because I think organizations work when the staff.

Greg Dyke21:27

Enjoy what they're doing. I think that's the way to make organizations successful.

Presenter21:33

We're slightly ahead of ourselves because we're talking now about your leaving. We need to talk about the manner of your leaving in some detail because it is fascinating. But first, let's take a break for some music. What have you chosen?

Greg Dyke21:43

Sue, my partner, is a is a meatloaf fan.

Greg Dyke21:45

I I'm not a great meatloaf fan, but she is. And you know, when you do the job sort of jobs that I do, you know, you get home fairly late quite often. And I remember quite regularly coming home and these two little kids dancing around the bedroom to meatloaf and bat out of hell.

Speaker 322:05

Down with the money toll

Speaker 322:09

I went to nice.

Speaker 322:17

Be driving.

Speaker 322:20

When the day is dawn and the sun goes down and the moonlight's shining through

Presenter22:31

Meatloaf and that out of hell. So, Greg Dyke, you are, of course, steeped in all the comings and goings of what happened at that time, but it's worth just reminding everyone else. The government had published this first dossier in September 2002. The purpose of that was intended to bring together intelligence information about Saddam Hussein's regime, and it included a claim that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction that could be prepared for use within forty-five minutes. And it was that claim that Andrew Gilligan, the BBC reporter, was questioning. He said that the government probably knew that the forty-five-minute claim was wrong even before they put it in. And it was that assertion that led Alastair Campbell, Blair's spin doctoring chief at the time, to get on your case. What was it he wanted?

Speaker 322:32

Big

Greg Dyke23:19

Alastair Campbell

Greg Dyke23:20

wanted blood, as did others around him.

Greg Dyke23:23

We've always got to remember that Alastair Campbell

Greg Dyke23:26

basically wanted journalists to broadcast and to write what he wanted written, and if they didn't, he quite regularly intimidated them.

Greg Dyke23:35

I did think Campbell.

Greg Dyke23:38

was an obsessive.

Presenter23:39

But the complaint that you had from Alastair Campbell.

Presenter23:43

Did you decide to take it on? I mean, the BBC had a complaints procedure. You could have kicked it in the way.

Greg Dyke23:47

We invited Alistair Campbell to put it through the complaints procedure. He didn't want to. We could have set up an inquiry and kicked it into the long grass, which in retrospect we probably should have done. I'm not sure that would have sufficed at the time.

Presenter24:00

It seems that it got, as a bystander, it seems that it got incredibly personal between you and Downing Street. And by Downing Street here, of course, I mean Alastair Campbell.

Presenter24:10

Was there a sense in which both of your personalities were um two equally matched? These were two big guns, a couple of macho men who really felt that they couldn't walk away, that they had to slug it out with each other.

Greg Dyke24:23

I didn't feel that at the time. What I felt we were doing was having come under a lot of pressure during the Iraq war, which I thought was unfair from the government.

Greg Dyke24:32

I thought we were defending the journalistic integrity of the BBC. Now, of course, what we know today is the story was absolutely right.

Greg Dyke24:41

Did they doctor the intelligence? Yes, there's no doubt about it. It's all in the butler report.

Presenter24:46

Now, of course, as as you said yourself, things went from being

Presenter24:50

ill-tempered and high octane to being dramatically sinister. David Kelly disappeared from home. There were search parties sent out to try and find him, and then his his body was found some miles from home. How did you hear, first of all, that he had gone missing?

Greg Dyke25:07

I was phoned by Richard Sandbrook, the head of news at the BBC, and told it.

Presenter25:12

And then, subsequently, how did you learn of his death?

Greg Dyke25:14

Oh, I think we all guessed he was dead, I think, almost immediately.

Presenter25:18

Did you at any point feel that in some way the B B C had contributed to the pressure that was put on one single individual, a pressure that in the end, for whatever reason, he felt unable to bear?

Greg Dyke25:31

Well, if he'd never met Andrew Gilligan in the Charing Cross Hotel, he would be here to day, so we all must bear some of the responsibility.

Greg Dyke25:39

But he.

Greg Dyke25:41

quite regularly briefed journalists, so he knew exactly what he was doing. I think the pressure that was then put on him

Greg Dyke25:48

by a whole range of parts of government, it was intolerable.

Greg Dyke25:53

But I don't think any one could have foreseen on either side that he would then

Greg Dyke25:56

Kill himself assuming of course he did kill himself.

Presenter25:59

The Hutton report then, as you said, was set up to look into all the circumstances surrounding David Kelly's death. Some people at the time were critical of you because they said that you were too sketchy on the detail, that when it came to being questioned about particular dates and particular wording and particular memos, you seemed a little at sea in the circumstances.

Greg Dyke26:19

In the circumstances? I don't know. One of the things I was asked that day, the one that got the publicity, was I was asked, when did I first hear the broadcast?

Greg Dyke26:27

And I said, Well, it was some some period after the broadcast. I mean, as if as the Director General, you can hear every broadcast that goes out of every part of the B B C. But in the case of of Doctor Kelly, what was interesting was what had driven him to suicide, why had his name come into the public arena?

Greg Dyke26:47

We did, I thought, journalistically, what we were obliged to do and what we should have done, which is we did not release Dr. Kelly's name.

Greg Dyke26:55

We kept the confidentiality that journalists must have with their sources.

Greg Dyke27:01

But in the end, of course, it was the Ministry of Defence who

Greg Dyke27:04

put doctor Kelly's name into the public arena.

Presenter27:07

I think we've established that you are this very passionate individual and you're somebody who engages head on with things. And that, in essence, up until that point, had been your great success. Do you think when it came to being Director General of the BBC, it was that passion, that engagement that actually ended up?

Presenter27:24

Um scuppering the job that you should have done.

Greg Dyke27:28

Well, someone once said to me after I'd left the BBC, he said, you know.

Greg Dyke27:33

You made a terrible mistake. And I said, What was that? And he said, You actually you you believe that the BBC is independent of government?

Greg Dyke27:42

And it's only partially independent of government. And I suppose of these I've come to that conclusion.

Presenter27:47

Let's take a break for a piece of music.

Greg Dyke27:49

My my eldest son, Matthew, has a band. He's had it for a decade. They play quite a lot. Every so often I go along, and every so often they make the very brave decision of allowing me to sing with them. And I only do one song, and uh

Greg Dyke28:05

I'd like to take this on my island. It's Jerry Lee Lewis and Great Balls of Fire.

Speaker 328:10

You shake my nerves and you rattle my brain. Too much of love drive a man insane.

Speaker 328:16

You broke my wheel, the blood of three. Balls of fire. I let it love, but I thought it was fine. You came along and wooed my honey.

Speaker 328:29

I've changed my mind. This world is fine.

Speaker 328:33

Balls and fire. Kisses and fake

Presenter28:36

Jerry Lee Lewis and Great Balls of Fire. And I understand, Greg, that that is the song that you will sing to celebrate your sixtieth birthday this year.

Greg Dyke28:44

I am having a party to celebrate my sixtieth and I shall be singing Great Balls of Fire, which will, amongst a lot of my friends, will be quite a frightening prospect.

Presenter28:51

They might all exit for the bar at that point.

Greg Dyke28:53

I think that's where they'll be gone.

Presenter28:54

Uh you do now, of course, make a I'm sure a perfectly good uh living from you you wrote this book, you do you're still involved in business, you you make, as you say, the odd television programme, you do after dinner speeches, but it

Presenter29:07

It must surely get your goat that you're not at the centre of things. You're a man who thrives at being at the centre of things.

Greg Dyke29:14

Yes, except

Greg Dyke29:16

Um

Greg Dyke29:17

I would have left the B B C by now. I was only ever intending to do five or six years. I did four. Um I enjoyed it enormously. I think everybody who's been the Director General, when they leave, feel

Greg Dyke29:30

How would I put it? They they would feel that somehow a part of their life has gone uh and that they ha were at the centre for things and they're no longer. But uh anyone uh it's always interesting me about living through good times and bad times really. And one of one of the tests I think of of all be anyone can live through good times. Well, how do you survive the bad times is the test, the real test of people.

Presenter29:52

So you're looking for another challenge. What do you think it might be?

Greg Dyke29:56

Oh, I've no idea. I mean, I've now reached the age that when I was young I used to think people of that age were old and, you know, it was quite s they'd done all right to live that long.

Greg Dyke30:07

I'm now there.

Greg Dyke30:08

I will carry on.

Greg Dyke30:10

leading the life I do, unless something comes up that I think is really challenging and really exciting. But there aren't many things, you see. That's the interesting thing you discover. There aren't that many things. I don't want to go and run another big company.

Presenter30:23

Listener, his eyes are twinkling. So there is one big challenge ahead that you think somewhere, somehow, you'd like to get your hands on?

Greg Dyke30:33

There might be, who knows? If it if it came, I'd take it. If not, I'd be perfect you know, I I lead a perfectly happy, enjoyable life doing a range of different things.

Presenter30:44

Tell me about your last record.

Greg Dyke30:46

Well, when I was um putting this list together

Greg Dyke30:50

I consulted my kids, who said

Greg Dyke30:52

That you can't have.

Greg Dyke30:55

Eight records that are all prior to nineteen seventy five or something. So I said, Okay. So I thought through records of the last decade or so and I thought of uh Blur and Country House.

Speaker 331:10

Very big house in the country

Speaker 331:14

Watching up the new baits and the third and the eighth in the country

Speaker 331:20

He takes a boundary pills and pulls a boundary spells in the country

Speaker 331:25

Oh, it's like an animal farm, that's a railroad car in the country.

Speaker 331:31

He's got more than a core and life's a different story. Everything's going chack and

Presenter31:37

Blur and Country House. So of course we give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. What other book are you going to take with you to the island?

Greg Dyke31:45

Well, my first suggestion was that I wanted to take the Beginner's Guide to Boat Building.

Greg Dyke31:49

But I'm told I can't have that, so uh

Greg Dyke31:52

I would like the complete works of Dylan Thomas if I could, and if I can't have the complete works I'd like Under Milkwood.

Presenter31:57

You can have the complete works of Dylan Thomas. The other one's just too useful, I'm afraid. And what about your luxury?

Greg Dyke32:03

Well, there's lots of things in your life that you don't do, aren't there, that you regret. And one of mine is that I've never played a musical instrument. So I'd like a a guitar and maybe just a book to tell me how to learn to play.

Presenter32:17

You may have that, and I'm going to force you to save just one record.

Greg Dyke32:23

If it was just one record, I think it would be like a rolling stone.

Presenter32:28

Greg Dyke, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Greg Dyke32:31

Thank you.

Presenter32:39

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.