Camila Batmanghelidjh

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and six.

Presenter0:28

My Castaway this week has dedicated her life to the children that most of us would cross the street to avoid. She is Camilla Batmangellich. The children she works with are the stuff of newspaper headlines, feral teenagers who don't go to school, run drugs, and don't know a stable family life. The product of a privileged background herself, she decided early on to set aside her own thoughts of motherhood and devote her life to those she calls urban child warriors. Today, the project she set up in disused railway arches in South London has spread to help around eleven thousand young people every year.

Presenter1:06

Such is her notoriety that she is feted by celebrities, courted by politicians, and visited by Prince Charles, who was reputedly moved to tears by what he saw.

Presenter1:17

Camilla, let's be clear. The people who are actively welcomed through your doors are the ones that most of us would be terrified of even encountering.

Camila Batmanghelidjh1:24

Yes, uh possibly, because I think they can be quite frightening, they can be quite dangerous, they can harm people. You know, I can understand why people would be frightened of them. I love those children very much, but I'm fully aware of the fact that when they first arrive they can be very dangerous. So we take precautions in case they lose it.

Presenter1:49

And when a child walks through your doors, what is it they want? What is it they need?

Camila Batmanghelidjh1:55

They need what every child needs. They need loving care. They need nurture. They need somewhere safe to stay. And this is the thing. I think often people forget the humanity of these children. And typical arrival is a th maybe a thirteen year old boy. He's been run by drug dealers, careering drugs. He's uh got health issues. He's not been in school since he was ten years old. And what he wants is somewhere safe. And then, after a few days of trusting us, he will go and bring his younger siblings.

Camila Batmanghelidjh2:33

And the younger siblings are usually in households where maybe the parent is suffering from mental health difficulties or drug addictions. And what's really moving is these children's loyalty, total loyalty to their parent.

Presenter2:48

So for whatever reason the parent has in a sense entirely resp uh abandoned any responsibility for the child.

Camila Batmanghelidjh2:54

The parent can't function in a parenting capacity, the parent cannot function as an adult to protect their child.

Presenter3:03

I mentioned the phrase that you used, this urban child warrior. The actual phrase has a sort of romanticism to it. Is there a danger in talking about it, that that you have a romantic notion of these children battling against the odds? Because for a lot of us on the receiving end of their behaviour, they are the most unpleasant people to be around.

Camila Batmanghelidjh3:25

I don't think that it's romantic. I think it's realistic. And I acknowledge that they're really unpleasant. Remember, you know, I have to look after my staff and protect them against the unpleasantness of these children. You know, the debate is divided into demons and angels. And civil society perceives itself as angelic, and these children are the vehicles for demonic feelings. Whereas the truth is that civil society is just as responsible for the way these children behave in damaging ways.

Camila Batmanghelidjh4:02

About that.

Presenter4:03

Much later, let's hear your first Desert Island Disc.

Camila Batmanghelidjh4:06

Well, I've chosen The Mockingbird by Eminem because uh these kids taught me about rap. And I think this song is an indication of the regret and the apology a father who hasn't been meeting his child's needs experiences.

Speaker 24:26

But you see just as much as he did, we did not plan it to be this way Your mother and me but things have got so bad between us I don't see us ever being together ever again Like we used to be when we was teenagers But then of course everything always happens for a reason I guess it was never meant to be but it's just something we have no control over and that's what destiny is Well no more worries, rest your head and go to sleep Maybe one day we'll wake up and this'll all just be a dream Now hush little baby, don't you cry Everything's gonna be alright

Presenter4:50

Ew.

Presenter4:55

Min M and Mockingbird, reflecting there, Camilla Batman Gelich, the the dysfunction and the fractured lives that that so many of the children that you see uh come from. Your own childhood began many, many miles away, not just in terms of geography, but in terms of uh the environment you were brought up in, brought up in in great splendour uh in Iran.

Presenter5:25

Because of a fear of kidnapping? Because of your wealth?

Camila Batmanghelidjh5:27

Yeah, I didn't realize that. I just thought that any child who was born was supposed to be kidnapped. I thought that was completely normal.

Presenter5:35

And this was from the younger stage, from when you could walk and walk through the middle of the middle.

Camila Batmanghelidjh5:36

This is

Presenter5:40

It's the one

Camila Batmanghelidjh5:40

Wait was.

Presenter5:40

Give me a snapshot then. There are two bodyguards, the rest of the staff and people that surround you in the household.

Camila Batmanghelidjh5:42

Yeah.

Camila Batmanghelidjh5:46

Well, it was it's extraordinary actually because um I had no idea we were wealthy. You know, this is the thing. So I just the staff were cooks and maids and you know, then my father had a massive sports centre which he had built with ice skating rings, swimming pools, a ski sort of resort, the ice palace it was called, and we spent the entire time there.

Presenter6:15

And where was Mummy in all of this? I mean, surrounded by staff, but you haven't mentioned her yet. Was she a

Camila Batmanghelidjh6:17

To run

Camila Batmanghelidjh6:19

She is very much around, but our lifestyle was very different. My mother was a very beautiful, gregarious character with blue eyes. And there was a lot of very big parties. My brother and I used to lie on our stomachs down the stairs because you'd have the Queen of So and So, Ambassador So and So, everybody with their jewelry arriving in our house and the waiters just running around trying to sort them out. So, actually the night and day were reversed. So, daytime was quite quiet, night time the place came alive.

Presenter6:54

And I'm picturing chandeliers twinkling in the twilight, marble floors. Am I right?

Camila Batmanghelidjh6:56

Twinkling in the

Presenter7:08

The ones in my house.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:08

My ass?

Presenter7:11

The relationships that you had with all the staff around you. I mean, if if you're there, you presumably, as a little girl, formed pretty close bonds with them.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:18

Absolutely.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:20

And I think that they're the ones that tuned me into poverty, I think, and discrepancy.'Cause I remember being shocked that the maid lived in a in another room somewhere, with five of her children in the same room.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:34

And I I suddenly realized that actually their lifestyle was very different to ours.

Presenter7:38

You were born prematurely. You were very ill when you were born.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:40

Very ill, I was um uh very premature, only one kilogram.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:47

And they didn't put me in an incubator, and they thought I would die, so they sent me home to die.

Camila Batmanghelidjh7:52

And I I think I had a lot of problems because of the prematurity. I couldn't spell, I was struggling in school, I was finding I couldn't read the time, I couldn't tie my shoelaces, and I think my family just thought, you know, what was this? Your next piece of music then? My next piece of music is Shaharzade. And I remember this music because I so badly wanted to be able to figure skate. I could skate very well.

Presenter8:21

And this was at the ice rink your father had killed.

Camila Batmanghelidjh8:22

Your father did.

Camila Batmanghelidjh8:23

And I remember this music and I could feel that I wanted to like do the jumps and everything else, but actually I couldn't coordinate enough to be able to do it.

Presenter9:31

Part of the calendar prince from Rimsky Korsakov's Shaheer Azad, and uh memories there of ice skating in Iran with the family and never quite being able to pull off the figure eight, Camilla Patmenkelich. Um so you were an awkward child, you had no apparent academic prowess as a child, but you were loved and cherished by those uh around you. What sort of people were your mum and dad?

Speaker 19:42

Yeah.

Camila Batmanghelidjh9:52

totally loved and cherished, you know. They used to say that I was a little gift.

Camila Batmanghelidjh9:59

You know, but e even though I couldn't do anything, you know, but they they had this love for me. It was amazing.

Presenter10:06

You maintain you're talking about the love that you were given as a child and your parents adored you. You maintain that these feral teenagers, as they are described, the ones on the on the streets of London and any big city that you would encounter in Britain today um it sounds like a rather glib, simplistic message, but you maintain that what they need is to be shown love rather than the firm hand of uh the law or the social services.

Camila Batmanghelidjh10:29

Because, um

Camila Batmanghelidjh10:31

If you think of a child who's had every possible violation, they've been beaten, battered th they've had so much violence that they're not going to be afraid of the little threat of violence that society puts in front of them. And they are at a point where they don't care if they live or die. So what we do to them to terrorize them is meaningless to them. What surprises them is when someone can see some good in them and can show them love. Because the battle is these children have finished with living, and that's why they're so powerful. They're like suicide bombers. They don't care if they d destroy themselves in the path.

Presenter11:11

What about the chaos that these children must bring with them? Because of course if you are a a nine-year-old drug runner for mummy or daddy or the guy that lives across the street and you're uh you go missing from your place of work, uh your employers might come looking for you. Do do they ever bring the chaos in their doors?

Camila Batmanghelidjh11:28

Yeah, they do. And you know, we're uh whilst we're very warm and caring, we're very vigilant. So actually staff have all had training in uh compassionate restraint. We've got the Dalai Lama's uh security man down to train all the staff in compassionate restraint. And with a view of the city.

Presenter11:48

So what you tell them you love them while you're holding the hands behind

Camila Batmanghelidjh11:50

Yeah, you might. You might actually say to them, you know, I right now I'm going to stop you from doing this for your own safety and because I know you're going to regret hurting someone. That's a very different thing to saying, You're horrible, I'm going to stop you. And what we find is that the children then appreciate having been stopped because these kids are so dysregulated.

Camila Batmanghelidjh12:14

That when they lose it, they really lose it.

Presenter12:16

Do you what do you demand from them in in terms of uh being sober or not carrying weapons? Do they have to step up to the mark and and be clean and put their weapons down before they come through the door?

Camila Batmanghelidjh12:25

What we do is no drugs are allowed on the premises at all. So we're very strict about that. Weapons we know that a lot of these kids carry weapons in order to protect themselves. If we're aware of it, we take it off them. But we don't do a search. And touch wood, we haven't had any problems with that because we control the place through emotional contracts. It's much more powerful than surveillance cameras.

Presenter12:57

Your next piece of music.

Camila Batmanghelidjh12:59

My next piece of music is Nomaquit pas Jacques Brer, and it's um because of my French.

Camila Batmanghelidjh13:07

Kind of experiences that I chose that. And I think poetically, he's brilliant.

Speaker 113:11

He's brilliant.

Speaker 113:12

The mit de parmoi.

Speaker 113:16

Stop for your hand.

Speaker 113:18

De Père le de pluis, venu de paiuille, ne pull bar, je cros rélatel, je scapere mamour, pour couverir tent, et de l'umier, je frein domain, ou la mour sa roi, o la mour sra loi.

Presenter13:42

Jacques Brell and Ne Maquit Pas, your third desert islandess, Camilla, and memories of, as you described it, your French period. You ended up at a a a rather unconventional school in Switzerland.

Speaker 113:42

Jack.

Camila Batmanghelidjh13:50

Uh yeah.

Presenter13:55

That's what saved me.

Camila Batmanghelidjh13:55

That's what saved me.

Presenter13:56

What was their approach?

Camila Batmanghelidjh13:57

Well um

Camila Batmanghelidjh13:59

Unconventional education. We were only about fifteen children in the mountains of Switzerland. It was only three hours education. It wasn't in any way structured. So you could do what you liked. You know, I didn't do any maths, didn't really write anything. They tried to teach me some writing, but actually, you know, it wasn't

Presenter14:18

Uh

Camila Batmanghelidjh14:18

Uh

Presenter14:18

And so then, from this very unconventional school in Switzerland, you then end up at the terribly proper Sherbourne School for Girls in Dorset.

Camila Batmanghelidjh14:29

It was a shock, I must say, because, you know, I'd come from an avalanche mountain skiing every afternoon to this school where the girls had to walk down one side of the corridor and go up the other side.

Camila Batmanghelidjh14:43

and a school uniform with a tie, and and I used to stretch my school jumper, wet it, and stretch it over the chest of drawers, so that at least I'd have some movement in this blooming uniform, you know.

Presenter14:57

How did you deal with that?

Camila Batmanghelidjh14:58

Well, I was completely shocked totally shocked by the constraint of the place, and completely out of my depth I couldn't keep up with the academic work, ended up in the bottom set, with clearly five other mistakes

Camila Batmanghelidjh15:18

And uh, you know, I was thinking, Oh my god, I'm gonna survive here

Presenter15:22

So you are very much a a square peg in in a round hole shelf.

Camila Batmanghelidjh15:24

For the first two years. And then I I think on the third year I decided it was revolution. You know, I wasn't gonna have it anymore. And what did you do? It was more battle. I wasn't gonna give in. I had to be true to myself. And, you know, I needed my intellectual life. And there was a very amazing neurologist who saved my life there, actually.

Presenter15:48

Was he the man who discovered that you had dyslexia?

Camila Batmanghelidjh15:49

Yeah, he was the one. He did a specialized assessment and contacted the school. I had a reading age of seven and he told them that they had to get tape recorders in and, you know, let me thrive, basically.

Presenter16:06

And from there on in the world made a lot more sense.

Camila Batmanghelidjh16:06

Thank you.

Camila Batmanghelidjh16:09

Yeah, and I started breathing.

Camila Batmanghelidjh16:12

Yeah.

Presenter16:12

Next piece of music

Camila Batmanghelidjh16:13

My next piece of music is actually Amazing Grace. And when I first arrived at Sherbourne, I didn't know about priests. And all I could see was all these girls in a hall with a man dressed in black with a kind of white collar. And as far as I was concerned, he was shouting, you know. So I it sends um sort of chills up my spine this.

Speaker 216:43

Where is the screen that sun?

Speaker 216:51

Let's see the rage.

Presenter17:27

God's grace that my heart turns.

Presenter17:38

The choir of Craigar Presbyterian Church, Belfast, singing Amazing Grace and Memories There on your desert island of time spent at Sherbourne in Dorset. Meanwhile, while you're experiencing all of this,

Presenter17:50

Revolution is afoot back home in Iran. At one point you you believed that your father had in fact been killed.

Camila Batmanghelidjh17:58

It was a very strange environment to be in because the school life was carrying on as normal. And on the news I was watching the flags being burnt and the beginnings of the revolution. And I got news that my father had been executed. And then they came back and said, No, he's been imprisoned and couldn't get any news. Where was your mother? My mother at the time was in France, luckily. But she I think she just you know found it really difficult and fell apart in a way because of the whole upheaval of it. We were left here with no money and no status. And it was a very difficult time.

Camila Batmanghelidjh18:43

And what happened is that the school and my mother combined applied for political asylum. And I remember being in the dining hall.

Camila Batmanghelidjh18:52

and the head teacher, Miss Coulter, arriving and saying, You now have news for you, you now have political asylum and me holding this tray in my hand and thinking I'm supposed to think something or feel something, but I just didn't know how to react. It was like, was I supposed to be happy that I had political asylum, I'd lost my country, what was I supposed to feel?

Presenter19:18

The rest of your family then were clearly profoundly affected by the ramifications.

Camila Batmanghelidjh19:24

Yes. My sister became very disturbed by it, developed a sudden psychosis, having no history of mental illness, and actually attempted suicide. She tried to jump under a train, and did jump under the train, but survived.

Presenter19:44

And she eventually succeeded in committing suicide.

Camila Batmanghelidjh19:45

She eventually succeeded in committing suicide. She drove the ambulance from the hospital to a chemist, bought some pills, and then went to a hotel room and took her life.

Camila Batmanghelidjh19:57

Yeah.

Presenter19:57

Your father in fact survived the revolution in Iran. Wh when were you reunited with him eventually?

Camila Batmanghelidjh20:02

When I was at university I was at Warwick, and whilst I was at Warwick I wasn't allowed to use my name.

Camila Batmanghelidjh20:09

because they were very worried about repercussions. And the police there were very good. And then they were the ones who told me that my father had walked through the mountains from Iran to Turkey and was at the borders, and they were going to go and pick him up.

Presenter20:27

Your next piece of music.

Camila Batmanghelidjh20:28

My next piece of music is Jacqueline Dupre. And why have you chosen?

Presenter20:32

Uh

Camila Batmanghelidjh20:32

I've chosen Jacqueline to pray because I can relate to the fact that you could have such incredible music in you, but not be able to play, because of the j degenerative illness she developed. I cannot think of anything worse than having that level of gift and not being able to act on it.

Speaker 221:41

Uh

Presenter21:52

Jacqueline Dupre, playing the opening of Elgar's Cello Concerto with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir John Barbaroli. So your first professional practice, Camilla Batman Gelage, was only a matter of a few miles away from the mean streets of Peckham, but it was many miles away in terms of the circumstances that you were treating children in. It was in Kensington and Chelsea, and you were charged with trying to mend the broken pieces of these poor little rich kids. What on earth could be wrong with them in Kensington and Chelsea?

Speaker 122:07

But it

Camila Batmanghelidjh22:21

It it's very interesting because there is a similarity between the challenges that the children in Kensington and Chelsea face, and the similarity is the parent's inability to tune into the child's need.

Presenter22:38

problems manifest themselves.

Camila Batmanghelidjh22:39

Well, I there were children who were biting their fingers, drawing with the blood on the wall. There were children who were smearing their feces. So there there was a lot of disturbance. There was also a huge amount of love. And, you know, they were taking their children to ballet classes, cello classes, whatever class there was. So there was a great effort to look after their children. But in some ways it w it had a thoughtlessness about it too.

Presenter23:06

Working then though in this relatively comfortable i environment, why did you decide to give it up and go to the other side of the track?

Camila Batmanghelidjh23:13

What happened is BBC children in need were looking for a psychotherapist down in South London.

Presenter23:21

They were funding.

Camila Batmanghelidjh23:22

A post. They were funding a post and I interviewed. It was very young, but with a lot of qualifications. And then I realized the central flaw

Presenter23:22

A pause.

Camila Batmanghelidjh23:31

In the care for children, and that is the assumption that behind every child is a responsible carer who's going to take them to an appointment.

Camila Batmanghelidjh23:41

And I it really got to me, you know and I remember a referral of a seven year old who was trying to kill herself by putting a reading folder a plastic reading folder over her neck and wrapping a towel round.

Camila Batmanghelidjh23:53

and when I went to visit her and began working with her in her school,'cause I realized the parent wouldn't be able to bring her,

Camila Batmanghelidjh23:59

She disclosed that she'd been sexually abused by three men since the age of five, and I think that just kind of did it, because I thought, here is a five year old who went through horrific experiences, had no one to talk to, what flawed Bucked.

Presenter24:17

Uh

Camila Batmanghelidjh24:17

Yeah.

Presenter24:17

Uh

Camila Batmanghelidjh24:17

Uh

Presenter24:17

So, you decided to take yourself and your approach outside the structure and set up this charity? Yes. How tricky was that?

Camila Batmanghelidjh24:25

It was very tricky because it was you know a lot of the established people didn't want therapy outside the clinics and I was taking therapy to the inner cities inside the schools and letting children self-refer. And I don't think anything could have prepared me for the underbelly of children that I discovered, you know, in these schools.

Presenter24:50

Your next record.

Camila Batmanghelidjh24:51

My next record is Luther Van Dross and Dance with My Father. The lyrics are beautiful, and I it's the thoughtfulness of a child looking back on his history.

Presenter25:06

Back when I was a child

Presenter25:12

Before life removed all the energy.

Presenter25:18

My father would lift me high

Presenter25:24

And dance with my mother and me And then spin me around till I fell asleep

Presenter25:35

Luther Van Dross and Dance with My Father, describing there in the lyrics a sort of idealized, an ideal childhood, uh very far away from the children that you are dealing with uh day to day in your projects. As you describe them there, they're strung out on drugs when they arrive, they could be carrying knives or even guns, they're malnourished. Are you ever in fear of your life in the job you do?

Camila Batmanghelidjh25:56

I am.

Camila Batmanghelidjh25:58

Uh actually.

Camila Batmanghelidjh25:59

And not from the children, funnily enough.

Camila Batmanghelidjh26:03

but from their parents.

Camila Batmanghelidjh26:05

And I have I have been threatened with guns, I've been threatened, you know, with all sorts of things, kidnapping. Yeah, every day, every day it's a lucky day.

Presenter26:19

People who've been uh mugged or stabbed or had their houses robbed, who are listening to you talking, might think that you sound like too much of a woolly liberal, that when you're on the receiving end of the violent, abusive, intrusive behaviour that many of these young children act out, um you have to reply with uh the long arm of the law.

Camila Batmanghelidjh26:41

I I actually think that you do have to reply with robust compassion. You have to be very firm. They are dangerous and we take precautions against that danger because they can't regulate themselves. But what the problem is, is that punishment for the sake of punishment doesn't teach these kids anything. What you're looking for is restoring to the child the capacity to empathize. Without it these children are dead.

Presenter27:10

What about punishment for crimes, though? I mean i i if one is to take to a logical conclusion um the view that you have, then the two little boys who killed James Bulger all those years ago deserve as much time and patience and investment as the victims. That's difficult for a lot of people to swallow.

Camila Batmanghelidjh27:28

It is very difficult for a lot of people to accept, but you've got to understand that no child is born a criminal or a killer. Something happens to that child. And my anger is that society is not there when these children are being abused behind closed doors. The making of a criminal child is five, six, seven, eight, nine years. Where was civil society all that time? Recently I analyzed the social services statistics because they're very difficult to get hold of. But in one borough, for example, in one year 7,165 children were referred to social services. So that's quite extreme. Someone picked up the phone worrying about a child. Of that group, only two hundred and fifteen got registered on the child protection register. So actually, because the thresholds of intake into social services are so high because they're short of money, they don't take the cases. And when people audit the numbers of children with mental health and emotional difficulties or the scale of child abuse in this country, they audit what's got on in, not what's been left outside the doors.

Presenter28:44

How do you feel when you see the response broadly, usually, in the newspapers and by other politicians? Or when you see John Reed, the Home Secretary, talking about ASPOs and making sure that these people pay for their crime? What does it stir up in you?

Presenter29:00

What

Camila Batmanghelidjh29:01

I have realized is that a lot of politicians are cowards. Privately they know, and often behind closed doors they'll say to me, Oh, the public will never accept that, Camilla, but it's true what you're saying and I want to turn round to them and say, Where's your guts? Where's your leadership? You know, the science of it is there for everyone to see that actually compassion and love develops the brain and develops control.

Camila Batmanghelidjh29:28

What's your seventh record? My seventh record is Bob Marley's Redemption Song, and I think Bob Marley has developed into a kind of street philosopher for the kids. This is the person that actually they admire the most. Here you are, these criminal kids have some sense of quality.

Speaker 129:51

Some say it's just a part of it. We've got a fulfilled pool.

Speaker 130:00

Won't you hear? The same

Speaker 130:05

These songs of freedom.

Speaker 130:08

Cause all I ever have.

Speaker 130:13

Redeem Sean Song

Speaker 130:17

Today we shine a song

Presenter30:19

BOB MARLY AND REDEMPTION SONG. So, Camilla Batman Gelich, you are devoted in your life to the pursuit of perfection, but in essence you're surrounded by dysfunction and horror. Is there room for your life then, and th do you have a life beyond a dedication to trying to help these children?

Camila Batmanghelidjh30:38

I I really make time to spiritually recharge. So I make sure, because you can get really depleted. I'm a very spiritual person. I'm not religious, but I'm profoundly spiritual. You know, I think I just have an intuitive structure. You know, I just have an intuitive structure around this area. And, you know, I think that if I did anything different, I wouldn't be true to myself.

Presenter31:10

You decided very early on not to become a mother.

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:13

Hmm.

Presenter31:14

Firstly, why, and secondly, what repercussions has that had for you?

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:18

I watched my grandfather, who is a very vocational personality, he is a paediatrician, and he absolutely loved his work. People used to queue up in the streets to see him and I could see that he was torn between his vocation and his family.

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:36

And I decided that I had to make a choice. It was either my own family, having my own children,

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:43

Or honouring this vocation. What I was clear about is that I couldn't do both at the same time.

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:49

and I have not regretted one second of it.

Presenter31:53

How old were you when you made that choice?

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:54

I made that choice very young actually. I I had a sense of it then.

Presenter31:54

Yeah.

Camila Batmanghelidjh31:59

And then I think when I was about eighteen, nineteen, I knew that that's what I had to do.

Presenter32:05

And so when you go home at night to your own space and close the door, there's never a moment's regret that there is not a shining eyed, bright, functional child there to greet you.

Camila Batmanghelidjh32:17

No. In fact, I I would hate to find a child in my house when I go.

Camila Batmanghelidjh32:23

I'm just so relieved that there's no child in sight.

Camila Batmanghelidjh32:30

I really you know, the level at which I operate in this work, I don't have anything to give at the end of the day to my own children. And I would hate my own children to be on the sidelines watching. You know, and there's so many repercussions, feelings of jealousy, you know, feeling that why am I taking care of other kids? You know, I anticipated all of this, didn't want to put my own children through it.

Presenter32:55

Let's hear your last record.

Camila Batmanghelidjh32:57

My last record is Brahm's sonata for piano and cello.

Presenter33:03

And why have you chosen it?

Camila Batmanghelidjh33:04

'Cause I think it's really beautiful.

Presenter34:03

Part of the first movement of Brahm's sonata for piano and cello played by Miroslav Rostropovich and Rudolf Serkin. So, Camilla, aside from the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, you're allowed a book to take on this island. Novels, I understand, don't particularly appeal, though, given the dyslexia. No.

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:18

From the desk

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:19

But I tell you what I love, Jean Paul Sach's Being in Nothingness. The minute you get the hang of being, he undoes it into nothingness. I love that book.

Presenter34:29

You like the mental gymnastics of that?

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:30

That's the best. Oh, yeah, that's a fantastic book. And the luxury.

Presenter34:34

Deep.

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:34

Yeah.

Presenter34:35

You would

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:35

A yo-yo.

Presenter34:36

Yeah.

Presenter34:37

Now you've got to explain yourself.

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:37

Now you've got to explain this.

Presenter34:39

I'm not simply going to let that one go.

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:41

Then it I just think yo-yos are so amazing, aren't they? They're kind of you do something and yet you do nothing.

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:50

And I love them.

Presenter34:51

And if the waves were to crash against the shore and and wash away the disks, what's the one you would run to save?

Camila Batmanghelidjh34:57

Um I think probably

Camila Batmanghelidjh35:03

Yeah.

Presenter35:03

Mm, Bob Marley.

Presenter35:05

Camilla Batman Gelich, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Presenter35:17

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.