Rt Hon David Cameron MP

Rt Hon David Cameron MP0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and six, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

Mike Costaway this week is a politician. Six months ago, he became the fifth leader of the Conservative Party in nine years, inheriting an organisation only just beginning to revive after three thumping electoral defeats. He's only been an MP for five years. Putting him in charge was a gamble the party faithful felt they had to take. Articulate, quick-witted, and undeniably clever, he got a first from Oxford, he was brought up in affluent circumstances in the home counties. He worked for Conservative Central Office, then the television company Carlton Communications, before entering Parliament. I think, he says of himself, that I probably have more hinterland than frontland. For me, family, friends, and home are the most important thing in my life. If politics interfered with that too much, I'd call it a day. He is, of course, David Cameron. That's very noble new man stuff, David, but it can't last, can it? Because this kind of job eats you alive.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP1:21

Well, I hope it doesn't. And I don't think it's, you know, impossible to combine a high-profile job and a family life. You just have to lay down some clear boundaries. Well, I try not to leave home in the morning before about quarter to eight because I help get our children up, one of whom goes to school, and I try to make sure that a couple of nights a week I'm back in decent time, you know, one night a week at least to sort of bath the kids and do that. But you've you've got to try and keep a balance, not just for the family, but also I think

Presenter1:31

Sometimes it

Rt Hon David Cameron MP1:51

It helps you make better decisions. You know, if you're permanently exhausted and frazzled and going from one meeting to the next, you'll forget what you're trying to do.

Presenter1:58

And you've got a house in the country, and you've got a vegetable patch, and you've won awards for your tomatoes. This is all correct, isn't it?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP2:04

This is yes, I mean, I have to say the uh village show that I entered, Samantha, my wife, said actually she wasn't clear that there was anyone uh between the ages of six and sixty who'd entered their vegetables apart from me. But I think digging a garden is a good way of switching off as well, and good fun, and good for you, so

Presenter2:14

The part from

Presenter2:19

And Samantha's got a full-time job, and your three children are all under five. So deciding to take on the leadership of the Tory party must have been a huge decision.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP2:29

It was a big decision, and I uh didn't do it lightly. I always thought there was a a good prospect, a fair prospect of winning the competition to become leading. I did, that might sound arrogant, but I I thought it was very important.

Presenter2:37

Did you

Rt Hon David Cameron MP2:41

To think it through and think: can I cope with it? Can my family cope with it? Is it the right thing to do?

Presenter2:46

So there was a slight hesitation. I mean, you might have thought, perhaps it's my turn next time. Here are these people called Clark and Rifkind and Fox and Davis and you know, I mean, they've all been at it far longer than me.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP2:57

I did think about that. After the the th as you put it, the third election defeat. I I stopped and thought about it. And uh Samantha we we talked about it a lot. We you know, she was in in two minds about it, on the one hand worried about the effect on the family, but on the other hand

Presenter3:06

One hand

Rt Hon David Cameron MP3:10

having faith in me, which is good to know. And she was keen for me to go for it.

Presenter3:12

Ta-da!

Presenter3:14

But you must have been I mean, as so many people were amazed when it happened. I mean, they were only four years an MP. I'm sorry to keep stressing this, but it is true, isn't it? I mean, with with minimal shadow minister only shadow ministerial experience, how could you have expected to get it? And isn't it amazing that you did?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP3:30

Well, I I I suppose it is in a way, but I think I

Rt Hon David Cameron MP3:34

I had a very clear campaign saying what needed to change in the party and being quite uncompromising about that and not trying to please everybody by saying what they wanted to hear, but by saying some of the things that I think they needed to hear. And I think by being clear, that's why my campaign sort of struck a chord and why I'm at the party conference in what was rather an extraordinary week, it it did just take off. Back on number one, tell me about that. Well this is Tangled Up in Blue by Bob Dylan. I think this song is him at you know, his most poetic. And I've chosen the live version because he actually changes some of the lyrics in the live version. And I think the sound of the audience listening to him and responding would help me feel less alone on my desire.

Speaker 24:13

She was married when they first met to a man four times her age. He left her penniless in a state of regret. It was time to burst out of the cage.

Speaker 24:25

And they drove that car as far as they could, abandoning it at well.

Speaker 24:30

Spitting up on a dark set night, both agreeing that it was bad.

Speaker 24:37

Uh

Presenter4:38

She turned around.

Speaker 24:39

I'm gonna look at it.

Presenter4:42

That's Bob Dylan and Tangled Up in Blue, the live version from Real Live album. Um your ancestors, David Cameron, have been Tangled Up in Blue for for years. I think there's some distant MPs in the family, yeah?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP4:53

There are, but no um I mean my father was a stockbroker for forty years, he still is actually. My my mother was a magistrate for many years, um and my grandparents weren't involved in politics, but my great-grandfather, I think on my mother's side, was um MP in Berkshire and and quite a few before him. I think before they actually they sort of really had to get elected. I think there was a bit of uh rotten burrows going on probably.

Presenter5:17

And one of them put a tax on food, which is always a a bad idea in any era.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP5:20

You know, what what it was it was a sort of early political memory was we had this poster of my I suppose must have great-grandfather's Liberal opponent um in the nineteen oh five election and they the liberal candidate had outlined all of the food taxes and other taxes that my great-grandfather had voted for and this was probably the leaflet that helped to get rid of him in the nineteen oh five elections.

Presenter5:40

There are um also royal connections in the family tree, aren't there? But on the wrong side of the blanket, I gather.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP5:46

Actually, after becoming leader of the Conservative Party, I sort of discovered more about my family than I knew before, and suddenly.

Presenter5:51

People do it for you.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP5:52

You know, people do all this work and suddenly find out that, you know, you're descended from a the mistress of a royal household or something like that.

Presenter5:58

This is Mrs Jordan, Dora Jordan, mistress of William the Fourth, I gather, who is an actress. And royal bastardy is a bit of a theme, really, in your family,'cause Sam is also descended, is she not, from

Rt Hon David Cameron MP6:10

From Nell Gwynne, I think.

Presenter6:12

Yeah.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP6:13

One of the things that happened very early on in the leadership, I suddenly got this thing pushed through my door and it was one of my neighbours who's Portuguese had this article from um a Portuguese paper and the headline was Real bastardo and I asked someone what that meant and they at the first time they said oh I think it means real bastard and I said no that can't be right and then they found out no no royal bastard

Presenter6:32

So we're safe to presume, I guess, that the family on your mother and father's side were were kind of tangled up in blue down through the ages. But was it was it when you were at home as a boy in the old rectory, Newbury, was it a

Rt Hon David Cameron MP6:45

The old three Peasmore. It wasn't it wasn't a vi it wasn't a very political um family. We talked a lot about issues and things and we were very close family having sort of dinner together and watching the news and talking about things. But you know, all through sort of school and most of university I wasn't really clear about what I wanted to do.

Presenter7:03

But you were quite precocious, I read, as a little boy.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:05

Yeah, I've been told that.

Presenter7:08

Talked a lot.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:09

Talked a lot.

Presenter7:09

And you were fat.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:09

Output transcript.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:10

Yes, quite I mean, not sort of, you know, I don't know, I wouldn't have broken the scales.

Presenter7:15

I thought your nickname was Pavarotti.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:16

Oh, that was one friend did call you That is true, someone did call me Pavarotti once, so it was never that bad with respect to Pavarotti, obviously, who's

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:25

I'm sure we've got these things well under control. But no, I was quite tubby as a as a child. Record number two. Well this would really just remind me of my childhood. Uh this is Ernie, The Fastest Milkman in the West by Benny Hill. And I just remember playing this at home uh over and over again. And when you're asked to sing a song, this is this is, I'm afraid, about the only song which the words I can always remember all of them.

Presenter7:45

So give us a quick blast before Benny Hill died. How does it begin? Just quote it to me.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:48

How does it

Rt Hon David Cameron MP7:49

You can hear the hoofbeats pound as they race across the ground. The clatter of the wheels as they span round and round. It's wonderful stuff.

Speaker 37:55

They said she was too good for him, she was awy, proud and chic. But Ernie got his cocoa there three times every week. They called him Ernie!

Speaker 38:06

And he drove the fastest milk car in the West.

Speaker 38:10

She said she'd like to bathe in milk He said all right sweetheart And when he'd finished work one night he loaded up the cart He said you wanted pasteurise'cause pasteurize is best She says Ernie I'll be

Presenter8:23

Abby if it comes up to me chest was Ernie the Fastest Milkman in the West by Benny Hill. Suggestive or what?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP8:29

Well, I know it's sort of early love song, really, and rivalry, but you know, wonderful universal themes. I haven't heard it for ages, and that was that was bliss.

Presenter8:38

So off to Eaton, lots of not particularly good O-levels, I gather. How many did you get?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP8:43

I I think I got twelve I got twelve O levels, so lots of them, um, but not particularly good grades. I didn't really get going academically until I started specializing in doing A levels. And I loved all of them and and had a great time.

Presenter8:52

Anyway,

Presenter8:54

Straight A's and an exhibition to Braze Nose to read P P E. I'm still really looking though for the point when political ambition seized you, you know, when you decided you wanted to change the world. Because again, y you get to Oxford and there's no history of you in the in the Conservative club or in the Union.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:09

Conservative club with the Union.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:11

I think that's right. I didn't have wake up and have one epiphanous moment when I decided, you know, politics was what I wanted to do and I wanted to be a politician. I think I was a member of the Conservative Association, but I didn't go to the Union very much. I I had um lots of other things I was doing.

Presenter9:26

But you were a member of of a rather exclusive club called the Bullingdon Club.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:30

Yes, I was hoping we might not come onto that.

Presenter9:32

Well

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:34

I mean

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:36

I suppose, as the as the man said, when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible. I mean, it was a Oxford is a very sort of quite a clubby place and quite a sort of drink fueled place, and I suppose, like others, I

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:47

Probably drank too much and did things I shouldn't have done, but nothing too heinous, I hope.

Presenter9:50

But you had to be an old Etonian.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:52

No, it certainly wasn't exclusively on the table.

Presenter9:54

But you had to be invited.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP9:56

Yes, it was just a dining club. There are lots of different sort of

Presenter9:58

It was more than just a dining club. There's an initiation ceremony, isn't there? That when your rooms get wrecked, isn't there?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP10:04

There was sort of y sort of s rather stupid things, um, but as I say, nothing I don't think anything too heinous to remember.

Presenter10:12

And when it met it sort of went on hinges and destruct

Rt Hon David Cameron MP10:14

And on binges and dissipated.

Presenter10:22

And is this the repository for youthful indiscretions then?

Presenter10:27

Well, you know what I'm asking. I mean, is this where you spoke smoked the s spliff or snorted the coke?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP10:28

You know what I mean?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP10:29

And is this what

Rt Hon David Cameron MP10:33

No, I had a I had a w you know, good time at university. I worked I worked moderately hard, but on the on the the question or hinting darkly at, I've always just I think it's fair in in life to say, you know, you're entitled to a private past that can be both private and in the past. And whereas as a politician today, people are entitled to, you know, poke around and have a look at my life, and they do, and and that's that's fine.

Presenter10:55

It's just that obviously your your your coyness about answering it, if one can call it that leads one to s feel there's something sort of bigger and more to know. I mean wouldn't it have been easier? I I agree, you can't move now, you can't go back on your word now.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP11:05

Wouldn't it have been a

Rt Hon David Cameron MP11:07

Now, you can't go back on your word now. What you can do in life, I think, is work out what you think the right dividing line is. And I think the right dividing line is a past that's private when you didn't know you were going to be a politician and you probably said and did things you shouldn't have done. And the current, where you put yourself forward and you're in public life. And so to have that dividing line, I think it's right. The problem is.

Presenter11:26

is, as you know, there will always be people who will go on trying to find out, and the suspicion therefore arises, if you don't say, Yes, when I was in the Bullingdon Club I did all that stuff that they think, Well, therefore perhaps it happened later, when you were in a more responsible position, maybe in Whitehall.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP11:30

Attention.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP11:41

Well, I you know, I as I've said, I think I've sort of set out the right way of talking about it. It was gone through in the leadership election in quite a lot of detail, and I thought what was interesting in a way was after a bit, you know, it was just dropped because I think people recognise that we're entitled to a private past and they didn't want people to go on about it. Echo number three.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP11:59

This is Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. One of my great friends in life and at university, we were in the same sort of almost next door rooms in Brasenose, called James Ferguson, and he had a guitar and he was notoriously slow at learning it. And it took him a whole term, I think, to just get to Wish You Were Here, which got this wonderful sort of chord sequence. I used to go off to lectures and come back afterwards and he'd still be in bed playing his guitar. And he got a pretty good degree too, so maybe this was the right approach. But I'd always think of him and happy times at university.

Presenter12:24

Maybe it's

Speaker 212:33

So

Speaker 212:35

So you think he could tell?

Speaker 212:40

Heaven from hell!

Speaker 212:43

Blue skies and pain

Speaker 212:48

Can you tell a green field?

Speaker 212:52

McCarthy

Presenter12:53

Oh steel rail

Presenter12:56

A smile! That was Pink Floyd and Wish You Were Here. I gather too, David, while we're poking around in the camera and long grass, that the Soviets once tried to recruit you, is that right?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP13:08

I can't prove that this is true, but in my year between school and university, I worked in Hong Kong for a while and then I travelled on the Trans-Siberian Railway across Russia. So this was 1985, and so it was sort of pre-Gorbachev. And then I met a great friend in Moscow. We went down to the Black Sea and we were on the beach in Yalta. And these two Russians who both spoke perfect English sort of turned up on the beach, which was mainly reserved for sort of foreign tourists and took us out to dinner and interrogated us very friendly way about life in England and what we thought and politics.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP13:41

You know, we were obviously very careful and guarded in what we said, but later on when I got to university, my politics tutor, so that was a definite attempt. And so when I was vetted for my favorite.

Presenter13:49

That is it be on your MI55.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP13:51

Yeah, no, there must be a farmer because I I when I became a special advisor in the Treasury some years later, you know, I they asked about how I visited communist countries and so I told this story and the

Rt Hon David Cameron MP14:01

A vetting officer filling a notebook full of

Rt Hon David Cameron MP14:04

And it all probably completely harmless.

Presenter14:06

So you got in, as you say, into Conservative Central Office in 1988. You were really there, I think you said, at the high watermark of the Thatcher years.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP14:13

Batch of you.

Presenter14:14

But you'll have had a ringside seat at the downfall of misses Thatcher. Presumably that was pretty unedifying.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP14:18

It was. It was it was unedifying and um you know it was sort of amazing that someone who who had you know won elections for our party and done so much was was getting turfed out in this way. Um but on the other hand, you know the the poll tax had done a huge amount of damage and and you could you could feel that in from inside central office. But it was a very sad, sad time and uh you know, particularly those pictures of Mrs Thatcher leaving Downing Street obviously were you know very powerful images.

Presenter14:46

You worked for Norman Lamont, you worked for Michael Howard after she'd gone. But then suddenly, nineteen ninety four, you up and off and go to work in business in Carlton Communications. Why would you do that when, as I understand it, your friends by then had realized that you could well be capable of achieving high office? Why would you suddenly walk out on it all?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:05

But I wanted to get some experience of business life and to see the commercial world and um and learn.

Presenter15:11

Did you think then you might like to be Prime Minister? No, I didn't. I mean, gentlemen.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:14

No one ever believes this, but actually, I don't think most people go into politics thinking I want to be Prime Minister. Well, it's a mixture, I think, of.

Presenter15:14

Nobody

Presenter15:19

Well

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:22

There's a mixture in all politicians of some egotism and some altruism, and I think we've got to be honest and just hope that the balance is a is a reasonable one.

Presenter15:29

And then you were elected in 2001 as MP for Whitney Douglas Heard and Sean Woodward's old seat. That's right. Talk more about that in a minute, but let's have record number four.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:34

It's a thrived.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:37

Um well this is Mendelssohn's On Wings of Song, um which was sung at our wedding um in nineteen ninety six and it was I mean it's still when I look back it's still sort of the happiest day of my life.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:51

And um and when I hear this I can

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:53

I'd see myself in the church, sitting next to Sam.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP15:58

And um maybe lovely time on the desert tonight.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP16:01

Oh, but I should be standing on the side of the room.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP16:06

What was the movement?

Presenter16:27

Yeah.

Presenter16:28

Fisher and fish and optical sh

Presenter16:55

That was Kiritakanawa with Mendelson's On Wings of Song with the Utah Symphony Orchestra conducted by Julius Rudel. And memories, David Cameron, of your marriage to Sam in 1996, as you say. Yours is altogether a very blessed story for the most part, you know, as you've described, conventional, rounded, happy, high-achieving, undramatic. And then in 2001, you and Sam had your first child, Ivan.

Presenter17:20

How long was it before you realized something was wrong with him?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP17:24

There was a few days I mean only a few days and we went home.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP17:28

To Sam's parents' house in Oxfordshire, and we just noticed he was having these sort of strange movements, very sudden, jerky movements.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP17:37

And you know, you obviously worry about everything as a parent and you start asking questions and initially we were told it was fine and then we took him to hospital and they ran some tests and said that he had this very rare condition which has very poor outcomes in terms of make means you're very disabled and can't really do a lot of things. But it's a combination of epilepsy and cerebral palsy. And so it was a sort of complete shock.

Presenter18:04

And he needs twenty-four hour care. He's um I don't know what the prognosis is, but he's

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:09

Well, they've never really got to the bottom of exactly what was the cause, but they just can describe the symptoms and he does need twenty-four h. He's a wonderful boy and he's got

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:18

most lovely sort of eyes and

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:20

He

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:22

He's he he um definitely interacts with us in the way he looks at you and

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:26

the way he moves his head and things. Um but he he often is in a lot of pain and

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:32

He has a it's a you know the the thing that worries us is his quality of life and trying to make sure he has a good quality of life.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:39

But we're very o positive, optimistic people, we're determined to

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:42

you know, give him all we can and make sure he's part of a happy family.

Presenter18:46

Was there a moment when you realized you could do that? Obviously, when you're first told these things, it must be a very surreal experience. It is.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:52

It is because it it hits you like a um like almost morning.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP18:57

Um, the loss of something because I think you're you're mourning the gap between your expectation and and what what has happened, and so it does take a a lot of time to get over.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:06

But there was a sort of moment I remember driving.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:08

home from the John Rective Hospital and just thinking, you know

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:12

We're gonna get through this.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:15

And thinking, you know, if what if we can't do a good job and look after him, you know.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:18

then we failed. And and I think, you know, we do we do our best. And, um

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:23

He's he's a lovely boy, but he has a he has a tough life.

Presenter19:25

It th the cause, as you say, hasn't been fully diagnosed, and presumably they don't know then whether it's hereditary or or where it comes from.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:33

Yes, they've they've sort of um they gave us a sort of blended probability. They said, Well, if it is genetic and inherited, then it could be a sort of one in four chance of it happening again, but if it isn't, it's more like

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:43

one in a million. Um so the sort of blended probability they said of one in twenty.

Presenter19:47

But it means that every pregnancy is a gamble. So it's a big decision even to have another pregnancy. And you had Nancy, she's two.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:54

She's two.

Presenter19:55

And she's fine.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP19:56

She's fine, she's um wonderful and uh she's very good with him as well, actually, very protective and always cuddling him and uh

Presenter20:02

And then earlier this year, you produced Arthur. That's right. And he's a very good idea.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP20:02

And only on this year.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP20:05

He's so funny. He um that when I last saw him rather early this morning.

Presenter20:10

But is it must be a nerve-wracking business?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP20:12

It is, it is because when when Arthur and when Nancy were born, obviously we were watching them like hawks and so instead of that great elation at birth, there's still some elation, but you're watching very you know, are they going to make a strange movement? Is everything going to be all right? And so the first week, two weeks, is very tense.

Presenter20:25

So all of that obviously explains what we were talking about at the very beginning here, that you you want to retain a balance between home and family. You can't suddenly not take an active, a full and active part as a father in this family, and yet at the same time you've got this thing called the Conservative Party, which is desperately in need. On the other hand, the chances of you being pulled in two different directions have to have a

Rt Hon David Cameron MP21:08

And uh it would be more difficult to do my job if I didn't have that sort of help.

Presenter21:13

Number five.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP21:13

Radiohead's one of my favourite bands, and Fake Plastic Trees is a beautiful song. And I went to a Radiohead concert the other day, met Tom York and.

Presenter21:21

Can he blade this for you?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP21:23

He did. I asked I sent rather a sort of sad letter saying I'd love to come to the concert. Thank you for inviting me. P. S. Please play this my favourite song. And he did.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP21:33

Where's the ride?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP21:43

She lives with a broken mind

Rt Hon David Cameron MP21:50

Crackpot

Presenter21:56

Just crumble.

Presenter21:59

It's radio head and fake plastic trees. Compassionate conservatism is your line, borrowed, I think, from George Bush's 2000 campaign. You've emphasized the compassion, is what people would say, and you know, disability provision and end to child poverty, and green policies, of course. But people are saying when are you going to address the conservatism? And I don't mean, you know, when do your policy reviews come home to Rooster? What of the fundamental conservative beliefs ring big bells with you?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP22:30

At the heart of everything I say and do and what the Conservative Party stands for are two big principles. The first is trusting people, is trying in everything to give more power and responsibility to people and to families. And the second is sharing responsibility, recognising that Conservatives believe that government doesn't have all the answers.

Presenter22:50

In not mentioning the key policies that are so close to the heart of the diehards, of the Tory grassroots, actually.

Presenter22:57

Are you, in fact, willing to alienate them, as it were? Or can you manage without them? Is that the strategy?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP23:03

I don't want to alienate anybody. The the way I think about it is that, you know, the political parties should be like a well-tuned orchestra and it's got to have a brass section and a string section and

Presenter23:07

But you're not giving them what they want, is the point.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP23:14

I think the problem in the past is perhaps we we'd just emphasised some some points and some policies more than others, and there was a danger that the Conservative Party was becoming

Rt Hon David Cameron MP23:24

The tax cut, crime and immigration policy.

Presenter23:25

Overdose on right-wing ideology, as you said.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP23:26

What people want to know is balance. They want to see that your concerns mirror their concerns.

Presenter23:33

But it must be that you've worked out that that can work for you, as it were, and that what you've identified is this, right, what people say you've identified is that there is a some middle ground, the middle ground swingers, as it were, if we can call them that, who move from one side to the other, and they are ten percent of the electorate, and you're after them, hence the green policies and hence the compassion.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP23:53

I look at it in a slightly different way, that I think what you ought to do in politics is take your values, trusting people, sharing responsibility, apply them to the big problems of the day, and just say what you think and say what you believe. And if that means that sometimes you're going to agree with your opponents, be relaxed about that. In a way, the mistake the Conservative Party made was when Tony Blair came along and plonked himself firmly in the middle of British politics. Some Conservative politicians kept asking, well, how can we create some distance between us and this man who's taken the centre ground of British politics? Well that, to me, is the wrong thing to say. And so if Tony Blair does or says some things that we agree with, we should say so.

Presenter24:30

Sure. But it's a similar exercise then, really, to the one that New Labour carried out in the 1990s, isn't it? Which is to move towards the middle ground.

Presenter24:39

put your party activists you know, just tell them to hush up a minute because this is where you're going to win it. And you know, the the crusty old majors who want hard lines on immigration and crime and you've got to leave them

Rt Hon David Cameron MP24:49

I've changed the emphasis very clearly and moved the Conservative Party back to where it belongs, which is in the mainstream of British politics.

Presenter24:59

So, why don't you give yourselves another name, as in New Labour? What about New Conservative?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP25:01

Name

Rt Hon David Cameron MP25:02

I just don't think that's

Rt Hon David Cameron MP25:05

You know, I think that's the weakness of Labour, is just you sort of change the name on the bottle. Next record. Well, this is This Charming Man by The Smiths. I probably don't agree with lead singer Morrissey about anything. He's a passionate vegetarian, and I'm a big meat-eater. But when he burst onto the scene and appeared on top of the pops with the flowers hanging out the back of his trousers and the NHS hearing aid, it was a sort of iconic moment for people of my age and generation.

Presenter25:31

Uh

Speaker 225:31

On Chipby Hill on a hillside, that's a

Speaker 225:39

Let your name come on off me, yeah

Speaker 225:45

When in this drumming car

Speaker 225:49

Who's Joey Marie?

Presenter25:55

Uh

Speaker 225:55

Uh

Presenter25:55

That's the Smiths and this charming man. The recent local elections have been very encouraging for you, for the Conservatives, but William Hague did nearly as well in the 2000 local elections, I think, and was humiliated a year later, as I'm sure you know only too well in the general election. It's a huge mountain you have to climb. It's a huge cephalological mountain, is it not?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:18

It is no massive mountain, no doubt about it. To get forty percent of the vote as we did in the local elections.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:26

You know, when

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:27

Over a third of people are turning out is one thing, but to get over forty percent

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:31

When two-thirds of people are voting at a general election is an entirely different and greater thing, and I'm well aware of the mountain we have to climb. There's a shortcut.

Presenter26:39

Of course, which is coalition with the Lib Dems. That could bring real hope of office.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:41

Well that could

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:43

I d I don't think it it profits politicians at all to to sort of

Rt Hon David Cameron MP26:49

try and posit ideas like that. I hope a lot of Liberal Democrats supporters and voters will will come and support us, particularly now the Conservative Party is back in the mainstream and is got a big commitment to the environment.

Presenter27:00

But do you rule out coalition?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:01

Well, I I want to win the election outright, and I don't think it's sensible to

Presenter27:06

But if you didn't, would you consider it?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:08

Well, I d I just don't want to speculate on what might happen if there was a hung parliament.

Presenter27:13

So you're not ruling out coalition?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:14

Yeah.

Presenter27:15

What?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:15

Uh

Presenter27:15

Yeah.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:15

I'm ruling in the attempt to win the next election outright.

Presenter27:19

Mr President, reveal your preferences, if you will, for the Labour leader, and I'm not offering you an open goal here, I'm saying is it in the Tory interests now you must have considered this time and again to battle on against a Prime Minister perceived to be lamed, you know, whose strength is ebbing and against whom you can make political capital, or would it be better to bring in the new guy, Gordon Brown, if it be he, and see if you can knock the gloss off him before a general election? Well I think Tony Blue Tony Blue

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:45

Tony Blair has been a very difficult politician for Conservatives to defeat. There's no doubt about that. Yeah, to be frank, I think probably we'll do better after um you know, he's he's beaten us three times and

Presenter27:57

Which of them worries you more at the dispatch box?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP27:57

Brew which

Presenter28:00

But I've never faced

Rt Hon David Cameron MP28:01

Um Cordon Brown at the dispatch box.

Presenter28:03

So we worries you more, then?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP28:05

I mean, in a way, I enjoy my well, enjoy is too strong way of putting it, but Prime Minister's questions with Tony Blair, there there's some sort of light and shade because he he's got a sense of humour and uh that there there are always light moments as well as very serious moments. I I'm not sure with Gordon how many light moments there will be.

Presenter28:22

One last quick question on that, though. I mean, you had to join the Punch and Judy game in the end, didn't you? You said you wouldn't, but there you go.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP28:28

Well I still try to I mean last week at Bramser's Questions I asked a set of questions about AIDS drugs in Africa, which I'd asked questions about before and I've helped to change government policy a bit. And I'll go on doing positive things.

Presenter28:40

But you're still thinking up the Clever Clog's lines in the back room, aren't you? You know, he had a future once and the fossil-fueled Chancellor. I mean, it th that's the game, that's called punch and jeans.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP28:46

Chancellor.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP28:48

That's the game, that's cool.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP28:50

So you've given in on that? No, I haven't, because I think what matters most is are you being constructive in politics? You know, have I called for every Labour minister to resign? No, I haven't. Yes, in the House of Commons it is quite theatrical and and you still enjoy it.

Presenter28:52

So you're giving in on that?

Presenter29:04

And you still enjoy bopping one?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:05

You have to do a bit of bopping, I suppose, from time to time. Thank you.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:09

Um this is uh Perfect Cy Circle by R. E. M. Um when Sam and I uh first started going out with each other, we didn't share that much in the way of musical tastes and and we were living quite different lives. I was working for Norman Lamont in the Treasury and she was a student at uh what was Bristol Polytechnic, she's a brilliant artist, but one thing we did agree on that early R. E. M. was good and this would remind me of those days of driving down to Bristol to her student flat and um

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:38

And falling in love.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:40

Stay real close.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:44

Who might leave you?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:48

Well I left off

Rt Hon David Cameron MP29:52

Perfect circle of acquaintances and friends.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:01

Drink another

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:05

Coin afraid.

Presenter30:09

That's a Perfect Circle by R. E. M. Max Hastings, the former editor of the Daily Telegraph, came up with what I suspect a lot of Tories might feel about you. Have you come across this quote? He says it's like going for a test in a prototype aeroplane. Things could be wonderful and exciting. You just hope the bloody thing can fly.

Presenter30:28

I mean do you know do you know you can fly?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:29

Do you know do you

Presenter30:32

What

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:33

I have a clear view of what the Conservative Party should do. I've got a clear view about the big issues facing this country.

Presenter30:40

But you must have terrible dreams about failing. I mean, it's like the exam dream, isn't it? You know, I mean, suddenly being made to look a fool or...

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:43

Yeah.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:47

Of course.

Presenter30:47

Of course.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:48

You know

Rt Hon David Cameron MP30:49

It is true the first law of politics is is sort of don't screw up. But the main thing is, do you know what needs to be done? Have we got the right ideas and right values for dealing with those things? I think we have. But it's it's tough, there will be mistakes, and as you're right, there is always the risk.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP31:08

That your best won't be good enough.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP31:10

Last check on. Um this is quite up to date. This is all these things I've done by the killers and this whenever I'm tired and I've got to sort of go out and do something, this song just wakes me up and lifts me and I think, yes, off we go. And I listened to it a lot during the sort of leadership election when I was sort of thinking about the next speech or

Rt Hon David Cameron MP31:33

The next idea and um it's a great song.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP31:37

Another heartbreak on so much shoulder that I can take in my back action. Well, it comes and goes. I need direction to a

Speaker 231:52

Oh, yeah, you know you gotta help me out, yeah.

Presenter31:58

Well don't you put me on the last bud

Presenter32:02

All these things that I've done by the killers. Now, if you could only take one of those eight records, David, which one would you take?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP32:06

Very difficult. But I think it would be Tangled Up in Blue by Bob Dylan. I think I'd like the sound of the when I got lonely, the sound of the audience at the beginning and that wonderful rasping voice and guitar would probably it would remind me of all the other songs and I'd

Rt Hon David Cameron MP32:20

Sit there, sort of strumming away on the beach, I suppose.

Presenter32:23

What about your m your book as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Rt Hon David Cameron MP32:26

Well, I think I'd go for um Hugh Fernie Whittingsall's uh River Cottage cookbook. I love cooking and I think his books are brilliant and also he manages to make recipes out of make brilliant food out of whatever is available. A lot of offal. A lot of offal, you'd be e but everything from eel to uh a pig's trotter, which I tried to cook the other day and it was disgusting.

Presenter32:40

Not a morpho.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP32:49

I think it's a brilliant book and I love food. I'm very greedy and I'd sit there cooking away. And your luxury. I've had real trouble over this. I mean, I'm a very practical person, so I thought perhaps a fishing rod. And then I thought, actually, I love a little

Rt Hon David Cameron MP33:02

drink late at night, reflecting on the day, and I love drinking whisky, so I thought I'd take a crate of whisky, possibly from Jura. We go there every year. Total peace, lovely sandy beaches. So I'd sit supping away, looking out to sea, and thinking of my friends and Sam and all the people I'd been missing.

Presenter33:20

David Cameron, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP33:23

Thank you. It's been wonderful.

Rt Hon David Cameron MP33:31

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.