Boris Johnson MP

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and five, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My castaway this week is a politician and a journalist. Prone to getting into scrapes, a word that suits his rather Woodhousian image, he's one of the best known Tory MPs in the House of Commons. As editor of the weekly magazine The Spectator, he's taken it to the highest circulation in its history, while losing his job on the opposition front bench for misleading the leadership about his affair with one of his colleagues. His articles can cause dismay too. He was severely criticised for a leader accusing the people of Liverpool of wallowing in sentimentality over the murder of Ken Bigley in Iraq.

Presenter1:02

But his self deprecating humour and his often shambolic appearance conceal a cleverness and a self confidence that, for all his mishaps, might yet take him further in politics, which appears to be his ambition. He freely admits to being, and I quote, propelled by an eager mania, a desire to go on, get on, have a go. He is Boris Johnson. So if you were forced, Boris you're laughing at this quote. It is you did say it, actually.

Boris Johnson MP1:29

I suppose I must have done.

Presenter1:31

But if you had to choose between journalism and politics and you might, who knows, one day have to do so you'd choose politics, would you?

Boris Johnson MP1:38

Yes, of course, but I didn't think I'd abandon journalism.

Presenter1:40

Would have to. I mean, people have told you time and again you can't ride two horses. You've probably proved you can't ride two horses.

Boris Johnson MP1:47

I think I've successfully ridden two horses for quite a long time, but I have to admit there have been t moments when the distance between the two horses has

Boris Johnson MP1:55

Terrifyingly wide and I think it's right that me.

Presenter1:56

Split your right up the middle. Uh

Speaker 31:58

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP1:58

And I did momentarily come off, it has to be admitted.

Presenter2:01

Well, we've come back to the sensitive.

Boris Johnson MP2:02

But if you had to.

Presenter2:04

But if you had to choose, you would choose, would you, politics?

Boris Johnson MP2:08

Yes, of course, yes, yes. I always wanted to

Presenter2:09

See ya.

Boris Johnson MP2:12

do it. I knew always knew I was going to be an MP and I always knew I'd be very disappointed with myself I if I didn't do it. And I mean I didn't read Hansard a as a prepubescent, but I certainly was always interested in it.

Boris Johnson MP2:24

No, I didn't. No, no, no, I I no, I was I was William Hayes.

Presenter2:26

William Hay did.

Boris Johnson MP2:28

Yes. Well, there's nothing wrong with that. But I had, I suppose

Presenter2:29

That

Boris Johnson MP2:32

Just a a sense that this was the single most interesting job that one could do. It was the job that involved testing you to the greatest extent and it, you know, involves the broadest possible canvas.

Presenter2:43

So political ambition there is. David Cameron, were he to get the leadership, do you think he'd get you back onto the front bench?

Boris Johnson MP2:51

Well, I've no idea. I think it'd be pretty bonkers of me now to outline her.

Boris Johnson MP2:56

Joe Brown.

Presenter2:56

What do you think your area is?

Boris Johnson MP2:58

Well, I what I would love to do, the thing that I'll be like, I'll tell you, the thing I w I would love to do would be something to do with.

Boris Johnson MP3:04

Agriculture, trade, world trade.

Boris Johnson MP3:07

those problems, which I I reported on for many years in Brussels, I'm fascinated by. I would like to be involved in something like that, but, you know, hey, I I'm not gonna be you know, this is not this is not for me. Yeah, I I'll take anything.

Speaker 13:08

Try you

Presenter3:20

Did you know him?'Cause I mean, he was at Eton and Oxford what a couple of years behind you and

Boris Johnson MP3:24

Yeah, I do, I do. I did know him, I do, I remember him. He was younger than me.

Presenter3:28

Yeah.

Speaker 33:28

Uh

Boris Johnson MP3:29

One of one of the uh one of the many traumas I have to bear in my life. And so we didn't know each other that well, but I certainly knew him.

Presenter3:37

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:37

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP3:37

I haven't got a prayer of getting it, but you know have you got a

Presenter3:40

You never know. Have you got a prayer of becoming Prime Minister? Because that's what you'd really like, isn't it? You've been quite. I think people in your life have quit. It was your your ex-mother-in-law said Boris is very ambitious and always said he wanted to be Prime Minister.

Boris Johnson MP3:52

Yo, I my ex-mother-in-law is in many ways a wonderful woman.

Boris Johnson MP3:57

Did I used to say that? Maybe I did. I suppose all politicians in the end are are like kind of crazed wasps in a jam jar, each individually convinced that they're gonna make it and get out and

Boris Johnson MP4:10

survive and and of course

Boris Johnson MP4:12

I don't know, kinda got lost in my metaphor here about the wasp in the jam jar. But th the point is the point is that in a Darwinian way in a Darwinian way, the public needs politicians to want to get as far as they can, and that's how I'd

Speaker 14:15

Uh

Presenter4:15

But though

Presenter4:23

In a Darwinian way, are you fit enough to survive?

Boris Johnson MP4:23

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP4:25

Well that's probably not, but but in an evolutionary sense it's vital that everybody should have the delusion that they could.

Presenter4:34

We'll ponder on that while we listen to the Beatles. Why have you chosen The Beatles?

Boris Johnson MP4:38

Because it's just a fantastically optimistic, happy song.

Speaker 34:42

The smile's returning to the faces.

Speaker 34:49

Lolly, it seems like you since it's been here.

Speaker 34:56

Becomes the Sun.

Speaker 34:59

Here comes the sun and I say, It's alright.

Presenter5:11

Beatles and Here Comes the Sun. So politics and public service are are in the family, or they're in the genes, aren't they, Boris? Because your father, in fact, was well, he was an MEP and was going to follow his son into Parliament at the last election. Yes, he joined.

Boris Johnson MP5:24

Yes, and he jolly nearly made it. He did extremely well. And I've no doubt that there's plenty of life in him yet, and he'll he'll be back there.

Presenter5:26

Yeah.

Presenter5:30

But it goes back further than that, doesn't it? It goes back to your paternal great-grandfather, who who was in politics too, wasn't he? But in Turkey.

Boris Johnson MP5:38

My grandfather was the son of the last Interior Minister in the Sultan's Government, a man called Ali Kemal, who had the brilliant idea of signing the arrest warrant for Kemal Ataturk, the result of which was he was uh taken from a barber shop where he was having a shave one one day and uh lynched and stuck in a tree.

Presenter5:59

So if the family name is Kamal, where do you get Johnson from?

Boris Johnson MP6:02

Yeah, the family name isn't Kemal, because in Turkey they didn't have surnames, they had names and patronymics.

Presenter6:02

Uh

Boris Johnson MP6:07

But the name Johnson is in fact derived, I think, from you know one of the w one of one of the women involved.

Presenter6:13

So Granddad Osman Arley changed his name to Johnson, having got here.

Boris Johnson MP6:18

That's it. He changed his name to Johnson and grand my grandfather granddaddy became to all in you know to all every all appearances a

Boris Johnson MP6:26

English farmer.

Presenter6:27

Uh

Boris Johnson MP6:27

And he farmed in the West Country and

Presenter6:29

And did he have the blonde hair as well?

Boris Johnson MP6:31

No, he didn't, but the theory is that it comes from my great-great-grandfather's wife, who was a

Boris Johnson MP6:37

Cappadocian slave girl, whom he bought. She was a very good persistent they had for

Speaker 36:42

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP6:43

He did. He said he said, don't bother to rapper. And that she was making it. She had people. She had people on her. And that's in theory.

Presenter6:45

She was mindful of the

Presenter6:49

One more bit of history, because your your full glorious handle is Alexander Boris De Pfeffeffel Johnson. Where what's the De Preffel?

Boris Johnson MP6:49

One more bit of history'cause you

Boris Johnson MP6:57

Defeffel is a deeply pretentious name that I think derives from my

Boris Johnson MP7:03

But it's from the French side of my family's cousin.

Presenter7:05

Sounds very German, actually.

Boris Johnson MP7:06

Yeah, well it is. It's from Alsace, it's from Coma.

Boris Johnson MP7:09

It is of the Pfeffer, of the Pfeffer, of the Pfeffer.

Presenter7:13

Okay, well enough of the dynasty. Tell it, so in the end, you were brought up on the grandfathers originally the grandfather's farm in Exmoor, you said. What was it like there? Tell me about life there.

Boris Johnson MP7:15

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP7:23

Well, it was it was jolly cold, I think, is uh would be honest.

Boris Johnson MP7:27

Truth, I mean it was well it was wonderful, absolutely fantastic.

Boris Johnson MP7:31

What did we do? We used to swim in the river.

Boris Johnson MP7:33

Muck around

Presenter7:34

But why was it so cold? I mean, next morning it wasn't that cold. I you know

Boris Johnson MP7:36

It was

Boris Johnson MP7:37

Well, it was jolly cold in the winter. We didn't have central heating. We didn't even have electric light, I want you to know. It was one of those areas of the country that was not.

Presenter7:45

On the grid.

Boris Johnson MP7:46

Wired up to the grid, yeah. And we had things called telelamps and we had a generator which used to pack up, and there was a man called Turvy, who was the only man who understood how to make it work.

Presenter7:55

But life was fun. Life was fun. You were the eldest of three.

Boris Johnson MP7:57

It was wonderful.

Boris Johnson MP8:00

Yeah, well there were four of us actually. And then and then there were another two.

Presenter8:01

Form.

Boris Johnson MP8:03

as well. So, you know, there were there's no shortage of Johnson's.

Presenter8:07

Record number two.

Boris Johnson MP8:08

This is the theme tune of Test Match Special, which brings to me

Boris Johnson MP8:13

Very fond memories of playing cricket in the yard with my brothers, all of whom are better than me at cricket.

Presenter8:48

Soul Limbo by Booker T and the MG is the theme tune to Test Match special. Boris, you were a scholar at Eton and a classic scholar at Oxford. You turned down a scholarship to Harvard. I mean, you obviously.

Boris Johnson MP9:00

Well you've done incredible research yesterday.

Presenter9:01

Yes. Well, you were obviously very swatty. Were you swatty? Or was it just naturally clever?

Boris Johnson MP9:07

Well, it's a colossal swat, of course. And I urge anybody listening to this programme also to be a colossal swat. It's the only way forward.

Presenter9:13

Uh

Boris Johnson MP9:13

Bone up.

Presenter9:15

But obviously you just are one of those people who just hoovers up information. I presume you could quote vast tracts of poetry if I press the right button.

Boris Johnson MP9:23

Yeah, I probably could, I'm afraid, I'm yeah, a bit of a petri.

Boris Johnson MP9:27

Duke Box.

Presenter9:28

Hm. It's just in there, and you could just pass exams, you could just do them.

Boris Johnson MP9:32

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter9:33

I think that's isn't that what it's all about when you you know, I quoted you at the beginning as saying, you know, I want to sort of have a go, do it, see what I can do. You like testing yourself.

Boris Johnson MP9:42

Yes, I suppose so.

Boris Johnson MP9:44

Well it's very kind of you to say so but I mean I swear

Presenter9:46

Which I know a lot of people do. It's not a compliment, it's just a fact, isn't it? A lot of people don't want to be tested, but you're somebody who.

Presenter9:54

Perhaps every day likes to have a good test.

Boris Johnson MP9:58

Died.

Presenter9:58

Do yes.

Boris Johnson MP9:59

I got a lot I need got a lot of energy and I need to use it all up, I suppose.

Presenter10:04

Anyway, you kept passing the test, you became President of the Union, you know. Again, you set your sights on things and and go for it,'cause that's what keeps you going here.

Boris Johnson MP10:11

Keeps you going.

Boris Johnson MP10:12

Yes, I'd say so. It's also sort of sense that you might as well do it. There it is. What what what's the life for? Life's been everything's passing. You've got the great dandelion clock of eternity.

Boris Johnson MP10:21

You know, things are ticking away, why not?

Presenter10:23

Or that is there a bit of it that because you ought to do it, you ought to serve.

Boris Johnson MP10:27

Yes, yes, absolutely right. I know that sounds unbelievably pious and pathetic, but it is true that you

Presenter10:28

Is it

Speaker 310:29

Yeah.

Presenter10:30

Yeah.

Speaker 310:30

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP10:38

You do feel that.

Boris Johnson MP10:40

If you've had all these fantastic opportunities and you've been so lucky with education, everything.

Boris Johnson MP10:47

You've been more or less programmed, by the way, to want to have these things. My silicon chip, my ambition silicon chip, has been programmed to try to scrabble my way up this cursor's honorum, you know, this ladder of things.

Boris Johnson MP11:01

And so you do feel a kind of

Boris Johnson MP11:04

Since you got to.

Boris Johnson MP11:05

Which I think is which is I think British society is designed like that.

Boris Johnson MP11:09

Because you what we need as a society is we need all these grasping hacks and politicos to compete with each other and to advertise their wares to the public, because if they don't

Boris Johnson MP11:19

They won't be doing their job.

Boris Johnson MP11:21

Observing

Boris Johnson MP11:22

Poor music.

Boris Johnson MP11:24

Now, this is the bark. Fantastic. Want to bark? This is a fantastic piece of bark here. Now, this is a one. This is bark.

Boris Johnson MP11:31

Well A it's number one one of the number one most beautiful songs in the whole o of music, but also because it has great sentimental importance for me because I listened to it at university when I was going through mods and mods was a nightmare. Mods isn't an exam, by the way.

Boris Johnson MP11:47

And this kind of fueled me and fortified me.

Speaker 311:58

God's save is God.

Speaker 312:05

For dear good Christmas.

Speaker 312:21

When thy hands hind the lesson to rest.

Speaker 312:37

I said, Maybe it falls.

Boris Johnson MP12:49

That was very, very good. That was fantastic. I was meant to talk about falling in love, but we sensed that.

Presenter12:55

Well, you were falling in love as well as doing your mods, I think. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, okay. And that was

Boris Johnson MP12:56

But you

Boris Johnson MP12:57

Yeah, that's right.

Boris Johnson MP13:01

Bugged.

Presenter13:02

Yeah.

Presenter13:03

Spark. I can't read my own writing. Here, wait a minute. Is it here, would I stand by? What have I?

Boris Johnson MP13:08

Kie ich will here by dir steyen.

Presenter13:10

Idea steyen.

Boris Johnson MP13:11

Igvil here. I I will here stand. I will behind thee beside thee here stand.

Presenter13:16

Here Would I Stand Beside Thee, is what it is. It's from Bach St. Matthew Passion, and it was sung by the radio choir Leipzig with the Dresden State Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Peter Schreier.

Boris Johnson MP13:18

Yeah.

Presenter13:28

So you went to The Times, Boris, as a as a trainee reporter, but you lost that job really pretty quickly, didn't you?

Boris Johnson MP13:35

I lost the job. Well, the honest truth is that this has been embellished by probably by me in the sense that.

Boris Johnson MP13:43

There were two of us who were taken on as trainees, and this was in the gr the the eighties, I think it was the the late eighties, and it was him or me who was going to get at the job at the end of at the end of eight months or nine months or who it was. It was abs it was Mano Armano, and of course it was him.

Presenter13:54

BED

Presenter14:00

But Max Hastings then picked you up. Max rescued me.

Boris Johnson MP14:02

Max rescued me, absolutely. Yes, I owe a huge response.

Presenter14:05

Spotted this great talent in the making.

Boris Johnson MP14:06

I owe you

Presenter14:08

Um and and you were only twenty five, so you were really motoring. He sent you off to Brussels.

Boris Johnson MP14:12

Yes, he did. I I went to Brus I think I was twenty four. I went to Brussels and I was the Brussels correspondent for about five years, and I saw the whole thing change. It was a wonderful time to be there. Berlin Wall fell and the French and the Germans had to decide how they were going to respond to this event.

Boris Johnson MP14:28

And what was Europe going to become? And there was this fantastic pressure to

Boris Johnson MP14:32

create a single polity to create

Boris Johnson MP14:36

An answer to the historic German problem.

Boris Johnson MP14:39

and this produced the most fantastic strains in the Conservative Party.

Boris Johnson MP14:43

So everything I wrote from Brussels.

Boris Johnson MP14:46

I find was sort of I was just chucking these rocks over the garden wall. I'd listened to this an amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over over in England as e every everything I wrote from Brussels were having this amazing explosive effect. on the Tory party.

Boris Johnson MP15:04

rather weird sense of of power.

Presenter15:06

But this made your reputation as a journalist, didn't it? And you won all sorts of awards of columnist of the I mean, here, there and everywhere you were picking up all the awards. You were made, really, as a journalist, weren't you, by this experience?

Boris Johnson MP15:17

Uh y well, I suppose for us I suppose there's one way of looking at it. Yes.

Presenter15:21

Well, it's why you got the editorship of The Spectator, isn't it?

Boris Johnson MP15:23

I th I think that's more or less it.

Presenter15:25

Okay.

Boris Johnson MP15:25

I'm not going to disagree. I think that was about, actually, to be totally accurate, historically accurate, and I became editor of the Spectator about five years after I'd left Brussels, 4587.

Boris Johnson MP15:34

Oh yes, I see what you mean. Yes, yes, yes.

Boris Johnson MP15:38

I see sorry lively.

Presenter15:39

The rest.

Boris Johnson MP15:40

Go.

Presenter15:40

Oh shit.

Boris Johnson MP15:40

I think we should have sort of Gabonian essay on

Boris Johnson MP15:45

The Brussels

Presenter15:45

Come on, come on.

Presenter15:47

Tell me about this, the Rolling Stones we're going to.

Boris Johnson MP15:50

The Rolling Stones. What are we doing with the Rolling Street? Yeah, the Rolling Stones. This is fantastic. This is I'm putting they're putting this in particularly because James Dellingpole, who is a old friend of mine and

Boris Johnson MP16:00

What is he? He's the television critic of the Spectator.

Boris Johnson MP16:04

How much he despised this introduction to The Renaissance. He said it was one of the worst intros to the Renaissance. And I want you, James, if you're listening, I want you to eat your words, because this is the most fantastic, vigorous introduction to a rock song you could possibly have. It may be corny, but it's brilliant.

Speaker 316:38

Never stop.

Presenter16:50

Rolling Stones and Start Me Up. So nineteen ninety nine, um you get the editorship of The Spectator and that was the beginning of exciting but turbulent times. Anything but humdrum at fifty six Doughty Street, huh?

Boris Johnson MP17:04

Yeah, that's right. It was a wonderful Job and

Boris Johnson MP17:08

It still is a wonderful job and yeah, it's absolutely true.

Presenter17:11

Well I mean we've sort of done the praise just now. We're back to the misdemeanours.

Boris Johnson MP17:14

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP17:16

What do you mean that's a bit?

Presenter17:18

The first thing one has to say about it is that you did, as I understand it, undertake to your proprietor, Conrad Black, that you wouldn't go into politics, you would just do the journalism. But, you know, within a year you were running for Henley. I mean, that was.

Presenter17:32

What

Boris Johnson MP17:32

Oh

Presenter17:32

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP17:32

This

Presenter17:32

Donnick?

Boris Johnson MP17:36

Um what how it pretty fair to say that I didn't tell them I was going to do it.

Presenter17:41

Right.

Boris Johnson MP17:42

That'd be it.

Presenter17:43

Well, let's move on then to the the Ken Bigley affair, because in a way that because it does absolutely exemplify the dilemma that's between the journalism and the politics. I mean, there you are.

Boris Johnson MP17:50

I then

Boris Johnson MP17:52

Oh yes, good point, yes.

Boris Johnson MP17:55

There you go.

Presenter17:56

You have to decide in that moment whether you're going to toe the party line because you're a front bench spokesman or whether you're going to say what you really think. And you chose in favour of saying what you really think. In other words, you know, the p the paper won over the party. Is that fair?

Boris Johnson MP18:10

Yes, what happened was that we had a very, very vigorous editorial which made some points about the culture of sentimentality.

Boris Johnson MP18:19

I'm racking my memory now, but it was it was generated by listening to a crowd that was supposed to gi uh show a minute's silence for Ken Bigley.

Boris Johnson MP18:27

And I listen to this on the radio.

Boris Johnson MP18:29

And it was absolutely appalling because th they were meant to sh observe a minute's silence. Instead they started booing and swearing and you that's the thing had they had to give up.

Boris Johnson MP18:39

And I thought the problem there was that people were being coerced by a culture of sentimentality, as I say, into.

Boris Johnson MP18:46

Going through the motions of showing feelings they didn't really have. And that was what the editorial was meant to be all about. Did you write it?

Presenter18:50

That was

Presenter18:53

Remite.

Speaker 318:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP18:54

I take full responsibility for that editorial. I commissioned it, I edited it and I carry the can for it. And whether I whether I wrote it or not is completely immaterial, Sue, because I'm the editor. And it is well known that editors, editors, editors are responsible for whatever appears in the editorial column.

Speaker 318:57

Did you guys

Speaker 319:01

No, but you didn't know.

Speaker 319:06

Yeah.

Presenter19:06

Yeah. And he's well known that editors editors

Presenter19:11

Yeah, but it would be quite interesting to know whether you actually paid or not.

Boris Johnson MP19:13

It would be. It would be. We're not going to find that out.

Presenter19:15

We're not going to find that out.

Boris Johnson MP19:17

No. Uh but I take full responsibility. And I did. I went on this pilgrimage of penitence to Liverpool to eat not to apologise for the point about the w wallowing in victimhood and the culture of sentimentality and all that, which I don't resolve from for a minute, but of course to

Boris Johnson MP19:32

clarify, to apologise for, the factual error which was related to the number of casualties at Hillsborough, and there were people in Liverpool who were genuinely, it seemed, very upset about it.

Presenter19:43

But we just shouldn't have gone. He should just have resigned from the front bench. Do you think he should?

Boris Johnson MP19:43

Authority.

Boris Johnson MP19:47

Indeed, probably, yes, probably enough. I mean, well no, what I should have done

Boris Johnson MP19:51

What I should have done was I should have resigned from the front bench and

Boris Johnson MP19:55

Apologize for those things that we'd got wrong. That's what I should have done.

Presenter19:58

Apologize for the factual error.

Boris Johnson MP20:00

Yeah, yeah, that would have been the right thing to do. Because it was, you know, it was ridiculous. Because Puffin Else.

Boris Johnson MP20:07

The poor old Tory party well wonderful old Tory party was in the

Boris Johnson MP20:11

ghastly position of having to c uh cohere, agree with everything that was appearing.

Boris Johnson MP20:16

in the editorials of The Spectator by virtue of the fact that I was on the front bench. And that was ludicrous.

Presenter20:20

I was gonna

Presenter20:21

Which is why you can't do it. Which is why if David Cameron offers you a job you've got to give up.

Boris Johnson MP20:22

Uh

Presenter20:26

Spectator

Boris Johnson MP20:28

Which is but which may very well mean that uh I I'm I'm I'm unable to

Boris Johnson MP20:32

Did you any?

Boris Johnson MP20:34

I may may you know, it may be that. Anyway, as we said at the beginning, I think it's highly unlikely that that.

Speaker 320:36

Uh

Presenter20:36

I think

Boris Johnson MP20:40

Eventuality won't be.

Presenter20:41

But as I asked at the beginning, and you seem to be unanswering it now, if you had to choose, which one would you choose?

Boris Johnson MP20:45

Which language?

Boris Johnson MP20:48

Of course if I had to choose I would choose politics.

Presenter20:51

Look at number five.

Boris Johnson MP20:52

This is Brahm's variational theme by Haydn.

Boris Johnson MP20:54

I particularly remember it because I was...

Boris Johnson MP20:57

desperately ill as a child and

Boris Johnson MP21:01

My father came and played it endlessly on the record player when I was recovering.

Boris Johnson MP21:07

For years I didn't know what it was. It was in the wrong sleeve in the

Boris Johnson MP21:11

Yeah, in the album. What did you think it was? I thought it was. I thought it was Elgar.

Presenter21:12

What did you

Boris Johnson MP21:15

And it's not, it's um it's bronze.

Presenter22:18

That's the end of Brahm's variation on a theme by Haydn, played by the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Carion.

Presenter22:25

Well now as if you hadn't got enough on your plate, you published a novel last autumn, didn't you Seventy Two Virgins about a homegrown terrorist attack on London? It was it

Presenter22:35

Chillingly,

Boris Johnson MP22:36

Either President Uncanny, I think is the word. Four suicide bombers traveling from the north.

Boris Johnson MP22:41

And the heroine was called Cameron.

Presenter22:46

If that's true.

Boris Johnson MP22:47

Right name, wrong sex.

Presenter22:49

Yeah.

Presenter22:50

But it was weird. But even weirder, actually, we have to say it's a comic novel.

Boris Johnson MP22:52

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP22:56

It is it is meant to be a comic novel, yes, in parts, yes.

Presenter22:59

Well it is quite common. There's this chap called Roger Barlow who's sort of a a bumbling Tory MP who rides a bunch of people.

Boris Johnson MP23:05

He doesn't.

Presenter23:08

He doesn't. He crops up well I've read it.

Boris Johnson MP23:10

Have you got her incredibly kind?

Presenter23:11

And is um you know what I'm going to say next to him excessively exercised as to whether the tabloids are going to find out whether he's having an extramarital affair.

Boris Johnson MP23:20

I don't think you've read the novel with quite the attention it deserves, Suit.

Presenter23:25

I think we need to go

Boris Johnson MP23:26

We need to go back. Because otherwise I think Reed's going to come away with a wrong idea. I I'm going to insist on this point. That's not what he's worried about. What what he's done is, if you if you remember, he's invested unwisely in a

Boris Johnson MP23:41

What sort is it called lingerie, lingerie?

Presenter23:44

Marjorie.

Boris Johnson MP23:44

Right, he's invested in the

Boris Johnson MP23:47

He's invested in a music.

Presenter23:48

Well listen, we've read two different books lately.

Boris Johnson MP23:50

He's doing very well.

Boris Johnson MP23:52

I don't want to give away the dainty money. I don't want to dissuade anybody from rushing out to the bottom.

Presenter23:53

My

Presenter23:55

I read it in the summer and I can't say it's a book that quite stays with one, but I just remember this chap being rather worried about these things. And it just strikes me then, thinking about you, you know, when when

Presenter24:05

Your own extramarital activity became public. Why would he have it? It's like playing with fire. Why would you do that?

Boris Johnson MP24:13

Yeah, so I think I'm going to take the Fifth Amendment here.

Boris Johnson MP24:17

This doesn't come under the heading of just talking about Brahm's variation on a theme by Haydn.

Boris Johnson MP24:26

There's

Presenter24:39

I did actually.

Boris Johnson MP24:39

That's the stock. That's the journey. And it's still available.

Speaker 124:40

Yeah.

Presenter24:40

Uh

Presenter24:40

And it's

Presenter24:44

Just just do

Presenter24:45

Just do me the little bit of analysis, which is

Presenter24:48

Aren't you somebody who, I mean, what you like to play with fun?

Boris Johnson MP24:51

You like to play with fun. You're a brilliant interview, but in the immortal words of Sue Lawley, more music, please.

Presenter24:59

You do like playing with fire though, don't you? It's all part of the money.

Boris Johnson MP25:02

Well

Presenter25:02

Being tested.

Boris Johnson MP25:03

I see. This is your theory. I see.

Presenter25:04

Go on, just answer it and then I'll say more music.

Boris Johnson MP25:08

Well, I suppose there might be a u element of truth in that, but

Boris Johnson MP25:12

Anyway, not unnecessary risks, no.

Presenter25:16

Poor music.

Presenter25:18

Come on.

Boris Johnson MP25:19

Oh me, yeah, sorry, yeah, right.

Presenter25:19

Yeah, sorry, yeah, yeah.

Boris Johnson MP25:24

I f

Boris Johnson MP25:28

I would I want another cheery song.

Presenter25:30

Yeah.

Speaker 325:30

Yes.

Boris Johnson MP25:31

It is Brown-Eyed Girl by Van Morrison. The one thing about Van Morrison is that you can't...

Boris Johnson MP25:35

He's one that he's just you can't have too much of him, do you know what I mean? He's like, you can overdose on him a bit, but this is great.

Speaker 325:41

Hey, where did we go?

Speaker 325:44

Days when the rains came

Speaker 325:48

Dan in the hollow

Speaker 325:51

Playing a new game.

Speaker 325:54

Laughing and running

Speaker 325:57

Skipping and jumping.

Speaker 326:00

In the misty morning forward

Speaker 326:04

Ah, I hide sniffed down banana.

Speaker 326:09

Brown eye girl

Presenter26:11

It is Van Morrison and Brown Eye Girl.

Presenter26:14

I I haven't read a profile written about you, Boris, in which the the interviewer doesn't come out feeling that they've been very unfair to you.

Presenter26:24

They sort of pointed out all these misdemeanours and you sort of

Presenter26:28

batted it back, you know, but uh but but they all say they've been charmed by you, and isn't that the fact really that the the strongest weapon in your armory is charm?

Speaker 326:30

Uh

Boris Johnson MP26:30

But they all

Boris Johnson MP26:37

Well, again, I mean, it's very, very sweet of you to say this, Sue. But what are these misdemeanours you keep talking about?

Presenter26:44

Well we don't want to go back over them, Boris. I mean I've left quite a few out.

Boris Johnson MP26:49

For the benefit of o of your listeners, I think.

Presenter26:50

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP26:51

There are far fewer misdemeanours than there are demeanours, or whatever.

Presenter26:55

Mishaps, I think. We've got mishaps. But what I want to know is whether the charm.

Presenter27:01

Whether it's sort of all a bit of a ruse, or you or maybe you've always used it as a bit of a ruse, you know, to sort of get you by.

Boris Johnson MP27:09

I suppose that'd be the best. I I was very deaf as a child.

Boris Johnson MP27:13

And

Boris Johnson MP27:15

I attribute I used to have grommets. You know what I mean by grommets?

Presenter27:18

Yes, they do. That's a little drain.

Boris Johnson MP27:19

I was a terrible glue ear, and I could basically hardly hear anything anybody was saying. And I think I must have developed then a certain sort of evasiveness.

Boris Johnson MP27:28

Because often really I couldn't follow what was going on at all.

Boris Johnson MP27:31

Yeah.

Boris Johnson MP27:33

If you can sort of guess what's going on, but you're not quite sure, it's often as well to be a little bit vague.

Presenter27:40

Yes, but you are at the same time a comic institution and you you you cultivate that image, whether it's'cause you go on Have I Got News for you, or wherever you crop up. I mean, you are highly entertaining. And I suppose what I'm asking is a question you can't answer, which is whether you do that in a calculated way, or whether that's just Boris.

Boris Johnson MP28:01

Yeah, I think the profound truth of the matter is that

Boris Johnson MP28:05

It would be very, very hard to do it any other way.

Boris Johnson MP28:09

I think if I made a huge effort

Boris Johnson MP28:11

Always to have a snappy, inspiring sound bite.

Boris Johnson MP28:15

On my lips. I think the sheer mental strain of that would be such that I would explode and.

Boris Johnson MP28:22

I think it's much easier, therefore, for me to try to

Boris Johnson MP28:26

Yeah, play what shots I have as freely as I can.

Boris Johnson MP28:29

Does that make sense?

Presenter28:30

Yes, it does. But of course what happens is maybe the really

Presenter28:34

Clever and thoughtful Boris gets lost and people forget he's there. That's that's the danger, isn't it?

Boris Johnson MP28:40

Yeah, well we need to we need to go and find him. We need to go cheeky map where he is looking now.

Presenter28:47

Does he crop up my door?

Boris Johnson MP28:48

He does.

Presenter28:49

He does.

Boris Johnson MP28:50

Yeah, yeah, he's in there.

Presenter28:50

He's in there.

Presenter28:54

Echo number seven.

Boris Johnson MP28:56

Right, ah this is fantastic. It is The Clash pressure drop and the great thing about The Clash of course was apart from the else Joe Strummer was towards the end an avid telegraph reader and it was the highest moment in my journalistic career when Joe Strummer actually sent me a letter saying how much he admired a column I'd written about hunting funnily enough and he was a fantastic man, a great hero of mine, a good poet as well as a fantastic rock musician.

Speaker 329:23

I said a fresh with my oh, fresh a boo, fresh on the top of you

Speaker 329:30

Feel to buy oh, friends, oh, friends

Speaker 329:34

So you are

Presenter29:52

That was a clash and pressure drop. So finally, Boris Johnson, alone on a desert island. Give me the picture. How will you be?

Boris Johnson MP30:00

I think I would have a very disciplined approach to trying to rebuild civilization as fast and as quickly as I could. So I think I would set myself a programme.

Boris Johnson MP30:08

of survival and reconstruction.

Presenter30:12

You're good at all of that, are you?

Boris Johnson MP30:14

I like making things with wood.

Boris Johnson MP30:16

I've just made a tree house, for instance.

Boris Johnson MP30:18

For the children.

Boris Johnson MP30:20

Not an issue.

Boris Johnson MP30:21

That much interested is

Presenter30:23

But you know, I like it very much.

Boris Johnson MP30:23

I like it very much. They are, and they're very keen on it. And could you make.

Presenter30:27

And could you make yourself laugh, Boris? I mean, w you know.

Boris Johnson MP30:30

Yes, I think I think I'd try to cheer myself up. Yes, I think I suppose what I'd do I'd sing sing a few hymns and

Boris Johnson MP30:37

Martin Dan

Boris Johnson MP30:38

No, what what are you supposed to uh? And I I I think it might be quite interesting. What I would try to do, of course, is to write.

Boris Johnson MP30:45

And

Boris Johnson MP30:46

get hold of whatever papyrus I could.

Boris Johnson MP30:49

Mashed all together.

Presenter30:50

And what would you write about?

Presenter30:52

when you've done your papyrus mixture.

Boris Johnson MP30:55

I think I'd probably try and get down

Boris Johnson MP30:57

You know, get to the heart of things.

Presenter30:59

And get to the heart of things. That's an interesting phrase. What does that mean?

Boris Johnson MP31:03

I don't know. It sounds rather pretentious now you mention it. I want to keep some sort of record of what it was all like and

Presenter31:09

Yes, but you can write more than a diary. I mean, you're writing some kind of political treatise at the moment, aren't you? Or something.

Boris Johnson MP31:15

Yes, I am. Oh, yes, I am. I am. I am. I am I am. It's very

Boris Johnson MP31:19

A huge thesis about.

Boris Johnson MP31:21

the meaning of nationhood, etcetera, etcetera.

Boris Johnson MP31:23

Uh which is slightly knocking my brains out.

Presenter31:25

So that's where the serious Boris is, is it? That's that's you know, the one who comes out to play on occasions like this is just, you know, the one that's offered to the public, but the serious one is beavering away at the desk. Getting more enjoyment out of doing that than doing this public bit?

Boris Johnson MP31:42

Yes, I get as much enjoyment out of that as as as anything. I I've been getting up incredibly early in the morning to write.

Boris Johnson MP31:48

A book about how the Romans ran Europe.

Boris Johnson MP31:51

Which is going to be a sensational

Boris Johnson MP31:55

expose of that subject.

Boris Johnson MP31:57

And I do get terrific pleasure from it.

Boris Johnson MP32:00

But

Boris Johnson MP32:01

I suppose the terror would be in this desert island, that I wouldn't have my books and I wouldn't have any access to data.

Boris Johnson MP32:08

So I suppose I'd have to start downloading my brain as quickly as possible.

Boris Johnson MP32:12

That's what I do. I think obsessively. I'd I'd make the papyrus, I'd crush the beetles, make the ink.

Boris Johnson MP32:18

I'd download all the poetry.

Boris Johnson MP32:20

All the history.

Boris Johnson MP32:22

Everything I've got.

Boris Johnson MP32:23

And then when I had it in library form,

Boris Johnson MP32:27

I'd start to plagiarize it.

Boris Johnson MP32:30

And make something else. That's what I do.

Boris Johnson MP32:34

Brilliant.

Presenter32:35

Last record.

Boris Johnson MP32:37

This is

Boris Johnson MP32:39

Beethoven?

Boris Johnson MP32:41

Which

Boris Johnson MP32:42

I think EM Forster described as elephants walking on the roof of the world.

Boris Johnson MP32:45

And

Boris Johnson MP32:46

It is very very good noise to have in your car when you're driving fast along some autobahn.

Boris Johnson MP32:54

I remember I once did this and it's it's a sensational thing to do.

Presenter33:55

Now's the opening and the last movement of Beethoven's fifth play by the New York Philharmonic, conducted by Leonard Bernstein. If you could only take one of those eight records, Boris, which one would you take?

Boris Johnson MP34:05

Man.

Boris Johnson MP34:07

Broms.

Boris Johnson MP34:09

Provided I can have all the variations.

Presenter34:11

Well, yes, you probably would really. Okay. There we are. So it's Brahm's variation on the theme by Heidegger. And what about a book? We give you the Bible and we give you the complete works of Shakespeare.

Boris Johnson MP34:16

I would, yeah.

Boris Johnson MP34:18

Give you the b

Boris Johnson MP34:20

Right. Well, I'd need something I'd need something in a foreign language that I could devote my mind to translating back into English, and I think I'd take Homer, just'cause it's the beginning. Also, it's very, very long.

Boris Johnson MP34:33

Now I reckon I couldn't

Boris Johnson MP34:34

Use up a few decades quietly translating that.

Speaker 134:38

Yeah.

Presenter34:38

And a luxury.

Boris Johnson MP34:39

Does it does it do a lot of people take mustard with them?

Presenter34:42

I can't think of anybody who's taken muscle.

Boris Johnson MP34:44

Well, I think mustard would be ideal. I what I read like is a very big pot of that French seedy mustard. That's it.

Presenter34:55

That's it.

Boris Johnson MP34:56

But a a huge supersonic supersized uh French pot of clay pot full. Yeah. Any kind of meat is more or less bearable with mustard, so I'd I'd want to have that along.

Presenter35:00

Sort of clay pot full.

Presenter35:06

Boris Johnson, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Speaker 135:18

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio forward.