Ralph Kohn

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and four, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a singer. He's also a scientist, a highly successful business man, a multi-millionaire, and a philanthropist. He was born in Leipzig into an affluent, cultured Jewish family that fled from the Nazis first to Holland and then, after a terrifying sea crossing, to Manchester. Although a passionate musician, he studied pharmacology and eventually set up his own pharmaceutical business. But all the time he nurtured his love of music and singing, studying with eminent teachers, recording and performing. Today, aged seventy-six, he can claim to have sung in all of London's major concert halls, and he's still giving recitals. His voice, he says, is better than ever because he hasn't overused it. I didn't know if I was good enough to get to the top of the tree in music, he says. I thought that medicine looked like a safer bet. He is Dr Ralph Cohn. In fact, in the end, you could say, Ralph, that you've had it both ways. You've had a double life, haven't you?

Ralph Kohn1:30

Yes, you you might say so. The trouble is I've I I've enjoyed all the things I've done so much I couldn't sort of give anything up. I thought I I'd like to study medicine, but at the same time I passionately loved music, and I wanted to do something in music too.

Presenter1:48

But which was your first love, which is your first love?

Ralph Kohn1:52

My first love. I think it's very difficult to answer that one.

Presenter1:58

Scott Myt.

Ralph Kohn1:58

Well, I think that I need both to lead a full life, and I can't think of one without the other, really.

Presenter2:07

But knowing what you know now, which is that you have got a wonderful and distinctive voice, that you can fill a concert hall with this wonderful baritone instrument that you have, do you wish that you'd had the courage of your passion for music and actually followed that rather as seriously as you have the science?

Ralph Kohn2:26

I think we've got to go back to my early childhood, which uh was a a rather difficult one. I was born in Germany. We uh had the um problem uh there with the rise of Hitler uh to power and consequently we had to leave Germany. We were refugees, uh went to Holland first.

Ralph Kohn2:49

left Holland during the war to come to England. So it seemed to me that if I were to have a profession which looked fairly secure, that at long last I could perhaps settle down and do that, rather than go for a life in music with all the problems that that might involve. Yes, I think the security aspect was very important. I didn't want to take too many risks and I decided to play it safe or as safe as you can in life.

Presenter3:21

Tell me about your first record.

Ralph Kohn3:23

Well, I'd like very much to hear Jehudi Menuen playing the beginning of the second movement of Mendelssohn's violin concerto. Jehudi Menuen came into my life in the thirties when we lived in Amsterdam. Those were very difficult years. We arrived in Amsterdam from Leipzig and of course the terrible anti-Semitic campaign that Hitler waged. And we felt in an extremely unloved position all round. And here was this genius of a young boy, Yehudi Menuen, with the name Yehudi, meaning Jew in Hebrew, going round the world playing his magic violin and we were all so proud and we were all thinking, well, in spite of everything that's being said about us, just look, here is someone who plays like an angel and there was great pride we all had and I think it'd be nice to be reminded of all this.

Presenter5:22

That was the opening of the second movement of Mendelssohn's violin concerto in E minor, played by Yehudi Menouin, and the orchestra Cologne, conducted by Georges Inesco, and that was recorded in nineteen thirty eight, which of course was a terrible year in Germany.

Ralph Kohn5:36

It was indeed it was the year of the Kristallnacht when all the synagogues were put on fire and largely destroyed a situation when every the whole world knew what the regime was capable of doing.

Presenter5:52

But your family had left Leipzig in nineteen thirty three. Your father had decided that you should up and off. That was quite far sighted of him, really, wasn't it? Because the the restrictions on the Jews were some few years away, anyway.

Ralph Kohn6:06

Absolutely. He felt the atmosphere was just bad and he could see that things were going to go from bad to worse.

Presenter6:16

So what did the family do? Did you'cause you had a very large house in the centre of town, didn't you? And you had governesses and tutors and it was a well-heeled life you led, wasn't it?

Ralph Kohn6:19

Uh

Ralph Kohn6:24

It's also

Ralph Kohn6:25

Yes, it it was, and therefore I think it was with tremendous courage that my father decided uh we must leave as soon as we possibly can.

Presenter6:35

But did he shut it all up and hope that you'd come back? Was that the thought?

Ralph Kohn6:40

Not really. I've never actually heard my father say this is just a temporary measure. To me there was an air of finality about that. There was a lot of unrest and there was a lot of uh latent anti-Semitism, which of course then got its proper voice with the rise of of Hitler.

Speaker 16:46

Yeah.

Presenter6:46

Jump

Speaker 16:46

Be a

Presenter6:59

One hit plug.

Ralph Kohn7:00

But

Presenter7:00

But how much did the family leave behind is really what I'm asking. I mean, it was a huge sacrifice when your father took that decision.

Ralph Kohn7:06

And

Ralph Kohn7:07

We actually were able in thirty three to take our furniture with us. And I I do remember that when we went to Amsterdam, we were able to live in under very reasonable circumstances. Whether there were restrictions on taking money out or so, I really wouldn't know because I was

Presenter7:24

No, because

Ralph Kohn7:26

What about four years old? So I I wouldn't uh remember that at all.

Presenter7:27

Mm-hmm.

Presenter7:31

But what you did take with you, of course, was your love of music. Even as a small boy, and you were four or five when you left, you you'd already been open to hearing lots and lots of music, hadn't you?

Ralph Kohn7:35

That's

Ralph Kohn7:41

That's right. And again, I had that from my father. M we come from a very orthodox Jewish background. And synagogue going, of course, the the Sabbath was kept very strictly, the dietary laws and all that. That was really sort of something which we kept with devotion. And my first sounds perhaps were the Hebrew and Yiddish which which I heard in the house and in synagogue.

Ralph Kohn8:09

And perhaps we could illustrate this with a Yiddish song called Lachaim to your health. Cheers. Cheers, absolutely. And it's sung by Misha Alexandrovich, a cantor and opera singer who lived in Moscow. And I believe actually that Stalin loved him whilst he was there.

Speaker 48:36

Agleselchaimit Nemenheim, then Menzitz Bahayunter dignit Agles lechaim far frein chaftung farfrein, men sondar seinfrich. Agles lechaim far out on jung wasn't for yedern pasunder wosainen hein mituns nito.

Presenter9:05

The Chaim to Your Health, sung by Misha Alexandrovich, accompanied by a klezma ensemble, a company of Hebrew musicians. So, Ralph Kohn, you lived in Amsterdam for seven years, beyond the outbreak of war, into 1940, until it was heard that the Nazis were marching in. You only got out in the nick of time, didn't you? You were twelve years old. You must remember it quite clearly.

Ralph Kohn9:27

We actually left Amsterdam on the day itself when Amsterdam was occupied by the Germans, fourteenth of may, nineteen forty. We were desperate to leave, and that was the occasion when we literally left the house.

Ralph Kohn9:46

Close the door.

Ralph Kohn9:48

were unable to take anything with us and went to Eymouden, which is the harbour of Amsterdam, about thirty miles away, and managed to get on a boat which left in the evening of the fourteenth of May.

Presenter10:03

And then you got on the boat, but you still weren't safe, were you?

Ralph Kohn10:07

Well, we we were shot at in two different ways. We had problems getting through to Eymouden because of uh snipers and parachutists uh who had been landed by the by the Germans and then uh we were also machine gunned by German planes, but luckily there were no bombs on

Ralph Kohn10:26

They had they they had already done their worst, so consequently we escaped. I'm sure we would have ended up at the bottom of the sea had there been uh bombs sort of still left.

Presenter10:35

Um

Ralph Kohn10:37

Yeah.

Presenter10:37

How long were you at sea?

Ralph Kohn10:38

Seven days.

Presenter10:39

Conditions on board must have deteriorated fast.

Ralph Kohn10:42

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there was very little to eat. I think we were just uh in in the end we had uh I think tea and uh dry bread and that that was about it. And uh

Speaker 410:54

Yeah.

Ralph Kohn10:56

I do recall when finally we arrived in Liverpool and were allowed to disembark that it was a very, very great relief.

Presenter11:04

Record number three.

Ralph Kohn11:05

The next recording I'd like to hear brings back memories of my years in Manchester. After we landed in Liverpool, we ended up in Manchester, where I spent the next fourteen years of my life until nineteen fifty four. I loved the the Halley Orchestra, which of course was the the orchestra resident in Manchester. I also at the time became very, very fond of English music, particularly Elgar, and I would love to hear Janet Baker sing one of the Elgar Sea Pictures.

Speaker 411:48

Lips are like a sunset gloom

Speaker 411:55

My smile is like a warning score

Speaker 412:06

Let leave me, leave me, let me go and see a land where corals lie.

Presenter12:41

Where Corals Lie from Elgar's Sea Picture, sung by Janet Baker with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbarolly. So you settled in Manchester, Ralph Cohn, without a suitcase of clothes between you, but at least you were safe and you met with kindness and people were incredibly helpful to you. How many of the Cohn family did you leave behind in Germany, and how many did you never see again?

Ralph Kohn13:06

Well, we left uh behind um quite a few uh cousins. A lot of people didn't come out in time. They still thought things were going to change in Germany and then there came a point at which it was too late. And uh I think some of our family really decided too late they wanted to get out and weren't able to get to any place.

Presenter13:32

Hmm.

Presenter13:33

So in Manchester, your father set up in business again in textiles. He never quite got back to his former wealth, but he certainly did a decent job, did he not?

Ralph Kohn13:42

Well, I think we lived modestly.

Presenter13:45

Goodbye.

Ralph Kohn13:45

Modestly.

Presenter13:46

And you went to Salford Grammar School. You went on to Manchester University, where you chose to study pharmacology. Now, why did you choose that?

Presenter14:23

And indeed you were. And you went on to write a prize-winning thesis, didn't you? What was the subject of that?

Ralph Kohn14:28

My thesis well, that was a sensitization phenomenon relating to histamine, how animals became hypersensitive to histamine on being injected with a Pertussis, Haemophilus Pertussis vaccine, which in simple language is a hooping cough.

Presenter14:43

Poop becomes

Presenter14:46

But uh

Presenter14:48

So so did it help towards the development of the vaccine for hooping?

Ralph Kohn14:48

So so did

Ralph Kohn14:51

Well, it helped in the standardization of vaccines. But I must say, you know, this happened so many years ago, I don't know whether any of this is still of the slightest possible value. Of course we're going we're going back a few years.

Presenter15:05

Yes, but it certainly got you somewhere at the time, didn't it? You went off then on on a fellowship to Italy. You went to work with two Nobel Prize winners.

Ralph Kohn15:10

You went

Ralph Kohn15:13

Indeed, indeed. But Susan, if I could just interject there's something which was so dramatic to me as a young man, in fact which perhaps is worth telling you. When I was about to submit my PhD, my supervisor knocked at my lab's door one day and he said, Cohn, I'm going to give the Wright Fleming lecture at St Mary's Hospital this year. Will you prepare some tables for me, some graphs, and would you write up this and that? Because I want to present your thesis to this gathering. And then I went down to London at the invitation of my chief. He said, Yo, you must come and listen to my lecture. And after that, there was a

Presenter15:15

Who would they?

Ralph Kohn15:58

Cocktail party in Flemings. Room and I shook the great man's hand. Well, can you imagine?

Ralph Kohn16:09

Uh

Presenter16:09

Record number four.

Ralph Kohn16:10

Well, the next record, if you can bear it, is one which I recorded as a result of my s starting to study singing in Rome. If you sang, the first thing in Italy which they would teach you would be the Belcanto style of singing. And uh it's a very early song, a sort of uh early seventeenth century song called Se bell Rio, and um perhaps you could put that on.

Speaker 416:52

Sikera vasula rena skirzia peraudice.

Speaker 417:12

Se germaitrafior vermili, cet vagil, vester alba naurio fero.

Speaker 417:26

Esuroted safiro, mauvoengiro, moiditiangeri dil chero.

Presenter17:39

Say Bel Rio, if a beautiful brook by Raffaello Rontani, sung by my castaway Ralph Cohn, and members of the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Anthony Halstead. And that was on the first album you ever recorded, Ralph, and you'd have been round about sixty when you recorded that. But in Italy, as a young man in your mid-twenties, you studied Belcanto, as you say, beautiful, effortless, shapely singing with a top-flight teacher, yes?

Ralph Kohn18:07

Absolutely, a man called Marcantoni, who was recommended by Gigli. Gigli was very good in listening to young people, and particularly after his retirement from the operatic stage, and he would almost always suggest that additional training is required, and Manlio Marcantoni was the man he would send you to. After I'd studied for three years in Rome with Marc Antoni, I was about to go off to New York on another fellowship. And before doing so, I said to Marc Antoni one day, Look, I really must meet Gigli. He's such a great singer, and isn't there a chance to meet this man?

Ralph Kohn18:56

I said, well, you know.

Ralph Kohn18:58

I'm working at this Istituto Superiore di Sanita, which is the medical research institute in Rome, which was outstandingly good. It had one Nobel laureate, Sir Ernst Chain, and another man called Daniel Beauvais, who got the Nobel Prize in nineteen fifty seven, and I worked with both of them. The work I did with Chain involved intermediate metabolism of carbohydrates, glycogen synthesis, mechanism of action of insulin and so forth. And I knew that G Lee was in heart failure and was a severe diabetic.

Ralph Kohn19:33

Marcantoni fell for this and he said, Right, I'm going to try and organize it. And he did. So I spent a fantastic afternoon at Gilli's home in Rome. He had a magnificent palatial home. And then after he told me about all his ailments and medical problems, then he turned around and said, Would you like to sing something for me? And of course I was hoping he might say that. So what did you sing? I brought the aria Bella Sico Monangelo from Dom Pasquale. It's Malatestas Aria. And he showed me, well, you know, you've got to do this and that and the other. Then he gave me a picture of himself, and he said to Ralph Cohn, with all best wishes, and he even gave me a testimonial, in which he said, Do carry on, because if you persist, then you will perhaps get somewhere someday.

Presenter20:28

Yeah.

Ralph Kohn20:28

No no no.

Presenter20:29

So you have to take Gilie with you, no doubt about that, to your desert island.

Ralph Kohn20:33

Yes, I think we have to play. And if we could perhaps listen to Gigli singing the Cavaradosi area, and of course it's very relevant to Rome because all three acts take place in Rome. You've got the Church of Sant'Andrea della Valle, where the first act takes place, then you've got Palazzo Farnese, the second act, and you've got the Castel Sant'Angelo, where the execution takes place.

Presenter20:58

And that's where we're going now.

Ralph Kohn20:59

And that's where we're going now. We're going to hear the execution.

Speaker 421:26

Then look onless them.

Speaker 421:47

Compostos dioramore.

Speaker 421:57

Brahma Lafarada Brahma.

Presenter22:01

Ben Yamino Gilias Cavaradossi in the last act of Tosca there, of Puccini's Tosca, El Lucevan L'Estelle, and the Stars Were Shining, with the orchestra of La Scala Milan conducted by Franco Gione, and that was recorded in nineteen thirty four.

Presenter22:17

You, Ralph Cohn, crossed in the meantime from academia, you'd gone on from Italy to New York, still actually having a singing lesson. I think you had a a a teacher from the Met in New York. But eventually you crossed over into the the business world, got a big job with uh SmithKline as a kind of roving ideas scout, looking for drugs that they could develop. I mean are there any drugs that we would have heard of that you were responsible for spotting and developing?

Presenter22:44

Give me give me a couple of drugs that you wouldn't have

Presenter22:57

What do they treat then? What would what would that be used to treat?

Ralph Kohn23:00

Infectious diseases.

Presenter23:01

Oopsie.

Ralph Kohn23:01

For infections. And so there are many, many instances where actually a company will have obtained a drug from another company. But for example, if you go to America, marketing a drug in America is a very expensive exercise. And let's say a

Ralph Kohn23:24

modest sized European company has developed a new drug. They haven't got a subsidiary in the United States. How are they going to get to the American market? It's only

Speaker 123:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Ralph Kohn23:36

through a licensing arrangement, through a tie-up with a company that's able to handle this on their behalf. And this is the sort of thing in which I've been involved quite a bit.

Presenter23:48

But the clever the clever thing you did when you were, I think, just uh into your forties, you decided that you could do all of this on your own account. You set up your own business and offered a testing service to the big companies. That must have been one of the best decisions you ever made, wasn't it?

Ralph Kohn24:02

Yes, I think it was also one of the bravest and most courageous ones, Sue. I mean, don't forget, I had a wife and two small children, and to give up I mean, I was head of a department in one company and then I was managing director for another company with a very sizable income. And to give that up and decide I am going to start something on my own did require a certain amount of risk taking, which

Presenter24:28

Did

Presenter24:32

And of course, it's been hugely successful. I mean, you've won Queen's Awards for Export and so on. And importantly, you've made yourself and your family very comfortable and you've been able to give to give to others, haven't you? And give to your first love.

Ralph Kohn24:42

Give to others.

Presenter24:45

The World of Music.

Ralph Kohn24:47

Yeah.

Presenter24:47

Uh

Ralph Kohn24:47

Yes.

Presenter24:48

Yeah.

Ralph Kohn24:48

Yeah.

Presenter24:48

Tell me about your next record.

Ralph Kohn24:50

Well, I'd like very much to to hear some bach at this point.

Ralph Kohn24:55

Bach isn't only cantatas, church cantatas and m B minor mass, St. John's and St. Matthew's Christmas oratorio, but there is a lighter side to Bach too, the Bach of some of the cantatas, and I thought perhaps we might listen to a little bit of the coffee cantata with an aria called Hatman nicht mit seinen kindan.

Speaker 425:19

Fossi Shimma Alle Tag, Meino Toftalisenzag, be it all for for by Tafsi Shimma Alletag Meinotoftal

Speaker 125:39

Oh no.

Presenter26:18

Hatmann nicht mitz zeinen kindelen, don't we have so many thousands of troubles with our children from Bach's Coffee Cantata, sung by my castaway Ralph Cohn with the English Chamber Orchestra, conducted by Ian Watson. We were just working it out that you were about sixty-eight when you recorded that. I mean, I have to say, and I think anyone would say you certainly don't sound it. You've said more than that, that you've said that your voice is still virginal. What do you mean by that?

Ralph Kohn26:44

Well, I haven't sang uh in the way perhaps a professional singer would. I mean, I could only appear certain times, certain occasions.

Presenter26:54

So you could never have done opera. You couldn't do anything that involved lots of other people.

Ralph Kohn26:56

Speaking that involved lots of other people. Precisely. What I could do was what I could regulate myself. In other words, singing the leader repertoire. Occasionally I'd appear with orchestra and so forth, but those had to be carefully organized. I couldn't do this on a large scale. And I think, in a way, this has enabled me to do it in my own time, my own speed, and not exhaust myself and perhaps even ruin my health in the process.

Speaker 427:14

Mm.

Presenter27:29

But it still must have taken great courage, because if we pick up our theme again of your double life, because you had to get solidly based first of all financially and established and so on, you couldn't walk onto a stage and sing, as it were, until you were really

Speaker 427:45

Well

Presenter27:47

Getting on a bit. I think you were late thirties when you made your debut at the Wigmore Hall.

Speaker 427:49

It is where

Speaker 427:51

Try.

Presenter27:52

Great courage that must take because you have to your own belief in your own talent must be very strong because it's a it's quite exposing to do that, isn't it?

Speaker 427:52

Great car

Ralph Kohn28:01

Yes, uh you're you're right, Sue. But beyond belief uh in yourself, I think you must have a great passion, a great love for something.

Ralph Kohn28:10

And I th I really do believe that whatever I do in life I do with great passion and great conviction and energy and enthusiasm, even if I don't succeed. But I look at something, and if I'm going to do it,

Ralph Kohn28:26

Then I will put everything into it. That is an obsession which I still have.

Presenter28:34

Yeah.

Ralph Kohn28:34

Well um uh I we we were just talking about uh what I was capable of doing within

Presenter28:34

Well

Ralph Kohn28:42

limited amount of time, uh which meant that I could concentrate on the Lieb Lieder repertoire, uh meaning of course the songs and song cycles by Schubert, Schumann, Beethoven, and I was extremely fortunate in really always working with

Ralph Kohn29:02

First class people

Presenter29:03

The best. You have had the best.

Ralph Kohn29:04

The best, absolutely the best. And I'd like to to listen to someone I also regard as the best, uh, Lichardaubo.

Speaker 429:22

By the niche heavy goes.

Speaker 429:32

Holy graph

Speaker 429:36

Uh

Speaker 429:45

Uh

Speaker 430:05

He's a lion room.

Presenter30:06

You're lying.

Speaker 130:07

Uh

Presenter30:11

Do Lijstmir imherzen You Are in My Thought, sung by Richard Tauber, accompanied by Misha Spolianski, and that was recorded in nineteen twenty six. Um you've been very generous to causes, medical and musical, Ralph, because you earned yourself, as we've heard, the position in which you could do that.

Presenter30:30

Um the question that always comes to mind on these occasions when one hears stories like yours is why is it, can you explain it that

Presenter30:40

Quite often people who came here with nothing

Presenter30:44

Have gone on to achieve preeminence in their field. Can you explain that?

Ralph Kohn30:48

I I think perhaps um

Ralph Kohn30:52

If you come as we did, um, as refugees with nothing, you have the urge to succeed.

Ralph Kohn31:01

I think we've always got we refugees you know, we've always got the feeling, well, uh, you know, maybe uh although life has been difficult at times yet

Ralph Kohn31:12

One has been successful and uh uh

Presenter31:16

But you don't take it for granted, is what you're saying. You're not complacent.

Ralph Kohn31:17

But you're not taking it. No, you're not complacent. And you keep on.

Presenter31:22

So slight fear there that it might disappear if I go

Ralph Kohn31:24

It might disappear perhaps, and it isn't the financial side at all, but it's just that you you want to feel that what you have achieved you want to enlarge upon and yes, you you do feel a bit sort of uh driven in life. I I I do feel even today that there are many things I've still got to do.

Presenter31:28

Yeah.

Ralph Kohn31:45

Before I hang up my hat or whatever.

Presenter31:49

Well, you've got to go to a desert island first. Um I just wonder if if that kind of determination in adversity that we're talking about isn't going to get you off there, P D Q.

Ralph Kohn31:59

Well, i it depends. I mean, uh w what what it's what I find on the desert island. Who knows, it might be an earthly paradise. But well, obviously, I think i if one were to be left on a desert island lonely, deserted, yes, one would try and see well now this is not the sort of existence I can sort of put up with indefinitely. And one would start thinking how could one perhaps, as you say, get off it. But I think one would just have to see

Ralph Kohn32:33

if an opportunity were to arise and if there were some means of of achieving that.

Ralph Kohn32:39

Well, my last record, perhaps for that, we're coming back to my great love of Bach, and perhaps we could hear a little of the part of the sinfonia from the Christmas oratorio. Now, that brings back certain memories. Some years ago, I was very closely involved with John Eliot Gardner, who had a wonderful idea to perform all the Bach sacred church cantatas, all 198 of them, in the millennium year. It was a memorable occasion.

Presenter32:39

Well

Presenter34:19

Part of the Sinfonia from Bach's Christmas Oratoria played by the English Baroque soloists conducted by John Elliott Gardner.

Presenter34:27

Now, Ralph, if you could only take one of those eight records to your island, which one would you take?

Ralph Kohn34:32

I think I'll settle for the Christmas oratorio.

Presenter34:35

Gotta be Bach, hasn't it?

Ralph Kohn34:35

It's got to be.

Presenter34:37

Now what about your book? What would you like to take with you?

Ralph Kohn34:40

Well, I'm fortunate in possessing the complete works of Bach, and uh in fact I've got Mahler's copy, which he annotated in different places, and there are about fifty volumes of them, thick volumes. Now, so far I I really haven't had a chance to do much about it, but uh I think I'll have a bit of time on on the island, so may I have those to take along?

Presenter35:02

Uh

Presenter35:06

Indeed, and your luxury. What would you take?

Ralph Kohn35:07

Well, I'd like a flute, if I may, but a very special flute, a magic flute. And if I might explain that briefly to you, my first opera I heard in Salzburg in nineteen fifty one, the Zauber flute, the magic flute, with Voltwengler conducting. Now, when Papagheno in the last act uses this magic flute

Ralph Kohn35:32

He conjures up

Ralph Kohn35:34

Papagena.

Ralph Kohn35:36

And there she is and his great love in life. So I'm hoping that if you allow me this particular magic flute, that when I play it I might sort of conjure up my Papagena in the form of my wife, and if that happens, then I think all my problems will be solved on the island.

Presenter35:56

Ralph Koh, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 136:06

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.