Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and four, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Cosway this week is a grocer. It's a description which sounds rather inadequate for someone who's one of Britain's richest men, a Labour peer and a junior minister who was educated at Eton and Cambridge. He comes from a dynasty of grocers, a family that combines commercial acumen with a strong sense of duty. He joined the business straight out of university, became its financial director at the age of thirty-three, and eventually succeeded to the top job when his cousin vacated it. He gave it up to go into government as science minister. He's given millions of pounds to technical education and mental health research and to the Labour Party. I think I'm a romantic person, he says, in the sense that I believe you can change things. He is David Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury of Turville. It was a a brave move, David, to go from uh running one of the biggest companies in the land, Sainsbury's, to being a a junior minister in the sort of

Presenter1:23

Cumbersome machinery of government. What made you do it?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury1:27

Well, I think it was actually one of the rather easy decisions of my life because, um

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury1:32

Really from my earliest days in business I'd been interested in politics and had a great long-term interest in science. So the opportunity to be science minister was one that was you know that was a dream coming true. You jumped at it. Yes, that was a very easy decision to make.

Presenter1:46

You jumped at it.

Presenter1:49

But people nevertheless would look at it and think it's a very strange decision. You certainly wouldn't have done it for the money. I mean, obviously you don't need the money, but I don't think you take any money, do you?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury1:57

No, I don't have any salary, so I don't think that can be a consideration.

Presenter2:00

What about the hours? How do the hours compare?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury2:03

Well, the hours are appalling. I mean the the quality of life is is dismal. But if you can change things, you can change things on a scale that you can't do as a private citizen. You can make a difference. It is exciting.

Presenter2:13

Hmm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury2:16

And um

Presenter2:17

It makes you sound very altruistic, this. Is that absolutely the right word for you?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury2:21

I don't think that's totally right, because actually I think making a difference and getting change and doing things is actually very rewarding. In that sense, you can make a difference.

Presenter2:31

Hmm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury2:31

Is enormously important. You have to have the motivation. You have to think, well, this is really important stuff.

Presenter2:36

But you must miss the excitement of big business, surely, you know, that walking in every morning and seeing yesterday's figures immediately there, being able to take instant action and getting an instant result, as it were, which is something you can never do in government, which as I say is comfortable.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury2:51

No, I miss the fact that all my life I've walked into the office in the morning and as you say you you in Sainsbury's you had on your desk the takings of the previous day, how that compared with the previous year, the previous week, everything. And of course in government you don't have that kind of instantaneous performance measurement, which is one of the funds of retailing. The other thing I miss from business is Christmas. I mean Christmas didn't start till last store closed and then there was a wait a couple of hours for a telephone call which said you know we made budget or over budget and that always rather set the the tone for Christmas.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury3:27

And I must say when I first came into government and on about December the seventeenth that the civil servants said, Well, Minister, that's about it and I said, No, no, I always worked Christmas Eve and they said, No, no, Minister, you don't understand. You go shopping now. I I really didn't know what to do with myself but between then and Christmas Eve.

Presenter3:46

Tell me about your first record you want to take to the Desert Islands.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury3:48

Well, the first one would be the birdcatcher song from Mozart's Magic Flute. When I was a small boy, about 10 or 11 I think, I was taken by my father to Edinburgh. We went to the opera, I think it was one of the German opera companies, and I think this is the first bit of music I remember hearing and being absolutely entranced by. And it's a bit of music I'm entranced by today as well.

Speaker 44:40

There Fogel Fenger bind Jachnus dichoxa sa vogelfeger bin mechand, the eyebrows junt in guns and land. Einet für me chenme ich fiemsi dut and wais für.

Presenter5:15

Der Vogelfenger binichae, the bird catcher, am I from Mozart's Magic Flute? And that was sung by Erich Kuntz with the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Karian. And memories for you, David Sainsbury, of being taken to the opera as a small boy by your father, Robert, who was the fourth chairman of Sainsbury's, wasn't he? And you were to become the sixth chairman. He was obviously a very cultured man because he had this fantastic art collection, didn't he?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury5:33

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury5:41

Yes, I mean he was both, I think, a very good businessman, but also his great passion in life was his art collection.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury5:49

It was a most remarkable collection. I mean, he started as a young man and bought, when they were completely unknown, probably three of the greatest artists of the twentieth century, Henry Moore, Giacometti and Francis Bacon.

Presenter6:03

People would have thought that he he was mad, I suppose. I mean, it was very avant garde.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury6:03

People have

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury6:07

Yes, in those days many people came to the house and said, you know, uh the idea of these sculptures by Henry Moore or Epstein are really appalling and um disgusting and not what art is about at all. Quite a lot of them later in life

Speaker 46:19

Hmm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury6:22

Would say to my father, he's a huge amusement, I've always loved Henry Moore or Epstein and whatnot. But in those days it was very, very controversial.

Presenter6:30

And Henry Moore was your godfather, wasn't he?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury6:31

He was my godfather, so I'm probably the only small boy who's ever been asked down to Much Haddam, which is house, and all the drawings were put on the floor and I was asked, you know, just to choose one for a birthday present. So it was quite amazing upbringing. And of course we had this house in London, which was full of all these things. So I grew up thinking that everyone had Francis Bacon's on the walls and bits of African art in the cupboards.

Presenter6:59

And you were actually drawn by Giacometti, weren't you?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury7:02

Yes, I think it's about fifteen.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury7:05

And I was taken on to this incredibly decrepit studio, which he had. I mean, he was actually quite well off, but he had this incredibly decrepit studio. And he spent, I think, three hours drawing me. And we had sort of four wonderful of his greatest drawings came out of that. He said these are terrible. I mean, he always said that. I can't draw, and these are awful. But my parents took them off, and then he said they're so awful, I can't possibly be paid for this. And in fact, they were eventually paid for by a Macintosh from MS for his girlfriend.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury7:41

So it's a it's a it's a curious incident in my life.

Presenter7:44

And where are they now?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury7:45

Uh they're up in East uh Anglia with with the rest of the collection.

Presenter7:50

Record number two.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury7:51

The second record is um comes really from my schoolboy days um at Eton, where I discovered uh the operas of Verdi. The piece I've chosen is uh the love duet from the end of Act I of uh Othello, which I think is one of the great sort of romantic moments in music.

Speaker 48:09

A prayer name marbish.

Presenter9:09

Part of the love duet from the end of Act One of Verdi's Othello, with Raymond Vinay as Othello and Erva Nelli as Desdemona, with the NBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Otturo Toscanini, and that was recorded in nineteen forty seven.

Presenter9:22

Um you were brought up in this country in the main, David, but you'd been born in Canada. Your mother

Presenter9:28

went there, I think, in nineteen forty when you were born, not least because she was uh Jewish. She was a Dutch Jew, wasn't she?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury9:35

That's right. I think it was mainly because the bombs were falling on London at that point, and it was just thought safer for me to be born in Canada.

Presenter9:45

So she she wasn't in fear of of of

Presenter9:48

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury9:48

Well, there must have been some element of that in it.

Presenter9:48

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury9:52

She went, I think, Canada'cause I was about to be born. And then of course uh as soon as I was born she came back to be with my father during the war and I spent the first uh two years of my life in Canada.

Presenter9:55

Mm.

Presenter10:04

But she left you there.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury10:05

She left me there with my sister and a wonderful sort of uh cockney nanny who was absolutely wonderful figure, who brought me up for the first two years of life, and then we came back at the end of the war to England.

Presenter10:17

So you didn't see your parents at all for the first two years of your life?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury10:20

I didn't see my father at all, and I and my other mother only for, I think, um um sort of months at the beginning.

Presenter10:27

Peculiar, isn't it? But I suppose it's it's just what happened to you, so you can't.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury10:30

I think that was one of the things that was just the sort of thing that happened in the war.

Presenter10:34

What about the rest of your mother's family? Did they suffer at all in in the Holocaust?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury10:39

My grandfather and grandmother both got out of France. There were a lot of Dutch relatives who disappeared during the war and quite a lot of my parents' French friends were either in the resistance or also disappeared during the war. So that side of the family, there was great losses during the war.

Presenter10:56

Okay.

Presenter11:01

And your father, I think, did help some um Jews out of Germany, didn't he? How did they?

Presenter11:08

Help these students.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury11:08

Well, my father and um uncle brought out a a party of Jewish uh children.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury11:15

And actually, one of the most moving things at my father's memorial service was one of these kids, who's now a very distinguished professor in Oxford, came forward and said he would like to speak. And in fact, told this wonderful story of being summoned one day at this school they were at to be told that my father had suddenly thought how awful it was that they didn't have any pocket money and in future they would have pocket money, came forward. And it was just very moving.

Presenter11:44

Just quickly, one story from your schoolboyhood. You were apparently a bit of a rebel at Eton. Can that be true?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury11:53

Well, I think these all these things are re relative. I refused to be confirmed, and that was considered um

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury12:00

rather rebellious and appalling thing to do.

Presenter12:02

What did your parents think when you went home and and told them that you'd refused to be confirmed?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury12:06

Well, that was that was going to be my great rebellion. I I rushed home and said, you know, I'm not going to be confirmed, uh do your worst. And they said, Well, it doesn't make any difference to us'cause we're not religious. So that was complete failure as far as rebellion was concerned.

Presenter12:21

It was a bit of a damp squib. Uh record number three. What's that?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury12:25

One of the great discoveries of my life was the plays of Brecht and the wonderful Thrupni Opera with Kurt Weil, and this is the ballad of Mac the Knife, sung by Lottie Lenier, who was of course the wife of Kurt Weil and his greatest proponent.

Speaker 412:41

I fish der Hatzene untitregesi.

Speaker 412:50

All my keys

Speaker 413:00

Annam Shulen Blawen Santak Liktan Tota Ramalam Stren

Presenter13:09

The ballad of Mac the Knife from Cordvale's Thrutney Opera performed by his wife Lotta Lenia with Turk Murphy. Um you went up David Sainsbury to King's Cambridge in'fifty nine' to read history, but um

Presenter13:22

There's a feeling I get the impression reading about you that you re felt you should have been studying a science subject and indeed you did change, didn't you, to psychology?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury13:28

Yes, I mean I think one of the best things in that happened in my life was all my Eton friends went to Oxford. I went to King's, Cambridge. So I started with a whole set of new friends. Sidney Breno was a fellow of the college. One of my closest friends from those days who's remained a friend all my life was a scientist.

Presenter13:50

Hmm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury13:50

and um you you couldn't but be excited by uh what was going on.

Presenter13:55

And is that what you would like to have done, really, to have been some kind of research scientist?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury14:00

I would have loved to have done that, but you I think you have to be very good to be a scientist because it's it's huge fun when you're young, but unless you're very good And weren't you good enough?

Presenter14:07

And weren't you good enough?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury14:07

And I wouldn't have been good enough, I think. Well, I don't quite know, because I swapped, going from history to natural sciences. I mean, it was very, I think, broad-minded of Kings to let me do that, because you shouldn't really do that. But I swapped over and became absolutely fascinated by brain research vision systems, and I would have loved to study that.

Speaker 414:21

Yeah.

Presenter14:21

Hmm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury14:29

But maybe two.

Presenter14:29

But did you take a view? Did you look at yourself and think, I'm just not good enough, I can't do that?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury14:33

Neither, I'm not good enough, and um so um I suppose I was arrogant enough thinking I'll be a good grocer and that's probably better than being not very good scientists.

Presenter14:43

So to that extent then going into the family firm was a bit of a a fallback position, was it when you're

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury14:49

Yeah, originally I thought, well, I'll do this for six months and decide really what I'm going to do.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury14:53

Then when I got in it I became fascinated by it and it was at the end of the day a fairly small regional chain in those days. It was very much a family business. There were I think nine board directors of which seven were members of the family. The graduate intake was pretty much the the family and therefore you could could legitimately get to a top position quite quickly.

Presenter15:16

But those were eventually to be the big expansionist years, weren't they? Your cousin John Sainsbury became chairman. He's thirteen years older than you, I think. Something like that. And the company was floated and became hugely successful, as we know. And you kind of. tucked in under him really, I mean, for twenty three years. I mean, that's not the position of a of an ambitious driven businessman, is it?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury15:41

No, I think that's right. I think I was always well conscious of that, and that's part maybe partly why politics always played a a s a side part in my life.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury15:50

But they were hugely exciting and fun years because my father and uncle had taken the decision to go into self-service. And then there were twenty years of expansion. And of course you were always in the business of taking trade from still the service branches of competitors and so on. So

Presenter15:59

Mm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury16:09

In a way one was on a tide of success.

Presenter16:12

Tell me about the next piece of music.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury16:13

It's the theme from Chariots of Fire by Wengelis. It's about all the things I care about, um issues of integrity, striving for excellence, patriotism, athletics. So it has many good things for me.

Presenter16:56

Part of the theme to Chariots of Fire by Van Gellis, um the the theme tune, of course, of the SDP, which you bankrolled, David Sainsbury, um from its inception. Um

Presenter17:07

I said in the introduction that you classed yourself as a romantic man. Was that a an act of romance to do that, do you think?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury17:15

Well, I think it became in the later days a gesture of great optimism. I think at the beginning it was much more a sense of desperation. At that point the Labour Party believed in pulling out of Europe.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury17:27

more nationalization, unilateral disarmament. And I simply couldn't believe that this would create a better country.

Speaker 417:35

Yeah.

Presenter17:35

B

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury17:36

So that when the opportunity came to join the SDP, again it was a rather easy decision to take.

Presenter17:41

But of course, as we all know, in the end i it came to nothing and by nineteen eighty seven, you know, it was merging with the Liberals, which you didn't approve of at all. You and David Owen, I think, were very close on that issue. And then eventually by nineteen ninety it had disappeared. Did you feel bitter about that?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury17:58

Yes, I was I was very fed up at that point. It really had collapsed in eighty-seven. We we sort of lingered on.

Presenter18:03

But Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury18:05

Out of sort of desperation. By 90, it was clearly over on that point. I thought, well, this, you know, forget politics.

Presenter18:11

Because you had, I mean, you had thought maybe you'd become a minister then if all had gone to plan. I mean, hadn't you? Well, it was always one of those.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury18:16

Well, it was always one of those sort of pleasant thoughts at the back of one's mind. You know, if all this goes wonderfully well, then I might have to take a very difficult decision as to did I want to stay in Sainsbury's and try and be chairman, or did I go into politics? It was all pleasant fantasy.

Presenter18:34

But

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury18:35

In night and night I thought, well this is this is never going to happen, so forget politics and um get on with life.

Presenter18:41

back to the business, where of course then the chairmanship was to become vacant and and you were to take it.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury18:46

Dumb.

Presenter18:47

nineteen ninety two. You are a completely different character from your your cousin John, who, as I said, been running it for twenty three years. Um how would the staff have perceived that you were different from your predecessor?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury18:58

Well, I think my cousin John was an absolutely brilliant retailer. I mean, he absolutely lived and breathed retailing. He had an extraordinary understanding, I think, of the customer and the business revolved round him. The system was that the chairman was asked and gave his view on anything, the packaging of the product.

Presenter19:20

And his view obtained.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury19:23

Yes, but he was right.

Presenter19:23

Uh

Presenter19:25

But that's not how you did it.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury19:26

Actually looking back I think I allowed it to go on in his way of running things uh when I should have said look I've got to run it in a different way. But of course I was

Presenter19:34

Or democratically is really what you're saying.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury19:37

Well, more participatory and and of course it was getting a much bigger company so it was increasingly difficult to to run it that way.

Presenter19:43

And of course in the end, I mean, you don't need me to remind you, you know, Tesco

Presenter19:47

knocked you off the top spot.

Presenter19:50

And you famously had rubbished loyalty cards as electronic greenshield stamps and then had to eat humble pie and all that sort of stuff. When all these things happen on your watch, you get to carry the can.

Speaker 419:55

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury19:55

They had to

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:00

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:02

You get Karen, but you know, but I'd I'd been party to the management team that had um

Presenter20:06

Shut up.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:07

Run the business for the previous 20 years.

Presenter20:09

But did you

Presenter20:11

Yeah, and did did do you think the family blamed you? Do you think cousin John blamed you?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:16

Well, I think it you know, I was I was the chairman at that point and uh to lose out um to Tesco for the top spot was a was a a fairly bitter blow. So yeah, I guess I was I was seen as the the guy who had um uh thrown it away.

Presenter20:33

Record number five.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:35

One of the great passions of my life has always been dancing. I d I don't think I actually have a brilliant ear for music, but I have a very good sense of rhythm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:42

You're a good movie.

Presenter20:42

You're a good mover, is what you're telling me, is it?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury20:45

Well, I think so, yeah. I mean um I'm the sort of person who hears good dance music in an airport and uh will start dancing to the huge embarrassment of uh my children. The the next one is um a a wonderful piece of reggae called Sweet and Dandy by uh Toots and the Maytels.

Speaker 421:02

In that part of the

Speaker 421:06

Just a hate at all, my friend.

Speaker 421:09

Uncle Samas pull up in head

Speaker 421:12

And the saying of a moon in life is not time for his wedding day to no wonder.

Speaker 421:20

Did the perfect wonders why they were as filling that power slide?

Presenter21:29

Sweet and Dandy by Toots and the Maytals, originally released in 1969. So you were chairman, David, of Sainsbury's for six years, I think, 92 to 98, and then politics called again. Tony Baer had ennobled you in I think a few months after he came to power in 1997, hadn't he? How well did you know him by then? How well did he know you?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury21:49

Not very well. We'd met a couple of times and talked about political issues and I was enormously impressed. But actually maybe one shouldn't say this about politicians, but normally politicians, when you ask them a question, you can see the the mechanism going around saying what is the right answer to this question I should give. He seemed to me not to be like that, to be very direct, to have a very clear agenda of his own.

Presenter22:06

There's cool.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury22:14

Uh

Presenter22:14

Hmm.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury22:14

I was enormously impressed, but but didn't know him that well.

Presenter22:17

But had had you made significant donations to the party by then, I don't know.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury22:21

Yeah, I I had um probably two years before that.

Presenter22:21

Uh

Presenter22:25

I mean, can we put a figure on how much you've given to the Labour Party? I mean, I see figures of something like 11.5 million to date over the past.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury22:32

That's the sort of order of magnitude, yes. It was always a source of fury to me that um one of the political parties could be outspent dramatically by the others. That never seemed to me to be what democratic politics was all about.

Presenter22:34

Uh

Presenter22:35

Yes.

Presenter22:48

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury22:48

I thought uh one should do something to redress the balance.

Presenter22:51

No, I see that. But then of course the following year you were then made science minister, 1998, and inevitably people

Presenter22:59

Then immediately talk about cronyism. They say that you you bought your way in. How how do you, you know, answer that one?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury23:08

Well, I think it's one of the things you if you have money, you you get rather good at, is seeing whether people are doing things because of your money or because it's what um they really want to do.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury23:18

And I suppose finally there is a bit of arrogance which says, well, I was chosen, what about the other people?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury23:24

I think I probably could do a better job than the other people.

Presenter23:26

So you think you might have been offered the job even if you hadn't been a a major benefactor?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury23:31

Well, I I had a lot of business experience, a long record of interest in science and funding science. So compared with the other people who might have got their job, I probably was quite well qualified to do it.

Presenter23:44

It's I mean it's not a party political issue really, is it? It's it's one of principle and it's that it's it's that question of whether

Presenter23:51

whether someone who funds a party should actually have influence over the policy of that party. And that that's the difficult one. And I mean, the Tories have been, you know, as guilty as guilt it is of appointing such people themselves.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury24:04

Yes, I mean I think it's in the nature of politics in some sense that the people who are likely to support a political party as individuals are of course people who are interested in politics. And therefore if you start saying, well we want you to support us but not get involved in the political process, that's hopeless. I think the issue of integrity here is whether you say I give you the money, but it's only on the basis that you have certain policies. And I've always been absolutely clear that I would never ever

Presenter24:32

An Ivy.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury24:36

get Lema so get into that kind of position.

Presenter24:38

Or I give you the money if you're going to give me a a job to do, which again is simply not true.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury24:42

Yeah.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury24:43

Yeah.

Presenter24:46

Yeah.

Presenter24:47

Record number six.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury24:49

I would I think like to have one Beatles record on on My Desert Island, just because I've over the whole of my life once listened to the Beatles music. I think uh John Lennon was was the best uh songwriter of lot and imagine probably one of his best songs.

Speaker 425:05

Imagine there's no heaven.

Speaker 425:12

See if you try.

Speaker 425:18

No hell below us

Speaker 425:25

Above us only sky

Speaker 425:31

Imagine all the people

Presenter25:34

John Lennon and Imagine. Now the current most controversial issue, I think, and a lot of them do cross your desk, but the current one, of course, is GM crop production, and we know that you are a great advocate of it.

Presenter25:48

You know the allegation on this one that you have a conflict of interest because you have investments in companies which are concerned with that kind of research. How do you answer that? I mean, it is a problem for you, isn't it?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury25:59

Well, I think the issue is quite simple. I have nothing to do with decision-making government on GM.

Presenter26:05

Do you leave the room, do?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury26:07

Yeah, well I don't go to the meetings when it's going to be discussed. And that that's not too difficult because the basic decisions on control of GM is done by DEFRA, so it's a different ministry.

Presenter26:20

Minister of Agriculture as we as we know.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury26:22

So I simply don't get involved in those issues at all.

Presenter26:25

But do you think, really, that your position on it all has been a a a bit of a problem, a bit of an embarrassment to the government?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury26:33

Well, I think it would be easier if I hadn't been in that position, but I think it is understood that I have nothing to do with the decision making. I personally look at it always with slightly with amazement because

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury26:44

I mean how I got into this was in the mid-1980s. A great friend of mine, scientist from my Cambridge days, came and said, you know, if you want to do something useful, there is this real problem on the funding of plant science. What motivated me was one saw these huge benefits, partly to do with third world food issues, which has been another sort of great interest of my life in Africa, but also the potential benefits to the environment. So now that it seemed to be this great environmental problem, it's rather curious.

Presenter27:06

Which is

Presenter27:19

Well yes, but I mean although I think people appreciate all of that and do understand that it could be the solution to the problems of the developing world and their crop cultivation, obviously there are concerns about the adverse effects it might have on the environment and people don't like it as we know. I mean the government's own survey last year discovered that 90% of people are again it and yet still the government is going ahead with it. You know I mean this isn't this isn't a big conversation is it? I mean it's fallen on deaf ears those findings.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury27:48

The debate has to be, I think, about what are the proper regulatory controls that the government put in, because that's what the role of government is. I don't think it's the role of government to say this is a good technology or bad technology, or the impact of this will be good or bad in the future. The role of government to say is are there ethical issues, environmental issues, health issues involved in this technology where government ought to put in controls? And that's really what the debate has been about.

Presenter28:18

Isn't it the role of government to tell us w what is good for us?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury28:22

Well, no, I think the question here is what are the appropriate decisions for government to take? And I think governments should take decisions about any technology, whether there are ethical issues, whether there are safety issues, whether there are environmental issues, and should decide what is the appropriate regulation. Now those regulations may mean that the technology is never used, but I don't think governments are elected to say this is a good technology, we shouldn't we should do more research on it, we shouldn't do anything on that, because that's not how science works.

Presenter29:01

Cook number seven.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury29:02

As I think I've said, a great influence in my life was my father. He died a few years ago and we had a memorial service for him at which we played Foray's Requiem, which I think is one of the most beautiful of the Requiem Masses. And this is the Pied Jesu from that performance.

Presenter30:21

The Pied Yezu from Foray's Requiem, sung by Maria McLachlan with the City of London Sinfonia, conducted by Harry Christophers, and that was recorded at the memorial service for my castaway David Sainsbury's father, Robert, three years ago in October two thousand. How do you enjoy yourself, David? You sound as if you've got quite a slog of a job.

Presenter30:41

What do you do to relax other than dance to reggae music from what we get?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury30:46

Well I like Donna but well I think there's not not um a great deal of time for other things. I love walking. I have a house in the in the country uh surrounded by wonderful walks. I love that. I read a great deal. To me the perfect relaxation is uh is reading. I love detective stories so I read in insatiably detective stories.

Presenter31:06

And what's the most extravagant thing you've ever done, or bought, or

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury31:06

And what's the miss

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury31:10

I think the most extravagant thing I've ever bought, I I have Elizabeth Frink um h uh horse with warrior, a life-side one. I think that's probably the most uh expensive thing I've ever bought.

Presenter31:20

On a plan, or did you plan it?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury31:23

I've always loved her sculpture. I have one or two small pieces and I then saw a picture of this and thought this is this is what I want to have. I'm doing all this hard work as Science Minister. I deserve occasional bonus and I bought it.

Presenter31:38

And do you always shop at Sainsbury's, and do you have a loyalty card?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury31:42

Well, I know I don't um go into the source now because um I'm not allowed to have any sort of contact with the company and um it's really too much hassle avoiding people photographing you coming out with shopping. So

Presenter31:55

Don't tell me you shop at Tesco.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury31:55

Then tell me

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury31:56

I don't shop at all on food, is the answer, other than small purchases of uh French bread at a local shop.

Presenter32:03

Hmm. Last record.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury32:05

The last record, I I come back again to Mozart, who I think is the incomparable composer. It's the last moments of the marriage of Figaro, uh where the count asks for pardon from his wife and it's a moment I think of extraordinary beauty which is practically incomparable in any opera.

Presenter33:21

Part of the finale of Mozart's Marriage of Figaro with Tom Allen as the Count and Kiri Tecanawa as the Countess with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter33:31

How are you going to cope on this desert island, David? Do you think you'll be all right?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury33:35

No, I I think it would be terrible. I like going to the country, but only to sort of have a brief respite from the city. I'm basically urban man and the idea of being on a desert island with one book is something so appalling uh that I'd think I'd I'd be a wreck within weeks.

Presenter33:51

What about if it was only one record, one of these eight? Which one would you take?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury33:55

That would be extremely difficult. I th I think I'd probably take

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury33:58

The Marriage of Figaro is one of the greatest works of art ever produced. I mean it's almost perfect from the beginning to end in conception and execution. So it would have to be Mozart, I think.

Presenter34:10

And what what is the one book you take then?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury34:13

It would be The Great Gatsby, which has for a long time been my favourite book. I called my Charitable Trust after it, and I think it's one of the great masterpieces of modern literature.

Presenter34:25

But he was a millionaire playboy. I mean, not exactly like you at all.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury34:30

No, but he was actually a very moral character. He didn't live up to it in his life, but he was a very s moral character.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury34:37

And it's a book about having a vision and pursuing that vision, and then that makes life worthwhile.

Presenter34:43

And what about your luxury? What would that be?

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury34:45

I think I would choose to have just a large bath and a constant supply of hot water. I do most of my thinking in the bath. I like reading the bath. And I think that might help me get through, but but I think by and large I would be a hopeless wreck on a Desert Island.

Presenter35:03

David Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury of Turville, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Rt Hon Lord Sainsbury35:07

Thank you.

Speaker 335:15

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.