Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and three, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a politician. He first entered Parliament twenty years ago, the surprise winner of his home seat in Scotland. He was twenty three years old, and his arrival at Westminster was only the third time he'd been to London in his life. But this good Catholic Highland boy was already afire with politics, a President of the Union at Glasgow University, a Fulbright scholar, and the author of a thesis on the rhetoric of Roy Jenkins. He became a performer too, seen and heard on radio and television chat shows almost as much as on the floor of the Commons. Four years ago he became leader of his party. He has big ambitions for it, but it's not his whole life. I'm a fairly normal human being, he says. I aim to enjoy life beyond politics. He is the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Charles Kennedy. Twenty years in the House, Charles, apparently when you first turned up, you didn't know where Westminster was.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP1:23

I didn't. I was bunking in a friend's spare bedroom in Hammersmith, and I didn't know how you got from Hammersmith to Westminster. I didn't know how you got from Heathrow to Hammersmith. So it was even worse than that.

Presenter1:37

So you arrive there feeling a bit of an outsider, or is it very, very young, very gangly, can we imagine this?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP1:42

Yes, yes, well a ganglier than I am now, that's for sure. Wet behind the earth. Yes, I I very wet behind the ears and there was a whole lot of things that all happened in a rush and uh you just got on with it. And I I sometimes look back now and think how did you do all that? But I suppose that's life, isn't it?

Presenter1:46

Yeah.

Presenter2:01

But you were a small fish in a small pond. I mean, there were only six SDP MPs, and you were one of them, so you were bound to be, you know, in the swim right from the beginning. That was a good idea.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP2:10

I was indeed. At the very first meeting I went to, there I was sitting with David Owen and Roy Jenkins. Well, I remember David saying to me, he said, Now you're going to have to get used to the fact that you mustn't call Roy Mr. Jenkins anymore. You've got to call him Roy.

Presenter2:24

And he was your great hero?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP2:26

And he was my great hero. We shared an office together for four years. Never a dull moment. I miss him terribly.

Presenter2:32

But that's amazing to arrive for the first time in House at age twenty three and find yourself sharing an office with the great Guru.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP2:38

Indeed, whom I had been writing the thesis on sitting in the Midwest of the United States.

Presenter2:43

Never finished the thesis there.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP2:44

Unfinished symphony, but they he used to pull my leg about that, but why would

Presenter2:47

Why was it he who rang your political bell at that point? I think it was nineteen seventy nine, wasn't it, when he gave the Dimpleby lecture. I mean, why wasn't it, for example, John Smith and Donald Dewell? You'd briefly been a member of the Labour Party. It's very interesting that you didn't go instinctively for them.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP3:01

Interest

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP3:05

Well, I suppose that maybe it's where I come from, that I don't see the world, I don't see society in terms of class interests. It seems to me that we're a bunch of individuals and that the task of a political party or a good government is to manage things up to a point where you enable individuals to flourish. And it seemed to me that's what Jenkins was about, and that's really what I want politics to be about.

Presenter3:27

But

Presenter3:32

And that's what you'd always intended that your politics should be about. Reading about you, it said that they knew from the day you were born that you would want to be Prime Minister.

Presenter3:42

Can this be true?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP3:43

I don't know who they are, but they are as a child I was certainly probably had an unhealthy interest in politics in the sense unhealthy, yes. Whether it was Nixon and Watergate in the United States or whether it was Harold Wilson and Ted Heath in Britain. It was something that I was just very interested in.

Presenter3:52

In the same

Presenter4:05

But do we get this image of you as being a a a bit of a William Hague, as it were? No, they used the word Anorak in those days in Fort Cornwall.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP4:08

Nobody

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP4:11

William and I have talked about this actually and I certainly wasn't you know postering my bedroom with by-election results. I mean it's far more likely to be a David Bowie poster, you know, but I think that when you come from a place like Fort William in the Highlands of Scotland, a sense of community is very important. People are very interdependent and you can't stray very far into that without hitting politics.

Presenter4:36

Let's have your first record. Tell me about this one.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP4:38

Well, I'm starting with nepotism completely, and this is my dad, Ian Kennedy. He's a very fine traditional West Highland fiddle player, and there's one BBC recording actually of days gone by when he won the Mod, which is the the Gallic equivalent of the I Stepford, which is something I'd like to hear in my Desert Island.

Presenter5:54

That was my castaway's father Ian Kennedy playing the fiddle at the nineteen sixty six Gaelic National Mod. We started with the March of the Cameron Highlanders and we went on to the Brig of Perth. A nice little segue there. Not that they know about segways, Charles.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP6:06

I don't think segways lend themselves to uh traditional Highland fiddle music. When we were children, if ever my dad would get annoyed or fed up with us, he would just go off to the bedroom with his fiddle, and that was a sure sign that things might not be quite right, but they would be bound to get better, because after he had an hour with his music, he was much encouraged, and it's it's remained with us ever since. I mean, music has just been uh fundamental to everything about our daily lives.

Presenter6:33

So give me a picture of where you were brought up, in the shadow of Ben Nevis, on a croft. I mean, were you taught to till the land or shear the sheep? I mean, were you a was it a rural upbringing in that sense? You were of the land?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP6:46

It was a very rural upbringing. He had uh a crofter, so he had cows, he had hens, uh he had a horse, so we we were just used to that. That's what we were brought up on.

Presenter6:58

So that's what you did? I mean, you would help him, would you?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP7:01

I would help to a certain extent. I mean, I'm not sure how much help I was, but didn't.

Presenter7:05

Didn't really appeal then.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP7:06

No, I was never uh particularly attracted by the farming way of life, although, ironically, now, you know, I wax lyrical about where I live, which is on that croft. And uh he was a great educator, really, a great educator, a great friend, and you know, I miss him terribly and always will do, but it was a very happy, healthy upbringing, really, as children.

Presenter7:18

And

Presenter7:30

He was your father's father. Your mother came from Clydeside. I read she was a good old fashioned red Clydeside.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP7:35

Yeah.

Presenter7:36

Does that mean that she worries about you now? I mean, does she say, Come on, Charles, when are you going to get a proper job?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP7:40

She says exactly that and uh she does I think uh tend towards the view that uh

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP7:47

A proper job involves making something or doing something. Politics is turning.

Presenter7:51

Earning your money, that's what the problem is.

Presenter7:59

And it was a strong Catholic upbringing, wasn't it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:01

Yes, very strong, yes.

Presenter8:02

Yes.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:03

Absolutely. Every every Sunday morning. Absolutely.

Presenter8:05

You an altar boy.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:07

Mm-hmm.

Presenter8:07

All of that. So how do you square that, and presumably still today, wi with your mother uh uh and with your father, you know, with your liberal views now on abortion and gay marriage and so on? I mean, it's it's not possible to square it, is it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:21

Well, I I would describe myself, although I'm not a fantastically religious person, but if I had to put a definition of myself, I would describe myself as a a liberal Catholic. That's where I'm coming from.

Presenter8:32

Describe yourself as a lap. Uh

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:33

Guess.

Presenter8:33

Yeah.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:33

No, I wouldn't describe myself as Laps, no.

Presenter8:35

So would your mother?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:36

No, I think that uh she still says her prayers for her wee boy. Um no, I I would certainly consider myself to be a Catholic and I'm married to an Anglican who would certainly consider herself to be an Anglican. Um and we would both consider ourselves to be quite liberal in our outlook.

Presenter8:53

Record number two.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP8:55

I couldn't exist on this desert island without Mr David Bowie's presence and sound, and we have to go for young Americans, and it has got the best drum introduction you could ever wish.

Speaker 49:15

Oh night, you won't say young America.

Speaker 49:22

The young

Speaker 49:25

Alright!

Speaker 49:27

But he wants a young American

Presenter9:36

Young Americans by David Bowie and the man himself

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP9:38

It doesn't come better than that, really, doesn't it? I just love that song. It's fantastic.

Presenter9:39

That's not a

Presenter9:42

So you're in America, in Indiana, as a Fulbright scholar. A friend rings up and says Ross, Cromity and Skye, the home seat, is up for grabs, and you decide to get yourself selected as SDP candidate. But a hopeless fight, obviously. It was a Tory stronghold, wasn't it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP9:57

It had been held by a government minister. The Liberals had come fourth at the previous general election, so it wasn't exactly on the hit list. And there was nobody more surprised than me when the result came out. And there's that marvellous film, Robert Redford film, The Candidate, where the final scene of the film is him bundled into a hotel room with all these enthusiastic people outside because he's won. And he looks at his agent and he says, What happens now? And the agent looks at him and says, I don't know. I was only here to fight the campaign. And that was precisely the conversation I had with Sandra Macdonald, my agent, and said, What do we do now? I don't know, never expected this.

Presenter10:41

So there you are, twenty three and you were in. You held necessarily in a small party then a variety of front line jobs, didn't you, over the next fifteen years or so after the merger and so on. But you did social security, you did trade and industry. That kept me going, yes, yes. You became president of the Lib Dems.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP10:43

Green.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP10:54

The kitchen, yes, yes.

Presenter10:57

And then

Presenter10:58

Paddy Ashdown made you spokesman for rural affairs. That was a distinct sidelining of.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:02

That was

Presenter11:04

Yours truly, wasn't it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:05

Well, it wasn't particularly because rural affairs, given the constituency and all the rest of it, was uh pretty straightforward decision there.

Presenter11:13

But the truth is you didn't see eye to eye, did you?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:16

Oh no, I this is wrong actually about Paddy and myself. It really is wrong. Uh we saw fundamentally eye to eye about most things, and where we disagreed we disagreed. But he's been a great source of support and counsel and all the rest of it in the time that I've been leader.

Presenter11:32

Yeah, but the inside analysis as I pick it up is that perhaps your natural ability annoyed him. You always have got on without too much effort. He had to work quite hard to keep up.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:34

Is that

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:42

Well, I mean, we are completely, I mean, temperamentally, we are just about as much chocolate and cheese as you could get. That's a great quote, isn't it?

Presenter11:48

That's a great quote, isn't it? Paddy Ashdown could kill a man with his bare hands, Charles Kennedy couldn't put a stick in a toffee apple.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:54

I haven't heard that one before.

Presenter11:58

But what about that?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP11:59

But we are very different types. Yes, of course we are.

Presenter12:00

Yes, of course we are. And perhaps that's what it is, and perhaps also low boredom threshold. Is that why you metamorphosed into what was commonly known as Chat Show Charlie? Because it was just at that point when you were, and I'm saying demoted to rural affairs, that you start then appearing on, I don't know, Call My Bluff, Have I Got News for You? I mean, you even did an impersonation of David Bowie on a radio programme at one point, didn't you?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP12:23

Yes. And then I ended up in Desert Island Discs. I mean, is this the end of careers? No, no, no, no. The um no, I think that one of the problems it strikes me and has struck me for a long time about politics is that politicians are not connecting sufficiently with the public and the public are not engaging enough with us.

Presenter12:28

Uh

Presenter12:41

So that's why you did it.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP12:43

And to improve.

Presenter12:43

To improve your profile.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP12:45

Well, not just to improve my profile, but I think that if you want to get through to people, then you've got to be prepared to put yourself in slightly different circumstances from sitting on news night and mouthing off about whatever the issue of the day is. And if that means have I got news for you or anything else is an appropriate venue, then you should go for it.

Presenter13:07

Require number three.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP13:09

Well, I'm going to have some puccini from Tosca. The first time I I went to Covent Garden it was a performance of Tosca and I just thought it was the most magical experience. I'd never quite seen anything like this and this area just says it all. I lived for a

Speaker 413:32

Single

Presenter14:25

Vissi d'Arte, I Live for Art, I Live for Love, from Puccini's Tosca sung by Maria Callas with the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra conducted by Georges Pretre.

Presenter14:34

So, uh Charles Kennedy, Paddy Ashdown and the the soubriquet of Chat Show Charlie not withstanding, you became leader of your party. Pretty decisive win over Simon Hughes. That was in nineteen ninety nine.

Presenter14:45

The cheap question is the one that Clive Anderson put to you, isn't it? And it got a huge laugh. First question he said.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP14:50

What's the point?

Presenter14:51

Liberal Democrats, what's the point? It's telling that everybody burst out laughing, isn't it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP14:57

Yes, I wonder if they would burst out laughing now, four or five years later, if Clive or yourself put the same question.

Presenter15:04

Do you think you've made that much difference?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP15:05

I think we are making a difference, yes. I don't just mean spectacular by election wins like Brent and so on, but if you look at the generality of what the party is achieving, the number of local authorities we're running, the fact that we've got government ministers now in Scotland and so on I mean th these are changed days.

Presenter15:24

Fifty-six percent of the electorate, including a third of your admirers, regard you as a protest vote.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP15:30

If you're an opposition political party, there is always going to be an element of protest about the people who are attracted to you at any given time.

Presenter15:39

Yes, but if you want to pick up the disaffected from the Tories and the disaffected from Labour, and there are a lot of both at the moment, obviously this is a good moment for you.

Presenter15:47

You've got to be able to say where you are in the spectrum, but you can't settle anywhere in the political spectrum because you want to pick up both those ends, the left and the right, don't you?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP15:50

But you can't

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP15:55

Well you see, I don't accept, obviously, that people think in those left-right terms anymore. Uh the days when well, I vote red, I vote blue, that's what my dad always did.

Presenter16:06

Except you do acknowledge it. I mean, you said in your first speech at the party conference, I think, that, you know, to situate yourself to the left of the Labour Party was political suicide. I mean, it is at the end of the day. Not midterm, but at general elections it is where people look, isn't it? It's where they see you and where they want to find you. And if you're not in the right place, and you have to be in two different places is the point.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP16:29

No, no, we don't. We certainly do not want to be in two different places. We want to be on the the space that we occupy as a a liberal democratic.

Presenter16:37

But where is that on the political spectrum?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP16:40

Well, this whole stuff about oh, is he going to the right this week, is he going to the left last week, it's just rubbish. That is not how people view their politics in this country and that's not how they respond to their political leaders or to their political parties.

Presenter16:51

This country

Presenter16:56

The real question is if the l liberals or libdems or whatever you're called today didn't exist, would we need to invent them?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP16:56

Uh

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP17:03

No, definitely, without any shadow of a doubt.

Presenter17:07

Next record, number four.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP17:08

Well, since we're being aspirational at this point in the conversation, I suppose Fly Me to the Moon's is good a place to head for. I'm a great fan of Frank Sinatra, and although I don't wish to be unduly morbid at this point in the proceedings, I think when I'm carried out of the church in a box one day, this would be the the sound I would like to hear.

Presenter17:13

The place to

Speaker 417:29

Fly me to the moon, let me play among the stars.

Speaker 417:37

And let me see what spring is like on a Jupiter and Mars.

Speaker 417:45

In other words...

Speaker 417:48

Hold my hand.

Speaker 417:53

In other words.

Speaker 417:56

Baby, kiss me.

Presenter17:58

Thanks, Inatra, and Fly Me to the Moon, um which is, as you say, properly aspirational. Apparently, uh y you know, you do indulge in this stuff. You're uh an amateur astronomer, yeah?

Speaker 417:58

Yeah.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP18:07

Yes, very amateur, very amateur indeed. Uh I don't think I've got anywhere near the moon, although I have been looking at Mars recently since it's closer to us than it's liable to be for the rest of our lifetimes and beyond.

Presenter18:18

But you've got a proper telescope. I mean, you do it all properly, eh?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP18:21

Well, I have a three-inch refractor, if you want to know the full details. But the thing about telescopes, it's rather like politics. You know, you've got to make sure you're looking down the right end to get the desired result. But I've always been fascinated by the celestial beings, and it remains an abiding interest. I don't get that much time for it, but the north of Scotland is a good place to look at the sky and dream.

Presenter18:46

Less light pollution, I'm sure, yes.

Presenter18:49

Mm.

Presenter18:50

Okay, so what's the grand plan for coming to power? You didn't fall into the trap at the party conference of telling your party to go home and prepare for government. But nevertheless, there is a grand plan, isn't there? What is it? What's the strategy?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP19:03

The ambition, and I think it's a realistic ambition, is for the Liberal Democrats to find themselves part of the government of the country at Westminster.

Presenter19:11

To become the official opposition.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP19:14

Mr President, that is very difficult to predict here, but under this crazy first pass-to-post voting system, anything can happen and you simply do not know. But I think that we can certainly have a realistic ambition to emerge as the most credible opposition party. Now what that means precisely in terms of votes or seats at the next election, even the Sophologists couldn't give you an answer to that one question.

Presenter19:40

And then at the following election, 2009, let us say, it's Charles Kennedy for Prime Minister. That's the plot, is it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP19:47

Well

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP19:48

Well, I I would hope that that's a realistic ambition, but I've got a lot of work ahead of me to achieve it.

Presenter19:54

Indeed. And i you've got to have a plan. And it sounds, I have to say, for a a a party that's been opposing war in Iraq, pretty bellicose. It involves decapitation, I understand. Decapitation of vulnerable Tories, right?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP20:08

Well, if you just look at the straightforward statistics of the matter, if we are to progress further as a party, then a lot of the seats that we've got to win are presently held by quite prominent Conservative politicians.

Presenter20:21

So it's Oliver Lettwin, David Davis, Theresa May.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP20:24

Yes, Michael Howard, all these people come into focus, but I also think that what's going to be extremely intriguing over the second half of this Parliament is the extent to which the sense of disillusion with Labour in what have been some of their traditional heartlands is going to come to haunt Tony Blair to a certain extent.

Presenter20:45

But it's a it's a long way to go, Charles, to 2009 and CK for PA.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP20:50

Hence a long leaf.

Presenter20:51

There's going to be a lot of holding the fort and taking of the flak between now and then. Do you think you've got the stomach for it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP20:57

Oh, yes. I mean, I have been.

Presenter20:59

But you might get bored.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP21:01

Yeah.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP21:02

Well, I certainly don't get bored. I think one of the uh the the fascinating things about being a party political leader is the sheer absence of boredom actually.

Presenter21:12

And do you think that your chances are more realistic than they ever were for David Steele?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP21:18

I think that there is a greater opportunity now for us, but we have got to remain consistent and principled about things, even when it makes you unpopular with people. We mustn't just go in there thinking all you have to do is appeal to the latest passing fad. That is not the way to political progress. Roy Jenkins taught me that.

Presenter21:41

Record number five.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP21:42

One of the most extraordinary experiences that Sarah and myself will.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP21:47

Well, be with us forever really was when we were both at the front of the the altar and the whole congregation, all our friends and family at the wedding just went full whack with Praise My Soul, the King of Heaven, which was our opening hymn. And that just sends a a tremor uh up and down my spine to this day and always will. It was just a fantastic moment.

Speaker 422:16

Thy song like King Oliver Trem.

Speaker 422:26

And some here is not forgiven, who like me his praise should sing.

Speaker 422:40

Praise Him, praise Him.

Speaker 422:42

Praise me ever lost him.

Speaker 422:50

Praise Him for His grace and fame.

Speaker 422:57

Our Fathers in distress, Place him still safe forever, Stone to child and sweet to bless.

Presenter23:13

The choir of Christ's College, Cambridge, singing Praise My Soul, the King of Heaven, the opening hymn of your marriage service to Sarah Girling last summer, Charles Kennedy, not a moment you'll forget.

Presenter23:22

This summer has been a difficult one for you. It um people started to speculate about your leadership. It all seemed to begin when you didn't turn up for Gordon Brown's statement on Euro entry in early June, which is a subject very close to your heart. You stayed in your office for the afternoon instead. That seems a curious decision.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP23:33

Yeah.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP23:35

Uh

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP23:41

Well, I suppose it was a curious decision. I mean, it was a decision taken on the day, and that's just a decision I took. I suppose, looking back, I mean, the benefit of hindsight is a great thing to have. But if I'd imagined that it would have encouraged the kind of speculation or gossip that perhaps it did, then I would have taken the opposite decision and gone and sat in the chamber.

Presenter24:02

I'm sure. But it did and it went on. It went on all summer, didn't it? And there was talk of your going to ground or getting depressed and drinking heavily. And it wouldn't go away, that charge, would it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP24:13

Well, I mean I think people just have to judge by results and by the evidence that they can see in front of them. We achieved thirty percent uh in the votes cast at the May local elections. We won the Brent by-election. We had, I think most commentators would acknowledge a pretty successful conference. I've just done a reshuffle. I mean this is not the actions of somebody who's not on the case, is it?

Presenter24:36

No, it it's true. It has to be said that the results seem to contradict the charges, as it were. But the charges were there and they went on. And one of your own colleagues and I presume you identified him but he was quoted in one newspaper as saying, instead of riding high, we're in the doldrums under a leader who's ineffective, always tired

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP24:36

It

Presenter24:52

and not throwing himself wholeheartedly into the fight. It was all part of what became known as a whispering campaign all summer long, didn't it?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP25:00

Well, I mean, I I I was laughing with somebody recently, you know, that if you look at the year that Tony Blair has had, and he's not been without his difficulties, and I'm not referring to the the very recent medical issues, but I'm talking about politics. And if you look at the difficulties that have been afflicting the leadership of the Conservative Party, then I was almost missing out to a certain extent. So I think you've just got to accept, if you're a party political leader, that you're going to attract flack.

Presenter25:27

Is it true that the party elders gave you a couple of months to pull yourself together?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP25:31

No, it's not true. There's absolutely no truth in that whatsoever. Nonsense.

Presenter25:37

Is it true that you decided to pull yourself together then this summer, that you decided to take yourself in hand?

Presenter25:43

Well, I think that's a good idea.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP25:43

Well, I think that's far as drinking.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP25:45

No, I don't n um there no, that is not the case at all. I think it's fair to say that when you do get married and your wife is ten years younger than you, and you begin to think about life a little bit differently, then I perhaps lead a slightly more sensible, healthy existence than used to be the case.

Presenter26:04

But if these rumours were true, you didn't for the first year of your marriage. I mean, has Sarah been saying, Come on, Charles, you've got to stop them? We now see you with a glass of water in your hand on public occasions, which is not the Charles Kennedy that we knew before this summer.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP26:18

I really think that far too much can get read into all of this sort of stuff. The Palace of Westminster, the twenty years I've spent there, the number of caricatures that go round that place about people, you know, and if you're a red-headed Highlander from the north of Scotland, that's one caricature that can apply to certain circumstances and so on. It's just not the case, no. I mean, I've you know, I lead a constructively healthy life, but I haven't yet given up the cigarettes. That is the big challenge in life.

Presenter26:50

Record number six.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP26:52

Well, one of the things that I'm never going to excel for Britain on uh is punctuality. So I like uh the Rolling Stones. I think that they're the the best rock and roll band in the world. I think they're better than the Beatles. Um but I've kept an awful lot of friends waiting over the years. And this is a lovely jagger song waiting on a friend.

Speaker 427:16

A smile relieves a heart that greets

Speaker 427:20

Remember what I said

Speaker 427:24

I'm not waiting, I wanna leave it.

Speaker 427:32

I'm just waiting on a friend.

Speaker 427:37

Just waiting on a frame.

Presenter27:41

The Rolling Stones and waiting on a friend. Disentangling your party from closeness to Labour has very much characterised your leadership, Charles. Tony Blair didn't deliver in the end to Paddy Ashdown, did he? Two cabinet seats or electoral reform. He didn't need two. But would you do that deal again if the opportunity arose with a cast iron guarantee this time?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP28:04

Mr President, that the experience of the last few years really has been that we do better when we plough our own furrow as a party. Given that electoral reform is not on the agenda, full stop, the government is not interested, so that's the end of the matter meantime. We're doing better by actually focussing on the issues that people care about on their day-to-day domestic concerns, whether it's health, whether it's transport, whether it's Iraq, whatever it might be.

Presenter28:29

Kelsk

Presenter28:31

Yes, but electoral reform is the price. Electoral reform would assure you of some kind of proper political power, wouldn't it? You couldn't possibly turn down the opportunity. Your hero, Roy, would not forgive you, would he?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP28:44

Well, I think Roy had latterly become pretty disillusioned on that front with the Prime Minister. Uh there's no doubt about that. In fact, the very last conversation I I had with him very, very shortly before his death was uh in and around this particular area. But

Presenter28:59

What did he say?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP28:59

Uh

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP28:59

Well, I think he just felt disillusioned that there was a great moment of opportunity for the Prime Minister, for Tony Blair, to deliver a fundamental change to the constitution of the country. Well, he didn't do it, to anchor our future in Europe, and that moment was not seized.

Presenter29:19

But what people really care about, as we know, particularly at a general election as opposed to midterm, is the pound in their pocket, to use the hacknet old phrase. And the problem with your party

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP29:29

The pound in the pocket as opposed to the Euro in the

Presenter29:31

Indeed. But that your problem is, as a party, that people know that in the end you would increase direct taxation in some form.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP29:39

Yes, and we don't make any secret of that fact. I said two things at the last general election. One was vote for me and I'm not going to win. I'm not going to be Prime Minister after this general election campaign. There was a few raised eyebrows in the room at that point. And the second thing was if you vote for us, the chances are that we'll increase your taxes. Now, it didn't kill us off, quite the opposite. We had the best result we've ever got. And I think as long as you're straight with people and

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP30:08

moderate in your approach to the decisions that need to be taken where quality public services are concerned. Increasingly, people can see with the evidence of their own eyes the deficiencies that are existing in Britain at the moment.

Presenter30:24

Make one sitting.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP30:26

One of the most nervous moments of the year.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP30:30

is Remembrance Sunday, where the party leaders all lay the wreath in front of the cenotaph. The piece of music that is playing is Elgar's Nimrod, and it's just something that's very moving.

Presenter31:43

Part of Nimrod from Elgar's Enigma variations, played by the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Simon Rattle. Okay, so the image of Charles Kennedy.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP31:51

It's an absolutely haunting isn't that amazing music.

Presenter31:52

That makes amusing. Hold on.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP31:54

Come on, Tex.

Presenter31:54

Very English, very moving.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP31:56

Yes, well

Presenter31:57

Sorry.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP31:57

Actually, it's good for me for as a Scot to uh uh indulge in this direction. I'm married to Londoner, so I've got I've got to nod in the direction of England, I think.

Presenter31:58

To me.

Presenter32:06

Come on then. An image of you on a desert island sitting there. A fag in the hand.

Presenter32:14

One of these days, not.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP32:15

Hopefully not, but uh bit of work to be done there yet. I think that um I'm quite good in m in my own company actually. You know, that I suppose it's it's one of the rather curious features of life, uh doing what I do, that you tend to be surrounded by people all the time. Um and that's fine, I like company, but equally I'm quite happy with solitude. It doesn't bother me at all, apart from music.

Presenter32:15

Two.

Presenter32:41

Apart from music.

Presenter32:47

Will I sh

Presenter32:48

You would be surprised.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP32:48

You

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP32:49

You would be surprised. Um I do actually quite like the DIY. I'm not saying I'm great at it. My dad's much better than me, but it's a good way of getting your mind off everything else.

Presenter32:50

You would be

Presenter33:00

So you can knock up a shelter and you could look after yourself. And what about how would you be in the rabbit strangling stakes? Not as good as Paddy, I suspect.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP33:08

I suspect not as good as Paddy. You've been on the course. I'd be a bit squeamish about that.

Presenter33:10

You've been on the course.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP33:15

But fishing would come all right. Uh I used to that used to that as a kid where I come from. Uh so I could probably get my hook line sinker uh organized.

Presenter33:25

But would you try to escape, or would you just lean back and enjoy the view?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP33:30

Oh, I think I would probably want to escape. I would want to escape. But I'd like to enjoy the view for a little while before I constructively apply my mind to escaping.

Presenter33:41

Tell me about your last record.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP33:42

Last year we we had a lot of Sarah and myself had a lot of very pleasant and privileged occasions in connection with the Queen's Jubilee, Golden Jubilee, one of which was the pop concert at the palace, which was quite an event. And Toploader came out and sang Dancing in the Moonlight, and it just

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP34:03

The whole place just took off and it's just a very happy memory of something that we really enjoyed, and it's a good song.

Speaker 434:12

Dance and stay up tight at the supernight. Everybody was dancing in the moonlight.

Speaker 434:23

Dance and a boy.

Presenter34:42

Dancing in the Moonlight from Toploader. Now, Charles Kennedy, if you could only take one of those eight records, which one would you take?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP34:48

My vote has got to be for my dad.

Presenter34:50

So D. and Kennedy playing the fiddle goes with you to the end. What about your book, as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP34:55

Day of the Jackal. I never tire of that book and uh therefore it it would come with me.

Presenter35:01

And your luxury.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP35:02

And my luxury would just be a C D a player, I suppose.

Presenter35:06

You mean you don't want our wind up gramophone?

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP35:09

Well, I would always settle for that, yes. I mean, we've got some old Ink Spots numbers, the seventy eights, I think, back in the loft at home, that I seem to remember from childhood. I don't mind what music it is, as long as there's lots of it. That's absolutely essential.

Presenter35:24

Charles Kennedy, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island is.

Rt Hon Charles Kennedy MP35:27

It has been great fun, thank you, sir.

Speaker 335:36

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.