Nigella Lawson

Nigella Lawson0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Nigella Lawson0:08

The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and three, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My Costaway this week is a food writer. An erratic schooling followed by a spell at Oxford took her into journalism and a restaurant column in The Spectator. From there she blossomed into a much in demand culinary expert, writing for national newspapers and later on publishing her book How to Eat. Eventually she burst onto our television screens as a domestic goddess. The title of course is ironic. Her voluptuous careless manner has enraptured audiences here and in the States.

Presenter0:58

The casual mistress of comfort eating has, however, a sadder side. Her husband and father of her two children died of throat cancer after long and well documented suffering. She'd seen her mother and sister die of cancer too. This, she believes, partly explains why food became the centre of her professional life. It was during their illnesses that she turned to cooking for consolation. I let greed be my guide, she says. My qualification is as an eater. She is Nigella Lawson. And in an era, Nigella, in which diets and exercise dominate our our newspapers and magazines, I have to say you're a wonderful antidote. Is is there any food you don't like?

Nigella Lawson1:36

Is there any

Presenter1:38

Well, you know, in an emergency I'd eat tripe, but I'd rather not. But I'm afraid I can't genuinely think of a food I don't like eating. People say your idea of a diet is having less cheese on your jacket potatoes.

Presenter1:50

You know, the thing is I'm not really such a creature of excess. I think appetite to be fully satisfied needs bouts of restraint. But what I don't like is that sort of uh self-persecution and I and I'm not really very good at denial. Every now and then there's something, you know, in the front of the newspapers that says there's a fabulous new drug which allows people to feel full up. And I think this is a very, very mistaken way of looking at it because I've always thought that those of us who eat a lot, it's not because we have huge appetites, it's because we have this great genius, which is that we can eat when we're not hungry. I like food, but I I don't like

Presenter2:30

eating constantly and I don't have huge portions all the time. Do you steal to the fridge before you go to bed, padding across the darkness and stick your finger in the trifle? I can feel very pleased with myself that I've just had

Nigella Lawson2:34

I

Speaker 32:34

Uh

Nigella Lawson2:34

Be

Nigella Lawson2:39

Yeah, yeah.

Nigella Lawson2:41

Yeah.

Presenter2:44

Nice lunch, good dinner, but nothing in between, and then at 11 o'clock at night, there I am with a packet of peanuts or whatever. But those are the sins of the domestic goddess. I mean, do you regret putting that into the public domain? Well, you know, the thing is, when I wrote the book, it was so clearly ironic, and it was written from the point of view that if you are not a domestic goddess, this is what you do to make yourself feel like one. But then after a while, something has a life of its own, and it's rather pathetic to be bleating, you know, like, but that's not me, and I'm not a domestic goddess. So I kind of think, well, go with it. You know, as a columnist, as you know, not a food columnist, just a general, you know, ranter and sounder offer. I know that a lot of the things that were said about how to be a domestic goddess, I'd have written myself had I still been writing a column. So, you know, one can't suddenly get po-faced and

Presenter3:31

And serious. I think one shouldn't really take oneself that seriously. So I'm okay with it. Okay. Let's cut and run to the Desert Island and hear your first record. What's it to be and why?

Presenter3:41

Sugar Sugar by The Archies Well

Presenter3:44

I hear the beginning of that record and I smile, and I remember singing

Presenter3:48

With it. I can't sing, so probably miming. I mean, I still have to mime happy birthdays at my children's parties, unfortunately. I long to be a singer. And I also remember.

Presenter3:57

going shopping with my mother and she was sort of trying on maxi dresses or in bibo with lovely sort of high dusty pink suede boots and that playing in the background. So I suppose it it reminds me of my childhood in in a positive way.

Speaker 34:15

Sugar

Speaker 34:18

Honey, honey.

Speaker 34:22

You are my candy girl.

Speaker 34:25

And you got me wanting you

Speaker 34:30

Honey Allah, sugar, sugar

Speaker 34:37

Do a match

Presenter4:41

Arches and sugar sugar and memories for you, Nigella Lawson, of shopping with your mother and your sister in Kensington High Street. What did you look like then? What sort of gear were you wearing? Well, gear is so the appropriate word. In fact,

Nigella Lawson4:51

Yeah.

Presenter4:54

I think we used to go to a shop in Kings Row called Kids in Gear. At that stage, really, we'd moved into looking like we were the sort of backing singers for some big star, which is that we'd have coordinating clothes, but not exactly the same. So I might be in a little mini skirt and flouncy shirt, and my sister Thomasina would be in trousers and a flouncy shirt and a waist skirt, so it was all kind of a bit this but, you know, slightly a mixture between hippie and uh pre-Chick era. But something must have um changed between then and your being a grown-up or a young woman, because apparently when you met John, John Diamond, whom you were to marry in your Sunday Times office, you sort of looked

Nigella Lawson5:32

It moves on the

Presenter5:35

Frumpy, dumpy, flat shoes, baggy, this, that, and the other. And he said, come on, let's get you dressed up. Yes, I don't know that I.

Nigella Lawson5:40

Yeah.

Presenter5:42

But I don't know that's how I describe myself or how everyone else would. I certainly wasn't one of those girls who went into the office in a mini skirt and high heels. You know, I did actually look like an art student most of the time. You know, I always h have a theory which is you can never be too obvious for a man, so I think that he just wanted me to wear little, you know, tight dresses with you know spaghetti straps. He didn't kind of remake my image. I mean I I but allegedly he gave you great confidence. I think that your brother Dominic said that at his funeral, that that he ga gave you what you really lacked, which was an ability to stand up for yourself and be have confidence in what you were doing.

Nigella Lawson6:05

But allegedly he gave

Nigella Lawson6:07

I think that that your brother Dominic said that and that

Nigella Lawson6:11

That bitch

Nigella Lawson6:14

Yeah.

Presenter6:20

I think on the whole you've done well in life if you if you find people who make you feel good about yourself. I know a lot of people.

Presenter6:28

Seem pointedly to team up with those who undermine them. And that's n that, I'm glad to say, I have many failings, but that's not been one of them.

Nigella Lawson6:32

And uh

Presenter6:36

But you were apparently, um, by your own account, you know, quite an odd little girl. You had spent this time through your childhood and into your teens.

Nigella Lawson6:40

I've spent

Presenter6:44

Being rather kind of remote and silent, hadn't you? Yes, I did. My my mother, I think, thought I was autistic for a while because I didn't ever speak. You know, it always sounds so ridiculous. I don't really think I was suited to the state of childhood. I really didn't like being a child. I was unhappy for a lot of the time. Not not in a big dramatic way.

Presenter7:03

But I wasn't comfortable.

Presenter7:05

with it. I just didn't s that didn't suit it, and I remember

Presenter7:09

When I was about nineteen, lying in bed one morning thinking

Presenter7:12

You know, whatever else happens in my life, nothing can be as bad ever again. And I was right. You were born to be a grown-up. I was born to be a grown-up.

Nigella Lawson7:18

You were born to be a grown-up.

Presenter7:21

What seems odd is that apparently I mean I said erratic school career you were so silent at home yet you were expelled from school. So you must have been too stressed often. I was in fact for a long time.

Nigella Lawson7:24

You must

Nigella Lawson7:25

At home get you a sir.

Nigella Lawson7:27

Not threatened often.

Presenter7:31

My parents thought that they'd got the child wrong at school because they were so quiet at home and didn't say anything, was a non-existent person. And they kept having this school report saying Nigella is disruptive, she's noisy, she's a troublemaker. He thought, you know, really, they could really, you know, take the trouble to know what child they're writing the report for. And then after a while it dawned on them that perhaps they had a jekyll and hide for a disorder. My father, of course, you know, anything for an easy life, said, Well, I suppose you're either naughty at school or at home and this is the right way around. You know, he thought at least he got the best end of the bargain. Record number two. Yakey Yake by Maury Canty. Now, I've never been one of those people who likes deep, meaningful records with intense lyrics. I think if you want to have something to think about, you should read a book. But I like music that makes you want to dance or just is uplifting.

Nigella Lawson7:54

They had a Jekyll and Hyde for a daughter.

Speaker 38:33

It's so current melody. Imagine my elo, can I be laughing?

Speaker 38:46

I take it in the morning.

Presenter8:54

That was Yakey Yakey by Maury Canty, and that was the hard floor mix, Nigel. Now you understand these things. What does it mean?

Presenter9:06

Not for the likes of me, no question. But but apparently for the likes of your husband, your new husband, Charles Saatchi, he likes to be. Well, he doesn't go clubbing, but he likes the music. I kind of enjoy the thing of being with an older man who has really kept me abreast with contemporary music. I mean, otherwise, really, I I don't think it would be quite be, you know, ABBA and everything, but it might not be that much better.

Nigella Lawson9:08

No, well,

Presenter9:26

What about food as a child? We know from your book How to Eat that your mother was a terrific cook. I mean was she a domestic goddess?

Nigella Lawson9:32

I mean we'll see it.

Presenter9:35

No, not remotely. My mother was a wonderful cook, but she often cooked, you know, with immense resentment and bad temper. She wasn't enormously fancy and she didn't do recipes. I mean, I was fifteen before I realized that people cooked from cookery books. I mean, she just cooked, which was a very good training for me. You know, she believed in child labour. So we had an I think it was called New World, a New World cooking range. Yes. And we'd she'd put a kind of rickety kitchen chair up against it and we would be s put to stand stirring the white sauce or

Nigella Lawson9:57

Yeah.

Presenter10:05

when she was making mayonnaise, we'd have to whisk and do all the heavy work. So it was y she didn't teach so much as ex we just sort of picked it up. But she didn't eat herself. Well she didn't didn't. She went through periods. And I don't know whether she was buliic or anorexic, but she certainly lost an awful lot of weight and as all people do when they

Presenter10:26

Become self-deniers. She became something of a sort of food pusher, and we all put on weight.

Presenter10:32

So you were made to eat everything on your plate, were you? Oh, well, I w I was brought up in that way. I mean, I didn't eat. I mean, it's quite interesting.

Nigella Lawson10:34

Blah.

Presenter10:39

you know, given that I eat a lot now, you it's strange because when I was a very small child it was that regime where you stayed at at the table until you'd eaten everything and

Presenter10:49

I

Presenter10:50

Constantly wouldn't. I mean, I don't think this is because I hated food. I think it's probably because.

Presenter10:55

You know, there are very few ways of having any power as a child, and mealtimes is one of them, probably. What was the longest you ever sat there then, do you think? Four and a half hours.

Presenter11:05

Your mother also apparently did something that you call atmosphered. Yes, she atmosphered a lot. Can you explain that? Well, she would never say exactly what was wrong or why she was unhappy or angry, but

Presenter11:19

There would be a sort of beam, a silent beam, all around her which kind of made it stress inducing. So you knew something was wrong, but you had to pick it up. The the impression one has in all of this though is that your father, who was of course Nigel Lawson, who was to become Chancellor of the Exchequer and all that sort of well known politician, was sort of the cheery chappie in this household, yes?

Nigella Lawson11:32

We'll see you.

Presenter11:38

Well, I suppose he was a cheery chappie, but um

Presenter11:42

Yes, I suppose that's that's that that is right.

Presenter11:45

Domestically he wasn't around a lot because fathers weren't then and also he was a young man you know, my parents married very young. He was a young man trying to make his way in in journalism and then politics. Did he give you a budget? Did he did he do to you what he did eventually to all of us?

Nigella Lawson12:00

What?

Presenter12:01

Yeah, he did when I was I suppose before I'm trying to think when I was sort of about sixteen, seventeen, he did decide I could have an allowance and he wouldn't say what it was. I had to write down everything I needed and how much it cost and say how much I needed, which I think came to twenty four pounds a month. That was for everything. You know, I had to buy absolutely everything myself and of course the first month I blew it all in a pair of cowboy boots. But I was very pleased to have done that. But I was quite independent. I mean when I was fourteen

Presenter12:30

I lied about my age so that I could get a holiday job in Revelle in Kenton High Street. I didn't want to be supported by my parents. I did want to be independent. And I think that's the path to happiness, I have to say. The other saving grace in it all as well seems to me to have been your brother Dominic, who's three years older than you, who just thought you were terrific, or presumably still does.

Nigella Lawson12:48

Per three years.

Nigella Lawson12:50

Yeah.

Presenter12:54

Well, I I have to say it's

Presenter12:57

I think he's had a very beneficial influence on me in that I was talking earlier about I have no desire to be with someone who undermines me and

Presenter13:05

I suppose that the good thing about having such a doting older brother is that

Presenter13:09

It's it's made me see that, you know, it is perfectly all right to be a daughter. I'm quite happy with that. And don't find any fault with it, and and uh how can that be bad?

Presenter13:20

Record number three. Um well this is Boney M, Daddy Cool, and I've I've chosen the remix uh Daddy Cool 2001.

Speaker 313:28

She's crazy like

Speaker 313:32

What about Daddy Uncle?

Speaker 313:52

She's crazy about her daddy.

Presenter13:57

Only M and Daddy Cool two thousand and one. There's going to be a lot of dancing on this island by the light of the silvery moon.

Speaker 314:03

My name

Presenter14:06

Tell me about meeting John. How did it happen? This was, what, 1988? Yes, I was I worked I was the deputy literary editor of the Sunday Times and he worked on the travel pages which were next door and I saw him a lot and um you know we chatted. I didn't think anything of it. I thought what a nice person, you know, pity he's not my type. And but then we you know started chatting. I think we were in the design department. We were both making up our pages at the same time. And he just made me laugh and I was you know, I was friends with him and then you know went on to more than that. It all took off as you say. You discovered he was your type and it all happened and you were married. Well I discovered that there's no such thing as types making. Well right.

Nigella Lawson14:39

Discover T Book.

Nigella Lawson14:42

Oh, I discovered

Nigella Lawson14:44

Yeah.

Presenter14:45

1992, quick secret marriage in Venice, all very romantic and so on, and then two children, Mimi and Bruno. And then of course in nineteen ninety seven he was diagnosed with throat cancer. I mean it must, as I've indicated again in the introduction, have been a particularly terrible moment for you because you had already seen your mother and your sister die of cancer. I mean there must have been that you visiting ill fortune on people you love.

Nigella Lawson15:05

Mm-hmm.

Presenter15:10

Well

Presenter15:11

I don't consciously think that, although I know I used to make jokes about being Typhoid Mary, so obviously, you know, somewhere in my subconscious there must have been that.

Nigella Lawson15:19

Uh

Presenter15:20

But I think there's something about feeling that you're returning to a familiar.

Presenter15:26

territory, that the landscape is so grim, but it's one you know, and that's difficult. You're right. I mean, there's a mixture between guilt and anger. I mean, survivor's guilt is quite well documented and it it is very difficult, you know, seeing other people suffer.

Presenter15:42

This is something that's happening at cell level and you can do nothing. And that's very that is very difficult. You have to you know, there's no control. But then that's something that you know do you learn that all the important things in life

Nigella Lawson15:46

Mm.

Presenter15:56

Uh beyond one's control. And certainly outwardly you appeared to cope very well in a very controlled way, and we know this because you let cameras into your lives during that that time and we saw you kissing him goodbye as he went in for the first operation on his tongue and so on.

Nigella Lawson16:02

Beware me.

Nigella Lawson16:06

Seem to you.

Nigella Lawson16:10

Yeah.

Presenter16:14

It was very intimate, that I can't understand you making that decision to let that. I didn't really make that decision. I'll tell you what happened, which is that.

Nigella Lawson16:16

That

Speaker 316:16

Yeah.

Nigella Lawson16:16

You're just making that

Nigella Lawson16:19

But doesn't it

Presenter16:23

John said to me

Presenter16:25

The B B C wanted to make a documentary, and I said.

Presenter16:28

Absolutely not. I mean, uh, no question. And he said, Look, I've already said yes.

Presenter16:34

You know, and it's difficult'cause it's very hard to be cross with someone.

Presenter16:37

I mean, he often played this card. It is very hard to be cross with someone when they've been diagnosed with cancer. I was cross, though. I mean, obviously, I was upset rather more than cross. But he said to me, look, it would really help me. And then, to be honest, there was no choice. I don't really care if it helped him. Really, I would have done anything. And it was his case. So I did it. It was certainly his way of coping with it. Because we should remind people, of course, that he wrote about it every week in his Times concert. His way of coping with it was to go public with it all at every turn, no matter how. Single. I know, I know. And if it helped him, I knew what I was doing. I mean, I think that.

Nigella Lawson16:55

And it wasn't.

Nigella Lawson16:57

Because we

Nigella Lawson17:00

Breaking him.

Nigella Lawson17:01

Yeah.

Nigella Lawson17:04

Call it all.

Nigella Lawson17:06

And every single final

Presenter17:13

the decisions I would make differently now. I mean, now that

Presenter17:16

It couldn't help.

Presenter17:18

Hidden.

Presenter17:20

But at the time I think

Presenter17:22

You know, the priority is so clear. And to tell the truth,

Presenter17:27

What's going on is so awful that you stop thinking about, oh, and I've got the cameras there. I mean, I'm quite a controlled person, so I don't don't think I ever would ever want to go in for

Nigella Lawson17:33

Yeah.

Presenter17:36

uh weeping and sobbing and you know deep confessionals. I mean I

Presenter17:39

You know, there's a lot that goes on inside that doesn't need to be given, you know, huge public expression.

Presenter17:45

I in the end I'd rather be um

Presenter17:48

Perhaps lacking caution than be so cagey that I'm not comfortable.

Presenter17:53

Record number four. Record number four. Um this is the Mavericks dance night away and um John and I used to dance to this at home and we had a big party when his sound's kind of down, but I don't mean it to be down, I mean it to be up, where when his cancer was found to be terminal. And I remember dancing to this

Nigella Lawson17:55

And this is

Presenter18:10

I hope that my children have memories of some happy and good times, because obviously a lot of their very young lives are so clouded with hospital visits and illness and unhappiness. But this is this seems to me to be a very happy moment from a happy marriage.

Speaker 318:29

Here comes my happiness again.

Speaker 318:36

Right back to where it should have been.

Speaker 318:43

Cause now she's gone and I am free.

Speaker 318:50

And she can't do a thing to me

Presenter18:59

The Mavericks and Dance the Night Away. Let's talk some more about cooking, Nigela, or eating. I mean, we know about comfort eating, but yours is kind of comfort cooking, really. It's what you do.

Nigella Lawson19:04

Yeah.

Nigella Lawson19:04

We know.

Presenter19:09

when you know you're rattled or it's a sort of soothing ritual. Well there's certain sorts of cooking I think that that can be very comforting. Any cooking which involves sort of mindless repetitive activity.

Presenter19:21

I think that cooking often takes up so much more space, it's a sort of worry space in your head. So often there are days you think, oh, I just can't you know, I can't face cooking, I'm so shattered and you feel rather irritable. But I find if I do something and when I say cooking, I don't actually mean necessarily cooking, I mean, you know, making something to eat. And there is something about, you know, you slice a mozzarella, you slice a tomato, you put it on a plate, pour some oil over it, a bit of salt, and I find just doing that sort of thing can make me calm down a bit.

Presenter19:50

In a way why I like writing about cooking as well as cooking is that I feel I come from the same point as my readers and that I have no training and I'm not a chef, so I'm not going to expect anything

Presenter20:02

Clever or dexterous, because really that would be beyond me. And it's really about.

Presenter20:07

that feeling of being in a home, which for me cooking is about.

Presenter20:11

But it's the joy of feeding people as well, isn't it? That's the answer I get from you, that you want people to come to your table and say, enjoy. I know, I'm afraid that's that is true. I like feeding people.

Nigella Lawson20:11

But it's the joy of

Nigella Lawson20:13

Yeah, isn't it?

Nigella Lawson20:18

Yes.

Presenter20:23

I like giving pleasure, I like taking pleasure, and I think it is about that I always feel slightly.

Presenter20:28

I'm worried, Sonnet, if people don't take pleasure in food, if they don't allow themselves to eat, I kind of feel they're not really allowing themselves to live, or they're not taking pleasure in life.

Presenter20:36

And certainly your your methods uh of cooking are quite informal. You don't measure anything and you dollop a bit more of this and you stick your fingers in and it's all kind of quite a cake. Because you've got your fingers in these little bits of gooey and voluptuous and things, that this this phrase, and again I think it was your own phrase, wasn't it? Gastro pawn.

Nigella Lawson20:47

Mm.

Speaker 320:51

Yeah.

Speaker 320:53

Yeah.

Speaker 320:57

Yes.

Presenter20:58

Yes, I it was my airphrase in my first book, and then I thought I'd use it as a preemptive strike against myself because I knew what was coming after I did that T V series. But but it got interpreted, I suppose, that that your style of cooking and presenting these fragrances was a kind of

Nigella Lawson21:08

Pay

Nigella Lawson21:11

To these pregnancy

Presenter21:13

Culinary come on. Yes. Did that horrify you?

Nigella Lawson21:14

Yeah.

Presenter21:16

Well, I think that food is sexy. When I'm talking to a camera, I feel it is quite intimate. And I feel I'm talking to a sister or to a friend. I don't I'm not trying to be alluring. On the other hand, if you're going to be tagged with anything, I mean that's better than a lot of things that could get thrown at me, so.

Presenter21:35

Record number five. Record number five is Teenage Dirt Bag by Woetus. I do quite like this. I love the title. My children love it and

Presenter21:45

I we play, you know, musical statues, things like that, or little discos. I'm not very good at that kind of. I'm not really.

Presenter21:51

a sort of children's television presenter, kind of a mother.

Presenter21:54

I can do cuddling, I can do talking, I can do watching videos, and I can do dancing.

Presenter22:01

But unfortunately now my children are of an age when my dancing embarrasses them. So, anyway, this is just I'm still allowed to dance to this with them.

Speaker 322:15

Yeah.

Speaker 322:17

Oh bell

Speaker 322:18

Cause I'm just a teenage top bad baby Yeah, I'm just a teenage bad baby

Presenter22:38

Wheatus and teenage dirt bag and memories of playing musical statues with kids. How did they take to the move from Shepherd's Bush to Eaton Square, which is what what you did actually quite recently?

Nigella Lawson22:49

It actually quite researched very well.

Presenter22:52

Children I think are quite conservative and they like to be part of a family.

Presenter22:58

And I think they

Presenter23:03

relieved in some way not to have the responsibility, which I think they felt it to be, of just being, you know, the the three of us huddled.

Presenter23:11

Um but apparently m Mimi reassured you're terrible to our children when I said to look, darling, I know we're moving and I I think it could be quite difficult and you know I tried to do all that and she said in a very patronizing way Mummy, I don't want to be rude, but Eden Square is a lot nicer than Shepherd's Bush, you know.

Nigella Lawson23:13

And now

Presenter23:31

How old is she? She's ten. She is nine. I think she was probably eight then, but still.

Nigella Lawson23:37

But still.

Presenter23:38

Now you married, as everyone knows, Charles Saatchi, who was a family friend and a Scrabble playing partner of John's. He, as we know, is famously private. He can't possibly be, from everything we see with you and hear from you, the nature of the person you are, he can't possibly be so austere and antisocial. You'd never have fancied him a million years ago. But he's not austere and antisocial.

Nigella Lawson23:58

And steam a million years, wouldn't you be

Presenter24:02

It's a very difficult question to answer what someone is like in a very warm.

Presenter24:06

enormously alive full of passion and energy, and I I like that in a person. Not wanting pub you know, the public thing is not the same as being antisocial because you want your friends and you want t to have a nice sort of hubbub of people around you. You don't necessarily want the gossip columns and the photographers, and that is a different thing.

Nigella Lawson24:22

Yeah.

Presenter24:27

If you feel you have the good will and love.

Presenter24:30

of people who know you, it's a bit irrational.

Presenter24:33

to start worrying too much about whether you're liked or not by people who don't know you.

Presenter24:37

And so vaguely mad, really. Vaguely mad. I mean, you've told me you still have all the newspapers everywhere because you're a hack at heart, and all the newspapers coming. But I still have to say that. You know, funny enough, I'd have thought I would be much more

Speaker 224:38

Uh

Speaker 324:38

Vaguely mad, really.

Speaker 224:39

And then on the other hand, but you still live in the

Speaker 324:44

DS

Nigella Lawson24:45

Yeah.

Speaker 324:45

Yeah.

Nigella Lawson24:45

Yeah.

Speaker 324:46

But

Presenter24:51

over sensitive about everything because I am quite sensitive, as you know the the very good definition of sensitive being vain and touchy. But I am quite sensitive and also highly strong and a bit of a nightmare. But for some reason

Presenter25:05

Maybe it's maturity. I don't know. I seem to have developed a sense of proportion. Not always. If someone is deliberately trying to be wounding, the chances are they will succeed and it will wound. But I don't think I let it define what I think I am.

Nigella Lawson25:15

Hmm.

Presenter25:19

You have suffered a lot of tragedy, as we've heard, you know, the deaths of all these people. I suppose that you are bound to have a

Nigella Lawson25:22

Yeah.

Presenter25:25

A more profound take on life, aren't you? I wish that were true, though. I don't know that it is true. One of the things that gets you through.

Presenter25:33

sort of serious suffering is that you never lose I didn't the trivial aspect. I used to say to John sometimes, Look, I know this is really awful, but I still feel I have the right to mind

Presenter25:43

If I put on Half Stone, I still want to mind about that. Not that I do want to mind about it, but you know, I still want that to be, you know, as real in life. Everything coexists in life. It's both serious and trivial. Record number six. Blue Monday by New Order. There have been many, many remixes of this, and I've struggled to find what I think is the best one.

Presenter26:00

But really again I suppose it's thinking that things are good when you're young but maybe they're better when you get older.

Speaker 326:07

Tooth came before me Literal devocation

Speaker 326:13

On the past or the token facial

Speaker 326:17

Go to me now.

Speaker 326:32

There's a watch to break

Presenter26:36

New Order and Blue Monday. What next then, Nigel? Obviously, you don't ha have to work now. I do have to work. I'd go mad if I didn't work. I'm working on a book.

Speaker 326:43

Do

Nigella Lawson26:43

Yeah.

Nigella Lawson26:44

Go mad if I didn't work.

Presenter26:47

the moment which I hope will be

Presenter26:49

It's slightly more like my first book, How to Eat, in that it'll have a lot of writing in it. What about singing? I keep hearing you say that you'd like to sing. You've had lessons. I have had lessons.

Nigella Lawson26:55

Ping.

Nigella Lawson26:57

Yeah.

Nigella Lawson26:58

Didn't I

Presenter27:00

Ian Adam, who's

Presenter27:02

apparently can teach anyone to sing and

Presenter27:05

He was very nice to me, but I think it was just nice. But this is recently you've done this?

Presenter27:11

I've always felt that it would be wonderful to be able to sing, and one of the great things about when your children are very, very young is that they think you can sing, whereas now they stop me. I need a very, very good producer. I have my hopes pinned on Doctor Dre, who I think is a genius. I kind of have an idea that what I'd like here is a bit of Tosca. You know, it's Maria Callis by Doctor Dre. He's coming up. He's coming up. He's coming up. But just tell me one thing. I mean, obviously, the other thing people speculate about you is whether you might have more children. Do you think you might?

Nigella Lawson27:35

But just a moment.

Presenter27:43

I don't think I will. I think it's quite natural for a woman, if you're a love of someone, to want to have a baby. And I've said that as a kind of prelude to saying, but nevertheless, I don't think I will. I think had I been my age without any children, then of course I would feel very, very differently. But obviously, when you have two children, you don't have a desperation. At least, I don't think you have a desperation for a child, and I certainly don't.

Presenter28:04

Probably.

Presenter28:06

The fact that I feel so doubtful means it's a no. But if it happened you wouldn't be unhappy.

Presenter28:12

I wouldn't let it happen. I'm I don't plan anything in life except for my children.

Presenter28:17

Uh

Presenter28:18

Next record. So uh yes, well this is Eminem who I I

Presenter28:22

I think he is

Presenter28:25

Really such genius. I love the mixture of beautiful music and hate.

Speaker 228:33

I got some skeletons in my closet and I don't know if no one knows it. So before they throw me inside my coffin and close it, I'ma expose it. I'll take you back to 73. Before I ever had a multi-platinum selling CD, I was a baby, maybe I was just a couple of months. My fing father musta had his panties up in a bunch. Cause he split, I wonder if he even kissed me goodbye. No, I don't on second thought. I just f wished he would die. I look at Haley.

Presenter29:00

M in M and cleaning out my closet. How much do you think you've changed, Nigella, over the years really, that essentially we've been talking about? You know, we hear about the slightly lacking in self-confidence girl in the art department of the Sunday Downs in nineteen eighty eight and

Nigella Lawson29:08

Tokyo.

Nigella Lawson29:14

Ninety eight.

Presenter29:16

In two thousand and three so much has happened in between. You must be a different person. Well, in a way I am, but in a way I'm not. I mean, that's a fascinating thing to say. But I think, you know, we started off talking about childhood and I think that

Presenter29:28

One of the difficulties about being a child is that you don't really have any power over your circumstances and you're not

Presenter29:34

Independent, and I like independence. I mean, I it's it's funny because I like independence, but I like emotional dependence. I do need

Presenter29:42

You know, I need someone I love and who loves me to make me. Need to be dated on.

Nigella Lawson29:45

To be dated on.

Presenter29:47

And I need a dot, yes. Um, but

Presenter29:50

I think I'm certainly

Presenter29:53

less fr frightened of the world than I used to be. What about the fear of being alone on a desert island? Oh, I would hate it more than I can say. One of my many weaknesses of character is that I don't

Presenter30:06

like being alone. I mean, I love the idea of it. No, I like it more'cause I'm never alone, so I think how nice it must be, but after two minutes I'm on the phone to someone or ah, I can't do it. Last record. The last record is Hey Boy, Hey Girl, it's by the Chemical Brothers.

Nigella Lawson30:15

Yeah.

Presenter30:20

And I love this because I think that probably

Presenter30:23

the m sort of primitive thing about music and what it's there for is to

Presenter30:28

Kind of put one into an ecstatic state. I mean, it can be very refined and it can be.

Presenter30:33

uh very civilized, but really music is about that, about about some sort of transcendental feeling. And I think this makes me feel it's sort of very much my mind is outside somewhere, but one's very much in in the body.

Presenter31:16

Hey boy, hey girl from the Chemical Buzz. I think we've got the atmosphere of your desert island. It's sort of very repetitive kind of. Yes, it is. Maybe my desert island will have to be a beta.

Speaker 331:21

Come in

Presenter31:25

Now, if you could only take one of these eight records, which one would you take? I don't know, because if you only took one, you'd know that it would really drive you mad. But I think probably for echoing among, you know, Against the Hills and as I'm running about trying to find foodstuffs and berries, I think I'd have to have Yeki Yeki by Maury Canty. And your book, as well as the Bible and Shakespeare? Well, the Bible and Shakespeare. I would miss people. I also think that I am prone to great lowness when idle. So I think that thought is the best way of beating off depression. So I think I would.

Presenter32:02

Combine my ideas of thinking about people and life and be very absorbed. I take the whole am I allowed collected works? Not really, no. I can't have all the Freud.

Nigella Lawson32:09

That's

Presenter32:11

No, because it's not in one volume.

Speaker 332:14

This account

Presenter32:15

Not really. Oh no, well he each volume is too short.

Presenter32:19

Can't have the Divine Comedy, see if I can get my Italian back up to scratch. Why not?

Presenter32:24

And what about your luxury?

Presenter32:27

My luxury. I think my luxury would be the possibility of a very pleasant exit with a bottle of liquid to Mazepam.

Presenter32:36

I kind of feel a bit that a lot of life is made more bearable if you feel you have some choice and some control. I had my bottle of liquid to maspam, so I knew if things if I really couldn't bear it, I could escape.

Presenter32:47

then maybe I would be able to stay with it a bit.

Presenter32:51

Angela Lawson, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear you at Desert Island Discs.

Nigella Lawson33:01

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.