Franco Zeffirelli

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and three, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:23

Mike Costaway this week is an opera, theatre, and film director. His own life sounds like an operatic plot. The illegitimate son of a Florentine textile merchant and a fashion designer, he spent his early years in hiding with a wet nurse, was taken under the wing of expatriate Englishwomen, fought with the partisans against the fascists, has escaped death on several occasions, including in a car crash with Gina Lolla Brigida. And there's more, much more. From this exotic background grew an exotic talent. Famous productions of the operatic repertoire with Callas, Gobby, Sutherland, and Domingo as his stars, famous films of Shakespeare with Richard Burton, Elizabeth Taylor, and Mel Gibson in the great roles, and the theatre, including a famously irreverent production of Much Ado About Nothing at the National. Now eighty years old, his production of Pirandello's Absolutely Perhaps has just opened in the West End, his E Pagliacci opens at Covent Garden this summer, and his latest film about the last days of Maria Callas is released in the autumn. His talent and his drive are patently undiminished. If I stop, then I die, he said. He is, of course, Franco Zeffarelli. So this is your British comeback, is it, Mr Zeffarelli?

Franco Zeffirelli1:35

Well, not literally, graphical, yes, because uh if you look at the calendar I've been away from the English stage for twenty five years, is it?

Franco Zeffirelli1:44

But I've been in constant communication with the English theater, English actors, because in all my pitches uh uh I wouldn't be able to cast any film without uh

Franco Zeffirelli1:53

The help and collaboration and inspiration of English actors.

Presenter1:56

And Joan Plowright, of course, in particular.

Franco Zeffirelli1:57

John Florent has been throughout in many, many, many films. I mean, 50% of my cast in my films were British English. So what is.

Presenter2:05

So what is it? And it's also English women in many ways. I mean, and of course we remember famously, most recently, Tea with Mussolini and Joan Plowright was there, Maggie Smith, Judy Dench. You have a fascination for English women, hm? Well. It's a theme in your life.

Franco Zeffirelli2:11

Near Hannah.

Franco Zeffirelli2:20

I wouldn't put it uh so so so neatly like that. It's it's simply that women uh it is more exciting and inspiring uh for um a director like me because uh if you really come to know a woman, any woman, you find a a very warm heart.

Franco Zeffirelli2:39

And that heart is what I look for in people. It's very diffic more difficult to find

Franco Zeffirelli2:46

The heart of men, because they defend their heart men, we defend our heart je very jealously. We don't allow people to come intrude.

Presenter2:54

But looking for people's hearts is

Presenter2:57

Many would say, what's been the great trick of your becoming such a great director? Because y you've dealt with these great egos, men's as well. I mean the Taylors I mentioned, Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, for example, you've dealt with Callas. Huge egos, and yet, you know, you've always got on and drawn the best out of them.

Franco Zeffirelli3:14

No matter how big a person is successful, they remain people.

Franco Zeffirelli3:20

were born, live and die. We are all the same kind of uh instruments of divine providence. We have in common so much. We laugh and cry for the same jokes and the same tragedies.

Presenter3:32

Sure, but what you talk about or what you describe surely is a kind of love. It's a love of mankind, isn't it?

Franco Zeffirelli3:38

The issue is very simple. You can't escape love.

Franco Zeffirelli3:42

in life. No matter how cynical or away from any sentimental uh uh bent of your life, or no matter what, in the end you are vulnerable there because you are born out of love. The all the entire creation is an act of love of who created it. It is evident in any anything you you see in life.

Presenter4:06

But essentially what you're saying is that that love is the engine of life and it's certainly been the engine of your work. And I want to talk to you about both your life and your work, but I want to pause for a piece of music. What's the first record you'd like to take to your desert artist?

Franco Zeffirelli4:20

Well, there is one thing one area that is so is so beautiful for me that uh at one moment when I was a senator

Franco Zeffirelli4:28

I tried to pass a law to make it become our national anthem.

Franco Zeffirelli4:33

except that the words don't don't match because it is the anguished uh chorus of the Jews at the end of a day like slaves and they have that moment to recollect and remember the Israel which has been destroyed and abandoned and they hope to come back free.

Franco Zeffirelli4:52

Vapenciero.

Speaker 45:07

What's the thing to all

Speaker 45:42

This is all

Franco Zeffirelli5:45

This will

Presenter5:53

Vappenziero, the chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's Nabucco with the chorus and orchestra of La Scala Milan conducted by Claudio Abardo.

Franco Zeffirelli6:00

And then blow my nose. I'm very very moved whenever I hear it.

Presenter6:02

Okay

Presenter6:05

No.

Franco Zeffirelli6:05

Thank you.

Franco Zeffirelli6:07

Alright.

Presenter6:08

Okay.

Franco Zeffirelli6:08

Like this.

Presenter6:09

I was saying in the introduction that your origins, your early life, indeed your later life, reads like a kind of Puccini opera. You were born out of wedlock, weren't you? Both your parents were married to other people.

Franco Zeffirelli6:19

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli6:20

Yeah. Only had this extraordinary mother who's a

Franco Zeffirelli6:23

She was really.

Presenter6:26

She was ruined, was she, by the shame of producing the music.

Franco Zeffirelli6:29

It was a shame at the time, you know, in the early twenties and especially in the society so locked up, like uh there was no divorce, no idea even of separation, yet my father was happily married or not happily married, but

Franco Zeffirelli6:42

regularly married with another lady and they had a daughter and my m my m mother had been uh since uh very young, she had uh she was married and they had three children.

Franco Zeffirelli6:53

and they both met when they were forty.

Franco Zeffirelli6:56

And this uh backlash of love from tho both ends created that sparkle that they couldn't resist. They were completely swept away by it and

Presenter7:07

But you couldn't, as I understand it, bear either of their names because that was not done. And in that month, is this right?

Franco Zeffirelli7:07

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli7:11

And at that point,

Presenter7:15

Child illegitimate children had to be called by a name beginning with Z.

Franco Zeffirelli7:19

Not the month, the day. So th the every day, Monday was uh A, Tuesday was B, C, the and and my name, my letter day was Z.

Franco Zeffirelli7:31

So my mother was asked what name she would like to give me.

Franco Zeffirelli7:36

And she loved uh she was a pianist also.

Franco Zeffirelli7:39

She loved Mozart's Nomenea.

Franco Zeffirelli7:42

And

Franco Zeffirelli7:43

There was an area for Falle Zefiritti.

Franco Zeffirelli7:46

And she said Jefferit.

Franco Zeffirelli7:48

But then

Presenter7:48

Little breezes.

Franco Zeffirelli7:48

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli7:49

It'll be the man in transcribing it is instead of

Franco Zeffirelli7:54

T's put uh the L's.

Presenter7:56

But it is

Franco Zeffirelli7:56

But he eats it.

Presenter7:59

There's a suggestion in Tea with Mussolini, which is semi autobiographical, isn't it, that in fact your mother might not have borne this child, you, that she might have aborted you, but she chose despite the great shame that it would bring on her head.

Franco Zeffirelli8:13

They're all all after her, you know, to convince her to drop me, and she said, No, this is the child of my love and uh she

Franco Zeffirelli8:22

That's why I'm so dead against abortion.

Presenter8:25

You campaigned against abortion, haven't you?

Franco Zeffirelli8:26

Yeah. I think it's the greatest crime ever.

Franco Zeffirelli8:30

Worse than other any other crime. You can't deny a child the right to exist.

Presenter8:35

You ended up living with her and sleeping in her narrow bed with her as she suffered again, we're back really to Bohem and Traviarta, here with this sort of consumptive mother.

Franco Zeffirelli8:43

We are dealing with this sort of

Franco Zeffirelli8:45

I would like to re remember those moments because it's very painful.

Franco Zeffirelli8:50

She was all alone. Everybody was against her. Just a few friends. Uh few friends. My aunt, they were holding her hand and support her. But in the end pain killed her. She had, I don't know, what kind of illness and she died when I was six.

Presenter9:05

You were six years old.

Franco Zeffirelli9:07

And I was uh taken by this aunt who was uh we didn't have children.

Franco Zeffirelli9:12

My father

Franco Zeffirelli9:14

who could not absolutely recognize that uh he was my father, but nevertheless he kept paying all expenses for my education to my aunt.

Presenter9:23

Did you meet him? Did you?

Franco Zeffirelli9:24

Oh yeah, once a week.

Franco Zeffirelli9:26

in very hidden uh corners of the Park of Florence, because they didn't want to be seen with uh anybody.

Franco Zeffirelli9:33

Anyway, that's uh that's alright.

Presenter9:35

You can not have loved him obviously as much as you loved your mother.

Franco Zeffirelli9:39

No, I

Presenter9:40

I I wonder if you've ever loved anyone as much as you loved your mother.

Franco Zeffirelli9:45

I think that she left um

Franco Zeffirelli9:47

I it might be sound might be might sound a bit like easy philosophy, but I think the message of love, the entity of love, is permanent and it passes from one person to the other, especially when that person is giving you life.

Presenter10:02

Tell me about your second record.

Franco Zeffirelli10:04

There is another piece that I

Franco Zeffirelli10:05

It's hit me particularly, especially one performance when last time uh Herbert von Karian conducted. And

Franco Zeffirelli10:14

He chose the piano concerto of Tchaikovsky.

Franco Zeffirelli10:18

With the youngest.

Franco Zeffirelli10:20

a genius that was coming up. And the two of them created, for me, such a uh an allegory of what is life about, what is culture about, is passing the message from one generation to the other.

Franco Zeffirelli10:34

That image has made me this piece, one animal, my most favorite.

Franco Zeffirelli11:39

It's incredibly moving, isn't it? You feel really the energies passing from the orchestra carrion to this kid and now the kid responds and he grabs the lesson and and flies to the others.

Presenter11:45

Uh

Presenter11:49

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli11:50

Uh

Presenter11:50

They

Franco Zeffirelli11:50

Very, very moving.

Presenter11:51

The finale was an out of Tchaikovsky's piano concerto number one, and that was Jevgenikissen with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Karrion.

Franco Zeffirelli11:51

The finale

Presenter12:00

The next woman in your life, I think, as a small boy, was a woman who lived in Florence, but an English woman called Mary O'Neill. Tell me about her.

Franco Zeffirelli12:10

She was one of the many.

Franco Zeffirelli12:12

Hundreds and thousands of British citizens that for one reason or the other, they came and and lived in Florence. Uh, through her I learned apart Shakespeare for the first time and the great theatre and so and notions of what the uh great actors have been or were, but something much more important, the rules of ethics, what is right and what is wrong. Uh, Mussolini had uh was devastating our minds and our hearts with different

Franco Zeffirelli12:40

Completely wrong principles, no idea of democracy, no education of uh the m the the free heart and the free mind. This woman

Franco Zeffirelli12:49

taught me that freedom was freedom of everything was uh the key to

Presenter12:53

See?

Franco Zeffirelli12:55

Life.

Presenter12:56

But you had a natural affinity, did you, for everything that she wanted to teach? You felt at home with her.

Franco Zeffirelli13:01

She was the one who was shown to me the

Franco Zeffirelli13:05

incredible treasures that uh surrounded me. I saw three times a day the David Michelangelo's David. So what?

Franco Zeffirelli13:14

We play football in the in all the cathedrals.

Presenter13:16

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli13:18

So we're very so familiar. Actually we're a bit annoyed by all this fuss about uh be the beauty of Florence. We wanted to have a life that didn't.

Presenter13:25

But she opened your eyes.

Franco Zeffirelli13:26

You must be grateful to God that He has put you in a city like this.

Presenter13:30

Perhaps

Presenter13:33

But as you've implied, you know, you hated Mussolini and it was therefore perfectly natural that by the time the war broke out, because all of that was happening during the course of the thirties, when war broke out, you joined the the partisans.

Presenter13:45

You were fighting in those hills, living out in those hills, the Tuscan hills that we now think of as Chiantisha, you know?

Franco Zeffirelli13:49

What's the we now?

Franco Zeffirelli13:52

What is not of it?

Presenter13:53

But history relates that in fact life was pretty rough and tough up there.

Franco Zeffirelli13:58

It just didn't tell you how difficult it was.

Presenter14:00

How how terrible was it?

Franco Zeffirelli14:01

experienced on our on our skin the blood, the cold, the hunger and and the horrors that were around us. No, I don't want to open the chapter. You can imagine what it was, really bombing and the Germans uh slaughtering

Presenter14:12

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli14:15

Hundreds of innocent people just for reprisals because they had fed us.

Presenter14:19

There was one incident, was there not, when

Franco Zeffirelli14:20

And what

Presenter14:21

Nineteen or so young men, young partisans, were strung up on lampposts in one particular village. And did you witness that?

Franco Zeffirelli14:30

A group of kids of our age ran away from the villages around.

Franco Zeffirelli14:36

We kept kept them uh going, telling them what they had to do.

Franco Zeffirelli14:40

And then

Franco Zeffirelli14:41

Then suddenly we were surrounded by the Germans and the Fascists.

Franco Zeffirelli14:46

and the order was to run away in groups.

Franco Zeffirelli14:49

And th these kids were left behind.

Franco Zeffirelli14:52

They've not been even uh given a weapons, they've just arrived.

Franco Zeffirelli14:57

And we dispersed and the morning after somebody said, You must come and see what the Germans have done And we went down over this village and in the main uh alley of this village were these trees and these eighteen kids had been hung.

Franco Zeffirelli15:14

They captured them and deserters, partisans, and they hanged them. That was one of the most hear raising uh memories of the period. So

Franco Zeffirelli15:24

Then I crossed the lines and um

Franco Zeffirelli15:27

I was adopted by adopted by the Fifth Battalion Scout Guards.

Presenter15:30

I want to ask you about that, but I want to pause for record number three before we talk about that. Tell me about your third record.

Franco Zeffirelli15:37

A memory of the period was after Florence was liberated in summer 44 and that moment very was very popular a song by Bing Crosby, I Walk Alone.

Speaker 415:53

Cause to tell you the truth I'll be lonely

Speaker 416:02

I don't mind being lonely.

Speaker 416:09

When my heart tells me

Speaker 416:13

I'm only too.

Speaker 416:17

I'll walk a l

Presenter16:19

Bean Crosbie, and I walk alone. So you crossed the lines, Franco Zepharelli, eventually, of the advancing British Army, and fell in with the Scots Guards, the First Battalion, and met the next most important person in your life, it seems to me. You met Captain Richard Buckle. Now how did he influence you?

Franco Zeffirelli16:34

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli16:36

Well, he was uh captain of the Scots Guards. Extremely elegant. Everything was in order with this man. Great completely night spritz, uh you know, the kind of Belgravia bruised lips accent and all that. With it little cravash stick on the swagger stick, uh.

Presenter16:51

Little swagger stick under his arm.

Franco Zeffirelli16:54

So I was fascinated by this man, and then I found out he was a very important ballet critic and theatre critic. So I wow

Franco Zeffirelli17:02

I wanted to get all possible information about in English theater, the famous uh

Franco Zeffirelli17:08

Addeginess Hamlet in modern clothes, and was a shock throughout the world. So I wanted to know.

Presenter17:15

And Buckle knew all about all of this. But just spooling on a little bit to after the war, because you then met another incredibly important person in your life, who was of course the legendary Visconti.

Franco Zeffirelli17:25

Yeah.

Presenter17:26

He taught you to be a director, didn't he?

Franco Zeffirelli17:28

Yeah, you give me five years.

Franco Zeffirelli17:30

All possible instructions and uh education in all the fields of the performing arts.

Franco Zeffirelli17:36

He made me design the first produ European production of Street Can Name Desire and I was a kid really.

Franco Zeffirelli17:43

Wonderful success. And then uh Troyus and Cressida was a mega spectacle in in the open air in Florence, in the park.

Franco Zeffirelli17:51

And then

Franco Zeffirelli17:52

A very beautiful production of Three Sisters.

Speaker 417:56

Hmm.

Franco Zeffirelli17:57

And when the people of Scala are so

Franco Zeffirelli18:00

Now this

Franco Zeffirelli18:01

It's like scenery. It's like we must have this boy with it, okay. So they called me and they offered me a contract.

Presenter18:08

We were talking about love earlier. You loved him, didn't you?

Franco Zeffirelli18:11

Oh, deeply and and he really was a a lovable person, but very tough man to d to live with, uh very hard.

Presenter18:18

Was he? Difficult.

Franco Zeffirelli18:20

Very difficult because you didn't let anything slip away from his attention. So you really had to be all the time

Franco Zeffirelli18:26

On the elect.

Presenter18:27

So five years was enough, wasn't it?

Franco Zeffirelli18:29

Yeah, a very tough structure and very warm. Wonderful man, wonderful, lovable man.

Presenter18:32

Very warm.

Presenter18:36

Mecho number four.

Franco Zeffirelli18:37

To my career I have done seven different productions of

Franco Zeffirelli18:41

Don Giovanni, you whatever you do with Don Giovanni, you are in trouble.

Franco Zeffirelli18:46

But it remains for many, I think, the most fascinating

Franco Zeffirelli18:50

Bisot Musical Theatre.

Speaker 418:52

Da Chiara Miria.

Speaker 419:07

For the weak of name with each other.

Speaker 419:25

Flarmia poor.

Speaker 419:37

If you believe the house it does.

Speaker 419:42

We often warn so you forest of you florid.

Presenter19:52

La Cida Rem la Mano put your hand in mine from Mozart's Don Giovanni, sung by Ingva Wixel and Mirella Freine, with the orchestra of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, conducted by Sir Colin Davis.

Presenter20:03

Your greatest successes have really been with the great love stories, haven't they? Whether it's Traviash or Tosca or The Taming of the Shrew or Jane Eyre indeed more recently.

Presenter20:13

It seems to me what you've done is take this thing that everybody knows something about, called love you know, this this thing people either hunger for or enjoy or feel or receive or whatever it is, and and use that to make these great works more accessible to the public, because that's always been your your ambition, hasn't it?

Franco Zeffirelli20:32

Well, I don't like to do a production and then nobody gets to see it. I mean, we all w like to have success. Not so much success in terms of uh written in uh

Presenter20:44

But it's making it accessible, isn't it? And I'm thinking, for example, of your early Romeo and Juliet at the National, round about 1960, I think with Judy Dench and John Stride again.

Franco Zeffirelli20:45

It's excess

Presenter20:53

You invited them, told them, taught them to speak it like spoken English, as opposed to that rather uptight English theatrical method of delivery, didn't you?

Franco Zeffirelli21:03

I invited them to be the characters that Shakespeare wanted. The essence of his purpose was to communicate passions, joys, hatreds, situations and characters to the audience. I grabbed that essential entity in Shakespeare and served it.

Presenter21:21

And then, of course, the Burtons invited you to direct them in Taming of the Shrew, didn't they?

Franco Zeffirelli21:24

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli21:26

Nor Berton came to see he was shooting a film in Ireland, he happened to be in London, went to see this production, I wasn't there, and he went backstage and said, My God, I would give up my right arm to be able to work with this director.

Franco Zeffirelli21:41

And so I went to uh speak with them and uh the whole thing started.

Presenter21:45

Because they were such hot property at the time.

Franco Zeffirelli21:47

My God. It's like talking with God and the degree, huh?

Presenter21:50

How were they difficult?

Franco Zeffirelli21:52

No, not at all. Wonderful.

Presenter21:55

As time went on, all of these people I mean, we've we've name dropped furiously so far in this conversation. You know, that they all became your friends. Many of them came to your beautiful villa which you established near Positano, didn't didn't they?

Franco Zeffirelli22:09

Well still have him. Well, that became a center really. I everything I I made in life, I put it there to embellish it, to make it uh is one of the most beautiful places in the in the world, certainly in the Mediterranean. And it was done, you know, made for being the cradle of uh friends. Larry came all the time with uh Joan and the family.

Presenter22:33

The Oliviers, yes.

Franco Zeffirelli22:34

and Carlos Kleiber, and Carian M. Domingo, and Lenny Bernstein, and Lenny Barzikin.

Franco Zeffirelli22:41

He entertained us every night and play improvising and inventing things. I met uh Lenny at the time he did Wesley Story.

Franco Zeffirelli22:50

And I was absolutely in love with this talent, this man. I was hoping that he would had been sent by heaven to continue opera. That's why I'm so uh so attached to this piece, West Side Story, that I saw in Broadway.

Speaker 423:20

I like the city of San Juan. I know a boat you can get on full bloom. Hundreds of people in each room.

Franco Zeffirelli23:25

Uh

Presenter23:25

Uh

Speaker 423:30

What's the more building I'm bad?

Presenter23:34

Tatiana Trojanis and All the Girls singing America from the musical Westside Story, and that was with the Israel Philharmonic conducted and composed, of course, by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter23:46

Um you shocked everybody, of course, Franco Zeffarelli, when you cast Mel Gibson as Hamlet back in what nineteen ninety, I think. But your critics ate humble pie when they saw it, didn't they? What you gave us

Franco Zeffirelli23:54

Yeah.

Presenter23:59

It seems it was a very sexual interpretation of the play. This was a man who.

Presenter24:04

Perhaps like its director you loved his mother more than anybody else,

Franco Zeffirelli24:08

But it wasn't that that my Hamlet originally was a prince. And the prin princes were brought up to be the best men in every field. You see if you see in the film how he fights the last fight, yeah, it was in command completely because he was the best fighter. So the reason why I wanted Mel Gibson was not an extravaganza for, you know, for box office uh

Franco Zeffirelli24:29

But because I wanted that strong image of a very, very

Presenter24:33

Very.

Franco Zeffirelli24:35

Best boy of Denmark. I insisted upon the vitality and the m virility of this man.

Presenter24:42

And indeed it worked. Would you class it as your best film?

Franco Zeffirelli24:46

I don't I don't want to give category because if you say this is the best the others will cry and and say oh why not me?

Presenter24:53

Okay, I want to talk about your latest film in just a moment, but let's pause for record number six. Tell me about that one.

Franco Zeffirelli24:59

My love for Carmen springs out of my love for Blendy Bernstein, his excitement, the beautiful melodies, but the also the pace of the m the dances and the vision of that world is a big circus. But I'm t I'm remembering one that reminds me of Voisa's story too, that excitement of uh there are the Puerto Ricans and here the gypsies. Would you like to hear it?

Speaker 425:56

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Presenter26:23

That was Maria Callas and the Chanson Boheme from Bizet's Carmen with the Orchestra of the Paris Opera conducted by Georges Pretre.

Presenter26:32

So let's talk about you and Maria Callas. Your film that's about to be released here is of her last forty days.

Presenter26:40

Radister Mark I think it's more than a quarter of a century now since her death, isn't it? She was fifty three.

Presenter26:46

Uh you spent a lot of time resisting making such a film. Why have you decided to do it now?

Franco Zeffirelli26:52

Because it was offered to me as a

Franco Zeffirelli26:55

Saga.

Franco Zeffirelli26:57

Between uh uh those two women, uh Jacqueline Kennedy and uh and Maria Carlos and On Assis. It was a gossip thing they wanted to make the Americans, and I refused because I said unless you do

Franco Zeffirelli27:11

A document, but what Maria Carlas was is it

Franco Zeffirelli27:15

Supreme Artist. I'm not interested.

Presenter27:17

But the truth is that his leaving her for Jacqueline Kennedy, as indeed he'd left Christina, had he not, for Callas, i was devastating for Callas, wasn't it?

Franco Zeffirelli27:29

It's such an a life.

Franco Zeffirelli27:31

She dare recovered.

Presenter27:33

She never recovered.

Franco Zeffirelli27:34

But it happened also in a moment where she is no longer

Franco Zeffirelli27:38

Est Estacho s singer. As a singer, she had lost her voice. She had no children, no friends, or nasis that clearly hoovered the friends around of Carlos.

Presenter27:49

Why would he do that?

Franco Zeffirelli27:50

So he's the what a monster.

Franco Zeffirelli27:52

That's a very evil man.

Presenter27:52

Does this

Presenter27:53

You witnessed him, of course, because you you went on the yacht, Christina, didn't you?

Franco Zeffirelli27:56

We tri we try to sw sweep Mime away too, actually managed for three years.

Franco Zeffirelli28:02

We saw what was happening.

Franco Zeffirelli28:04

This woman was completely abandoning in a position in the supreme position in music and and theatre. I mean, she was only forty.

Franco Zeffirelli28:20

His social barriers. It was not received in

Presenter28:22

It looks nice.

Franco Zeffirelli28:25

Uh in Monaco, for instance, his boats could not go land there.

Presenter28:29

So she was his passport, was she?

Franco Zeffirelli28:31

The image of Mahal it gave him dignity and uh you know.

Presenter28:32

Mm-hmm.

Presenter28:33

You give

Presenter28:35

I gather you at one point in this film superimpose Anassus's face on that of of Scarpia, Tuscus.

Franco Zeffirelli28:42

Well, no, I don't superimpose, but uh it's the intention is clear.

Presenter28:43

No, I don't you don't

Presenter28:46

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli28:46

Yeah. That she wants to kill Scalpia. She wants to kill Onassis. She does it to Scalpia.

Presenter28:53

Do you think she intended to die?

Franco Zeffirelli28:55

She let herself go.

Franco Zeffirelli28:57

She had no reason to fight. She was fifty three of guns, so she was

Franco Zeffirelli29:02

Yeah, the the way to the crisis that every singer crosses in their lives and careers. At one moment they are no longer the in the top shape and uh they m must accept uh the the decline elegantly, but she didn't. But

Franco Zeffirelli29:19

We did not expect her to be in danger of life.

Presenter29:23

Do you have any guilt? Do you think you could have done, should have done more?

Franco Zeffirelli29:25

And now, yes, and now. Because we took for granted Maria Carlos was eternal. Instead, she was.

Franco Zeffirelli29:33

At the end of a time.

Franco Zeffirelli29:35

No, far from my mind that she was about to die.

Presenter29:39

Record number seven, here she is.

Franco Zeffirelli29:42

Have you ever

Franco Zeffirelli29:44

Even if she's dead, Maria.

Franco Zeffirelli29:46

She remains like the most extraordinary.

Franco Zeffirelli29:49

Voice of God.

Franco Zeffirelli29:52

The voice of heaven

Franco Zeffirelli29:54

We'll never will never stop.

Franco Zeffirelli29:57

Being totally

Franco Zeffirelli29:59

moved and involved and

Franco Zeffirelli30:02

brought up out of our

Franco Zeffirelli30:05

cages on earth in our human dimension and fly high.

Franco Zeffirelli30:10

with her voice like she does.

Franco Zeffirelli30:12

In Castadiva Norma.

Speaker 430:20

Host of Him.

Speaker 430:27

Lost the dream.

Speaker 430:54

Christians oftis and king beyond.

Presenter31:13

Maria Calla singing Casta diva from Bellini's Norma with the chorus and orchestra of La Scala Milan, conducted by Tulio Serafin.

Presenter31:21

Um I mentioned, uh Franco Zepharelli, that you cheated death on several occasions at the hands of both the Gestapo and Gina Lulla Brigitte.

Speaker 431:29

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli31:30

Uh

Speaker 431:30

Uh

Presenter31:30

And you cheated it again recently, I think, when Septicemia attacked.

Franco Zeffirelli31:30

Ah

Speaker 431:30

Uh

Franco Zeffirelli31:30

Anyway

Franco Zeffirelli31:34

Wow, this is some uh

Presenter31:36

Are you kind of on borrowed time, do you feel, or?

Franco Zeffirelli31:38

I don't borrow time. It's time. Time it cannot be always pleasant and cheerful and lucky. I mean, you have to you have to expect trouble in life. Uh yeah, I escaped so many times uh daily dangers. I should have been died of

Franco Zeffirelli31:53

hundreds of years ago. The stupid, uh, stupid mistake of a surgeon in America that did not model my prosthetis at the hip properly. The wound was infected. Infection of

Franco Zeffirelli32:07

That kind brings you to death, normally.

Presenter32:10

But not you not Frank Farzel Forelli.

Franco Zeffirelli32:11

I was lucky because uh another doctor

Franco Zeffirelli32:16

I saved my life with uh this uh septicemia that I had, changing everything.

Franco Zeffirelli32:22

But unfortunately the remedy they had to use was a very strong antibiotic, very strong and

Franco Zeffirelli32:28

Extended three to meter weight.

Franco Zeffirelli32:31

In the end, burnt my labyrinths.

Presenter32:34

Uh

Franco Zeffirelli32:34

I'm uh no balance. I have problems balancing. While I'm healthy, I survived and I my mind is very active because I've done the best work

Presenter32:34

No yes.

Franco Zeffirelli32:42

In my career, in the last three years.

Presenter32:44

Have you?

Presenter32:45

And but you're gonna do more still. You're not gonna be able to do it.

Franco Zeffirelli32:47

And then I don't want to give up until uh somebody says that's enough.

Franco Zeffirelli32:52

And not me. I won't say that's enough.

Presenter32:55

Last record.

Franco Zeffirelli32:57

Well, but let's talk about something more cheerful. The happy years of London. The London I knew in the s late fifties and sixties, when the whole movement of young people burst.

Franco Zeffirelli33:09

and broke all the rules.

Franco Zeffirelli33:12

De Luzum Muse, De Russum.

Franco Zeffirelli33:14

behaviour, literature, theatre, everything.

Franco Zeffirelli33:18

And at the epitome of that uh moment were the Beatles.

Speaker 433:23

I said something wrong now I long for yesterday yesterday

Speaker 433:36

Love was such an easy game to play

Speaker 433:41

I need a place to hide away, oh I believe

Presenter33:45

I believe In yesterday

Presenter33:50

The Beatles and Yesterday. So if you could only take one of those eight records, that's the next hurdle you have to jump here, yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli33:57

Well you have to jump here, yeah.

Presenter34:02

Yeah.

Presenter34:04

What about your book? We give you the Bible, we give you the complete works of Shakespeare. What book you would would you like to take in addition?

Franco Zeffirelli34:10

Well, I wish you'd give me uh together with the

Franco Zeffirelli34:14

Bible and

Franco Zeffirelli34:16

Shakespeare, also Dante Righeri. Uh if I have to choose between Dante Ch and Shakespeare, I will have Dante.

Presenter34:21

But it

Franco Zeffirelli34:22

I mean, a must is

Franco Zeffirelli34:25

The infection.

Presenter34:25

Okay.

Franco Zeffirelli34:27

Uh did that inferno, but if I need to p choose a book.

Franco Zeffirelli34:31

Regular work.

Presenter34:32

Well, I have the dante, then it's a deal.

Franco Zeffirelli34:35

That's the deal. Otherwise I would rather like uh also like war and peace.

Presenter34:38

Yeah.

Franco Zeffirelli34:39

You can't tell too, I'm sorry.

Presenter34:40

I think it's the dante. I think it's earned its place there. And what about your luxury?

Franco Zeffirelli34:42

Nah.

Franco Zeffirelli34:45

I've seen in a window a very

Franco Zeffirelli34:49

Beautiful hammock by Hermes

Franco Zeffirelli34:52

I like to have it in positano. It's so elegant and stupidly

Franco Zeffirelli34:57

attractive, but it's there as a beautiful object and very comfortable to have on a desert island.

Presenter35:03

Franco Zeffarelli, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear who Desert Island is.

Franco Zeffirelli35:07

Thank you very much.

Speaker 335:20

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.