Countess Elizabeth Longford

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and two, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:32

My Castaway this week has been a politician, a journalist, and a biographer. She'll be ninety six this year, one of the most remarkable women of our times, radiating intelligence, charm, and wit from the centre of a unique family.

Presenter0:46

At Oxford in the twenties she was clever and beautiful. Quinton Hogg said there wasn't an undergrad who wouldn't have considered it a privilege to hold an umbrella over her head.

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She went on to fight two general elections as a Labour candidate, but having failed to win a seat, turned to journalism, and then to her famous biographies of Victoria, Wellington, Churchill, the Queen Mother, and indeed the Queen herself.

Presenter1:10

Married for nearly seventy years to an eminent Labour politician and campaigner, she produced eight children.

Presenter1:17

I always thought I was going to be lost in a crowd, she says, but then found myself pushing forwards, which always surprised me. She is Elizabeth Longford.

Presenter1:28

It uh it turned out to be a very special gift, Lady Longford, that that push of yours, that drive. Where do you think you got it from?

Countess Elizabeth Longford1:37

Yeah.

Presenter1:38

Probably

Countess Elizabeth Longford1:38

Black from my

Countess Elizabeth Longford1:40

Father, he was a specialist consultant.

Countess Elizabeth Longford1:46

and our home was in Harley Street.

Countess Elizabeth Longford1:49

And I don't think he realised how pushing he was.

Presenter1:54

Odd. But your mother was quite a strong character as well, wasn't she? Well

Countess Elizabeth Longford1:58

My mother was a

Countess Elizabeth Longford2:00

A trained doctor.

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But she gave it up when she married my father.

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She was at the beginning of her thirties.

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And she wanted to have

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A good family. In the end, she had five children. You were the eldest, child. I was the eldest.

Speaker 12:19

But she has a

Countess Elizabeth Longford2:20

She was very strong and brave character. She fought with swans at Regent's Park Lake. We were tiny children and we were taken up there for our walk. And so when one of us went up to the swans, my mother flew after them, caught the swan by the neck.

Countess Elizabeth Longford2:46

and marched it back into the water.

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And I can still remember the funny

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motions it made with its neck.

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trying to unstiffen it where she'd gripped it. They were hissing away like

Presenter3:03

Like mad.

Countess Elizabeth Longford3:04

Uh

Presenter3:04

Tell me about you as a little girl. You were obviously very, very bright. What were you interested in?

Presenter3:10

I was

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passionately interested in

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drawing and painting and writing little stories and

Presenter3:19

Him.

Presenter3:21

And you very much wanted to go up to Oxford, didn't you? And you eventually went in nineteen twenty six to Lady Margaret Hall. But it wasn't, as I understand it, entirely an academic ambition, was it? I think you liked the idea of getting away and getting into what you call the flapper world.

Presenter3:41

I've checked

Countess Elizabeth Longford3:41

My parents, which I now approve of, were very strict. My father, for instance, wouldn't allow me to have my hair bobbed.

Countess Elizabeth Longford3:54

He insisted on two long pigtails. I thought that was very s

Presenter4:01

So you got away and off you went to Oxford.

Countess Elizabeth Longford4:04

Yeah.

Presenter4:04

Tell me about your first record.

Countess Elizabeth Longford4:06

Uh

Presenter4:06

Well, that was

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this sort of bravado spirit of my father, because suddenly

Countess Elizabeth Longford4:15

He came home with an enormous load of luggage which turned out to be what were called pianola rolls.

Countess Elizabeth Longford4:26

Father used to put on this wonderful song, Nazareth, and then one of us children was invited by him.

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to play the pedals so that the song came out and then he would stand up.

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and in a very fine barytone he would sing

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The melody

Speaker 25:00

Uh

Speaker 25:00

We're going to

Speaker 25:05

Uh

Speaker 25:06

Peace, glory, water flee.

Speaker 25:16

Oh poor Bay La Chamber come here.

Speaker 25:27

Long Lord overhaul.

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Have to mortals give us.

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Life forevermore

Presenter5:50

Nazareth, sung by Norman Allen with the BBC Choir, conducted by Stanford Robinson, and that was recorded in 1932. And memories for you, Lady Longford, of your father singing at the pianola. So you went up to Oxford on an English scholarship, didn't you? But you changed to greats, to classical history and philosophy. Why did you do that?

Countess Elizabeth Longford6:08

Physical history and physical.

Presenter6:10

Because

Countess Elizabeth Longford6:11

Yeah.

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My friend.

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Hugh Gaitskin.

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introduced me to Maurice Barra.

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who was the dean of Waldham College. I admired Hugh, and Hugh admired Morris. He thought I could drop all these silly L

Presenter6:32

Ha

Countess Elizabeth Longford6:33

Yeah.

Presenter6:33

Uh

Presenter6:34

What, or silly old customs in the sense that English was a girl sometimes. Yes, yes. Because in.

Countess Elizabeth Longford6:38

Yeah.

Countess Elizabeth Longford6:39

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford6:40

In those days the wonderful Cambridge School had not yet developed, but Maurice Barrow, one of the lecturers in classics, was very brilliant and witty and amusing. You said he was mesmerizing. Why why was that? He could talk nonsense and at the same time make you

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:05

feel. It was perfectly

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good sense and the kind of good sense you wanted to hair.

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:13

Weren't you often the only girl at his parties? I was always the only girl, because I was sponsored by Hugh Gateskin and one or two others.

Presenter7:23

And who were the other men around those tables then? There were plenty. What, John Betcherman, Dick Crossman, was he there? Yes, they all knew them. Spender or

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:29

Yeah, yeah.

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:31

Orden.

Presenter7:32

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:32

Yes, I met them all.

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Interha

Presenter7:35

But Maurice Barrer, as you say, was uh a classical scholar and older than all of you. I think he would have been about eight years older.

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:44

True.

Presenter7:47

And he of course was was commonly believed, at that time, to be a homosexual, wasn't he? And then one day he proposed to you.

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:55

Yeah.

Presenter7:55

Yeah. How did it happen? Tell me about it.

Presenter7:58

Petrus. Approaching

Countess Elizabeth Longford7:59

rushed affair, because he had another lady ready on his list if I declined, which I did because I'd already met Frank.

Countess Elizabeth Longford8:14

Peckenham. Tell me about your second record.

Countess Elizabeth Longford8:16

My parents wanted me to have what they thought of as a a new education. It was called Headington, a school for girls.

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And we borrowed the Harrow School song.

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So, at the beginning and end of every term, we.

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Chubby teenage girls.

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Would jump up.

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And pour out.

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Till the fields ring again and again.

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to the tramp of the twenty two men.

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And then we all began laughing, because we were clearly not twenty two men.

Presenter9:28

One of Harrow's School's songs forty years on. Now, Lady Longford, I think another proposal came your way at Oxford. This is before eventually your husband to be proposed, and this one was in fact from Hugh Gateskill. How did he come to propose?

Countess Elizabeth Longford9:43

Uh

Presenter9:43

He never actually

Countess Elizabeth Longford9:44

proposed. Hugh was a a marvellous

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Educationists.

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And

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He made it clear to me.

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that he was interested in improving me.

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And Hugh and Frank.

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shared rooms and I think you influenced Frank a good

Presenter10:08

And f

Presenter10:10

Right?

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:10

Dale

Presenter10:10

Uh Of course you both, you and your husband Frank, knew Gateskill all his life. He died tragically early, didn't he, aged fifty seven?

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:19

Terrible.

Presenter10:20

How different do you think Lord Longford's political career would have been had Gateskill lived? Do you think he would have made Lord Longford Home Secretary?

Presenter10:29

I don't

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:30

No, but

Presenter10:30

No, but

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:30

At Bicos?

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:32

Frankl was used to say that Evelyn Moore, who was a a really close friend of both of us, used to say

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:43

If they make

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:45

Frank, Home Secretary.

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He'll let us all be murdered in our beds.

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:53

Because it released the prisoners. I think.

Countess Elizabeth Longford10:56

He meant it, because Frank had already begun his prison reform.

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Which

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Arch tourists like Dear Evelyn used to.

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dislike intensely.

Presenter11:11

But of course, once Gateskill died, there was really no chance, I think, of your husband achieving high office because Harold Wilson took over and you

Speaker 211:20

Green.

Presenter11:21

Intensely disliked each other, didn't you?

Presenter11:24

He must pretty

Countess Elizabeth Longford11:24

And click Clever.

Countess Elizabeth Longford11:26

But rather difficult to get on to. He lived quite near us in Hampstead, garden suburb, but Harold didn't want to have a sort of special relationship. I made several attempts to understand the way it was all going from Mary, not from Harold. I found her much easier.

Countess Elizabeth Longford11:57

Tell me about your next piece of music. A Catholic family advised us to send our sons to Ampleforth.

Countess Elizabeth Longford12:08

And one of my favourite pieces of music is the plain song sung by the monks of Ambresport.

Speaker 212:27

Yeah.

Speaker 212:31

God is me.

Speaker 112:32

No one's here.

Speaker 212:39

God

Presenter13:15

Easter plain song sung by the monastic choir of the Abbey Church, Ampleforth. But of course the the real love of your Oxford years, Lady Longford, um, w was the man whom you first met when he was fast asleep. Tell me about meeting him.

Countess Elizabeth Longford13:30

I Uh

Presenter13:31

had gone with

Countess Elizabeth Longford13:32

Hugh Gateskill to one of the Oxford College commemballs. In the middle of a grass path I saw a figure fast asleep in a chair in the middle of the grass path. And I thought to myself, I wonder who his partner is. She must be very well equipped with partners to let one like that

Presenter14:07

Sit alone and asleep. So, what did you do when you saw this beautiful figure lying prone and asleep?

Presenter14:14

He got up.

Countess Elizabeth Longford14:15

And red gin.

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And

Countess Elizabeth Longford14:18

followed me upstairs to the set of rooms which Hugh had borrowed for the night.

Countess Elizabeth Longford14:27

He he saw there was a nice long bed.

Countess Elizabeth Longford14:31

So he climbed into the bed without undressing, and I saw this sleeping figure. So I gave him a smacking kiss on the forehead and said, This is the sleeping beauty, the other way round. Frank sprang up and said, I would kiss you if I could, but I can't.

Countess Elizabeth Longford14:56

I didn't know what he meant by that. But what did he mean by that? He was the partner of John Buckham's daughter, who was very nice.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:10

Frank Shay.

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He would kiss me if he could. I thought that was a good start.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:17

So I would make it more easy for him.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:21

Uh

Presenter15:21

So that was all 75 years ago. And you did get married eventually, but some years later, I think. It was a very.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:24

Okay.

Presenter15:30

Modern marriage, wasn't it, Lady Longford, in the sense that um it was a marriage of of great equality.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:37

Yeah.

Presenter15:37

Frank was very

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:38

strong, feminist.

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partly through being the last boy in a large family of sisters and brothers.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:52

Would you like to tell me about you?

Presenter15:53

Next record.

Countess Elizabeth Longford15:54

Yeah.

Presenter15:54

After

Presenter15:55

Frank

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Austria.

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New cardinal invited me to let him have Frank's funeral at Westminster Cathedral, and I think I suggested

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That our grandson, Caspar.

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Should play.

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the music at the end of the funeral.

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So he played this wonderful piece.

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Of

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Haiden.

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The music was extremely

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Moving.

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There was a great deal of joy and exultancy in it.

Presenter17:40

Part of the second movement of Haydn's Trumpet Concerto in E-flat played by John Wallace with the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Christopher Warren Green.

Speaker 117:47

Warren

Presenter17:48

Um there were two, of course, major differences between you and your husband, Lady Longford, although you were misses Packenham in the beginning, weren't you?

Presenter17:57

He was a Tory, and you were strongly Labour, and he was a Catholic, and you were an agnostic. Now you won the first, the political battle. You drew him to the left, didn't you? How did you manage to do that?

Presenter18:11

Every Sh

Countess Elizabeth Longford18:12

Shama.

Countess Elizabeth Longford18:14

The Master of Balliou College, Oxford, Sandy Lindsay, used to invite students from a voluntary educational association called the Workers Educational Association to stay at the Oxford University Summer School.

Countess Elizabeth Longford18:44

and Frank became a tutor in economics.

Countess Elizabeth Longford18:51

To the

Presenter18:52

The WEA And why did all of this change your husband's political sympathies? What was it that drew him to the left?

Countess Elizabeth Longford19:00

Well, I became a tutor then too, so we were both linked to

Countess Elizabeth Longford19:08

a real neighbor experience in the world.

Presenter19:13

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford19:13

Topic.

Presenter19:14

You'd had, I think, six or seven of your children before you moved towards your husband, Frank, in terms of religion, and indeed converted to Catholicism. How had you managed before that? What what happened on a Sunday morning with the family? Frank and I.

Countess Elizabeth Longford19:31

Yeah.

Presenter19:32

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford19:32

is to set off.

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to church on Sunday morning.

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We'd get to the main Banbury Road in Oxford. Then one lot would go with Frank to the Catholic Church, and the other lot with me.

Countess Elizabeth Longford19:54

Yeah.

Presenter19:56

And how difficult was it for you to commit to Rome in the end, Lady Longford?

Countess Elizabeth Longford20:01

not difficult at all because

Countess Elizabeth Longford20:04

I was very friendly with a wonderful Dominican monk called Jervis Matthew and his brother David Matthew. And when there were executions

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In South Africa they would always try and comfort.

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Those who were left.

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And tell them.

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not to stop being proud.

Presenter20:34

Of their own nation. Now you've chosen an Aria from Verde's Macbeth next. Why why do you want to take that to your desert island?

Presenter20:43

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford20:43

There was a very simple reason for that.

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Because

Countess Elizabeth Longford20:47

It reminded me of Frank and me going together to the opera at Leinbourn, and that in turn reminded me

Countess Elizabeth Longford21:01

Of Antonia playing the part of Lady Macbeth in the

Countess Elizabeth Longford21:08

Dragon School, play

Speaker 221:19

Yeah.

Presenter22:09

Maria Callas singing the aria La Luce Langue from Verdi's Macbeth with the orchestra of La Scala Milan conducted by Victor de Sabata.

Presenter22:18

Uh you produced and and and nurtured such a talented family, Lady Longford, the historian Antonia Fraser, the novelist Rachel Billington.

Presenter22:28

others in politics and arts and the law. What do you what do you put it all down to, that that plethora of talent? Do you think it's all in in the genes, or is it in the nurture, too? All our

Countess Elizabeth Longford22:39

Children were.

Presenter22:41

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford22:41

of enormous interest to both their parents.

Countess Elizabeth Longford22:45

Uh

Presenter22:45

Of course you might only have had six children, not eight, if your political masters had had their way.

Countess Elizabeth Longford22:53

My sixth baby was born.

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I was already Labour candidate.

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for Kings Norton, Birmingham.

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And I would certainly have got in, so I went up to visit them.

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And one of the committee sent a motion that I should be asked to give a promise.

Countess Elizabeth Longford23:23

that this would be my last child. I was really

Countess Elizabeth Longford23:29

upset and horrified at being asked by a political party to give a promise not to have more children. I said I couldn't give any such promise, so I offered them my resignation because I immediately began

Countess Elizabeth Longford23:58

thinking they were quite right, I might want to have more children. So I resigned.

Countess Elizabeth Longford24:06

From the seat and had

Countess Elizabeth Longford24:10

Another baby, a girl, and then after her, the last

Presenter24:16

A boy.

Presenter24:18

Now you've said you want to take Jerusalem to this desert island. Why do you want to take that? Well, because.

Countess Elizabeth Longford24:24

Yeah.

Presenter24:24

It's an express

Countess Elizabeth Longford24:25

Yeah.

Countess Elizabeth Longford24:27

in the most marvellous.

Countess Elizabeth Longford24:29

poetic way of William Blake, what the Labour Party of our day felt like, and I think still does.

Presenter25:38

That was the BBC Welsh Chorus and Symphony Orchestra and Jerusalem.

Presenter25:42

It's um always fascinating to recall, really, that you were in your fifties before you published your first book, weren't you, Lady Longford?

Presenter25:50

And eventually, I think the second book, the first one wasn't so so successful, The Jameson Raid, but the second one was Queen Victoria. Then you went on to the Duke of Wellington, The Iron Duke, two highly acclaimed biographies. People praise your narrative style and your sense of the person in your work. How do you do that? How do you get inside the skin of your subject?

Presenter26:14

I

Countess Elizabeth Longford26:14

I feel I must be in close touch with the individual.

Countess Elizabeth Longford26:21

preferably through letters or if not through journals.

Countess Elizabeth Longford26:27

I think it all began with Queen Victoria because I'd been very much growing up in the days of Lytton Strachey.

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and of all the literary people.

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I think Strache was the only one who saw the possibilities in Queen Victoria.

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All the rest of us were very much heavy handed.

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Twentieth Century readers and writers. We didn't believe it.

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True.

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Queen Victoria to make her own point, but she made it notwithstanding.

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:10

By keeping a very fascinating journal.

Presenter27:15

And you had, of course, a distinct advantage over Strachey, didn't you? Because you had access to those royal archives. He he hadn't had that. So yours was

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:22

And hand that.

Presenter27:24

to that extent, um a a a more informative book.

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:26

Yeah.

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:28

The Royal Archives had the

Presenter27:31

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:31

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter27:32

But you've also talked about finding the great moments your phrase in a subject's life and you've said that that perhaps one of those moments in Victoria's life was when she heard a mystic voice saying, Still endure.

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:47

Important.

Presenter27:48

Trap. Yeah.

Countess Elizabeth Longford27:48

Uh

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Our generation.

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To read and recognize it because.

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It had always been the way to brush off Victoria and Victorianism as being terribly boring, unromantic, and how could she have exerted such a charm over people like Albert?

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and and Israeli. And the answer was because she wasn't stuffy.

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She was

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Imaginative. One could see that immediately.

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from the kind of places.

Countess Elizabeth Longford28:35

Yeah.

Presenter28:35

She lagged.

Presenter28:37

And she did not, you are convinced, have an affair with John Brown? It was

Countess Elizabeth Longford28:41

Okay.

Presenter28:42

Totally.

Countess Elizabeth Longford28:42

Against her.

Countess Elizabeth Longford28:44

Nature and Beliefs.

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I like now to think

Countess Elizabeth Longford28:50

But Queen Victoria.

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at her golden jubilee, like our prison queen is.

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Having so wonderfully now.

Countess Elizabeth Longford29:02

that Queen Victoria had a piece of music sent to her from Scotland by one of the great musicians of the day. That's why I'd like to include Cecil Spring Rices. I vow to thee, my country.

Presenter30:20

I vow to thee my country performed by the Westminster Abbey Choir with Martin Baker playing the organ, conducted by Martin Neary.

Presenter30:28

What about our own queen, about whom you've also written, Lady Longford? You say that her one of her great moments was when she said, I must be seen to be believed.

Presenter30:42

Why do you think that such a great moment? Before her.

Countess Elizabeth Longford30:46

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford30:47

Royalty could always think of some excuse for not being seen and in fact not doing its duty. But that is long past, and they are very dutiful now.

Presenter31:06

You you've written over the past decade applauding the Queen's decision to some years ago now reduce the civil list and to pay taxes. How strong is your belief that the British monarchy will endure? Or will it have to alter more still to keep pace?

Countess Elizabeth Longford31:25

Yeah.

Presenter31:26

I

Countess Elizabeth Longford31:26

Uh Tremendously admire.

Countess Elizabeth Longford31:29

Prince Charles, I think he's always

Countess Elizabeth Longford31:33

open minded and prepared to think o of new ideas. And I think the Queen is tremendously serious minded about it all. She just doesn't let

Presenter31:52

It slide.

Countess Elizabeth Longford31:53

Uh

Countess Elizabeth Longford31:53

Uh

Presenter31:53

And what about your own life, Lady Longford? Your slogan I noticed when you were standing for Parliament all those years ago, seventy years ago, was a full life and a family life. Has it been full in the way that you originally hoped?

Presenter32:14

I suppose

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:14

Who's I would have stuck with.

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:18

Um Kings Norton.

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:20

But they just didn't understand how women feel about

Presenter32:26

Children.

Presenter32:27

So you regret in that sense not having won a seat in the House of Commons? And in the end, I suppose what you did was abandon some of that push, that ambition we were talking about.

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:27

So you regret

Presenter32:39

In the beginning, for the sake of your family. But I presume you have no regrets.

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:44

No, I wouldn't say.

Presenter32:44

There are

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:47

I abandoned something.

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:50

That I wanted to do for their sake, I think they

Countess Elizabeth Longford32:55

Made my life absolutely.

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enjoyable and I felt it was valuable because of them.

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And the idea of not

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having another of those little

Countess Elizabeth Longford33:09

Creatures.

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when I was still able to I just rejected it.

Presenter33:15

But

Countess Elizabeth Longford33:15

Uh

Presenter33:15

And now for your your last record, you've chosen the first verse of the hymn Alleluia, Sing to Jesus. Why do you want that?

Presenter33:24

Jesus mustn't

Countess Elizabeth Longford33:24

Unjust.

Countess Elizabeth Longford33:26

out of one nation, but out of every nation.

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I thought the most wonderful thing about the Queen Mother's funeral, which I was fortunate enough to go to, was that there were leaders of all nations and

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Different kinds of religions.

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And that's what religion.

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Ought to be.

Speaker 234:04

Give for Jesus.

Speaker 234:09

This was

Speaker 234:22

Praise Lord.

Speaker 234:25

His love.

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Please the signal.

Speaker 234:47

I've lost

Presenter35:00

That was the first verse of the hymn Alleluia, Sing to Jesus by W C Dix recorded in Norwich Cathedral.

Presenter35:07

Now, Lady Longford, if you could only take one of those eight records you've told me about, which one would it be?

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:15

I'll have

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:17

I vow to be my country.

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:19

entirely for the sake of the present queen.

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:24

Yeah.

Presenter35:24

And if we gave you on your desert island the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, what other one book would you like to take with you?

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:28

Bible

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:33

Uh

Presenter35:34

It's the name

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:34

New book by Lawrence Kelly about

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:40

Russian legends and beliefs. And I don't think

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:47

We should.

Countess Elizabeth Longford35:49

expect to be able to convert the Great Russian power to the West just by dropping bombs on the outlying areas.

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:01

I think we've got to understand what

Presenter36:05

Make some tea.

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:06

Uh

Presenter36:06

That's Lawrence Kelly's Diplomacy and Murder in Tehran. And what about your luxury?

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:12

Yeah.

Presenter36:12

Oh, my luxury

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:13

Please ready.

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:15

simple one, a great friend of mine.

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:19

read me out about a a miniature orange tree.

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:25

that you can buy in a pot. I'd like to have one with buds on it.

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:32

So that after it's flowered

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:34

We'll have some tiny oranges and we can all

Countess Elizabeth Longford36:40

Heaven

Presenter36:41

Delicate feast.

Presenter36:43

Elizabeth Lady Longford, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 136:54

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Speaker 237:40

Uh