Sue MacGregor

Sue MacGregor0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and two, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My Castaway this week is a radio broadcaster. For 18 years, her firm and courteous voice has been the first thing many of us hear as we struggle to begin the day. Before she worked on Radio 4's Today programme, she presented Woman's Are for 15 years. And before that, well, she worked in radio. In fact, she's been presenting live daily radio for 40 years in all. The medium is in her blood. Now, aged 60, she's leaving Today behind. Not without a whiff of controversy, it has to be said. Her autobiography revealed she'd had an affair with the actor Leonard Rossiter. But for the rest, she goes as she came, calm, confident, and meticulous. Radio has always been my first love, she says. Headphones clamped on, talking to people. It's hugely fulfilling and a pleasure. She is, of course, Sue McGregor. Sue, you simply have to be as calm and reasonable and sensible as you sound, or have you been conning us all these years? Well, I suppose the revelations that you allude to there, Sue, may have changed people's perception of me, but they have. But I'm a reasonably calm and cool person on the surface. I do feel things passionately underneath, but you've said I've been in live radio, goodness me, for 40 years. I can hardly believe it. I did start quite young. And I come from an era of radio where

Presenter1:46

It was dinned into you that you weren't the important person in an interview, it was the person you were talking to. And part of the skill of talking to people was subsuming your own personality. Now, things have moved quite a bit since then. And working on the Today programme, part of Today, I suppose, is entertaining people as well as enlightening them or infuriating them. Is there a suggestion there that you disapprove of the personality interview? No, I don't. I think that's great entertainment. It's not necessarily my style of doing things. But the great thing about working on Today is that you work with a partner.

Sue MacGregor2:06

Soon fuel.

Sue MacGregor2:07

My

Sue MacGregor2:11

Inter

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And if listeners don't particularly like my style, they can wait for John Humphreys or Jim Nottie or whatever. Indeed. And you've said that obviously life isn't dull sitting next to them, but you've also said it's not a job for the faint-hearted. And I quote, it again, it sounds like a kind of Sue McGregor understatement, that. What goes wrong?

Sue MacGregor2:24

Yeah.

Speaker 42:24

Yeah.

Sue MacGregor2:24

And

Presenter2:36

Well, lots goes wrong technically. There's a great deal of waving of arms about, saying, you know, what's next? I don't know what's next. There's also, you know, the egos are around in the studios, mine and other people's, and we all like to get the best interview and do the top interview. But Brian Redhead, you've written about, now there was an ego, wasn't there? He reduced you to tears on occasions. Well, not tears that he ever knew about, I suspect. But Brian was two people, really. He was a brilliant broadcaster. He was a radio man to his fingertips and much admired by me. But he liked having companions in the studio, people like me, as long as they knew their place. But if they showed any signs of wishing to do interviews of equal length or equal importance to Brian, he could be a rather different person. But what were these devastating put-downs that would make you cry?

Sue MacGregor2:47

Mine

Sue MacGregor3:15

Uh

Speaker 43:15

Uh

Presenter3:26

I don't know that I really I I w I cried privately once or twice, very unlike me. But what did he do? Well, he once I was talking to somebody, and I for the life of me I can't remember who it was, but he obviously thought that I'd got the wrong end of the stick.

Speaker 43:32

What would you do?

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And just as the interview ended and it was live, I heard this sort of scratching on a piece of paper next to me, and he thrust the piece of paper under my nose, with written in capital letters on it, the word fool, and he wasn't talking about the person I'd been talking

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There were things like that. But actually Brown was kindness itself. If you were ill or in any way in in real trouble.

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He would send you flowers, he would ring you up, he would put his arms round you and give you a hug. But undeniably a lot of misogyny in the radio over the years, and you have suffered from it. I want to talk to you more about it later, but just tell me in a nutshell, what makes you get up at three o'clock in the morning for 18 years at a time you've made this point when most people die if they're going to die, shove a banana in your mouth, and what's the book? I think it's the best program on radio. Where do you go after today on a daily basis?

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Radio program

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There's nothing that's quite the challenge of it. When the red light says go, you've got an adrenaline rush such as one seldom gets in life.

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Tell me about your first record. First record, Ella Fitzgerald, she is the supreme jazz artist, and this is a song from her very popular Rogers and Hart song book, You Took Advantage of Me.

Speaker 44:57

I'm a silver metal sap, that's all What's the use of trying not to fall? I have no will, you made your kill, Cause you took advantage of me.

Speaker 45:15

I'm just like an apple on a vow And you're gonna shake me down somehow So what's the y?

Presenter5:22

Mm-hmm.

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Ella Fitzgerald, and you took advantage of me. You began your broadcasting career, Sue, with SABC, South African Broadcasting Corporation, 40 years ago. You were only twenty, and they gave you their version of Woman's Our called Woman's World to present live. I mean, you must have been terrified. It was extraordinary. I never really saw myself as somebody who was a practitioner broadcasting in front of the microphone. I thought I'd be somebody's assistant. The woman who ran Woman's World upton got married, and in those days, when you got married, as a woman, you were expected to leave your job. And the departmental boss said to me,

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Okay, I think you can do it. Let's put you in a studio and see if you can. Well

Presenter6:07

I'm not sure that I could at all. I sat in a studio rather like this, gripping the table, and I must have sounded quite appallingly nervous and young. W was there a dress code? Because it was very influenced by the B B C, wasn't it? It was a lot of money. Yes, there was a sort of dress code. One of the senior women on the station where I worked in Cape Town

Sue MacGregor6:18

It was a naughty re

Presenter6:26

Used to go down to the mail ship every Thursday when it arrived with a tape recorder and had to wear a hat and gloves in order to meet the important passengers as they walked down the gangplank. And we were not allowed to wear trousers. But the BBC was the same. One of my colleagues, I remember much later in the 70s, got balled out by the head of Radio 4 for walking through the front reception of broadcasting house, carrying plastic bags from British home stores. And she was told in no uncertain terms that you cannot carry plastic bags and you're shopping through the front entrance of the BBC. Quite right, too. What you would have had to have abided by at SABC was, of course, the politics, and essentially it was a mouthpiece for the government. Oh, yes, there was no doubt that the news programmes were all heavily steered towards the government point of view. And news was censored.

Sue MacGregor7:07

Oh yes, it was

Presenter7:15

These were the years when Nelson Mandela was imprisoned. Helen Sussman, the Liberal MP I know you admired, would not have had a voice on your woman's world. At that point she was not actually heard on the SABC. Rather later there were a few rather brief soundbites from opposition MPs. But don't you look back and think, how could I do that? How could I have just gone along with all of that?

Sue MacGregor7:22

But as well, would she?

Presenter7:38

Well, you know, I suppose it it's not quite as simple as that. Um yes.

Presenter7:45

I do have to justify those five years that I worked for the SABC to myself.

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But the English service of the South African Broadcasting Corporation in Cape Town was a we used to think of it was a little island of almost liberalism. I mean, we didn't.

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All right, we

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We were working within the apartheid agenda, but we weren't doing overtly political programmes.

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But didn't you feel it was wrong to work to to collude, as it were, with a broadcaster who was not allowing freedom of speech? Simply that, I suppose.

Speaker 48:10

Uh

Presenter8:19

As plainly as that, I suppose it was wrong, and the answer must be that I didn't at the time feel it was wrong. I felt

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It was possible.

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To work in a radio organisation and believe that the politics didn't actually quite touch you, I think that's as honest an answer as I can give.

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Record number two.

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My second record is The Click Song, which is in the Khosa language, as you'll hear. Now my Cosa click is not very good, but there are three clicks in the Khosa language. One is the one where the tongue hits the roof of the mouth,

Presenter8:53

One is the which is rather like encouraging a horse along, and the other is the

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Sound. And whenever I go back to South Africa, the moment I hear the wonderfully hard percussive clicks.

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I know that I'm home in a way. So Miriam McKebre and her click song were really part of my youthful time in Cape Town.

Speaker 39:16

It be garland legon tourne.

Speaker 39:23

Iku kalen le ku chuangu ko ngo chuane.

Speaker 39:30

Ikwe Kaalan Ne la Hayam.

Speaker 39:38

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Presenter9:42

Tick song sung by Miriam McCaber. Your father was a doctor, Sue, wasn't he, a neurologist, who decided after the war to take his family to South Africa. And then later on, along came your sister, nine years younger than you. Apparently you don't know whether there was anything to do with this sister or or what but were very very naughty at school. I was a naughty girl at school. You you sound rather surprised at this, but my school days were full of

Speaker 410:03

Yeah.

Sue MacGregor10:03

See?

Presenter10:06

Rebelliousness. What form did it take? Well, it was mostly giggling and cheating at the back of the class and encouraging others to misbehave. And when I was a boarder,

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being the leading light in nightly escapades. And at one point the headmistress wrote to my mother and said, It has come to my attention that Susan led a party of girls round the

Presenter10:28

Upper story of the inner side of the courtyard after lights out. And if this happens again, I shall have to ask her to leave the boarding school. It does all sound, though, quite Enid Blyton, whom you were to interview, of course, later on. This sort of sardines and condensed milk in the dorm. You wind up gramophones playing the music, I remember. Well, yes, and aunts called Aunt Topsy and Aunt Sheila. I mean, it's all you know, did they send you poster laws? Does it sound like Mallory Tower? This is a prefect and all that. Yes, it does. But at 16, you came to this country and you went to something that purported to be a finishing school. What did they finish you in?

Sue MacGregor10:40

Later on you'll get

Sue MacGregor10:44

You wind up

Sue MacGregor10:46

Oh well yes.

Sue MacGregor10:51

Does it sound like

Sue MacGregor10:54

How many discretion?

Sue MacGregor10:56

De Prefect

Sue MacGregor10:57

Yes, I do.

Sue MacGregor11:04

Yeah.

Sue MacGregor11:05

Well

Presenter11:06

The woman who ran it, who was a remarkable woman called Dorothy Neville Rove, called it a beginning school. What it really was, was you could take a course there, either secretarial or arts I took the arts course, over a year.

Presenter11:19

And it was a sort of stop gap before university, or a polishing off for girls who weren't going to university. But Miss Neville Rofe said that she was preparing you for life, not for marriage. Is that right? Well, I think she thought life and getting a decent job was rather more important, certainly initially, than finding a husband. She had never found one because she called herself an unclaimed treasure. She was one of the women who never found a a man, sadly, after World War One. And she was, in a way, inspirational to me. But I presume it's not her ongoing influence that has kept you single, or this is. No, I don't think so. I mean, my mother always said I was too fussy.

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The truth is I never found anybody that I, I suppose, clicked sufficiently with to want to spend the rest of my life.

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with and that I know is a fault in me and not in anybody that I you know might have thought of marrying me.

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Record number three. Record number three is a new version of the wonderful Bernstein score for Westside Story.

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Westside's story was

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Really quite in a funny way iconic for me as a musical. And I went to see it, I think, two or three times, and I particularly like this version of I Feel Pretty.

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Joshua Bell playing I Feel Pretty from Bernstein's Westside Story, arranged for violin and orchestra by William David Braun, with the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by David Zinman. It was back here, Sue, in 1967 that you joined The World at One, and Bill Hardcastle was presenting it then, the ex-Fleet Street journalist. A man who would write apparently WGAS on the bottom of many a story. Now, are you going to explain that one? Am I allowed to use a rude word? Well, of course.

Sue MacGregor13:27

Do I have to do that?

Presenter13:29

Bill adored everything about United States politics, and I think he had spent some time in Washington as a correspondent for the Daily Mail. So he always took a particular interest in wire stories that came in from the US during the day. But he did remind us that if a story didn't have legs, we shouldn't try and pursue it. And he said he remembered when he was in Washington that he used to get wire stories from somebody in the middle of the Midwest, and one of his assistants would hand it to him with WGAS initialed at the end of it. And Bill said, What does this stand for? And the friend said, Mr. Hardcastle, this stands for who gives a shit. And we had to

Presenter14:05

Put up with Bill saying WGAS when we came to him with some of our story ideas. It was also a programme on which you deliberately set out to mislead the listeners, Ms. McGregor. I was sent, it was the dog days of summer, it was very hot. We were scratching around for stories, and I was sent down to Piccadilly Circus to see if you really could fry an egg on the pavement. Phew, what a scorcher. Phew, all that. So I went into a local shop, bought some eggs, crouched at the base of Eros, broke the eggs onto the pavement. Absolutely nothing happened, it was just a horrible gloopy mess. So I tried several times more. Gloopy mess got larger. So I went into Boots, bought some methylated spirits, put it on the pavement, lit it, I'm sorry to say, with a match, got a very satisfactory frying noise, fried the eggs. They were immediately scooped up by a couple of the passers-by and eaten.

Presenter14:55

Went back to the studio with my story. It was put out on the world at one, and afterwards I said to Bill, I had to cheat a bit. I'm afraid I used methylated spirits. And he was furious. He said you have misled the listeners, you have misled me. Never do that again. Never cheat in a recording.

Sue MacGregor15:06

Bye, Miss

Presenter15:13

It was also a period during which and this was well post profumo, actually, that you had a fling with a handsome Soviet spy. Oh, goodness me Well, I don't know about a fling. I was very attracted to this man who I met

Presenter15:26

You see, The World at One was rather a racy programme, but also some of the contacts that they had were unusual. And one evening

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The Izvestia correspondent, who is called Vitaly Kobich, gathered us all up and said, Come back to my flat, I have wonderful party, lots of vodka.

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So we went back and had a wonderful party and lots of vodka and I was given a lift home in the back of a a sort of Moskva saloon by this handsome Russian who I very foolishly proceeded to to see. I mean we we dated for a few weeks and then he disappeared and I opened my newspaper that one morning and it said a hundred and eight

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Russians expelled from Britain by Sir Alec Douglas HUME.

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And I read down the list of names, and there was my Russian friend.

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He was nothing less than the top K G P man in

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And I thought, oh, my goodness Anyway, this fling hadn't really gone terribly far. I mean it told him nothing. And I told him nothing, and he hadn't even tried to find out anything about the B B C but a foolish liaison. Perhaps he just fancied you, you know. Well, maybe. I think he he was after something, but he didn't get it. Record number four.

Speaker 316:22

I mean it tells him nothing.

Sue MacGregor16:29

Yeah.

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Record number four is the ineffable Jessie Norman. I've admired her for many, many years and have more than once had the great pleasure of interviewing her. And I've chosen

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A Richard Strauss song called Zu Eignong.

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Then this is a wonderfully complete in itself song.

Speaker 416:56

It is an

Speaker 417:00

Thank you.

Speaker 417:19

I'm not sure if I can do it. This is both each big memory.

Presenter17:55

Jesse Norman singing to Eignor, one of Strauss's orchestral songs with the Gevanthaus orchestra conducted by Court Mazor. And then came Woman's Are, Sue. By the time you arrived on the front of it in nineteen seventy two, homosexuality and gynecological discussions had ceased to be taboo, but it seems to me that there was political correctness had set in, because you couldn't talk about things like working women and fridges and holidays abroad, could you?

Presenter18:20

Well, I'm not sure that's it that's entirely true, but it is partially true. Uh Women's Hour had always considered itself to be a rather mold-breaking programme and could discuss all those things. But in seventy two the women's movement was beginning to take hold here in quite a big way. It had started in America, of course, in the late sixties, and Germaine Greer had picked up the mantle.

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and run with it with her wonderful book, The Female Eunuch, which influenced a lot of us. But Woman's Hour, even in'72, was

Presenter18:49

They didn't want to alienate their core audience, which was, by definition, women at home. Some of them had never worked. Some of them were young women who were at home looking after small children and feeling a bit guilty about not bringing money into the house. It was a curious time for women. There was this great tug between

Sue MacGregor19:05

Money and

Presenter19:10

Working women and women who felt their life should be more rooted in domesticity. And I think Women's Hour felt that the women who were happy to be at home shouldn't be made to feel too uncomfortable. So the women's movement was barely alluded to. Exactly. And again, we have you on the front of a programme not really being entirely yourself, because you had been very impressed by Germaine. You'd gone to Trafalgar Square and cheered her on. Oh, I had. I remember there were great marches through London. It was rather an exciting time politically. You were set alight by it, I wasn't. I was, yes. Well, I suddenly felt, having read Germaine Greer and watched these demonstrations through the streets of London and gatherings in Trafalgar Square, women with long hair and cloaks that blew in the wind and all looking a bit like Bodicea, I suddenly felt.

Sue MacGregor19:33

Oh yeah.

Sue MacGregor19:34

Oh, I have

Presenter19:54

That I knew exactly what they were about and approved of it, and it was suddenly okay not to be married. I'd given licence in a case. In a sense, I was, yes. But I was aware that

Sue MacGregor20:01

Yeah.

Sue MacGregor20:02

In a sense.

Presenter20:05

This was a slightly disturbing philosophy for quite a lot of women, and Woman's Hour didn't do much about the women's movement.

Presenter20:14

Really, until the mid to late seventies, which was odd. But you mentioned fridges. There were some rules that we did a lot of cooking on the programme. There was even a baby belling stove. But there were little rules about not saying, when you have done this part of the recipe, put it in the fridge for 12 hours, because at the time, quite a lot of women couldn't actually afford fridges. And so it was considered not right to remind them of the fact. But at weekends, when the weekend woman's hour programme went out, it was thought that earning women would be listening, women who'd been at work during the week. So you were allowed to say, put it in the fridge, on weekend women's hour. You also handed out tips such as remember to take your library ticket on your holidays in case it rains. Terrific stuff. Record number five.

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I'm somebody who adores ballet, and Sleeping Beauty is of course one of the most delightful of all and most approachable of all ballets, Tchaikovsky's great score. And when somebody like, for instance, Darcy Bussell

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Dances Sleeping Beauty and Princess Aurora to this music, it's almost literally heart-stopping.

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Part of the Rose Adagio from Act One of Tchaikovsky's The Sleeping Beauty, played by the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Leonard Slatkin. Meanwhile, Sue, back at the BBC, you had still in the late 70s and into the 80s, men in charge of radio coming out with appalling, appalling sexist rubbish, such as, let me quote: a news announcer needs to have authority, consistency, and reliability. A woman may have one or two of these qualities, but not all three. I mean, did you take these people on? Well, that came from a man called Jim Black, who was head of presentation at the time, who persuaded his colleagues as recently as 1973 that women were unlikely to be able to read the news with any success. However, the pressure got stronger, and by 1974, Sheila Tracy was allowed to read the news on BBC radio, and the following year, Angela Ripon was allowed to read the news on BBC television. And I think we can truly say the rest is history. And people now cannot believe that those attitudes existed within the lifetime of their mothers. But the division of labour, certainly on the Today programme, doesn't exactly reflect much equality, does it? I mean, the figures for 18 months ago as to who did the big interview, the 10 past eight interview that I know you all kind of vie for, on the days on which they were on.

Sue MacGregor23:17

existed.

Presenter23:36

For example, is very much biased in favour of male presenters. You've got John Humphreys on the days he's on, 77% of the time he he does the ten past eight interview, Ed Sturton, Newcomer really, sixty-one percent. Jim Nochty, fifty-six percent, on the days he's on. You score thirty-eight percent. Why? Well, that I've I've noticed I've done quite a few more recently. I can't imagine what the reason is for that, but

Presenter23:59

There's no doubt that both Jim and John are brilliant political interviewers, and if the editor thinks that they are the ones to take on, for instance, the Prime Minister, or a minister who needs to be,

Presenter24:09

Harried and chased through an interview, then they quite often think that Jim and John are the ones to do it. Couldn't you do that? Well, I think I could. But, you know, so over the years I've actually given up being terribly cross about it because one can't go on working for a programme if you come in every morning thinking, why don't I have the ten past eight interview? And it would be true to say that these things go in waves. And lately, for instance, I've noticed I've done quite a lot of the ten past eight interviews. What do you put it down to? What do you think? Is it that listeners don't like women? I don't think it's anything to do with listeners.

Sue MacGregor24:40

Is there still this?

Sue MacGregor24:43

That is it.

Presenter24:45

I mean, I have asked editors in the past who have said, look, if we want a bit of theatre, and our programme is about entertaining people as well as informing them, it's often the case that John Humphries will do a cracking good interview that's great fun to listen to. If we want facts to be drawn out of somebody in a more dogged way, then perhaps you're the one, me, Sue, is the one to do it. Or it could be that the listener doesn't like women being aggressive. That's very true, and I've been accused of being a brisk headmistress, also of being shrewish. But until we can get over that sort of hump of women when they're tough, being perceived of as being unfeminine, then I'm not sure that there ever will be true equality. Record number six.

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Record number six is Mozart. A great friend of mine, Jane Glover, the conductor, when she was running the London Mozart players, often used this in programmes that I used to as a friend of hers used to go and listen to at the Festival Hall or wherever.

Presenter25:45

And it is simply one of the most wonderful pieces written for wind instruments.

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Part of the third movement of Mozart's Serenade for Thirteen Wind Instruments Gran Partita, played by the London Mozart Players Wind Ensemble, conducted by Jane Glover. So I can't not ask you, as you'll understand, about the fact that you've revealed in writing your autobiography that you had a five-year affair with Leonard Rossiter. You write about it very briefly, but um

Presenter27:09

Perhaps I would say this, wouldn't I? But I think I can feel the pain there. Well, it has received a lot of attention, and of course I've asked myself many times whether I should have put it in. I did agonise about this for a long time, not least because of the effect it would have on his family.

Presenter27:26

But

Presenter27:26

The decision was in a sense taken out of my hands by the fact that it was made plain to me that a newspaper had the story, and I was pretty sure that if I didn't put it in they would they would come out with it. So i I was caught between the devil and the deep blue sea over that. Would they not only have done that because they knew you were writing the book?

Presenter27:45

Yes, you mean should I have written the book at all? Yes, I suppose. Well, I'm asking if you have any regrets about it. I I of course i it was it was hugely

Sue MacGregor27:47

Yeah.

Sue MacGregor27:49

It doesn't

Presenter27:53

difficult to write and as I say, not least because of the effect i it would have on others and a lot of people thought I was

Presenter28:01

Foolish to have put it in, but I did feel if I was going to write and I wanted to write about my life in broadcasting. And I thought I can't just write about my professional life, because people will then say, Well, hasn't she got a private life and what was it like? I presume publishers would also say you've got to put that in for serialization. Well, we did. I mean, it wasn't quite as cynically put in as that. I mean, we did talk about whether I should put it in or not, and it was left up to me, it was my decision. And I thought, well,

Sue MacGregor28:17

Well, we talked about it.

Presenter28:26

It's a portrait of me warts and all, and I think I've got to try and be honest about it. But the result is that you've invaded your own privacy.

Sue MacGregor28:33

Yes, that's a good way.

Sue MacGregor28:35

And

Sue MacGregor28:37

And

Presenter28:38

I don't know, Sue. Um

Presenter28:40

I've done it and there we are. Because of course the other thing that's happened, therefore, is you've been interviewed a lot about it by newspapers and sort of more details have come. I suppose I'm surprised about that. I wonder, being someone who knows about how written journalists work, you know, that you would sort of be susceptible to the female interviewer sitting on your sitting-room carpet gazing up at you, waiting for you to hand out some juicy bits. Well, I don't did I hand out any more juicy bits? I don't know. I began to get the details of it. Yes, which I was yeah. I think when you talk to written journalists, you're in their hands to the extent that if you string

Sue MacGregor29:07

So I don't know if you began to get the Yes, which are

Presenter29:18

ten words that have come out very reluctantly together. It looks as if you've said that in one short sentence, and there we are. So no real regrets. I mean, it's just something now you've done and you're not sure. I regret that

Speaker 429:28

I hope that

Presenter29:31

I suppose I regret the yeah, the uh the affair and the unhappiness it caused both me and, more importantly, his family, but uh

Presenter29:40

There we are. It happened, and I've written about it as honestly as I as I could.

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Record number seven. Record number seven is another musician friend of mine playing Schubert impeccably, Imogen Cooper.

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Although it's a

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It's a merry piece you can hear the darkness coming through in a most intriguing way.

Presenter31:00

Part of the third movement of Schubert's piano sonata in B-flat major, played by Imogen Cooper. Is there part of you, Sue, that's elated at the thought of no more alarm bells ringing at 3am? Or are you going to have withdrawal symptoms from the Today Broker? I'm sure I will suffer from withdrawal symptoms, but the answer to the first bit of your question is there's a part of me that's hugely elated to the thought of the alarm not going off at quarter to three, ten to three, whatever it is. And are you really retiring or stopping broadcasting completely, or are you just stopping the table? I hope not at all. And I hope I'll go on doing other things in broadcasting. Yes, I'd very much like to. What would you really like to do, given the choice? I would really like to do a programme where you sat down.

Sue MacGregor31:28

I hope not.

Presenter31:41

and talked to somebody. I'm not after your job, Sue.

Presenter31:46

I think civilized conversation is something that the radio does rather well, and I would like to do something like that. And without all the stopwatches and the people yelling in your ear, get on, get on, and we're coming up to the pips.

Sue MacGregor31:51

I had

Sue MacGregor31:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sue MacGregor31:55

Yeah.

Presenter31:57

Poor producers. All presenters hate being harassed and hurried along, but on the Today programme you absolutely have to be, because it's a hanging offence to crash through those Greenwich Mean Pips.

Presenter32:08

In the meantime, it's um it's coconuts and old crab shells for you on this desert island. I think you'll be rather good at it. I think you are.

Sue MacGregor32:12

You on this

Presenter32:16

Self-sufficiency personified, don't you? I think I'd I'd cope okay.

Presenter32:22

The sun would be a bit of a problem because I'm pale skinned and and reddish haired. But I would feel lonely actually. I would miss my good friends very much.

Presenter32:32

Last record. As I've got older I've found Bach more and more essential, and I suppose the greatest choral work ever written.

Presenter32:39

Is the St. Matthew Passion, and from the St. Matthew Passion.

Presenter32:44

I've chosen the base area Machedig Meinherze Rhein.

Presenter32:48

And it's such a gorgeous tune, I think this is one I couldn't do without.

Speaker 433:18

Prophet Jesus might have said

Presenter33:52

Walter Berry and Mache Diechmein Herze Rhein from the scene depicting Christ's descent from the cross in Bach's and Matthew Paschen with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Karian. If you could only take one of those eight records, Sue, which one will you take? I think it might be the Mozart, actually, the Serenade for Thirteen Wind Instruments. And I could pretend I was playing each one of them. What about your book? You've got the Bible and you've got Shakespeare.

Presenter34:18

I'm deeply in many respects.

Presenter34:20

Uneducated because I never went to a proper university. And my knowledge, particularly of European history, is quite limited. So I would take J.M. Roberts' magnificent history of the world, and if I ever left the desert island, I could sort of mark all the bits I wanted to find out more about. So that would be the start of some sort of private degree for me, maybe. And your luxury? My luxury, I've mentioned my pale skin and reddish hair, and it would have to be some sunblock. Because when I was young in South Africa, such things didn't exist. You put on sort of oil that made you fry in the sun, which was terrible. So I take some nicely scented, very effective sunblock. Sue McGregor, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you, Sue.

Sue MacGregor35:09

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Speaker 435:59

Uh