Bruce Fogle

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and one, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

Mike Osway this week is a vet. From his practice in West London, through his best-selling books and on radio and television, he dispenses advice on pets and owner behaviour. His success came from his observation that petkeeping is a human aberration, no other species does it, and people therefore need guidance in what is inevitably a rather one-sided relationship.

Presenter0:53

Born and brought up in Canada in a house not surprisingly full of pets of all kinds, he came to this country thirty years ago. There's no democracy in pet ownership, he says. Assert your dominance, otherwise you don't have a decent relationship. He is Bruce Fogel. What what happens then, Bruce, if we don't assert our dominance? I mean, how how horrible can dogs and cats be to us?

Bruce Fogle1:18

They hang around our houses waiting for opportunities. They're great observers of our behavior. In fact, they're better than we are of their behaviour. And they will slip into the voids that we leave. If you allow the dog up on the bed, initially because it's a puppy, well, it's on the bed. Then it grows into an adult, and dominance can kick in. I can think of one cocker spaniel who said, This is now my bed. And the childless couple in their early thirties said, Okay, it's your bed, we'll sleep in the spare room.

Presenter1:50

But are we not talking about extremely weak-minded people in that case at all?

Bruce Fogle1:54

Yes, of course. People who won't be able to do that. Of course, but I mean, let's take I'll let me take myself as an example. Now that the kids have left home and I have a seven-month-old pup, we think the sun shines out of every little bit of this golden retriever. And when she first started to tear up a napkin, we thought that was really funny. And now when she tears up the post when it comes through the door, it's less funny. We allow our dogs and our cats to get away with things that we really wouldn't allow our children to get away with.

Presenter2:25

But is that why you find owners as interesting as the pets? And and do you, indeed? Because from what you say, we are an extraordinary.

Bruce Fogle2:33

Yeah, perhaps even more so in a country like this. The further north in Europe you go.

Presenter2:40

So we're worse we're worse at it, are we than than the Americans?

Bruce Fogle2:43

They're more indulgent. Well, they're northern parts of the States, but we're as good as you get when it comes to having very strange relationships with our pets. We don't dress our boxer dogs in peach satin baby doll outfits the way you'll possibly see them in Tokyo or New York. But there's this level of anarchy just underneath the surface. The doorbell in the shape of a golden retriever, the salt and pepper shaker that's shaped of dogs. You go into some homes and I'll say to myself, Oh my God.

Speaker 43:03

Uh

Presenter3:15

But you see I know all kinds of people in your practice because you're near to a housing estate and you're near to smart apar apartments, you know. Do does it cross the classes, this kind of indulgence towards animals?

Bruce Fogle3:25

Oh, sure. I had somebody in yesterday.

Bruce Fogle3:28

A typical virtually late 1970s Kings Road punk. Her head was shaved, she had love and hate tattooed on her knuckles, and she was in because her rat has a mammary tumor. Well, the tears that she was shedding for her rat were as intense as the tears that will be shed by James Harriet's Mrs. Pumphrey. The relationship can be as intense, and it can be as intense with any living thing, even something that you sitting there saying, oh my god, a rat.

Bruce Fogle3:58

might find difficult to form a relationship with.

Presenter4:00

I'll say. I'll say. Let's get you to this desert island. No pets, no patients there, but plenty of music. What's your first piece?

Bruce Fogle4:08

First record is Some Lives Roll Easy. It's a Paul Simon song, and it's there because.

Bruce Fogle4:15

Some of us have simply landed on our feet. I've had the good luck to have good health in my entire family, including myself, to have not made active premeditated decisions, to have simply fallen into things. The career I went into, the country I've ended up living in. Life's been quite easy so far.

Speaker 44:35

Some folks like roll easy.

Speaker 44:42

As of reeds.

Speaker 44:47

Drifted through a summer night

Speaker 44:54

For a sunny day

Speaker 45:01

But most folks lie.

Presenter5:05

Some Folks Lives Roll Easy sung by Paul Simon.

Presenter5:09

Um extreme anthropomorphism, Bruce Fogel, is is potty really, degree of madness there. But on the other hand, I think a lot of us do feel that when we're feeling a b a bit glum and sitting in the chair and the golden retriever comes along and puts its nose on our knee and looks up at us with those wonderful doe eyes, that it kind of knows we're feeling glum.

Presenter5:28

Not pulse?

Bruce Fogle5:29

I think they do. I think that, um

Bruce Fogle5:32

Dogs in particular, a gregariously sociable species.

Bruce Fogle5:37

And they can notice the slight slump to the shoulders.

Bruce Fogle5:41

And if we're feeling glum is more a dog is more likely than not. If it's formed an attachment to you, if it's part of your pack.

Bruce Fogle5:48

We'll come over and give you the whites of the eyes routine.

Presenter5:51

What is this pack? You say we're the leader of the pack. What do you mean when you say that?

Bruce Fogle5:55

Won't

Bruce Fogle5:56

Dogs and humans happen to share a number of social characteristics, and dogs live as packs.

Bruce Fogle6:02

As we do.

Bruce Fogle6:04

The social structure is very similar. I remember watching a Thai general apologize to the king of Thailand for doing something. And he crawled towards the king, averting his gaze, keeping his head to the side. And to me it was identical to the way a dog will say I'm sorry to the to the leader of the pack, the wolf.

Presenter6:23

Uh

Bruce Fogle6:26

Now we've modified dogs' behavior slightly from the wolf, but all the basic behavior is identical to the. But you still say.

Presenter6:32

But you you still say you still say that they are they are parasites. I mean, from what I've read of of your theories, you imply that they they are parasites on us, that they are carnivores, we supply the meat, so they've sort of tucked in under and they have a jolly nice time. But there's a kind of ulterior motive there. This it's a game they're playing.

Bruce Fogle6:50

We like to think that we domesticated the wolf and created the dog, but it's far more likely that the wolf self domesticated. We got rid of the large predators from around our campsite, so that made it a bit better. We had refuse, and the wolf is a scavenger, so there was food there.

Bruce Fogle7:08

And when ethologists and anthropologists have looked at the natural changes to the wolf.

Bruce Fogle7:15

As it became the dog, its brain shrank the dog's brain is only two thirds the size of the wolf.

Bruce Fogle7:22

Because it didn't need as much brain power for territory mapping, how to find its way back.

Bruce Fogle7:30

But it was self-domesticated. It moved in and it found that there were advantages living by us. But it was.

Presenter7:32

Yeah.

Presenter7:35

But it found us who wanted to keep pets, and we are, you say, the only species who keep pets. That's phenomenal.

Bruce Fogle7:44

We are probably the only species, but there have been these fascinating observations of gorillas keeping kittens.

Bruce Fogle7:52

As pets. And when the language experiments in chimpanzees were at their height in the States in the 80s, there was one occasion where a chimpanzee had a kitten, and the kitten was killed in a road traffic accident, and it used standard American sign to ask for another kitten. So it may well be that keeping animals for companionship is a primate characteristic, and that we're not the only primate that does so.

Presenter8:18

Pickle number two.

Bruce Fogle8:20

When I was a child, I came from a musical family. My father's oldest brother was the concert master of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra.

Bruce Fogle8:28

and it was expected that I would play the fiddle.

Bruce Fogle8:32

And my uncle would introduce me to my lessons by playing Danny Kaye doing something. He was there to get me interested in classical music. He failed. He got me interested in watching Danny Kaye films.

Bruce Fogle8:45

But his narrating Tubby the Tuba is still something that I think any child would enjoy listening to.

Speaker 48:50

Can you sing? asked Tubby.

Speaker 48:52

Can I sing? Listen.

Speaker 48:55

War, War, War, Or War, War, War, War, War, War, War, War, World, War, One. Um, um

Speaker 49:12

Oh, that's lovely, said Tubby.

Speaker 49:15

You try it, said the frog.

Presenter9:17

Yeah.

Speaker 49:17

Oh, thank you.

Presenter9:17

You said Tubby.

Speaker 49:18

Yeah.

Speaker 49:19

Yeah.

Presenter9:19

Danny Kaye and Tubby the Tuber takes you back. What were all these pets you and your family kept when you were a boy?

Bruce Fogle9:26

My father was a florist, but he kept and bred budgies at his flower shop.

Bruce Fogle9:33

So we had lots of budgies at home, and he kept rescuing anything that he could find. He would bring home any injured animal. I can't recall him ever taking any interest in them. They were then my mother's responsibility to uh to mend. I I don't know if she ever successfully mended ev anything, but we always had wildlife in the house.

Presenter9:50

birds that had fallen out of nests.

Bruce Fogle9:51

Spurge

Bruce Fogle9:53

and mammals.

Bruce Fogle9:54

He'd find a young mink injured on the road and and would bring it home and it was simply there.

Presenter10:00

And and did you treat a dog like a dog, as you now believe you should, or did they sleep on your beds?

Bruce Fogle10:06

The dogs started out living in the kitchen, and they migrated with time into the rest of the house.

Bruce Fogle10:14

Until finally the Orchard Terriers were actually underneath the bed covers with me.

Presenter10:20

Hmm, I see. So you have been there, you have done that?

Bruce Fogle10:21

Yeah.

Presenter10:22

There's obviously a hugely happy family, did did they?

Presenter10:25

Did they decide that your ambition was to be a doctor? I mean, was this a sort of.

Bruce Fogle10:31

My mother's family is medical. My dad's was uh on the music side, but um my mother's maiden name was Breslyn, and I remember counting uh I had nineteen.

Bruce Fogle10:40

Uncles or cousins who were doctors.

Bruce Fogle10:43

It was simply assumed that I'd go into human medicine.

Bruce Fogle10:47

I didn't go into veterinary medicine because I had planned to do so.

Bruce Fogle10:52

I decided to apply to study veterinary medicine because my best friend, a cousin, was going to go to veterinary school and I thought it would be fun to go to university with him. And in fact, he dropped out at the last minute and went into human medicine.

Bruce Fogle11:05

And I continued

Bruce Fogle11:07

I didn't drop out, so I ended up in veterinary medicine as a negative rather than a positive.

Presenter11:11

As you say, it's all luck along the way. We shall hear more, but tell me about your third record.

Bruce Fogle11:15

Well, Donna Summer singing State of Independence, and especially when she has a choir that consists of Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder and Quincy Jones and Lionel Ritchie, it was a great song in the 60s. The American civil rights movement had just begun, and a number of us either wanted to get involved or did get involved. And her song exemplified more than simply the independence of falling in love, which is what I think the song is really about.

Speaker 411:44

Of independence shall be disdained of independence.

Speaker 411:48

It shall be

Presenter12:12

State of Independence, sung by Donna Summer and an all star choir, including Quincy Jones, Lionel Ritchie, and Stevie Wonder, and memories for Bruce Fogel of the University of Toronto, where you studied Bruce Veterinary Medicine, but got chucked out after two years, complete disaster, and then two years later you were back in at top of the class. So what changed? What happened?

Bruce Fogle12:31

It was more than a mild surprise to fail at something.

Bruce Fogle12:34

And not knowing what to do, I got a job as a lab technician at the Virus Research Institute. I was given a responsibility to work on a project to determine the cause of an overwhelming loss of life in a couple of turkey farms. On these turkey farms, 100,000 turkey poults had died within a period of a week.

Bruce Fogle12:54

The virologists very quickly determined that this was an influenza A virus.

Bruce Fogle13:00

and my responsibility was to do part of the detective work.

Bruce Fogle13:03

What type, and where did it come from?

Bruce Fogle13:07

And that involved

Bruce Fogle13:09

Finding out that this virus was related to a virus that was found in the common tern flying from South Africa to Scotland. It was related to a virus that caused turkey sniffles in turkey farms in Massachusetts.

Bruce Fogle13:24

And I just had no idea that veterinary medicine could be so exciting.

Presenter13:28

And in you went, and you did all that, and in the end you were very interested. Y your attention was captured, you qualified, had various jobs, and you came over to London Zoo, I think, in the early seventies. What did you do there?

Bruce Fogle13:40

I worked as a clinician, kangaroos that couldn't hop, rhias that would swallow lolly sticks. We also did surveys. My boss would decide, let's x-ray all the cats, look at their bones, and we'd find uh vitamin A deficiency and then look back at the diet.

Presenter13:57

But up until this point you hadn't been involved in in in uh professionally with domestic animals at all. How did how did you cross the divide? How did that come about?

Bruce Fogle14:06

While I was at the zoo, I was offered a job by a vet working in central London.

Bruce Fogle14:12

So I took the job and decided to stay for two years, gain experience in companion animals, in dogs and cats, and of course meet a variety of clients. And one of them was a small but perfectly formed blonde who came in I could say with her dog

Bruce Fogle14:30

Because uh

Presenter14:31

That too is smaller company for a while.

Bruce Fogle14:32

Yes, that's right. Gold retriever and her owner. Julia came in. My wife is Julia Foster.

Bruce Fogle14:39

And I I didn't recognize her.

Presenter14:41

But a well-known actress at that point.

Bruce Fogle14:43

But a very well-known actress. She had done films like Half a Sixpence and Alfie with Michael Caine.

Bruce Fogle14:50

And the dog got better, but she kept bringing honey back.

Bruce Fogle14:54

And after I didn't pick up what I was supposed to pick up, she invited me out.

Presenter14:59

And there we go.

Bruce Fogle14:59

So we we met over a warm smiling dog.

Presenter15:03

Hence your next record, I take it.

Bruce Fogle15:05

Yes, Alfie, the the song Alfie by Bert Bachrach. But I heard Bert Bachrach actually sing it himself on Swedish television where he was picking up some award. And his voice is so terrible that you actually pay attention to the lyrics. We've got a little bit of the of the lyrics here. They're terrific lyrics, especially if you drop the word Alfie out of them.

Speaker 415:24

What's it all about? How feel?

Speaker 415:34

What's it all about?

Speaker 415:37

When you sort it out, Alphie

Speaker 415:42

Are we meant?

Speaker 415:43

To take more?

Speaker 415:45

Then we give

Speaker 415:49

Or are we meant?

Presenter15:52

To be kind.

Presenter15:54

Alfie, sung briefly by Bert Bacharach himself. You get all um human pet owning life through the door of your practice now, Bruce. Um is it true, do pet owners look like their pets, or vice versa?

Bruce Fogle16:07

Lots of us do. We we do it because we choose dogs or cats that either are manifestations of our own personalities or fill voids in our personalities.

Bruce Fogle16:20

if we take as almost caricatures, the woman who keeps her hair immaculately groomed may well feel comfortable with a poodle that can be given a topiary cut that that has it exactly the way she wants it to be. The the the the similarity in looks is

Bruce Fogle16:38

It's sometimes deceptive. You can have a meek individual who might have a fierce dog.

Bruce Fogle16:45

And that dog is then f filling the void. I I really would like to have teeth as big as these gnashers here. And because I don't have them, I've got this ill-disciplined dog that is the way I'd really like to be.

Presenter16:56

But how much does that apply across the world? Because as I said at the beginning, your books have become international bestsellers because you became interested in what had not been written about before, that is this relationship, and not just in the superficial sense we've just been talking about, between the pet and its owner. How much do we differ from other nations in the way that we treat our dogs?

Bruce Fogle17:19

Well, in in various nations, other nations, dogs can be status symbols or icons of a specific group within that.

Bruce Fogle17:27

In Far Eastern countries, the importation of Western breeds of dogs will exemplify importing Western culture. I'll have a Yorkshire Terrier or a Golden Retriever rather than a Sheba dog or an Akita, an indigenous breed, to show that I've imported certain characteristics, certain aspects of Western culture. The relationship eventually becomes the same.

Bruce Fogle17:52

It fascinates me how it takes only a generation for the relationship to to become the same. And this has been quite dramatic in Japan, where the pre war generation's attitude towards dogs is wholly different to the postwar generation.

Speaker 418:06

Can you explain it?

Bruce Fogle18:07

You can

Bruce Fogle18:09

My Editor in Japan.

Bruce Fogle18:12

sent me an email, and it described the fact that uh her cat had died.

Bruce Fogle18:17

and she and her husband had been so upset that their cat had died that neither of them could go to work.

Bruce Fogle18:24

She mentioned this to her mother, who said Pull yourself together and get another cat.

Bruce Fogle18:29

Because her mother came from a generation when a cat simply lived outdoors and fended for itself and found its own food, and perhaps on occasion.

Bruce Fogle18:39

Would be given something. But to this woman, a career.

Bruce Fogle18:44

woman working in publishing, the cat was at this point her child.

Bruce Fogle18:48

So they had gone from her her mother's attitude, which was very

Bruce Fogle18:53

common in her parents' generation to her attitude, which is now the normal in urban Japanese society within such a short period of time.

Presenter19:02

Click on number five.

Bruce Fogle19:04

The Ying Tong song is something that I used to sing to my kids when they were little. And when I asked them what are your favorite songs, because if you don't come up with a favorite song, I'm simply going to suggest what would get you out of your foul moods when you were little.

Bruce Fogle19:20

Ben and Tamara, my two youngest, went Please, please, please, the Ying Tong song

Speaker 419:40

Tong ting tong ding tong ding tong king tong little abo. Tong king tong ding tong little bow.

Presenter19:55

The Yingtong song sung by the goons. Not only do we overfeed our dogs, we do all sorts of things badly with our pets, I know, Bruce, and people like you never cease to tell us this. But apparently, we can train them not by shouting at them. Indeed, we shouldn't shout at them. We can train them silently. How does that work?

Bruce Fogle20:14

It became popular starting in the um

Bruce Fogle20:18

Well, in the 70s, but there was a book written in the late 1960s by a silent order of monks in upstate New York.

Bruce Fogle20:25

The Monks of New Skeet

Bruce Fogle20:27

And they felt to maintain the silence within the community that their dogs should be trained to sign commands, moving your arms up and down.

Bruce Fogle20:37

And that evolved into using sign language, using hand movements, to train dogs in general. Now dogs are, of course, very good at learning to respond to sign language because they're good observers of body language.

Bruce Fogle20:53

So it's quite simple for a dog to understand that if your hand goes up into sort of a stop position, palm facing the dog and going towards the dog, that means stay.

Presenter21:04

And it's a bit like a policeman controlling the traffic, is it?

Bruce Fogle21:06

Yes, we've learned to watch policemen sign language without hearing them. And dogs can do it as well.

Presenter21:11

Presumably the the dog has to concentrate that much harder if it's if it's watching for for sign language and body language of that kind. It's gonna watch you much more keenly, isn't it? Going to think about it more.

Bruce Fogle21:20

Think about it more. Yes, you have to gain the dog's attention. It has to be looking at your eyes so that it can pick up what you want it to do.

Presenter21:30

And how can you therefore reprimand a dog under that kind of regime, if you really want to tell it off?

Bruce Fogle21:36

Oh, exactly the way my mother used to reprimand me the single finger, pointed, wagging up and down. A dog a dog will understand that very easily.

Presenter21:44

But should you ever hit a dog?

Bruce Fogle21:46

There's no need to hit a dog.

Presenter21:48

But if it's sheep worrying or something, what should you do?

Bruce Fogle21:51

If there's a life-threatening situation such as sheep worrying, hitting the dog probably isn't going to be as much of a discipline to get it off the fact that it wants to kill the sheep. And there are other ways, more technical ways. Curiously, simply putting on a collar that emits an aerosol. Trainers did an aerosol collar that squirted citronella in the dog's face. And then some people said, well, maybe we can get away without the citronella, and it just went pss.

Bruce Fogle22:17

And that's all that's needed. Whereas hitting it, it'll know that you're upset and it might become fearful of your hand.

Bruce Fogle22:24

But if it has, for example, an aerosol in its face and you're nowhere around, it has trained itself. Something unpleasant has occurred on its own.

Bruce Fogle22:34

The variation of that is the cat jumping up onto the kitchen work surface. You stick double-sided two-inch wide sticky tape and it jumps up in your absence and goes, Yuck!

Bruce Fogle22:44

That's disgusting, and it won't do it again.

Presenter22:48

Next record

Bruce Fogle22:49

Next record is I'm Gonna Go Fishing. It's Doctor John, who's a singer with a deep voice out of New Orleans. I'm Gonna Go Fishing is to me summer.

Bruce Fogle23:00

It's the fact that throughout my childhood my father was out fishing hoping to catch the biggest muskie in the lake, and he never did. Then it was my children standing at the edge of the dock fishing and catching fish bigger than my dad caught. It's just an easy summer song.

Speaker 423:16

Whoops is Maumee.

Speaker 423:18

Wanted to die?

Speaker 423:21

Then I remembered, yes I knew why.

Speaker 423:26

She was a good one.

Speaker 423:28

Dash it coming, please.

Speaker 423:30

I'm gonna go to see.

Speaker 423:34

Jump in and leave.

Speaker 423:44

I won't go busy.

Presenter23:47

Doctor John, and I'm gonna go fishing. You're one of the co-founders, Bruce Fogel, of Dogs for the Deaf, rather like Dogs for the Blind. How successful are dogs in that role, and how does it work?

Bruce Fogle23:58

The dogs um are trained to do perfectly natural things.

Bruce Fogle24:03

Here's something.

Bruce Fogle24:04

and go to the source of the sound.

Bruce Fogle24:07

But we intervene, and when the dog hears that sound, instead of going to the sound, it goes to the leader of the pack.

Bruce Fogle24:13

and goes Oi, you.

Bruce Fogle24:15

Come with me.

Bruce Fogle24:17

So, if a dog hears somebody knock on the door, the dog simply goes over to its deaf owner.

Bruce Fogle24:23

scratches at her leg or gets her attention and and takes her there.

Presenter24:27

Yeah.

Bruce Fogle24:27

Then

Bruce Fogle24:28

leads her to the door so she knows that uh there has been a noise at the door.

Presenter24:31

But there has

Presenter24:32

Hmm.

Bruce Fogle24:33

They're trained to wake up their owners when the alarm clock goes off. Although we had a problem. Very early on, we had a problem where we trained a dog to respond to the alarm clock. We brought the deaf individual into the training center. Everything went perfectly. The dog then moved into her home. And each time the dog woke her up in the morning, it vomited. And we couldn't work out what was going on. We brought her back and it continued. We finally sent the trainer to her home and she had a water bed. When the dog hopped up onto the bed, because this woman wanted it up on her bed to actually lick her to wake her up.

Bruce Fogle25:11

It found the motion on the water bed was so distasteful that it went

Presenter25:15

Gutsizik

Bruce Fogle25:16

So every dog is trained very specifically for the recipient.

Presenter25:19

And these are recycled dogs, you say? What are you doing?

Bruce Fogle25:22

The vast majority are dogs that come out of dog shelters. The National Canine Defense League has been a major source of dogs.

Presenter25:30

So any dog can be trained to do this.

Bruce Fogle25:32

Not any dog. Lots of terriers are too feisty. It can go to their heads. They can go Hey, I'm the leader of the pack here.

Bruce Fogle25:42

And we had a few problems in the in the eighties where the terrier had decided, well, I'm the boss now, and the owner would want to sit down on the sofa and it would go, uh-uh, this is my sofa. What works best is a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Presenter25:57

A mangrove.

Bruce Fogle25:58

Cross between

Bruce Fogle25:59

Poodle and Cocker Spaniel. Cocker Pooh makes a

Presenter26:01

Uh

Bruce Fogle26:02

A great combination of cockapoos. Poodle crossed with almost anything is terrific. They're they're alert, responsive dogs.

Presenter26:04

Cockapoo.

Presenter26:13

What about you over the years, Bruce? You've been very outspoken about animals and indeed their owners. But are there some pets or animals of any kind that you see coming in and you think, I really don't want to go in this? I know that that thing is psychopathic, if you're really being honest.

Bruce Fogle26:28

A wrought wiler owned by a wimp.

Bruce Fogle26:31

because I know that the dog won't have received any training, and because the poor things have had their tails chopped off, they're not going to give me the body language signals that a tail will give me. And Rottweiler owners will say, Well, it's easy to understand when they're going from

Bruce Fogle26:47

Good to bad. Watch their eyes dilate. Well, I wear glasses, so I have to be about six inches away from them to watch that.

Presenter26:55

Terrifying. Record number seven.

Bruce Fogle26:58

I don't know why I ended up in Britain. It's another one of those little quirks. And you could say that I'm an economic migrant, that I came here because the salaries were so good, or I love the weather. But Willie Nelson's Living in the Promised Land is a it he sang about how magnificent the United States is. And it's a funny song coming from the garrulous, unshaven Willie Nelson. I think it's a great song.

Speaker 427:26

Give us your daily bread.

Speaker 427:29

We have no shoes to wear.

Speaker 427:33

No place to call our

Speaker 427:36

Only this cross to bear.

Speaker 427:39

We are the multitude.

Speaker 427:43

Lend us a helping hand

Speaker 427:47

Is there no love in evil?

Speaker 427:50

Living in the promised land.

Presenter27:53

Millie Nelson and living in the Promised Land. You've got an advantage, Bruce Fogel, over the average castaway, because of your profession, the nature of your profession, you therefore are quite used to dealing with strange animals and won't be so worried about the indigenous population. I gather you even will allow a tarantula to crawl up your arm.

Bruce Fogle28:11

Any vet who's had to appear on television has to go through the obligatory tarantula walking up the arm. And it was in fact fascinating because they weigh a lot more than you'd expect them to weigh. And there's nothing really offensive about their looks. I guess unless you have an intense arachnophobia. And yes, in practice you see the routines, the snake that's bitten an electric flex and has to have its mouth treated. And it's part of the terrain.

Presenter28:39

It has to be said that your son Ben, Ben Fogel, was highly successful recently on the BBC Television's Castaway programme, so perhaps self-sufficiency runs in the family. Who knows?

Bruce Fogle28:48

It was interesting when he came back. He went through a period, and I if he doesn't mind my talking on his behalf, I think he's still going through a period where he's wondering where reality lies. Was the life that he led on his island in the Western Isles real life, or is life as he now is experiencing it in London real life?

Bruce Fogle29:09

And I know where his uh emotions are shifting him, and they're the same as mine, that living in a place like Terence A as he did uh is reality.

Presenter29:19

Last record.

Bruce Fogle29:20

The last record is by a piano player named Hank Jones.

Bruce Fogle29:25

The reason for choosing Hank Jones, and he's playing an old Southern spiritual called It's Meo Lord.

Bruce Fogle29:32

I guess he's about eighty five, and he's just the coolest guy going.

Bruce Fogle29:37

And I figure if you can grow

Bruce Fogle29:40

old gracefully the way he does, and you can still play the piano the way he does. That's my objective.

Presenter30:46

Hank Jones playing It's Me, O Lord. Now, if you could only take one of the eight records there, just one with you, Bruce, which one would you take?

Bruce Fogle30:54

I'd probably take the Hank Jones, because I'll be there for a long time.

Presenter30:59

And it goes on.

Bruce Fogle30:59

And that and yeah, and so it's aspirational.

Presenter31:03

What about your book?

Bruce Fogle31:05

I know I'm not supposed to leave the island, but I'd I take a book called Canoe Craft. All Canadians when they retire and can no longer do what they used to be able to do,

Bruce Fogle31:16

Move out to the country to the cottage and build canoes. I'd really love to build a canoe. And the book is simply how to build the canoe.

Presenter31:24

And you'll just go round the island in it, won't you? There's no way you'll see sail for the horizon. Yes, as long as you don't just sort of shoot out.

Bruce Fogle31:27

Am I allowed to?

Bruce Fogle31:29

No, fine.

Bruce Fogle31:33

sanding it down and just finishing it off properly.

Presenter31:37

What about your luxury?

Bruce Fogle31:39

If it's permitted, a molecular engineering lab, because I would like to construct my own dog.

Presenter31:44

Construct your own dog.

Bruce Fogle31:47

I'm not allowed to take anything living.

Bruce Fogle31:50

But I could take a lab, could I not? Not a Labrador, a laboratory.

Presenter31:55

And you think you could achieve this while you're there? Just sort of not sweetened.

Bruce Fogle31:55

And you think

Bruce Fogle31:58

Well, there is this hypothesis that you could take a mastodon and recreate it out of a little bit of DNA from a bone, so I'd like to give it a try.

Presenter32:07

Bruce Vogel, thank you very much indeed for letting us see your desert islanders.

Bruce Fogle32:11

You're very welcome.

Speaker 232:19

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.