Cormac Murphy O'Connor

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and one, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:29

My Costaway this week is a Catholic priest. It runs in his family. Although his father was a doctor, two of his brothers and three of his uncles went into the priesthood. He trained in Rome, worked in a Portsmouth parish, and then, aged nearly forty, was asked to return to Rome to become rector of the college where he trained, a very privileged position.

Presenter0:49

From there he became the Bishop of Arundel and Brighton, and after twenty two years in the post might have expected to stay there until retirement but last year another call came, this time to lead the Catholics of England and Wales as Archbishop of Westminster.

Presenter1:04

Men have forgotten God, he says, quoting Solzhenitsyn, but he believes they'll remember him again. People are searching for meaning, he goes on, and coming back to questions which are ultimately religious ones. He is His Eminence Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor.

Presenter1:21

Double-barrelled Irish name there, Cardinal. Um you get two of the most popular names. Are you doubly Irish?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor1:27

Well, it is it is a bit strange and a bit of a mouthful. Well, it goes back to the last century, I think. There was a Murphy and there was an O'Connor. As I understand it, the the O'Connor had uh had children and the Murphy didn't. So uh the children of the O'Connor got the Murphy as well, plus the property.

Presenter1:43

And they ran a wine wine.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor1:44

They run a wine business in Cork, yes.

Presenter1:47

What about the Cormac?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor1:48

Well, Cormac is a is a sort of Celtic pilgrim saint. And I was always amused when uh well, I went on a holiday to the uh outer Hebrides and I came across a stone and the stone was written Pilgrim Cormack and underneath were written the words He went beyond what was deemed possible. So that that was Cormack, uh a sort of adv adventurer uh saint or

Presenter2:10

Going beyond what was deemed

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:11

Well, probably for me too, I must have thought.

Presenter2:14

Well, you've certainly gone a long way. I mean, uh, as I say, you needn't you might have spent the rest of your days in in Arundel, mightn't you?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:14

What you said

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:15

I mean as I said

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:20

Well indeed that's what I was expecting. So to come up here to Westminster is probably what I thought beyond what was deemed possible. But here I am.

Presenter2:22

Uh

Presenter2:28

But here I am. Does that go with the job of West Lee City?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:32

Yeah, does that

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:34

Well, n normally it does. All my predecessors ha have been cardinals.

Presenter2:37

And what that means, of course, is that you go into the conclave to choose the next Pope.

Presenter2:43

What it also means is, you could be the next poet.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor2:46

That technically, I think, a remote possibility, but it's true. There are a hundred and forty of us, I think, who are electors. So it does mean that when this Pope dies, and assuming I don't die before him, you never know, that I go into the conclave, which is a very solemn thing to do, and to choose the successor to the the present pope.

Presenter2:46

That it is?

Presenter3:05

Yeah.

Presenter3:08

And they don't come out until they've chosen.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor3:09

And they don't come out. It could be a day, it could be a week. In the past, sometimes there was a mob outside saying, when are you going to end? It took a month.

Presenter3:18

But every one of those cardinals in there must have at the back of his mind it could be me.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor3:24

Well, you know, I suppose that could be a fleeting thought for some of them for many of them, maybe.

Presenter3:29

Mind you.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor3:30

Yeah.

Presenter3:30

Yeah. Stranger things have happened if we're talking about you. Didn't your one of your brothers not one of the priests, I have to say, but the doctor win an outside bet on your becoming the archbishop.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor3:38

He did, but he didn't tell me how much he put on. But he got good on. I think so. I think so.

Presenter3:45

Tell me about your first record.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor3:47

Well, I I've always loved the piano. I've learnt the piano from a very early age, and uh one of my favorite composers is Chopin. So I've chosen uh one of his etudes, which I think is like Likrid, and it just shows Chopin at his lovely best.

Presenter4:57

Maurizio Pollini playing Chopin's Etude No. One in A flat major, the Aeolian Harp Etude. How much do you play these days?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:05

Not as much as I I'd like to. I mean, in my study I have an upright piano. Occasionally I get fed up of at the desk or whatever. I go over and play a few things.

Presenter5:14

But how good are you? I expect you're very good'cause you've played from a small boy, haven't you?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:16

Is it played for me?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:17

Well, I started learning when I was six and and I went up to to about grade seven or eight, I think.

Presenter5:23

I have this image of you, I have to say, that that for your twenty two years in as the Bishop of Abrington and Brighton, that you sat in this wonderful house with rolling country views at your grand piano.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:24

Really?

Presenter5:34

Had a wonderful time, and now you've sort of had to move to the centre of London, age nearly seventy, in a sort of much smaller place in Victoria with no view.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:40

Much smaller pleasure.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:42

Well

Presenter5:43

And an upright pianist.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor5:45

Well, you're you're in a way I think you're right. I mean, I had a lovely house in in Storrington. Fernando's uh somebody had had lent me a grand piano, so I used to go out and and pray and look up at the downs. Yes, it was very different. And it's very different up here in Westminster. Though I have, I must say, I have a a nice apartment. And next door to my study there is a grand piano.

Presenter6:06

So the call came and you made the move.

Presenter6:09

You always move when the call comes. When did the call first come as a boy?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:15

I was only fifteen, I think. My father's doing calls, these calls, and I was in the car with him, and he suddenly turned to me and said, What are you going to do?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:24

And I hadn't really thought about it. So, you know how things come? And I said, I want to be a priest.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:29

And that was it somehow. And although there were ups and downs after that, I mean,

Presenter6:34

But what was in your mind when you would have said that? What what

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:37

Well, I suppose there were three things that I w uh had in my mind. I either wanted to be a pianist, I could be a doctor like my father, or I could be a priest. You know, I in those days I think choices were I suppose were a little more limited. But that's still quite

Presenter6:50

But that's still quite a wide choice. Why would you choose the priesthood?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:53

Please.

Presenter6:53

Uh

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:53

Uh

Cormac Murphy O'Connor6:54

That is something quite mysterious and that has to do with the mystery of vocation, the mystery that maybe the good Lord had sort of imprinted it in my own mind, in my own heart. This is what maybe you should do.

Presenter7:08

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor7:08

Record number two.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor7:10

Well mind record number two. It reminds me of um

Cormac Murphy O'Connor7:14

Time when I was a young curate down in Portsmouth. I had a youth club, and it was the time of the Beatles. Twist and shout, yeah, yeah, yeah. The youth club went mad for those first couple of years, and they were very happy times. They were great kids. So I'd like to have one Beatles record yesterday. Though I wouldn't like your listeners to think all my troubles seem so far away.

Speaker 37:36

Yesterday.

Speaker 37:39

All my troubles seem so far away

Speaker 37:44

God looks as though they're here to stay, Oh I believe

Speaker 37:51

Yesterday, suddenly.

Speaker 37:56

I'm not half the man I used to be

Speaker 38:01

There's a shadow hanging over me Oh yes The beetle

Presenter8:06

The Beatles and Yesterday and memories of being a parish priest in Fareham and running the youth club. So your your father was a G P, as you say. It was your mother who encouraged you to play the piano, and your mother who encouraged you apparently to speak French.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor8:19

Yes. My mother was very keen on French. She insisted that at lunch time because we were, I suppose, a very traditional sort of family, you'd have my father at at the head of the table, my mother on his left, and then the five boys. I have a sister as well, who was very precious because she came ten years later.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor8:36

There'd be a silence, you see, and then one of my brothers would say, Vaux les vouma passe le pomme de terre and we'd all start giggling, you see. And so would my father, and and my poor mother, we never quite lived up to her expectations of being bilingual.

Presenter8:53

She was uh a lot younger than your father. She was, yes. He ne he nearly didn't marry her, I gather.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor8:55

She was, yes, yes.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor9:00

Well, yes, he had intended, I think, to marry somebody else, and then, um, quite unexpectedly, the somebody else brought her best friend along, who was my mother, and he fell in love with my mother.

Presenter9:09

Mm-hmm.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor9:10

Yeah.

Presenter9:10

And but he was quite a stickler, although he laughed at the French. He was he apparently set you tasks, you five boys, didn't he?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor9:16

Oh, he's always doing that.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor9:18

Or then my three older brothers once, we used to go to to Ireland for holidays, and he decided that the three of them should cycle over to Ireland. He got them on the train first of all to Bristol, I think. And then he put postal orders in every big town all along the South Wales. So they only had enough to get to the next post office, to get money to go to that. So they did that. My mother was very fearful, she thought, these poor boys, youngsters. And eventually she waited to hear from them. Eventually a postcard did come through. They'd just crossed over on the boat. And the postcard said, all sick, no money, love Jim.

Presenter9:55

Terrifying.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor9:56

I'm terrified for my poor mother, Hennett.

Presenter9:58

But they made it in the end.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor9:58

They made it, yes.

Presenter10:00

And you all had the same education, you five boys.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor10:03

Yes, well we started school in in in Reading, then we went away to a school in Bath and uh

Cormac Murphy O'Connor10:08

From there I went on to Rome.

Presenter10:10

And so and so did two of your brothers. Three of you went on to the English college. All three of you who wanted to be priests. And the and then the fourth one became a doctor.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor10:15

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor10:17

And the fifth one joined the joined the army, the regular army.

Presenter10:22

Next record.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor10:23

Well, the next r record is about my Rome life as a student, where we did all sorts of things. And for recreation, every summer we had a Gilbert and Sullivan opera. And I was the tenor for a lot of them. And we had a lovely place, you know, outside of Rome for a summer break, overlooking a lake. And there was a cortile in this. It was an old monastery. So we I used to sing a wandering minstrel in front of the stars in in this monastery.

Speaker 310:50

Our wandering mimstral eye, A thing of shreds and patules, Of ballad songs and snatches, And dreamy la la bligh My catalogue is long Through every passion ranging And oh your humour's changing, I tuned my somber song I tuned my sorrow

Speaker 311:28

Are you in sanctimental?

Speaker 311:32

I slide with you all.

Speaker 311:37

Oh so

Speaker 311:43

Surprise dignitaries brand the

Speaker 311:45

Of the mighty drugs and go

Presenter11:49

Bonaventuro Bottoni as Nankipoo, singing a wandering minstrel I from Act one of Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado with the English National Opera Orchestra and Chorus conducted by Peter Robinson. You were telling me while we were listening to that, Archbishop, that seven years in Rome from the age of eighteen and you only came home once.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor12:06

That's right, yes. First of all, travel wasn't so easy and expensive. And secondly

Presenter12:06

Yeah, yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor12:12

It was it was a total dedication of your life, really, to becoming a priest. So we lived in Rome for, as I say, seven years.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor12:20

And I can't tell you how lovely it was. But I think it was quite hard on my parents because did they come out?

Presenter12:23

Did they come out to see you?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor12:25

Well, they came out once or twice during my time as a student.

Presenter12:29

Because they were two of your brothers that weren't.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor12:30

Well, for one year we were all together. So they lost three boys? They lost, yes, it was a big sacrifice.

Presenter12:31

So they lost three boys.

Presenter12:34

But you were having a wonderful time.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor12:36

Well we yes, we had a lovely time. This was nineteen fifty to fifty seven and Italy was lovely. And uh we had h holidays from Rome, uh, what we call jeeters. We had no money, you know, at least very little money, but we'd go off in our cassocks and we'd stay at monasteries. And I remember one I was going for uh all round the Umbrian villages one five days. We spent about I think it was two pounds each for the whole week.

Presenter13:00

And you became obviously fluent in Italian.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:03

Well pause there, because although I'd learnt a bit of Italian when I was a student there, really the studies that we did at the university were were all in Latin. So I really learnt Italian better when I went back to Rome as rector, because I had to speak it much more then.

Presenter13:17

Yeah.

Presenter13:19

So that was nearly fifteen years later you went back as as rector of this college, as we say, that that you'd been in. You had a reputation then, uh I gather, for for throwing terrific parties and mixing um a um a killer of a copy.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:21

If you went to the middle of the mid

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:30

Welcome.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:33

Oh my goodness, who's been talking to him?

Presenter13:36

What was the cutter?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:37

Uh

Presenter13:37

Tell me about it.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:38

Well it was a good

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:40

The cocktail was puntamaise, and you mix that with sweet martini. And if you are very daring you might put a dash of gin in. But I wouldn't want to give you the impression that these were terribly rowdy parties, but they were rather nice.

Presenter13:53

But obviously when you were there as a student there was a f a a pretty strict regime as well. If we we're just going to balance this up'cause we're making you sound like a good time boy.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor13:58

Yeah.

Speaker 213:59

Uh

Speaker 313:59

We're out

Speaker 214:00

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor14:03

It was quite a strict regime, yes, in the sense you were up very early for prayer, then lectures in the morning, and then study, and so on.

Presenter14:05

Yeah, it's a

Presenter14:10

But when you went back, when you when you were nearly forty, a very privileged position, as I said in the introduction, to be head of this English college, it would give you entrees into the upper echelons of the Vatican. Now

Presenter14:24

To the rest of us, you know, it's a place shrouded in mystery, conspiracy even. Was it intimidating in there? Was it did do you quickly learn the ropes?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor14:33

I never found Rome intimidating. I found it a very friendly city and uh

Cormac Murphy O'Connor14:38

And within the Vatican too, you know, th it sounds rather grand, but really they're just uh good people t trying to do uh the the best in the job that they have.

Presenter14:45

And and the present Pope, you say, likes a joke.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor14:49

Oh yes. Present Pope, when I first met him, he was cardinal then, and then there was a meeting of English-speaking cardinals and Polish bishops, and we were just having a drink or something, and then suddenly this voice came out. It's the first time I heard this voice came out singing a Polish song, and all the Polish sang this song, beautiful Polish song, which we led. And then I thought, well, we'd better sing something back. But we were there were English speakers from Australia, America, England, it was difficult to find something. My bonny lies over the ocean, I can't remember what it was, we weren't as good as the Po as the Pope.

Presenter15:25

Makes me smooth.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor15:27

Again, I suppose I go back to Rome, and I used to listen to quite a lot of opera, and so I'd like to hear.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor15:33

A song sung by Pavarotti from Tosca, Recondita Armania.

Speaker 315:42

Happy body.

Speaker 315:48

But devil acts at evil.

Speaker 315:59

Ah yeah

Speaker 316:10

Skills at the fucking master's night home!

Speaker 316:34

Uh

Presenter16:38

Pavarotti as Cavaradossi singing Recondita Amonia, Strange Harmony, from Act One of Puccini's Tosca with the National Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Nicola Resigno.

Presenter16:48

From everything you've said so far, Cardinal,

Presenter16:52

It's very obvious that it's possible to be a priest, to be very devout, to live life to very precise and strict rules, and yet at the same time to thoroughly enjoy yourself.

Presenter17:04

And yet there are a dearth of priests. I mean, the figures are pretty shocking, aren't there? Fifteen hundred fewer priests.

Presenter17:11

than there were twenty years ago, and and half of them are over sixty. Why is it such an unpopular vocation, do you think?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor17:17

I often think that

Cormac Murphy O'Connor17:19

Partly the reason for the lack of vocations is not just that obviously that young men aren't coming forward, but it also is it a diminution of faith in the whole Catholic or Christian community? Because priests come when there's a strong, faithful people who are actually living out their Christian faith in a very deep way. When that happens within the community, then priests will come. There will be young men.

Presenter17:44

But I wonder of course one immediately thinks that it must have something to do with the requirement to be celibate, because naturally someone who will make a good priest would make a good father, I would have thought. I mean in the paternal sense. And that's a huge sacrifice to ask of a man's name not to be a father.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor18:01

Yes, I think two things. I think uh uh a priest who would be a good family man, a good father, uh would be a good priest. But I I don't agree that it's got to do with celibacy. And I think you could change the law on celibacy tomorrow and still there would n not be uh

Presenter18:17

Really, even if you said l let let us now ordain married priests.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor18:21

Well, even if you said ordain married men, yes, that might be an answer, and the church may have to consider that, the ordination of married men.

Presenter18:29

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor18:31

Well, I think it already has, and I think when the time is right, maybe that will come about. But I think if you say is the the crisis because of celibacy, I don't think so. And I think that the law of celibacy in in many ways is a very good one. It's a very sacrificial one, it's certainly true. But uh the men who give up totally the gift of of marriage for this, so that they become a, if you like, a father or an elder brother in a different Christian way for the whole of the people, it's very fulfilling, but it's a complex question.

Presenter19:00

But how much uh on the personal level, how much of a hardship has it been for you not to be able to be a husband and a father? You you come, as you say, uh you've described, you know, a a a very full and happy family and

Presenter19:13

You knew, of course, what you were doing when you made your decision, but I wonder if you've looked back on it and thought how sad.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor19:16

Session

Cormac Murphy O'Connor19:18

Well I think of course it can be a struggle. And at times you think it would be very nice to be have a to be married and to have a family and all those good things that are natural.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor19:31

And it would be wrong to say one didn't find that a sacrifice. But I have to say also that

Cormac Murphy O'Connor19:37

The consolations, not so much of celibacy, but what that brings you into in terms of a relationship with so many people and a freedom to exercise it, is also very fulfilling.

Presenter19:48

Record number 5.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor19:50

Well, we talked about the the piano. And when I was in Sussex and Surrey as bishop, they very kindly let me play a sl slow movement of a Mozart piano concerto for a charity, and I enjoyed that very much. So I I'd like to have Mozart, uh, piano concerto number twenty two.

Presenter21:07

Alfred Brendel playing part of the third movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 22 with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, conducted by Sir Charles MacKerris.

Presenter21:15

We mentioned their families, but it's a subject for itself that you've highlighted many times since you've become Archbishop of Westminster. You say it's the area of modern life, the family, where, and I quote you, the slippage of values is most damaging. What precisely do you mean by that?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor21:32

Well, I think that uh where children learn about love, forgiveness, stability is within the home. And uh that home, as the norm, should be father and mother. While I understand the breakups and the sadnesses, at the same time I think that uh the way th marriage has been fragmented in our society is one of its greatest evils, the society today.

Presenter21:55

You've quoted someone as as putting it, and I think this is very much what you believe, isn't it, that we've divorced sex from love, love from commitment, marriage from having children, children from the responsibility of

Cormac Murphy O'Connor22:03

Yeah.

Presenter22:08

Having to care for them. Do you think you can turn society around?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor22:12

I think we could I think we can improve it. You see, when I talk to to young people and say, What is it you want? Most young people want to grow up and have a stable relationship in marriage.

Presenter22:22

Except that, you know, there are a lot of young people out there, and I think this is the point, isn't it, who don't get married. They do want a stable relationship, as you say, and they do have them, and indeed they have children within that stable relationship. But they would say to you, there is nothing immoral about us.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor22:39

They might say that, but I think I would say I would say to them, there's something better. Because if they are living together

Cormac Murphy O'Connor22:46

There is something missing because there's no permanency about that.

Presenter22:50

They would say there is.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor22:51

Ah, yeah. I mean if in fact uh a couple do stay together totally, well it's a different matter. They are in fact to all intents and purposes married. But I think that the marriage contract and the marriage vow is something that adds stability to this whole area of relationship.

Presenter23:08

Makes a difference.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor23:09

Oh, I think it makes a very great difference. And after all, while there are a lot of people who live together, I think most people want to have a settled relationship within marriage.

Presenter23:18

But as you acknowledged earlier on, people are moving away from the church. You know, there are there aren't so many young men wanting to be priests, the congregations are diminishing.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor23:18

Yeah.

Presenter23:27

Can you go on standing absolutely strong, sturdy, and true where you are, while people move more and more away from you?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor23:35

Well, you saying that people are moving more and more away. I'm not sure about that, because uh w when I talk about uh moral matters I find that people on the whole say we are glad that the Catholic Church says something very clear about morality, social morality, sexual morality. People think sometimes, well, it's very important to be successful, have the crowd with you.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor23:57

I think it was Mother Teresa who said once

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:00

God has called me not to be successful, but to be faithful. And I think that the Catholic Church

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:05

In its moral teaching, Yes, it swims against the tide, but you know, tides come and go But if what we preach and teach is true

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:14

For humanity

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:17

Then that is important.

Presenter24:18

And the people will come back around. Yes.

Presenter24:21

You're an optimist.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:24

I'm hopeful.

Presenter24:26

I could number six.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:28

Well, uh my record number six is uh really, I suppose, coming to London. But uh years ago I used to listen to a programme in town to light, you know, with all the traffic well Stop the traffic. Stop the traffic, yes. So I associate

Presenter24:38

Stop the train.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor24:41

The music of that with Eric Coates and the London Suite. So I'd like one extract from that.

Presenter25:46

Part of Eric Coates' Knightsbridge March played by the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir Charles Groves.

Presenter25:52

The other crisis, Archbishop, that the Roman Catholic Church has faced in this country is, of course, the series of child sex abuse scandals. Some twenty five priests, I think, over the past six years have been convicted.

Presenter26:06

How are you going to tackle that? I know you've asked Lord Nolan to look into it, and I know recommendations are coming through, but.

Presenter26:13

How are you going to destroy the perception that it is possible that the Catholic Church is something of a haven for paedophiles, that they hide behind the cloth and positions of authority in the Church?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor26:23

Well, I think that, first of all, that over the last nine years, not just through Nor Nolan's report, but also through other recommendations that we've made ourselves as bishops, very careful about who's admitted to seminaries. Apart from that, the child protection procedures, which I think are key really to this, in all parishes, and the care we take, if any allegation is made, that it's treated seriously and competently.

Presenter26:55

You you do now, but obviously in the past you haven't and dreadful things have happened.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor26:58

I think it has to be a lot of

Cormac Murphy O'Connor27:00

I think in the past it's true that allegations that were made were not treated with the seriousness that they should have been. And I think this is to be fair, I think this is true not only of the Catholic Church, I think also in lots of other voluntary organizations.

Presenter27:06

Meta

Presenter27:13

I'm sure that's true. But obviously it seems to me looking at it that that what you've practiced is a kind of forgiveness. You've given people a second chance. I mean and you yourself did as we know with the man you appointed to the chaplaincy in in Gatrick Airport and then he reoffended.

Speaker 227:21

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor27:26

Sure.

Speaker 227:26

Uh

Presenter27:28

The problem is, you're not going to be able to do that, are you? I mean, you are going to have to defrock priests who are.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor27:32

You are that

Cormac Murphy O'Connor27:34

Any priest who is convicted of of uh child abuse now will not be able to continue as a priest. He will be uh suspended, laicized, uh, whatever. There will be no question.

Presenter27:46

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor27:48

More with the same thing, really, yes.

Presenter27:49

Yes, yes, yes. I mean, do you think that that that you and other members of the Catholic Church have been guilty of naivety of perhaps not understanding that this that this kind of

Presenter27:59

The compulsive nature of the

Cormac Murphy O'Connor28:00

I think just speaking for myself, I can honestly say that up until 10, 15 years ago, even as a bishop, I wasn't aware of the compulsive nature of this addiction for paedophiles. And perhaps I should have been. But I don't think I was alone in that. I think we've had to learn a very hard way about this terrible, terrible thing which is child abuse. And that's why we operate now what is called a paramancy principle, namely that the protection of children must be paramount, must be first. And therefore, while there are sometimes allegations that are spurious and it can easily be made, but we have to be sure that at all costs the protection of children has the priority.

Presenter28:50

Yeah.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor28:50

Yeah.

Presenter28:50

Of a sudden.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor28:51

Well, my next uh record is really from the uh Westminster Choir, which is a very high reputation, and rightly so, and I've heard the the choir a lot of times over the past year and a half, and so I'd like to hear them sing.

Presenter30:04

Choir of Westminster Cathedral singing part of the Sanctus from Poulanx Mass in G. I was going to ask you if it's a lonely business being a priest, but I think I've got the impression it isn't.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor30:14

Well, it can be lonely. I suppose m most uh people experience loneliness one time or uh or another. But I think there is a

Cormac Murphy O'Connor30:21

Uh wi within the priesthood, apart from uh you know one's fellow priests, you get very, very friendly with a large number of lay people. I mean every parish I've been in, while I've uh enjoyed the company of all the the parishioners, there's always been a couple of couples or what that you become particularly friendly with, and I think that's true for most priests.

Presenter30:36

Yeah.

Presenter30:38

But have you have you had any dark nights of the soul, any crises along the way?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor30:44

Occasionally I suppose you can kind of wake up at three o'clock in the morning and think, is it all true? You know, and I think faith today is a bit like Abraham's faith. Faith lived in a kind of bit of darkness and that's what faith is. Well exactly. Faith is a gift which enables you to believe even when things don't seem to be heading that way.

Presenter31:11

But when you do w wobble at three o'clock in the morning, is there a particular saint you turn to in that moment?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor31:17

Well, I have a number of favourite saints, but but I I I I often think w when one gets like that, there are two things one ought to do. One is to be quiet before God and let Him, as it were, heal you in other words, in prayer.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor31:33

The second is t to go out and look after or make some gesture towards somebody who's much, much more unfortunate than you are. And that in that that relationship with neighbour and with God at a very deep level is what brings healing.

Presenter31:48

And what will you do on a desert island when there's no one else but you?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor31:53

I don't know, really. I'll I'll swim. I'll uh I'm not very good at looking after myself.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor32:00

I will uh reflect and I'll put up a flag, hoping that someone will come along and rescue me. You'll have faith that will happen.

Presenter32:06

You'll have faith that will happen.

Presenter32:11

Australian code.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor32:12

It's the end of The Dream of Dorontius, and it's about a a man who's d who's dying and going confronting his God. He's thinking of all his his uh his sins. That last journey that we all make is very profoundly expressed.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor32:28

But it ends up with praise to the holiest. In other words, that God in Christ is the victor at the end. And that in spite of all our weakness and all our doubts and all our sins, at the end, the Christian conviction is that God has won the victory. And therefore, at the end, there will be praise and glory because He's all-powerful and all-forgiving.

Presenter33:53

Praise to the Holiest from Part Two of Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius, performed by the London Symphony Chorus and Orchestra conducted by Richard Hickox. If you could only take one of those um records, Cardinal, which one would you take?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor34:04

Well

Cormac Murphy O'Connor34:05

I think I'll probably take the last one. If I I'd I'd like the well, I'd like the whole of the Dream of Johnsius really, but still, anyway.

Presenter34:12

The way to go.

Presenter34:13

What about your book? You get the Bible and you get the complete works of Shakespeare.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor34:18

I've been reading uh some time ago something called Lifelines. It's it's poems that are chosen by about three or four hundred their favourite poem and the reason why they've chosen it. And there's a lovely selection. I love poetry. With it's an introduction by Seamus Heaney. So I think

Cormac Murphy O'Connor34:34

I'd like to take that as a book.

Presenter34:36

And um a luxury. Are you are you going to allow yourself a luxury?

Cormac Murphy O'Connor34:40

Well, may I take this grand piano? Ballroom or it would be rather nice, wouldn't it, behind the tree, to have a have a to have a piano there and improvise.

Presenter34:51

Wonderful. Cardinal Cormac Murphy, O'Connor. Thank you very much indeed for letting us see your desert islands.

Cormac Murphy O'Connor34:55

Thank you very much.

Speaker 235:04

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.