Terry O'Neill

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in two thousand and one, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My Castaway this week is a photographer. He left school at fourteen to pursue a career as a jazz drummer, but he ended up working in a photographic unit at Heathrow Airport. It was there that he captured the then Home Secretary Rab Butler, immaculately dressed and fast asleep on a bench. It was the making of him. He became the youngest photographer in Fleet Street, and in the sixties and seventies his pictures of the rich and famous, from the Beatles to Brigitte Bardot, from Richard Burton to Frank Sinatra, appeared all over the world.

Presenter0:59

He married a Hollywood star, and moved briefly from taking pictures to making them, but by the age of forty-seven he was back in London alone and broke. That was more than fifteen years ago. Today he's back at the top of his profession. Celebrities have been my world, he says. I know more about people looking through the camera than I do talking to them. He is Terry O'Neill. It's a very privileged view, I suppose you get, Terry, isn't it, looking through at people because you don't have that embarrassment of looking into their eyes. They can be embarrassed, but not you.

Terry O'Neill1:32

Now, I mean to see a face close up on a small screen in front of you is incredible. You do see right through to the soul, funnily enough. For me it sounds an old fashioned thing to say, but you do.

Presenter1:39

For me,

Terry O'Neill1:43

And you were totally in control of the whole picture-taking thing anyway.

Presenter1:47

Quite a powerful position, isn't it?

Terry O'Neill1:48

No, you've got to know what you want to get out of somebody. I mean, lots of people just stand back and think the famous person's going to walk in and make a picture. Well, it's the other way round actually. I mean, when they arrive, they don't know it, but I'm looking at which side of their face is best, which angle's the best.

Terry O'Neill2:03

And which eyes bigger? You'd be surprised.

Presenter2:06

But I'm interested in your personality and the exchange you have with the person behind.

Presenter2:11

In front of the camera. What about the Queen? Some years ago, you did that official portrait of her, didn't you?

Terry O'Neill2:15

Yes, well I did too actually. The first time I was really for three months I worried about it, but the second time was absolutely great and it was in a bad year as she put it.

Terry O'Neill2:27

And I just got her to laugh,'cause I noticed the first time when she laughed she made a great picture.

Presenter2:31

How did you get her to laugh?

Terry O'Neill2:33

Oh, I told her a racing joke.'Cause I know she loves racing, so but she's she is a person who comes there, stands there, and then you just tell her exactly what to do. She's a great model.

Presenter2:44

Have you ever photographed anybody famous who just wouldn't cooperate? Because everything we've just talked about requires the person in front of the camera to cooperate, isn't it? I mean, we all know what we're there for, as it were. Got to make a good picture.

Terry O'Neill2:53

Is it a

Terry O'Neill2:55

Couldn't make

Presenter2:57

What about the stars who just can't be bothered?

Terry O'Neill3:00

Well, I wouldn't say can't be bothered, but the worst person of all I did was Robert Redford.

Terry O'Neill3:05

He wanted me to do a a cover for his book jacket.

Terry O'Neill3:09

I just ended up taking the whole twelve frames in the end just to pass the time, but it was an absolute disaster.

Presenter3:14

Why?

Terry O'Neill3:16

Because he he just can't

Terry O'Neill3:18

communicate with a with a like he can with a film camera, but not a still camera.

Terry O'Neill3:23

And he knows it.

Presenter3:24

But how do you explain that? What is it? China's?

Terry O'Neill3:27

Well, I can't, actually. So I mean, I know what it's like, so I I I have great sympathy.

Presenter3:32

Hm. But it is shyness, isn't it, really?

Terry O'Neill3:34

Yes, oh yes.

Presenter3:35

Just fear of being captured in that single phrase.

Terry O'Neill3:38

Yes.

Presenter3:39

But shyness is something you know quite a bit about, I think.

Terry O'Neill3:41

Yeah, well I'm for a shy, that's for sure.

Presenter3:43

We shall talk about it. Let's move to music, because that might have been your career, as I said. Tell me about your first record.

Terry O'Neill3:49

Well it's Bobby Daring singing Alabami bound.

Terry O'Neill3:53

And when I first started photography I worked for a week with him and he's a great singer, great mimic, played the piano vibes and drums. He was an extraordinary character. Unfortunately he died when he was thirty seventh, but he would he was the only one who could have taken over from Frank Sinatra.

Speaker 44:09

I'm Alabama bound. Help me know he bejeebies hang round. Just gave the meanest ticket, man on earth. All I'm worth to put my tootsies in an upper berth. Just hear that choo-choo sound. It means that pretty soon we'll cover ground. And then I'll holler so the world will know. Here I go. I'm Alabama.

Presenter4:39

Bobby Darin singing Alabami Bound. He was one of the first people you photographed, Terry. But Rab Butler, as I said in the introduction, the Home Secretary, was the first.

Presenter4:48

Why at Heathrow Airport, what were you doing there?

Terry O'Neill4:51

I came out of the army and I took a job with BOAC to be a photographer.

Presenter4:56

But you really wanted to be an air steward to go to America, didn't you? That was

Terry O'Neill4:56

But

Terry O'Neill4:58

Yes, so I could carry on playing because you flew for fourteen hours and then you had three days off and then you came back and the same thing happened. So I thought I foresaw a great career playing in America and in England.

Presenter5:10

Playing this jazz drum.

Terry O'Neill5:11

Yes.

Presenter5:12

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill5:13

Part of the thing was you went to an art school once a week.

Terry O'Neill5:17

as part of the training. And they said, Go here, go there or come back next week with a picture story. I thought, well, right on my doorstep is London Airport, where the most incredible things happen.

Terry O'Neill5:30

So

Terry O'Neill5:31

I used to go to the airport on a Saturday and one day I accidentally photographed.

Terry O'Neill5:36

Rap Butler, who I didn't know who Rap Butler was. It was this guy in a pinstriped suit asleep amongst a load of African chieftains.

Terry O'Neill5:44

and a reporter came up and wanted to buy the picture.

Terry O'Neill5:47

And then the pictures are like what you saw on the

Terry O'Neill5:50

film and I had a job

Presenter5:52

Mm. And that picture was published next day, wasn't it? Sunday Dispatch. So in a sense, it launched your career.

Terry O'Neill5:59

Yeah.

Presenter6:00

It was unusual, wasn't it, then? I mean, now if you can get a quick snap of somebody in a kind of odd situation, that's, you know, what people do. But then that was quite new, wasn't it?

Terry O'Neill6:10

Yes. Yeah, well you see it's paparazzi now. They just point the camera and press the button and shoot. I mean the camera takes the picture for them.

Presenter6:18

Mm. But you're really looking for a story. It's a picture that tells a story.

Terry O'Neill6:21

Yeah.

Presenter6:21

As opposed to what really used to be published then, I think, were studio shots of famous people, weren't they?

Terry O'Neill6:26

For famous people weren't they? Well, nobody really used thirty five millimetre name, which was a you know, a smaller camera and it was it was for reportage work.

Presenter6:34

It was Henri Cartier-Bresson, wasn't it, who talked about the decisive moment? Was it had did he say that before you started doing it or after?

Terry O'Neill6:41

Uh before, I think, well about the same time.

Presenter6:44

Yeah, but that is what I mean. I mean, to be fair, you were groundbreaking in that sense, weren't you?

Terry O'Neill6:45

But I think

Terry O'Neill6:48

Yes, weren't you? Oh, yeah, in Fleet Street. There were just two of us. A guy met up with.

Terry O'Neill6:53

A brilliant photographer, and he's about seven, eight years older than me.

Terry O'Neill6:58

He said I need somebody to work with, so I worked with him.

Terry O'Neill7:03

He was an incredible guy.

Terry O'Neill7:05

We used to take like an eatery burger or somebody who came into London, Sophia Loren or something, he'd talk to them and all this, and they'd say, Come down the studios, and then we'd take them out at night. I mean, it was literally.

Presenter7:15

What you took them out on the town?

Terry O'Neill7:18

There was no sort of star then. Everyone was equal. I mean,

Presenter7:21

Sure, but that but that was later. I mean, this is when when we're talking about you just being twenty years old at Heathrow Airport with a camera, you know, have have camera, we'll do something here, I want to get on. This was very glamorous stuff if suddenly you were showing Sophia Lorraine around town, huh?

Terry O'Neill7:26

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill7:28

Right.

Terry O'Neill7:37

Yes, I suppose so. I mean, I didn't look at it like that, funnily enough.

Presenter7:39

How did you look at it?

Terry O'Neill7:41

I didn't really think much of myself. I mean, I was hiding behind a camera.

Terry O'Neill7:45

Really?

Terry O'Neill7:46

And

Terry O'Neill7:48

Anyway, this guy I work with.

Terry O'Neill7:50

Unfortunately he died and then I got offered his job.

Presenter7:53

On the daily sketch.

Terry O'Neill7:53

Yes. I had an incredible life. I mean I dig scoop after scoop after scoop. I mean I used to fill half the paper myself.

Terry O'Neill8:02

I mean, I couldn't go to another paper, they couldn't afford me.

Presenter8:05

But is that because you were doing things that other people didn't do, that other photographers didn't do, they were still looking for the head-on walk-in shot and you were.

Terry O'Neill8:11

Yes.

Presenter8:13

Finding a picture story as well. And the Daily Sketch was the big picture page.

Terry O'Neill8:14

And those sources.

Terry O'Neill8:16

Yes, it was actually. But I got really disenchanted in

Presenter8:20

And it why?

Terry O'Neill8:22

Well,'cause I realized papers, everything's for the day, and the next day there'd be this spike with all the cuttings on, and anything you wanted to follow up, they'd say that's old news.

Presenter8:33

Tell me about your second record.

Terry O'Neill8:35

When I was um started playing the drums, Oscar Peterson was my hero and uh I used to pract do all my drum practice him so I'd like to dedicate to this to him.

Presenter9:44

Oscar Peterson playing Now's the Time with Joe Pass on guitar, Niels Pedersen on bass, and Martin Drew on drums. So, Terry O'Neill, if it hadn't been for that chance picture of Rab Butler, you might have become a jazz musician. But you might also, I understand, and some of your friends may smile at this thought, have become a Catholic priest.

Terry O'Neill10:03

Yeah, that's true, actually. It's school.

Terry O'Neill10:06

I was always topping something one of the things I was topping was religious instruction. It was me and another guy.

Terry O'Neill10:12

And we got picked out to to start an early course for being a priest.

Presenter10:17

But in the end you you you turned away from that training. It wasn't for you. What was wrong? What what what didn't jail for you?

Terry O'Neill10:23

Whoa.

Terry O'Neill10:24

You had to believe that there was a God, and I was always looking for proof.

Terry O'Neill10:28

You know, they say, Well, think of a grain of sand and where did that come from? All sorts of things. Anyway, the only thing that made sense to me was the human eye.

Terry O'Neill10:36

Because I realized you couldn't I mean, you can create a heart and things, but you can't create the eye.

Presenter10:41

So you were ten years old and you picked out the eye as being something unfathomable.

Terry O'Neill10:41

Uh

Terry O'Neill10:44

Yeah, that's something unfathomable. That's the one thing that got me through. But it's the one thing that I couldn't explain.

Presenter10:51

You genuinely believe you could have become a priest. You can still feel inside yourself that that could have happened.

Terry O'Neill10:56

Yes, for sure. I could have stayed shy and all the rest of it and

Terry O'Neill11:01

Never been anybody really.

Terry O'Neill11:03

It's only picking up the camera and having it to walk out into life and slowly take charge and.

Terry O'Neill11:09

direct people it it just sort of grew and grew and grew and and I've become who I am today.

Presenter11:16

You've said you you've said many times now that you were you were a very shy little boy. Do you think that was exacerbated by the fact that your father was quite a dominant man?

Terry O'Neill11:24

Well, I didn't actually see much of my father. I mean, I actually got brought up during the war in an air raid shelter.

Terry O'Neill11:31

Heston Airport was the end of the row, so every night we get bombed or nearly bombed.

Presenter11:36

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill11:37

But I rarely saw my father actually. I don't actually know what happened, but my mother was fantastic.

Presenter11:43

Does that mean that you were quite a lonely little boy, then?

Terry O'Neill11:46

Well, I was. I mean, uh that's what in part led me to being a jazz musician.

Terry O'Neill11:50

I used to spend every night in a room practising till my father came home. He often came home very late, so I had plenty of time.

Terry O'Neill11:58

But then I was so shy, I mean if someone came to the house I hid under the table.

Presenter12:02

Well, you made your own drum kit, I I gather, did you?

Terry O'Neill12:04

Yeah, I did, yeah.

Presenter12:05

Out of what

Terry O'Neill12:06

And

Terry O'Neill12:07

Some golf thing my father won't made like a symbol.

Terry O'Neill12:11

And it actually looks quite good, actually.

Presenter12:14

Record number three.

Terry O'Neill12:15

This is from what I think is the probably the best jazz record about to pick one.

Terry O'Neill12:20

Of Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald singing Can't We Be Friends?

Speaker 412:24

I thought I'd found the man of my dreams Now it seems this is how the story ends.

Speaker 412:34

He's going to turn me down and say can't we be friends?

Speaker 412:43

What a fool Now see this is the end I let her turn me down Say can't we be friends?

Presenter12:53

Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald with the Oscar Peterson trio with Buddy Rich and Can't We Be Friends? So your career, Terry, really began dawn of the sixties, absolutely where it was at. You you must have been one of the first people to photograph the Beatles, were you?

Terry O'Neill13:08

Yeah, I was actually. And then once I'd done that, which took three months to publish, believe it or not.

Presenter13:14

Why did it take so long?

Terry O'Neill13:14

Why did it take so long?

Terry O'Neill13:18

And there were all these kids going mad all over them. I mean to have a pop picture in the paper at that time was extraordinary.

Terry O'Neill13:25

Like shock people.

Presenter13:26

Mm.

Terry O'Neill13:27

Anyway, it published and they had such a response that they said go out and find the next ones. Well, being an ex-musician at this time, I realized I'd been following the Rolling Stones who were playing down in Richmond, in a hotel in Richmond. So I went and photographed them and then they were horrified how they looked. I mean they they were horrified at the Beatles, let alone the Stones. So they said you got to get someone else to make this Beauty and the Beasts. So they were forming the Dave Clark Five. And they just ran them like that and then that just started the whole sixties thing off. I mean every paper found that they put on circulation, that's the secret.

Presenter13:59

And we

Presenter14:02

And the pictures were so different, weren't they? Because, again, they come out of the studio, what you really wanted, and one remembers it very much with the videos.

Terry O'Neill14:04

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill14:06

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill14:08

Pretty hard.

Presenter14:09

Yeah, na but natural. With a lot of personality.

Terry O'Neill14:12

Yeah.

Presenter14:12

Just making people smile at the pictures, really. It's interesting that that that I mean, in a sense you helped create that, didn't you?

Terry O'Neill14:19

Well, yes, subconsciously. I mean, I just did what I thought was right. But I'd always thought it was going to end by the same token. I thought, well, I'll if I get through to when I'm twenty five here, I'm going to be lucky.

Presenter14:29

Because you were living life.

Terry O'Neill14:30

Yeah, well we used to sit in this club at the Beatles and Stones and discuss what jobs we're gonna have to do.

Terry O'Neill14:36

But once you grew up.

Presenter14:36

Uh

Speaker 114:36

Uh

Presenter14:36

Uh

Speaker 114:36

But once you grew up.

Terry O'Neill14:38

Yes, no, it's absolutely true. It's once we grew up what we're going to do.'Cause everything was on a plate. The East End took over from the West End, the Liverpool came down to London. It was incredible.

Presenter14:49

And of course it it was exactly the right time for you again because you didn't have to speak received pronunciation anymore. I mean if you had an accent, be it Liverpudlin or Cockney, you you were in, weren't you?

Terry O'Neill14:59

Yes, it was all a very

Terry O'Neill15:01

tough world at the time, so automatically you didn't think much of yourself, so you could speak for yourself for the first time and we certainly did.

Presenter15:10

Let's have record number four.

Terry O'Neill15:12

Ah, that's a great singer who's the new hot singer in jazz and a great pianist called Diana Kroll singing Baby Baby all the time.

Presenter15:20

And you could see yourself on your desert island.

Terry O'Neill15:22

Yes, with his voice I could. I mean, I wouldn't mind who's the luxury.

Presenter15:26

Pushed in.

Speaker 415:26

I'm far away and now I'm wishing

Speaker 415:31

I could hear him call me baby

Speaker 415:37

Hey

Presenter15:54

Baby, Baby, All the Time, sung and played by Diana Craw. One of your best early photographs is surely the one of Laurence Olivier in the Brahron corset. It's great, I got it here, look silk stockings and suspenders. It's hilarious. Nineteen sixty two, what was he doing?

Terry O'Neill16:04

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill16:06

Sense

Terry O'Neill16:10

Well, he was doing a charity show called A Night of One Hundred Stars.

Terry O'Neill16:14

I mean he's actually became a woman, he was a great actor.

Presenter16:17

Totally serious. His face is completely straight.

Terry O'Neill16:18

It's completely strict. I mean, his manner is, and I took them in the next day, and they ran.

Terry O'Neill16:23

I think they ran about eight pages of pictures. I mean, I became an instant hero.

Presenter16:27

Yeah.

Presenter16:28

There's another great one, um an early one again of Richard Burton also looking rather female sitting in the bath, great hairy chest, you know, and and a flowered shower cap on his head.

Terry O'Neill16:34

You know, and then

Terry O'Neill16:37

Yes, that was a film called The Hairdresser.

Presenter16:39

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill16:39

Where he was that him and Rex Harrison were two gay hairdressers.

Presenter16:44

What about these others? Now, there's some very poignant pictures because of what subsequently happened, of Sharon Tate, the pregnant Sharon Tate that you took over in the States. Tell me about those.

Terry O'Neill16:53

There is

Terry O'Neill16:54

Well, that was three days before she died, funnily enough. That was on the Tuesday. She went to America on the Wednesday.

Terry O'Neill17:00

And I was going there myself Thursday and she rang me up at this house I was renting. So I'm having this party tomorrow and there's somebody I didn't want to see who actually are that this guy didn't go either. But, um

Terry O'Neill17:15

I got a call about twelve or one o'clock on the Sunday morning from a paper saying that that that she'd been murdered. She was such a lovely girl. I mean, it's very likely I would have just gone down there, but I'd said no and and I thought about going, but I would have been a goner for sure.

Presenter17:31

'Cause everybody at the party was killed.

Terry O'Neill17:32

Yeah, it's slaughter, absolutely slaughter.

Presenter17:35

You toured with all sorts of p I mean, Elvis Bresley we haven't mentioned. You toured with him, didn't you, Hamperdink, Tom Jones, and so on. But the man you liked working with best, apparently, and there's some great pictures of him, was Frank Sinatra. Why him?

Terry O'Neill17:47

Yes.

Terry O'Neill17:49

Well

Terry O'Neill17:50

He was a a man of two parts really.

Terry O'Neill17:53

He he walked into a room, he lit up a room without a doubt being Kennedy.

Presenter17:56

But people were connected.

Terry O'Neill17:58

Well, i it depends what you believe.

Terry O'Neill18:01

actually. I mean he was he knew always what he wanted to do, and he taught me.

Terry O'Neill18:05

that you've got to do your best all the time. I mean, people thought he just used to walk on that stage but when, say in Vegas he'd be singing, he'd be out gauging that audience, looking through the curtains, no one would ever know. I mean, he's an extraordinary man.

Terry O'Neill18:22

Late at night he used to go a bit off the wall, but that was their way of life.

Presenter18:26

But you you were with him uh around and worked with him over a period of what, ten years or so, didn't you?

Terry O'Neill18:30

Ten years ago.

Presenter18:32

But how did you I mean, you m there must have been a code of behaviour for you alongside the great man, as it were. What was it?

Terry O'Neill18:38

Is it club?

Terry O'Neill18:40

Uh fortunately I was introduced to him by Ava Gardner, who I knew because she lived here, and she wrote I don't know what she wrote in this letter.

Terry O'Neill18:48

And I remember walking on the set and giving him the letter, and he reads the letter, he says, Right, you're with me. And then I was. Part of the rap. Yeah, and he had that. I mean, he never.

Presenter18:56

Part of the ramp.

Terry O'Neill18:59

made me feel a photographer, which was a great thing.

Terry O'Neill19:02

Just didn't see you, just acted like you weren't there, which is the best thing you could ever have happened to you f from doing what I was doing.

Presenter19:11

Epo number five.

Terry O'Neill19:12

If I was on a desert island I'd need a record to remind me of Lorraine, who I'm going to marry, who I've been together with a long time and it's been a long time coming, but anyway the song is You Brought a New Kind of Love to Me sung by Frank Sinatra.

Speaker 419:26

If the nightingales could sing like you

Speaker 419:31

Sing much sweeter than they do Cause you brought a new kind of love to me

Speaker 419:42

And if the Sandman brought me dreams of you, I'd wanna sleep my whole life through, You brought a new kind of love.

Speaker 419:54

To me

Presenter19:55

You brought a new kind of love to me, sung by Frank Sinata. So you got to America, Terry, you fulfilled your dreams.

Presenter20:03

And you married a movie star, Faye Dunaway. You kind of crossed the line, really, didn't you? Is that how you found that?

Terry O'Neill20:04

Okay.

Terry O'Neill20:08

Yeah, I think it's a very good idea.

Terry O'Neill20:11

She was a extraordinary woman, so she was a great actress, but she wasn't like a film person. And we fell in love and then I got married and then she went to settle down and have children.

Terry O'Neill20:25

And then she couldn't have any, so we adopted one in the end.

Presenter20:29

Hm. He's what, about twenty now I think, isn't he, Liam?

Terry O'Neill20:31

Yeah.

Presenter20:33

Um

Presenter20:34

But I wonder I mean, as we know in the end it it it it didn't work, but

Presenter20:39

Was that w do you think you were naïve in thinking that you could

Presenter20:44

You could be married to a Hollywood star. I mean, ultimately, was it not possible?

Terry O'Neill20:48

Well, that wasn't the thing that broke it up. I mean, I didn't I never looked at people as stars anyway. She was just a another girl to me.

Terry O'Neill20:57

You you often feel superior to.

Terry O'Neill21:01

somebody like that, because you see how vulnerable they are.

Presenter21:04

And why did you feel sorry for Faye?

Terry O'Neill21:08

Because I felt she was not getting the right money, she was a really good actress and her heart was in the right place. But unfortunately, as happens with a major star'cause she just won an Oscar, you get dragged more and more into their world.

Presenter21:24

You couldn't hack the'cause you were making films.

Terry O'Neill21:26

I could hack it, but I didn't want it.

Presenter21:28

Because that's what you did in effect, wasn't it? You gave up what you did, which was being a photographer. I know people had asked you before to go into photographs, but finally. You're making films with Faye Dunaway. In a way, perhaps you've subjugated yourself to her in creating a film.

Terry O'Neill21:38

Yes.

Terry O'Neill21:41

Yes, well I did do that. That's that but it wasn't a problem to me. I mean I d I just didn't know where I was ever going to come out. And I just thought if I get these films out the way I can get on with my own life.

Presenter21:54

But the films what it was Mummy Dearest, wasn't it? Which was

Terry O'Neill21:56

Yeah, that's what I've ended up producing. Joan Crawford's life story, or the fact that she's supposed to beat her daughter. And.

Presenter22:00

Mm.

Terry O'Neill22:04

That was the biggest nightmare I ever had. I mean, the first day on the beach, Fade loses a hundred thousand pound necklace let alone not coming out the chute till eleven o'clock because he was frightened of becoming Joan Crawford because she used to become the part.

Terry O'Neill22:21

I mean, you you had to see the film. She looked like Joan Crawford. It doesn't seem like Faye Dunaway could become Joan Crawford, but she had.

Terry O'Neill22:30

In the makeup was incredible, really. She's an incredible actress. But I mean, I d I didn't really want to do the films.

Terry O'Neill22:39

and she's very driven type of person and she wanted to do them more and we just grew apart.

Presenter22:46

It was a pretty miserable time. I mean, you nearly fell apart, didn't you?

Terry O'Neill22:48

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill22:49

Well, I did actually, yeah. I I

Terry O'Neill22:52

hyperventilated one day, which is the most awful thing. And they got a doctor over. Apparently f if I'd been f five years older I would have been dead and uh that's when I knew that I had to push ahead with the divorce.

Presenter23:07

But it's pure stress. You just got yourself into a total state. So in the end, you got out.

Terry O'Neill23:09

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill23:10

Yeah

Presenter23:12

You came back.

Terry O'Neill23:12

Yeah.

Presenter23:13

I know you tried briefly back here, but

Terry O'Neill23:14

Be brief.

Presenter23:16

Ultimately, bottom line is, you were forty seven years old.

Presenter23:20

Back in London.

Presenter23:21

Hadn't taken a photograph for five years,'cause she'd been making films.

Terry O'Neill23:24

Run

Presenter23:24

And you were broom.

Terry O'Neill23:25

Yeah.

Presenter23:26

More than break.

Presenter23:28

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill23:29

Big debt, huh? Yeah, eighty thousand pounds in debt. I don't know how it got out of that, but I just did.

Terry O'Neill23:34

I went to the Sunday Ties supplement and

Terry O'Neill23:38

Michael Round who's a great archer gave me a job, and then I'd never look back.

Terry O'Neill23:43

I worked night and day for two or three years.

Presenter23:47

But they don't

Terry O'Neill23:47

And I c I got back just through sheer volume of getting published all the time.

Presenter23:53

But they'd have been mad not to use it,'cause here was this man who, uh, as as we've heard, uh, you know, a contact's book so full. I mean, you could

Terry O'Neill24:00

Yeah, but people forget.

Terry O'Neill24:02

No matter how good you are.

Presenter24:04

Next piece of music, number six.

Terry O'Neill24:06

Well, when I was working with Frank Sinatra I met Dean Martin and and the clan and Dean Martin always struck me as one of the really great singers. He was sort of lazy'cause a lot of the tracks the band went in the day and he just went at eight o'clock till ten and knocked out an album. But this album he actually sang on and it's Baby Won't You Please Come Home.

Speaker 424:27

Baby, won't you please come home?

Speaker 424:35

Cause your daddy's all

Speaker 424:38

Long

Speaker 424:43

I have tried in vain

Speaker 424:49

Never no more.

Speaker 424:52

To call your name

Presenter24:56

Dean Martin and baby, won't you please come home? It is interesting, and it's been the theme running through this conversation, Terry, that that someone as shy as you should have ended up doing what you did. Ha have you worked out a theory for that at all? I mean, again, I know you've said before now that

Presenter25:14

As a drummer, you know, you sat at the back.

Terry O'Neill25:16

Yeah, same thing.

Terry O'Neill25:18

It's the camera I used to hide behind the camera. I still actually do, actually.

Presenter25:18

It's the camera.

Terry O'Neill25:22

I may not seem shy, but I'm really shy.

Presenter25:25

But it's other people you're n I think that's what it is, isn't it? It means that you're no competition for those people. You're happy for others to take highlight.

Terry O'Neill25:31

Oh yeah.

Presenter25:32

That's what it all is.

Terry O'Neill25:32

Absolutely. Actually, yeah, that's true. That's like part of the band. I love being part of something, not the main one.

Presenter25:38

But as you've said before, you also do discover that everybody in many ways feels the same. It's just a matter of driving yourself up the front if that's what you feel you have to do. I think you've ended up introducing great stars to each other because they've been stuck up corners.

Terry O'Neill25:52

I remember I had a shot to do once for uh it was like Paramount Studios. It's the the hundredth year of Paramount Studios and they got a hundred of their top stars and they had like Robert De Niro, Liz Taylor, you name it.

Terry O'Neill26:06

And

Terry O'Neill26:07

Everyone actually wanted to meet Elizabeth Taylor. Anyway, she comes into this chant, you know how big these film studios are, and she's by the door. So I thought, Christ, no one's going near her. So

Terry O'Neill26:18

I knew her quite well. I said, Can I assist you in the room? She said, I'm so frightened, Terry.

Terry O'Neill26:24

And I thought, I said, but all these people are here to meet you. She said, I've never seen so many.

Terry O'Neill26:29

stars in one room. I mean, they're all star struck themselves. So she said, Could you introduce me to Robert De Niro? So I didn't know Robert De Nio I mean you Harrison Ford, but so I took him over and it it was I mean, it was like seeing two children to stumbling talk with each other.

Terry O'Neill26:46

It's amazing, really.

Presenter26:48

You said Sinatra was was your favorite subject overall, but what about women and beauty? Because again, it's something you're very much known for, is is is really capturing women very

Terry O'Neill26:59

We don't get involved with them, is the thing. That is the whole key.

Presenter27:02

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill27:03

I only did once, I didn't break any other rules.

Presenter27:07

But how would you define beauty like that and and who is the most beautiful woman you've seen through that piece of glass of yours?

Terry O'Neill27:15

Well, in o all honesty, it's Ava Gardner in the prime. She was definitely the best looking woman.

Terry O'Neill27:21

Plus you had to realize she wi she was like a hillbilly.

Terry O'Neill27:25

She wasn't that sophisticated. I mean, every time I was with her, she'd we we'd end up walking along the street, she'd have had no shoes on.

Terry O'Neill27:33

But

Terry O'Neill27:34

There's not many.

Terry O'Neill27:35

I mean, Grace Curley was interesting looking woman, but I mean, I you see all the faults uh when you take photographs'cause you're hiding them.

Terry O'Neill27:43

And

Terry O'Neill27:44

covering up all the problems. So, yeah.

Presenter27:47

But you help them do that. I mean, you you you keep sending for the makeup artists and say, Get rid of that little bump and that little shadow.

Terry O'Neill27:49

Yeah, it's

Terry O'Neill27:53

That little bump and that little switch.

Presenter27:58

Okay, record number seven.

Terry O'Neill28:01

This is by Eric Clapton, who's a friend but also a great musician who's singing playing better than ever. A blue's called Mortid Mill.

Speaker 428:11

Baby, fix me one more drink.

Speaker 428:15

Hug your daddy warm

Speaker 428:23

Keep on stirring my moulded milk, mamma.

Speaker 428:27

Until I change my

Presenter28:38

Herry Clapton and malted milk. I don't really see you on a desert island, Terry. I mean, you're such an urban animal, aren't you?

Terry O'Neill28:45

Well, funny enough

Terry O'Neill28:47

I'm one of the few blokes who c can exist on my own.

Terry O'Neill28:50

I've got a couple of mates. There's Doug Haywood. He's like that. But we're uh single men, both great cooks. I mean, I do need people, but I can live quite well on my own, believe it or not.

Presenter29:00

And can we have a lot of practice, yeah?

Presenter29:04

How um but could you live without

Presenter29:06

The glamorous world. I mean, you touch into it every now and then, don't you? You you've enjoyed all of that, being man about.

Terry O'Neill29:12

Well, I do love knowing the musicians now. The musicians are the ones to me who I really like.

Presenter29:17

So it's back to the music. It's not the celebrity. You you've had enough of all of that, have you?

Terry O'Neill29:19

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill29:21

Everyone's celebrity mad at the moment. It's obsessive that just the the magazines

Terry O'Neill29:27

And they're not good pictures, and they're not

Terry O'Neill29:30

They're gonna last these celebrities. I mean it's shame, but they're just not.

Presenter29:32

What's it?

Presenter29:33

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill29:36

Why people eat them up so quickly?

Terry O'Neill29:38

David Beckham, for instance, should not do a thing, they should just play his football, for now.

Presenter29:44

But but you can understand, can't you? The offers keep coming in if you're if you're Bex and Posh, you know, the offers keep coming in and you're going to take it while it's there, aren't you?

Terry O'Neill29:49

Yeah, yeah.

Terry O'Neill29:50

Are you going to take

Terry O'Neill29:52

Well, no, but he's he's going to be there for another ten years, for sure.

Terry O'Neill29:56

It hasn't happened in America as like it has in this country.

Presenter29:59

We are celebrity mad, aren't we?

Terry O'Neill30:01

Yes, and it's all kids. They just want to be famous. We don't get famous.

Terry O'Neill30:06

You have to work to get your fame.

Presenter30:08

Perhaps you should set up as the antidote to Max Clifford.

Terry O'Neill30:11

Right a parson there.

Presenter30:15

So i if you escape from this desert island, let's just put you back there for a minute, is there another dream? I mean, you said you could cope there, but would you sit there dreaming about something else, somewhere to escape to? What do you have in mind for your dotage?

Terry O'Neill30:29

Well, actually I'd spend a lot of time thinking about this, either going to France or Italy and England and spending my time amongst the three.

Presenter30:36

With or without a camera.

Terry O'Neill30:38

Without

Presenter30:40

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill30:40

No, it's a date.

Presenter30:40

No hesitation.

Terry O'Neill30:45

And I like to go to the older parts of France and Italy and all that and do some really interesting work.

Presenter30:51

In black and white.

Terry O'Neill30:52

Yes, in black and white.

Presenter30:53

Of course.

Presenter30:55

Last record.

Terry O'Neill30:56

Well this is the one and only Louis Armstrong singing Up a Lazy River. It's sort of me, actually.

Speaker 431:04

It's a penisy people putting torches by the phone.

Speaker 431:11

Ba ba ba ditter, but do says the time.

Speaker 431:16

Pop pop a dootie dooty, pump, say see.

Speaker 431:20

Banu Betty Bobodu Dido Zit, Banu Badi Bobodo Didzet, Yes Ha ha ha, Man my river is hidden.

Presenter31:34

Louis Armstrong singing Up a Lazy River with Cy Oliver's Orchestra, and Billy Kyle on piano, you tell me, Terry. Now, if you could only take one of those eight records, which one would you take?

Terry O'Neill31:45

I think baby baby all the time.

Terry O'Neill31:47

By Dana Crum

Presenter31:48

Nice company. Female company.

Terry O'Neill31:50

Yeah.

Presenter31:51

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill31:51

Yeah, I think I'd need that.

Presenter31:54

What about your book? You've got you've got the Bible and you've got the complete works of Shakespeare.

Presenter31:58

So you could go back to studying for the priesthood if you wanted to.

Terry O'Neill31:58

Okay.

Terry O'Neill32:01

No, no, I won't do that. That's over and done with. I I take a Dickens book, maybe Tale of Two Cities or Great Expectations.

Terry O'Neill32:09

I mean, I liked it if I could take the set of of

Presenter32:11

No it does.

Terry O'Neill32:11

No, you can't. No, okay, right.

Presenter32:13

One, name me right

Terry O'Neill32:14

Great expectations.

Presenter32:15

Okay. And your luxury.

Terry O'Neill32:17

It can't take a person, can it?

Presenter32:19

Yeah.

Terry O'Neill32:20

Well, I'd take a radio or a drum kit, but probably in all practicality a radio.

Terry O'Neill32:26

You know, wind up radio.

Presenter32:28

Terry O'Neill, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Terry O'Neill32:32

Thank you.

Speaker 132:40

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Islandists archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.