Norman Painting

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 10:08

The programme was originally broadcast in the year two thousand, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My Costaway today is an actor. This week he celebrates his 50th anniversary as one of the stars of radio's most famous drama serial. It wasn't the career he had in mind for himself. The son of a railway signalman, he went to Oxford where he acted with Shirley Williams and Kenneth Tynan. He then became an assistant producer at the BBC and was asked to perform in a new experimental programme designed to encourage people back into farming after the war.

Presenter0:57

The experiment became a national institution, a mainstay of the light programme, the home service, and finally Radio 4. Of the character he plays, he says, I put him on when I go into the studio and hang him on the hook when I leave. I've never really got that close to him. Unlike us fans of the Archers, he is of course Phil Archer, known in real life, if real life exists outside Ambridge, as Norman Painting. Norman, you've called yourself a reluctant archer in the past. Can you really be so ambivalent about somebody you've spent fifty years with?

Norman Painting1:30

That's how I started off, in fact. I resigned after three months. I didn't think this was going to be my life at all. But

Presenter1:35

You never dreamt that it would last for fifty years.

Norman Painting1:37

When I uh I had this argument with Godfrey Baisley, and uh finished him calling after me, You silly young fool, you've got a job here for ten years if you want it and I remember saying, That man lives in a fantasy world.

Presenter1:51

He was the original producer of the music.

Norman Painting1:52

He invented the originator, the creator was the word he liked.

Presenter1:56

P.S.

Norman Painting1:56

Creator and God go together. Why didn't you want to go on with it then in the beginning? Well, I wanted to be a serious writer. I wanted to see my name in lights in the West End. I'd started by wanting to be one of those Oxford or Cambridge Dons who have a very comfortable life and occasionally pop up to town and direct Olivia or Gielgud, then go back again. Of course, that life's gone anyway. And then.

Norman Painting2:20

The academic world seemed to lose its charms, and I was headhunted, in fact, at Oxford by

Norman Painting2:28

Dennis Morris, who was later to become controller of the light programme and very much behind the archers.

Norman Painting2:34

and I was offered several short contracts. Then they offered me a job on the staff.

Presenter2:39

So you were doing a bit of everything, really. You were producing, you were writing, you were and then a little bit of acting.

Norman Painting2:41

Yeah.

Norman Painting2:42

I changed.

Norman Painting2:45

Yes, I'm technically a writer and broadcaster. I mean, I pay my tax as a writer, and for many years.

Norman Painting2:52

Phil Archer was incidental earnings. But tell me, do you like him? Do you like Phil Archer?

Norman Painting2:58

I suppose I must do. I yes, I must like him, because if he's asked to do things that I don't think he would do, I

Norman Painting3:06

I I'm upset, you know, I get a bit hurt and think, you know.

Presenter3:10

And do they listen to you when when you say Phil wouldn't do that? After all, you know him better than anybody else.

Norman Painting3:15

Well, that's true. Um well these things are all debatable, aren't they?

Norman Painting3:19

By the time the script reaches us, on the floor, as it were, it has been so carefully worked over, and so many points have been discussed, I feel that to say, Is that really so? is just being meddlesome. Mind not to reason why, I now get on and do it, and try and make it convincing.

Presenter3:35

You always succeed, I have to say. Tell me about your first record.

Norman Painting3:36

Saturday.

Norman Painting3:39

Well, it's Benjamin Britton, and one of the thrills about Britton is that very early in my life I realized this was a young, new, English major composer, so

Norman Painting3:49

This particular piece is also written by somebody I was very interested in, W. H. Auden.

Norman Painting3:55

And so it's a it's a happy marriage, but it's a poem I was never very taken with.

Norman Painting4:00

But suddenly Ben Britton's setting of it, I think, is absolutely magical.

Presenter4:11

Yeah.

Speaker 14:14

And to touch the window sky.

Norman Painting4:39

Fifth time, whether we get sheriff in a horse of error.

Norman Painting4:48

I'd pay for riding lessons, huh? AT is gone all the way.

Presenter4:55

Benjamin Britton's A Shepherd's Carol, words, of course, by WH Orden, sung by the choir of Christchurch Cathedral, Oxford. You do, of course, at Norman Painting, have music in common with Phil Archer, don't you?

Norman Painting5:06

That's true. More often than not when you hear Phil playing the piano, or indeed the the village church organ, that is in fact me.

Presenter5:16

Of course the truth about this fiftieth anniversary, I think I'm right in saying, is that you've already celebrated yours, haven't you?

Norman Painting5:23

Well, yes. There was a trial run in may, nineteen fifty. I'd been asked by Godfrey Baisley, as I'd got an academic background, would I collate the agricultural facts? I hadn't got a job. I said yes. He said, You've written some radio, haven't you? If this programme gets on, will you write it? I said, Yes.

Norman Painting5:38

The only thing they didn't ask me to do was to be Philip Archer. What happened was I opened the post one day and there was a contract inviting me to be in this new programme called The Archers for a trial run in may nineteen fifty.

Presenter5:49

For it was the archers of Wimberton Farm, not Limbersham Farm

Norman Painting5:51

I'm glad they altered it to Ambridge.

Presenter5:56

And and the tune was the same, though, Dumpty Dumpty, Dumpty, Dumpty. Yes, it was.

Norman Painting5:59

And was.

Presenter6:00

Barwegreen.

Norman Painting6:01

That's right.

Presenter6:01

Uh but it uh it ran for how long then in that track?

Norman Painting6:04

Just for one week. And then it was his job to try to sell it to the B B C. And the official answer, first of all, was No, we don't want another family programme unless there's a war. But for whatever reason they decided to give it a try. The two scriptwriters, Edward J. Mason and Geoffrey Webb, were also writing Dick Barton.

Norman Painting6:22

And Dick Barton was exciting but self-destructive, because he always got out of the most impossible situations.

Presenter6:29

Dick Barton's special agent, that was very popular.

Norman Painting6:30

That was very popular. Enormously so. But they were feeling that this was getting to be an impossible thing. They couldn't think of any more things for him to get out of. And so when we went on into the light programme, it was in the most awful time in the morning.

Norman Painting6:43

Within three months.

Norman Painting6:45

Nick Barton was sent on his way, and we took his place.

Presenter6:48

Which was prime time, right? Prime time. This was what, quarter to seven in the evening, I think.

Norman Painting6:49

Prime time

Norman Painting6:52

That's right.

Presenter6:52

But who who made that leap of imagination? Because that's what it seems to be, that the Ministry of Agriculture says to the BBC, as I said in the introduction, can you help us get people back on the land after the war? Then somebody says, let's make it a fictional everyday story of country folk.

Norman Painting6:52

And we stayed there.

Norman Painting7:04

Yeah.

Norman Painting7:09

Well, I hadn't seen it quite as positively as that, actually, getting people back on the land. It was the general fact that the BBC was doing excellent farming programmes, but there weren't very many farmers listening to them. And there was a farming advisory council meeting held, and a Lincolnshire farmer got up and said, what we want is a farming dick barton. And everybody laughed. And when I later came to write the history of the programme, I dedicated it to the man who didn't laugh, which was Godbrey Posley. And he scribbled on a piece of paper the family names and said, oh no, that couldn't possibly work. We couldn't have a family serial, and threw it in the paper basket. His secretary rescued it. It's now part of the archive, this crumpled sheet, when he's got Dan, Doris, Jack, Phil, Christine, Water Gabriel, Simon the Farmhand. And that was more or less it to start with.

Presenter7:56

But within a few weeks, then, of this going on, you had millions of business.

Norman Painting7:59

Straight up. Yes. From from nought to goodness knows what in a in a standing star.

Presenter8:04

And they believed it and they sent the new babies booties.

Norman Painting8:07

That's right.

Presenter8:08

And they send you homemade cakes.

Norman Painting8:09

Indeed, which were sometimes a little difficult. We didn't know whether perhaps we ought to eat them, in case it was a not a well-wisher.

Presenter8:15

Tell me Rec about record number two.

Norman Painting8:18

We're sitting in Broadcasting House, and only a few hundred yards away was Queen's Hall, where Henry Wood started the prom concerts.

Norman Painting8:28

At the time I didn't think it was anything extraordinary, but the school orchestra came to take part in the school orchestra competition, and there were two set pieces.

Norman Painting8:37

And I played the piano.

Norman Painting8:40

You may ask when you hear what the piece was, it was the minuet

Norman Painting8:43

From Haydn's Surprise Symphony. Well, what was piano doing in that? Apparently the specification for a school orchestra to enter, they had to have so many violins, so many woodwinds, and so on.

Norman Painting8:54

and piano or harp.

Norman Painting8:57

And so there was a piano part written in.

Presenter9:50

The beginning of the third movement of Haydn's Surprise Symphony played by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir Thomas Beecham and Memories for my castaway of playing in the school orchestra.

Norman Painting10:00

You didn't play it quite as well as that, I mean.

Presenter10:01

Please.

Presenter10:03

So you were the son of a railway signalman in Leamington Spa who dreamed of going to Oxford. This was twenties, thirties.

Norman Painting10:06

That's right.

Presenter10:11

That would have been a huge ambition both academically and financially for such a boy.

Norman Painting10:15

Well, yes, and it's obviously impossible financially. My father was one of seven children, and his his father and several brothers were railway people. My mother was one of twelve, and her father was a coal miner. And and I know my sister left school early, and so when my time came, my father said, Well, no, he'll have to leave school early as well, and I left at at fifteen.

Presenter10:38

What did you do?

Norman Painting10:39

I went to work in the local public library. But in those wartime years you tended to meet people unofficially, so fire watching one day, I said to the head, What's my chance of getting to university? He said, I'll find out when you're going to be called up, and I'll see if I can get a grant for you. And so

Norman Painting10:57

He said you'll be called up in the third week in October. You must enroll as an undergraduate. Then at the end of the war

Norman Painting11:04

They will say your education was interrupted, and I've got you forty pounds. So with my life savings of seventeen pounds and the forty pounds from I enrolled.

Norman Painting11:13

And Birmingham University.

Presenter11:14

A Birmingham

Norman Painting11:16

And within three weeks I was called to a selection board. Have you got a credit in maths? Yes, right. Royal artillery next.

Norman Painting11:24

went to a medical and failed it.

Norman Painting11:27

So there I was with egg on face, enrolled for a course which I couldn't possibly afford, extending for four years.

Presenter11:33

So how did you afford it?

Norman Painting11:34

Go to the end. I did it.

Norman Painting11:36

I did something which is very common now, but was unheard of then, which was I worked my way through college. Also, because of the war, there was a thing called fire watching. If you signed on before seven o'clock, you got four and sixpence, and your supper, and a bed. So I didn't need any digs, and I slept in the Air Aid Warden's post. So that was how it was done.

Presenter11:58

And you read English, and you got a first.

Norman Painting12:00

Yes, to everybody's surprise, including mine.

Norman Painting12:03

and a research scholarship which took me to Christchurch, Oxford.

Presenter12:06

But in both of these institutions you did amateur dramatics at both Bernie and Manners, didn't you?

Norman Painting12:11

Oh yes, a great deal.

Norman Painting12:13

And after I'd come down, I was called back again to a thing called the Oxford University Players, who took two plays to America.

Norman Painting12:22

King Lear was one. Sir Peter Parker played Lear.

Presenter12:26

Who became chairman of British Rails?

Norman Painting12:27

Indeed, yeah. And Shirley Williams was his Cordelia. And John Schlesinger, uh it was I w I wonder what happened to me.

Presenter12:36

I think we know. Tell me about your next record.

Norman Painting12:39

Well, that Oxford University players tour in 19

Norman Painting12:44

50. Took us to America.

Norman Painting12:46

And we eventually play New York.

Norman Painting12:49

At least we played very, very off Broadway. But it meant whilst we were there for two or three nights, one saw all the Broadway theatre we could. I saw a couple of minotti operas and

Norman Painting13:00

The original production of Coalporter's Kiss Me Kate.

Norman Painting13:03

And the audience in New York, when this um

Norman Painting13:07

the song we're going to hear now, whereas the life that late I led they they they got every single line, and I s I couldn't believe that the whole theatre it must have been wonderful to play to, because they got every single point.

Speaker 113:20

Where is the fine useful fine? Where is it born? Carmen the wine.

Speaker 113:27

Marriage game is quite all

Norman Painting13:29

Ain't alright, yes during the day it's easy to play, but over the board at night, so I repeat, what first I serve?

Speaker 113:38

When is the life that we

Speaker 113:44

Where is Red?

Presenter13:48

Sir Thomas Allen singing Where is the Life That Late I Led? from Coalporter's Kiss Me Kate with the National Symphony Orchestra conducted by John Owen Edwards. Was the Archers ever performed live, Norman, like early television drama, or was it always recorded?

Norman Painting14:02

We did one live half hour, which was terrifying. On Boxing Day.

Norman Painting14:08

In her very first year.

Norman Painting14:10

And it was to be one of these sing songs with Dan and Doris singing round the piano and Phil playing.

Norman Painting14:15

And the studio, then, wasn't very big, so the piano had to be at one end, and the talk microphone at the other, so Dan would say,'Let's sing down the Vale, shall we, Doris?' That's right, Phil, yes, let's. All right, Phil, yes. Hang on a minute. Sh and I went to the far end of the studio, had to accompany them.

Norman Painting14:32

And then when it was over, come back again, and this was live. Well, dream of doing it now. But usually the programme itself was recorded on on big fifteen minute discs. But it was done as live. If you made a mistake, well, heaven help you, because there was no easy editing as there is now.

Presenter14:50

So you have to go back to the beginning again?

Norman Painting14:51

Well, you plowed on usually, but if it was obviously a a fluff.

Norman Painting14:56

Then we had to do the whole thing again, and on one famous occasion for some reason there was a gremlin, and and nobody can get it right. So the director said, Right, we'll break early for lunch and come back, and we've got to get it right immediately afterwards. And one of the actors had had a liquid lunch.

Norman Painting15:11

And look at

Presenter15:11

You're not going to tell us which actor.

Norman Painting15:13

No long dead possible.

Norman Painting15:15

and we thought this is going to be a disaster and he sailed through word perfect and we were so relieved that in the in the last scene

Norman Painting15:23

Doris Archer heard herself saying, Dan, you ought to take those shoes of yours to the cleaners, because when you kneel down in church at Phil's wedding, people will see there's a hole in them.

Norman Painting15:33

Well, I don't think anybody takes their shoes to be clean. Do the whole thing all over again?

Presenter15:38

Because the whole point about it was you again, it it it was very original, wasn't it? You had to be overheard, you weren't actors actoring.

Norman Painting15:47

Absolutely right.

Presenter15:48

You are ordinary people chatting to each other.

Norman Painting15:50

It was very much that, that you didn't you didn't address the public, you spoke to each other. But the thing that made our one of the things that made our name was putting in topical bits. And the Control of Light programme had been at a meeting in which he decided there should be no reference to the budget until the nine o'clock news. And feeling he'd done a good day's work, he got into his car, was driving home, put on the archers, and there we were discussing the budget. We have this big fifteen-minute disc. How on earth do you put one minute, twenty seconds of topical information into it?

Norman Painting16:21

Which means you get the actors in the studio, you get a scriptwriter listening to what's coming down on the tape, can you believe it was in those days from

Norman Painting16:29

The House of Commons.

Norman Painting16:32

And he would then concoct a script.

Norman Painting16:34

to a a a measured piece of the script.

Norman Painting16:38

and we would be given that sand in the studio.

Norman Painting16:41

And at a quarter to seven a needle went down at the beginning of one of these big black discs, and when it got to a certain point it was lifted and a light came on in the studio upstairs, and we did our topical bit.

Norman Painting16:52

And when we'd finished, the poor engineer down below hoped that when he dropped the needle back on again it would be at the end of the scene.

Presenter16:59

So you fitted the slot exactly.

Norman Painting17:00

Fitted us lot in and that was very hairy. A live insert. A live insert. On one occasion I remember the original thing was what? I don't think you're talking sense, Dad, or something of that sort.

Norman Painting17:14

And I was told, Wait until you hear yourself say what and then read from the script. So it was What? Oh, you know, Dad, I think the budget's got to you, or something like that. Oh, what did you think of the budget? And then we did various topical things like the death of Stalin, death of Queen Mary, death of George the Sixth, and so on.

Presenter17:33

But that's why it's always worked. That's why it's always been so real to people, because you have been reacting to life as it is today.

Norman Painting17:39

Is that our brief, he said.

Presenter17:41

Yeah.

Norman Painting17:41

Yeah.

Presenter17:41

And the other great thing, of course, is that the sounds are always the same. And you've got some very sharp eared listeners, I know. You've got to ring the right bell at Brookfield, or go down the cellar steps in the right way in the the bull, haven't you?

Norman Painting17:47

Yeah.

Norman Painting17:54

Be driving the right car.

Presenter17:54

Yeah.

Presenter17:55

Oh

Norman Painting17:55

Yeah.

Presenter17:55

Yeah.

Presenter17:57

But but do you have a row of doors? Do you have a set of stairs?

Norman Painting18:01

There there is a set of stairs, there is a practical sink, we have got an ager, we have got a fridge and a cooker.

Presenter18:07

And a row of bells.

Norman Painting18:09

Or pulleys or whatever they are. They tend more and more now to be on

Norman Painting18:13

On tape.

Norman Painting18:15

Because with digitalization

Norman Painting18:18

We can do that just as the awful children are on tape, you see. In the old days it was difficult to write for children because you tended to get a Are you all right? sss yes, mummy you'll get with the as as you've got the hiss of the of the record. So one didn't do very much in the way of putting children. But now

Presenter18:35

Oh.

Norman Painting18:36

You can get a lifelike effect of uh because they're on tape and there's no

Presenter18:40

So you get Ruth's children playing in the background while you and Jill chat or whatever.

Norman Painting18:42

While you and Jules chat, and they suddenly come in and talk to you, you know, or you pick them up and say, you know, who's a clever boy, and all that sort of thing.

Presenter18:50

But they're never really there.

Norman Painting18:51

No, I never met any of them. I I don't think I've ever ever met any of my grandchildren. They're merely a disembodied voice that comes out of microphone.

Presenter19:00

But you'll meet them one day.

Norman Painting19:01

They're prob probably they'll be grown up by then. It's a very odd, very odd feeling.

Presenter19:06

Tell me about record number four.

Norman Painting19:08

Record number four. Ah, yes. Uh when I was an undergraduate at at Birmingham, the British Council took over uh during the war. All their overseas bases were closed, so they opened places in England at universities, and they opened a thing called the University Overseas Club, and various visiting

Norman Painting19:27

Notables were brought over to to this club, and one day we were standing in a line, and along came this rather lugubrious looking

Norman Painting19:36

Gent?

Norman Painting19:37

who turned out to be Francis Boulanc, and I was so overcome I just managed to say

Norman Painting19:42

Enchante maitre.

Norman Painting19:44

I love so much of his work because

Norman Painting19:47

He starts and and suddenly realises, well, things aren't as bad as they might be. I mean, the piece we're going to hear, you think, Ah, Mozart and then he says, Ha ha, gotcha No, it's not, it's it's m it's me, it's Poolag It's joyous, it's it's peachy it on that desert island I shall need this sort of uplift.

Presenter21:05

That was the beginning of the second movement of Poulanc's concerto in D minor for two pianos, played by Poulanc and Jacques Febrier, with the Orquestre de la Societe des Concerre du Conservatoire, conducted by Georges Pretre.

Presenter21:17

Of course few people in Britain, Norman Painting, over fifty or so, could be unaware of the night Grace Archer died in the stables in Brookfield. Your wife, Phil's wife, died attempting to save her favourite horse. She died in your arms, didn't she?

Norman Painting21:32

Yeah.

Norman Painting21:33

Yeah.

Presenter21:33

Nationwide

Presenter21:35

Yeah.

Norman Painting21:37

We recorded those episodes daily, and the cover story was we were experimenting in extending our topicality, and the scripts couldn't be written until the scriptwriters had read the papers. So we did five episodes which were full of topical news, so that on that Thursday we could record The Death of Grace.

Presenter21:56

Twenty million listeners are

Norman Painting21:57

Yes, shortly after that and we we held them for a while, you know, so they couldn't have been that

Presenter22:01

I mean nearly half the nation.

Norman Painting22:03

That's right. It's good.

Presenter22:04

I was going to say watch because, of course, it happened on that night, as we know, in 1955 when commercial television was being launched. Brilliant bit of compare. Don't get defensive.

Norman Painting22:08

I'm not sure.

Norman Painting22:12

Brilliant.

Norman Painting22:14

I see you looking different. Well, I just I'm in a minority of one about this. You see, I think this is one of those wonderful stories that's been concocted. We were a little radio programme heard widely over the country, it's true. But this was opening of commercial radio in London only. I mean it was commercial television.

Presenter22:30

Commercial television.

Presenter22:32

Yeah.

Norman Painting22:32

And I remember they invited the journalists in after we'd recorded this thing, and one chap stood there.

Norman Painting22:39

And he said, what have you done about your switchboard? And the BBC man said, what have you done about your switchboard? He said, I don't understand the question.

Norman Painting22:48

that well you're you're going to be inundated and no no no no I don't think so. And that was the BBC's attitude. It was blocked for forty eight hours in fact. Jammed. Absolutely. You couldn't get through to the BBC at all because of that.

Presenter22:56

Don't

Norman Painting23:00

Uh I'm doing

Presenter23:01

But did you approve of that? Did you approve of the fact that this, as I was going to say earlier, was a brilliant piece of competitive scheduling? Did you know?

Norman Painting23:08

No, I don't see it as as that at all, though there was a much more compelling reason, I think. Gradually more and more opinions were coming up that the archers were getting cosy, and then the dreaded word predictable came.

Norman Painting23:22

And we weren't going to have that.

Norman Painting23:24

And they decided they would kill off one of the most favorite characters. And for some time it was me. It was going to be Phil was going.

Norman Painting23:34

Then they thought there might be more mileage to be got out of making Phil the young.

Norman Painting23:38

Phil, who'd been this patron saint of testosterone, going around terrorizing everything in a skirt.

Presenter23:42

Surprising.

Presenter23:44

Quite a goer, wasn't he? Very much.

Norman Painting23:45

Very much double dating all over the place.

Norman Painting23:50

But I did have a letter written almost I imagine.

Norman Painting23:53

The second the programme finished from a a listener said, I'm so sorry to hear how upset you were. Of course I realized that it was just shock, and when I switch on tonight you'll I shall find that she is still alive and everything will be all right. And it wasn't, and ever after that

Norman Painting24:10

Nobody could accuse us of being predictable because if we could do that, we could do anything.

Presenter24:14

How did the actress who played Grace take it?

Norman Painting24:17

She wasn't very happy. In fact, she was extremely unhappy. She met me with trembling hands, because we weren't given the scripts until just before we recorded them.

Norman Painting24:25

And she said, They've done it. They've done it. They've killed me.

Norman Painting24:29

and was terribly upset.

Norman Painting24:31

Much later.

Norman Painting24:33

Tony Shrine and I concocted a story.

Presenter24:35

The producer.

Norman Painting24:36

Yes, and we brought the actress back in in a different part, which she played for a long time. What did she play? She played Mary Pound.

Norman Painting24:45

who was a farmer's wife who was always seen on a tractor wearing a cloth cap.

Norman Painting24:50

and had a bad deep sort of bass voice, and she was never spotted, and she played that part for some time and in fact every year she and her husband and I meet for a Grace Archer Memorial lunch now.

Presenter25:00

Anniversary of Hedgehog.

Norman Painting25:01

The anniversary of her death on the twenty-second of November, whenever we can.

Presenter25:05

Of course the point is that you used to write a lot of those scripts because you're not just Norman Painting aka Phil Archer, you're also aka Bruno Milner.

Norman Painting25:14

Yes, indeed. I mean I've written a vast amount of radio.

Norman Painting25:17

uh radio three adaptations and so on.

Presenter25:20

The point about writing the the the scripts for the archers was that you wanted to get out of being Phil, didn't you?

Norman Painting25:25

Well, it that wasn't the way it it it started, but that eventually presented itself in that way, because I thought, This is wonderful, I can write myself out. And Godfrey Basley said, No, none of this nonsense. We want you in two episodes a week.

Norman Painting25:38

But I still found ways. I mean, I discovered farmers used to go to New Zealand to study sheep and things, you see, or go on world courses. So I sent Phil and then recorded pathetic little messages on my own domestic tape recorder, which is what Phil would have, at home in my study, where where I was just taking a a few minutes off from writing yet another script.

Norman Painting26:00

And saying, oh, it's terribly hot here in Bangkok in the middle of December.

Presenter26:03

Click on.

Norman Painting26:05

Taking those in with me, and they'd be played into the programme, and of course Phil was nowhere to be seen.

Presenter26:10

Record number five.

Norman Painting26:12

Record number five is again another Christchurch man, William Walton.

Norman Painting26:16

I always get boo goosebumps when I hear the very first part of this of this last movement of of Walton's first symphony.

Presenter27:19

The beginning of the fourth movement of Sir William Walton's Symphony No. One, played by the Philemonia Orchestra, conducted by the composer himself.

Presenter27:26

It sounds to me, Norman painting, as if the arch is really rather like a real family, has had its ructions through down through the ages, hasn't it? Had a few upsets.

Norman Painting27:36

Well, yes, indeed, and and thank God for it. I mean,

Presenter27:39

But not always been a happy ship, is

Norman Painting27:40

Two.

Presenter27:40

Really what I'm saying.

Norman Painting27:42

Well, I I hope by that you mean the st in the story. I mean

Presenter27:46

No, no, I mean for real in the doing of it. You've obviously had a few bones of contention, as you've got it.

Norman Painting27:48

Folks see

Norman Painting27:50

Well, inevitably, over 50 years. I mean, there have been people whose ambitions for the program perhaps are different from what most of us feel they ought to be. And there was a time, I mean, they have always been going to take us off, you know, ever since they put it on. And there were, ten years and more ago, we felt we were going to be thrown to the dogs, you know. I don't think that's the case now. I feel we're as secure now as we've ever been. I think we might be.

Presenter28:17

You must have gone through um some tough times though, because um certainly in in the seventies you you got very depressed, didn't you? I think I mean you were serious clinically depressed.

Norman Painting28:26

Oh yes, yes. I um

Norman Painting28:29

I I it's one of those things that happen to most of us, I suppose, but every every corner of my life seemed to be on a d on a downturn. I'm one I'm basically an optimistic, forward-looking person. But uh uh but it's this thing, you know, of a of a slow death. You think, uh if they're going to get rid of us, why don't they do it?

Presenter28:48

So it was the the problems with the archers that did bring you down?

Norman Painting28:51

Well, it was one of the major things in my life which I'd not till then accepted was a major thing in my life.

Presenter28:51

Well

Presenter29:00

Hi.

Norman Painting29:00

I see. Uh and also I r grossly overworked myself because my colleagues were dying round me.

Norman Painting29:09

I mean, Geoffrey Weber died. Eventually, far too young, Edward J. Mason died.

Presenter29:14

Both the writers who came from Deep Barbara.

Norman Painting29:14

That's right. So one was rather sort of trying to keep the show on the road and carry on the torch, as it were.

Presenter29:21

Exactly,'cause in the eighties you then had am I right in saying you had five heart attacks in four days?

Norman Painting29:25

Four days? I didn't like the way the programme was going. I was very unhappy about it. I felt they were, to use an archer's expression, eating the seed corn. And characters were being killed. Now, if you don't like a character, you can send them to the Antipodes, but you don't have to kill them. And I felt that the programme was destroying itself. So I wrote my last episode, and I wrote in my diary, wrote my last episode, strange lack of emotion, and three months to the day.

Norman Painting29:51

I had the first of five heart attacks in four days. After two I got myself into intensive care where I had cardiac arrest and was dead and virtually written off by the BBC, by the archers, by everybody for a while. He can't survive. And I'm glad to say that was eighteen and a half years ago, so I'm still here.

Norman Painting30:11

I've always been interested in Stravinsky, but this particular work happened almost by accident. I heard it.

Norman Painting30:19

Just before I had those heart attacks.

Norman Painting30:22

and when I was in intensive care,

Norman Painting30:25

I was allowed to have a little radio, and there was only me in intensive care at the time. Then there was a a consultant taken ill at a party who was in the next bed to me.

Norman Painting30:33

And I said, The proms are on. Do you mind if I listen to the proms? And he said, Are you allowed to? I said, No, but they don't seem to mind.

Norman Painting30:40

I think they think I'm dying. So I knew I'd heard in a trail that this was coming, and I listened to the symphony itself.

Norman Painting30:48

which I've always found enormously comforting.

Norman Painting30:51

And uh I'm quite sure.

Norman Painting30:54

On the desert island, and those times when inevitably one is feeling a little down,

Norman Painting30:59

Then this, I think, will put things right and comfort one.

Presenter32:01

The English Bach Festival Chorus, singing The End of Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein. You live alone, Norman. You have nothing of the huge extended family that Phil has, even though he hasn't met half his grandchildren. How have you been spending Christmas?

Speaker 132:15

Yeah.

Norman Painting32:15

He hasn't

Norman Painting32:20

Well, I have um

Norman Painting32:21

You've heard of neighbors from hell, I have neighbours from heaven.

Norman Painting32:26

And it's a sort of tradition that I spend Christmas Day with them.

Presenter32:30

And when you

Norman Painting32:31

Ponder on the future.

Presenter32:32

What do you envisi do you envisage that you will go on and on doing the arches? Or will you ask at some point to be written out?

Norman Painting32:40

Oh, I've done that. I've I've asked

Presenter32:42

They've refused their voice.

Norman Painting32:43

Yes, I've asked to be written out or or or to be to finish. I've even offered, each time I've been ill, I've offered to give them a few dying groans so that they can have Phil ringing up and saying, and another thing, oh

Presenter32:56

Live from intensive chemicals.

Norman Painting32:57

Well, exactly. And uh they won't have it at any cost. I it doesn't worry me. You see, death has never been a problem. But fictional death is probably more of a problem in that case, isn't it? Well, possibly. Though I'm told that they will do with Phil as they did with Dan.

Presenter33:03

Come.

Norman Painting33:13

And I was writing when we got we tried to get Dan and Doris out of Brookfield.

Norman Painting33:17

And they wouldn't go, you know. We kept saying we'll just do it in the next quarter. And for some reason or other we couldn't get about it. So what have you agreed, Wilhelm? It has been decided. Vague things about there'll be enough to keep you pottering about in the village, you see. I mean, in my experience

Norman Painting33:35

People who worked extremely hard.

Norman Painting33:37

are forcibly retired and within six months are dead. Or

Norman Painting33:42

Within six months of saying, I don't know how I ever had time to go to work, I've got so many things to do, and I hope Phil will be like that.

Presenter33:49

Record number seven.

Norman Painting33:50

Oh, now, yes. Now, for this, I'd I'd like, if I may, so have all the symphonic music of Elgar, you know, the concertos and the variations and the symphonies, and all the choral works, Gerontius, the Apostles, Light of Life, the Kingdom.

Presenter34:02

Yeah.

Norman Painting34:04

Oh, can't I? I mean, I can't go on the desert island without Elgar. I mean, this could have been eight Elgar records.

Presenter34:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Norman Painting34:11

Well, while I was playing things through, thinking about this, I've found I've got um

Norman Painting34:17

There's a fill-up to my recording of The Apostles conducted by Adrian Bolt. I've been enchanted by it. It's a it's really a kind of talk or lecture by Adrian Bolt describing all the choral works of Elgar with musical illustrations. And uh if I'm not cheating slightly, I'd like to hear Adrian Bolt's splendid voice and uh

Norman Painting34:41

Perhaps one or even two excerpts from Elgar, depending on how much time we have. Can we do that?

Norman Painting34:47

In eighteen ninety six he wrote

Speaker 334:48

He wrote his first oratorio, The Light of Life.

Speaker 334:52

which tells how sight was restored to a blind man.

Speaker 334:56

In the prelude to this short work there is this fine tune.

Speaker 335:21

The other quotation comes from the dream of Gerantius.

Speaker 335:25

It represents Christ's peace and is heard in the first few bars which Garantius sing.

Presenter35:43

Two for the prize of one there. We've got Sir Adrian Bolt introducing, first of all, part of the prelude to Elgar's Meditation from the Light of Life, played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra, and Adrian Bolt conducting. And then we had a little bit of The Dream of Garantius sung by Richard Lewis. Bit of a cheat, but it is some holiday time.

Speaker 135:45

Sir H.

Presenter36:01

You're going to. It's very therapeutic for you, all this music, isn't it? You're going to really wallow on this desert island. Most of it, yes.

Norman Painting36:08

Yeah.

Presenter36:08

So will it all hold you together, or do you think you're going to get very lonely, left to your own devices on this island?

Norman Painting36:14

It's a dangerous thing to say, isn't it? But I don't think I shall be lonely. I've lived alone from choice for a greater part of my life.

Norman Painting36:22

Of course it's it's it's been

Norman Painting36:25

qualified aloneness. In other words, I'm always popping into the studio or or whatever, whereas on a desert island you literally are alone. But I think I could I can cope with that. I

Presenter36:35

But let me ask you this. Which of all the fictional characters from Ambridge, if you could have with you and you can't on your desert island, which one would you take?

Norman Painting36:44

The fictional character.

Norman Painting36:46

Yeah.

Presenter36:46

I think the snail would keep you busy if you

Norman Painting36:49

Yes, but who would ask?

Presenter36:50

Yeah.

Norman Painting36:51

For Linda Snell to be your only other companion. No, no, no.

Presenter36:53

And then next.

Norman Painting36:54

Do you group?

Presenter36:54

Joe Grundy?

Norman Painting36:56

No, but perhaps Eddie Grundy might might liven things up a bit.

Presenter37:00

But if he might play you some music, that would be

Norman Painting37:00

Yeah.

Norman Painting37:02

Well, there is that. But perhaps he could be washed ashore without his guitar. Um or sort of going back into the past, I suppose uh

Norman Painting37:12

My radio mum, with to whom I was very close, Doris Archer, Gwen Berryman,

Norman Painting37:17

Or even uh Robert Maudsley, who played uh Water Gabriel, because uh he was

Norman Painting37:24

So very different in real life from the character he played that that could be fun.

Presenter37:30

Tell me about your last record.

Norman Painting37:32

Well, this is Hubert. Um

Norman Painting37:36

I found this Schubert.

Norman Painting37:39

Quintet.

Norman Painting37:40

Almost by accident. This young man was doomed. He was a sick man. He knew he was dying. And the music just seems to happen. He doesn't seem to have to struggle for it. It's there. And I think in those

Norman Painting37:52

Inevitable bleak, black moments one'll get on the island.

Norman Painting37:56

I won't be able to say, Oh yes, Schubert knew.

Presenter38:56

The ensemble Villa Musica, playing the beginning of the second movement of Schubert's string quintet in C major. It is very beautiful, isn't it? If you could only take one of those eight records, Norman, which one would you take?

Norman Painting39:08

I think it would have to be the Schubert. That is so

Norman Painting39:13

triumphantly facing death and not being daunted.

Presenter39:16

Well

Norman Painting39:16

That uh it's irresistible.

Presenter39:18

What about your book?

Norman Painting39:20

Oh yes, now, don't panic. It sounds pretty heavy. It's called The Perennial Philosophy, and it's by Aldous Huxley. It's his attempt to find uh the the essence of most of the major religions of the world in in the form of extracts from their writings and his very dry, unemotional commentary on them.

Presenter39:42

What about your luxury?

Norman Painting39:44

What I'd really like, of course, is a dog, but I mean I know that's a living creature, we can't have that. There's a thing called an orreary, which is a kind of educational toy. It's a model of the solar system, and you turn a lever and they all revolve in their correct courses. And I thought if I had one of those, I could play for hours with it, and also study the southern sky, I suppose it would be, and perhaps make a little bit more sense of the universe.

Presenter40:10

Norman Painting, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs, and um happy anniversary.

Norman Painting40:16

Thank you very much, sir.

Speaker 140:25

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.