Albie Sachs

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in the year two thousand, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a lawyer. He was born in South Africa into a white Jewish family who were strong supporters of black rights. His belief in justice led naturally to a love of freedom for everyone. In the 1960s he was imprisoned and spent nearly six months in solitary confinement. Then came 24 years of exile, but still actively supporting the ANC, the African National Congress. For that, in 1988, he was blown up by a car bomb and lost an arm and the sight of an eye. Today he's back in the country of his birth, one of the architects of the new system of government and a constitutional judge. His books reveal him to be free of bitterness. He's an optimist, working hard for the future of his beloved country. Looking back, I have a sense of elation that we never gave up, he says. He is Alby Sachs. You can say that, of course, Alby, because you won, you triumphed.

Presenter1:26

Albie the freedom fighter became Alby Sachs the High Court judge. But can you really have believed that through all of those years? Can you really have been always with optimism in your heart?

Albie Sachs1:38

We never lost the belief. It was a conviction. It wasn't based on rational evidence. And I remember we used to knock on doors and say, apartheid is terrible. Everybody agreed. And one day we'll have a non-racial constitution which all be equal. And people smiled and said, well, it's not really possible. And when Mandela and Co. come out of prison they'll be filled with bitterness and rage and hatred and we just knew it wouldn't be like that.

Presenter2:05

But y you said something interesting, which is that i i i it was the bomb which maimed you that blew the optimism back into you. In a way it was the solitary confinement that that that sapped a lot of of of your strength and your drive. But a bomb that maimed you so much somehow gave you optimism. How so?

Albie Sachs2:23

The solitary confinement was terrible, and it was followed by torture, by sleep deprivation, the sense of humiliation, and that sense of other people can dictate to you. That's terrible. You never quite get over it.

Presenter2:34

I never

Presenter2:35

But what you kept throughout all of that is a sense that these were fellow human beings, and in a sense that's the spirit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, too, isn't it? That you have to get back to we are human beings first before we're anything else.

Albie Sachs2:50

I was very worried at one stage when I was in prison. I couldn't hate the gods. I thought I'm a failed revolutionary. What's wrong with me? I should be angry, ready to rise up to kill. I never really felt that. I just saw people there doing jobs. I would get cross with things that they did. But somehow I felt they were a distorted part of the same nation. We were kind of tied together.

Albie Sachs3:12

I met one of the guys who organized the bomb in my car. He phoned me up in my chambers. He said, Would I see him?

Albie Sachs3:20

And I was very curious to see him.

Presenter3:22

He'd planted the bomb, hadn't he?

Albie Sachs3:23

He had actually done the logistics. He'd photographed my car. He'd arranged for the explosive to be put there. He said when I eventually saw him that in fact he'd dropped out because the action had been delayed, so he wasn't around at the final time. But it was a very strange moment. He came up to my chambers and I opened the door and here was this chap.

Albie Sachs3:43

I'd never seen him, I'd never quarrelled with him, we weren't angry with each other, we hadn't fought over anything. He didn't know me, but he tried to kill me.

Albie Sachs3:52

He's now out of the army. He's abandoned by the generals and the politicians who rewarded him before. And he was almost asking for sympathy from me. I'm a judge, I've got a good salary. He almost wanted me to feel sorry for him. And I said, Henry, when we left, I can't shake your hand. Normally I shake my hand when I say goodbye to somebody.

Presenter4:11

Although you shake with your left hand now.

Albie Sachs4:11

So you shake with your leg.

Albie Sachs4:13

With my left hand, you right.

Presenter4:14

Uh

Albie Sachs4:15

But I said, maybe if you tell the Truth Commission everything you know, maybe we'll meet one day, who knows? And about nine months later I was at a party and a voice said, I'll be in. I looked around.

Albie Sachs4:26

And I saw a face a bit familiar, but strange. Henry, I said, and he was beaming, he was radiant. And he said, Alby, I've written to the Truth Commission, I've told them everything. And I said, Yes, Henry, I said

Albie Sachs4:40

I could shake your hand and I shook his hand. He went away absolutely beaming and I almost fainted.

Albie Sachs4:46

And the story ended there except about a month ago. I asked somebody, by the way, what happened to Henry?

Albie Sachs4:52

She said Henry went home and he cried for two weeks.

Presenter4:57

Tell me about your first record. We as you know, we're shipping you off to a desert island. I think you have absolutely no desire to go to one. But uh tell me about the first record you play on this mythical one anyway.

Albie Sachs5:08

When I was in my solitary confinement, to keep up my courage, I used to pace up and down the tiny cell and I used to sing out loud and whistle.

Albie Sachs5:17

And one day I heard whistling coming back,

Albie Sachs5:20

And I whistled back

Albie Sachs5:22

And there was a connection. And I tried out all the songs of Struggle that I knew, and there was no response. So I knew it wasn't someone from my ANC Associated group.

Albie Sachs5:32

And the only tune that we could share was the Going Home theme from the New World Symphony.

Albie Sachs5:39

And to this day my skin prickles when I hear it.

Presenter6:35

Part of the second movement of Drozzak's Symphony No. Nine in E minor from the New World, played by the New York Philhomolic, conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter6:42

That was the the haunting tune you whistled through the bars uh of your cell. Did did you ever discover who whistled that?

Albie Sachs6:49

I did, but uh months afterwards it was somebody named Dorothy Adams and we met up again in England.

Presenter6:56

But great comfort because you were entirely alone. You were alone in all for, what, a hundred and sixty eight days, wasn't it?

Albie Sachs7:02

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter7:03

What do they want out of you?

Albie Sachs7:05

I never found out exactly. It was detention without trial, no charge. But clearly I I was involved with underground activities against apartheid when everything was banned.

Albie Sachs7:16

And I'd cross-examined many of the police in political civil rights trials, so I wasn't popular with them.

Presenter7:24

Because I think you have the hold the undesirable record of being held the longest under that particular law, didn't you? The the ninety day law. Because of course they had to let you go after ninety days, but they could immediately rearrest you.

Albie Sachs7:37

Right. They detained me for 90 days, released me for about three minutes, pretending.

Albie Sachs7:42

That I'm being genuinely released, giving me back my watch and my tie, and as I

Albie Sachs7:48

walked out of the charge office, the police station. One of the cops comes back in, shakes me by the hand. They have to touch you when they arrest you again, so I'm placing you under arrest.

Presenter7:58

And indeed, we we saw that that was dramatized because you wrote the book, The Jail Diary of Alby Saxon. It was dramatized by the RSC, and indeed was a television production. And again.

Presenter8:07

We felt this optimism, nevertheless, despite all of the deprivations that you suffered. But as you say, they knew you. Do you think they felt awkward because you were a white man? They were used to doing that to black men, weren't they? But not to white men.

Albie Sachs8:21

They felt awkward in some ways, but also because I was.

Albie Sachs8:25

Learned, I was an advocate, I was a lawyer.

Albie Sachs8:28

and that made them a little bit uncomfortable. But on the other hand I think at times they had a special anger and hatred for me.

Albie Sachs8:34

Because I came from the same community. So in my case it wasn't just a case of oppressed people fighting back. It was a moral challenge. It was a choice. So I would be seen as a traitor.

Presenter8:46

Of course, you didn't crack that time, 168 days, as we say, but two years later they took you again and you did crack. What was the difference? What made the difference?

Albie Sachs8:55

Sleep deprivation.

Albie Sachs8:56

Eventually, after being kept awake all day and all night, I just collapsed onto the floor. They poured water on me, and I started talking.

Albie Sachs9:05

I held back quite a lot.

Albie Sachs9:07

But the mere fact that I said anything at all was a terrible defeat for me, and I've never recovered from that.

Presenter9:14

And have you ever met any of them since your interrogators?

Albie Sachs9:18

The one I met who'd been in charge of me the first time round, I was walking down the street and suddenly there he was and we couldn't avoid each other.

Albie Sachs9:28

and it suddenly occurs to me I put out my hand and shook his hand.

Albie Sachs9:31

It was like a little bit of triumph on my part that I'd survived the interrogation, and he seemed so happy that I was willing to shake his hand. Did he look you in the eye? He did, he did. But I must say when he I heard about ten years later I heard that he died

Albie Sachs9:48

and I had a surge of elation, and I was kind of ashamed of it.

Albie Sachs9:52

Because, you know, someone's died, there'll be a family that's suffering.

Albie Sachs9:55

It was almost like I'd survived.

Albie Sachs9:57

after all that humiliation. So there was another side of me a little less generous.

Presenter10:02

Tell me about your second record.

Albie Sachs10:05

Abdullah Ibrahim, when I first met him he was dollar brand.

Albie Sachs10:10

He used to play in a

Albie Sachs10:12

a sort of barn-like place upstairs in Cape Town was the only place where black and white really met.

Albie Sachs10:18

Jazz, they were the poets of a new South Africa. They wrote a new constitution long before we got the text. They did it through their music.

Albie Sachs10:27

And the piece of music, Mannenberg, became almost a sort of unofficial anthem of South Africa. And I was particularly moved by the fact that the saxophonist Basil Mannenberg, after whom the piece is named Basil Mannenberg Could See,

Albie Sachs10:43

Uh when I ran

Albie Sachs10:46

to the beach. Thirty years after I ran to the beach after being released from solitary confinement, Basil Mannenberg could see was on the beach with a saxophone. As I jumped into the sea, fully clothed with people around, he was playing lovely saxophone music, and this was some of the music.

Presenter11:30

Abdullah Ibrahim, known before as Dollar Brand, playing Mannenberg is where it's happening. And memories for you, Alby Sachs, of running to that beach after the first free elections in nineteen ninety four. Same beach as you say you'd run to out of solitary confinement.

Albie Sachs11:44

Yes, just before the elections. And it was the moment when I actually announced that I'm stepping out of partisan politics because now I wanted to think about becoming a judge. So it was a very big physical kind of moment for me.

Presenter11:59

What about the big moment when you return to South Africa after what, twenty-four years or so of exile, nineteen ninety that was? What did you do then?

Albie Sachs12:06

I hugged my mother.

Albie Sachs12:08

And then I climbed Table Mountain. The mountain was so much for me.

Albie Sachs12:13

In the worst years of repression.

Albie Sachs12:15

I could climb the mountain when I was under all sorts of restriction orders, and if the cops were following me, I could look down the rocks and I could see them.

Albie Sachs12:23

All the years I just dreamt when I got back I'm going to climb Table Mountain.

Presenter12:28

What about your mother? She was there, as you say, in 1990 at the airport. Had had you seen her in the interim or did she remain there?

Albie Sachs12:33

I had seen her for a long, long time. She wasn't able to travel. And then I saw her.

Albie Sachs12:41

Once, I think, in London, and once, once in Mozambique.

Presenter12:44

Not a lot.

Albie Sachs12:44

Not a lot, no, twenty-four years.

Presenter12:46

She was a cool

Presenter12:47

Tough lady

Albie Sachs12:48

Very brave and full of spirit, when when she knew she was very, very ill, she insisted on donating her body to medical school.

Albie Sachs12:57

She wanted to be useful even after she was dead. And I discovered it's not easy to get into medical school. Even when you're dead, you mustn't be too fat, you mustn't have died of trauma. She was like examined. I had to come back the next day and the chap in charge said, like your mother passed. And I felt so elated, so happy for her.

Presenter13:13

Good.

Presenter13:16

He'll do.

Presenter13:17

She, as I say, and your father were both politically active, weren't they tr active in trade union movements as well. So in a sense, you were brought up a political animal.

Albie Sachs13:29

Yes. For a long time I hated my parents putting on to me their views. But then I met up with a young crowd. We called ourselves the Modern Youth Society.

Presenter13:40

And you went, of course, you you you forged the link, really, didn't you, between this kind of white academia, as it were, that you were in then. You started going down, as it were, to the flats, to the shanty towns by night.

Albie Sachs13:53

Very much so. And I almost felt a repudiation of the world of ideas at university that seemed so detached. And the real life, the real passion for justice would be in a shanty at night. And only when I came back in 1990 and we started drafting a new constitution was I able to connect up the passion of the people who really fought hardest for justice in our country, living in the shanties, with the grand ideas which have been developed all over the world.

Presenter14:21

More music. What's the next one?

Albie Sachs14:24

When I came into classical music, the greatest capacity of music to reach the human being, to speak almost in a human voice, was through the violin. And the piece I've chosen is David Oustrach playing the cadenza

Albie Sachs14:37

From the I think it's the third movement, and it leads into the fourth movement of Shostakovic's Violin Concerto.

Presenter15:12

David Oystrach playing part of Shostakovich's violin concerto number one in A minor with the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Yevgeny Mravinski.

Presenter15:21

So you defied the barriers and the taboos, Albisachs. You became an anti-apartheid lawyer, civil rights lawyer. You were obviously a marked man from then on.

Presenter15:32

Were you frightened? Did you realize you were mot- or were you just full of youthful idealism?

Albie Sachs15:39

I was full of youthful idealism then, and I think I'm still full of naive youthful idealism. It's wonderful not to have grown up in that sense.

Presenter15:47

But in those days, presumably your phone was bugged, your mail was red, all those things.

Albie Sachs15:47

Uh

Albie Sachs15:53

I lived for decades with that knowledge that I had no privacy, that others could be following me, watching me, listening to me. It was only when I was lying in a hospital, London hospital, after the bomb for a couple of weeks, that I suddenly felt, gosh, you know, I'm in a world without bugs.

Presenter16:11

What you d did when you went through um some of these horrible experiences each time you wrote you wrote your way, it seems to him was writing a therapy.

Albie Sachs16:22

It was, it organized the chaos. It didn't bring emotions out.

Albie Sachs16:27

That I'd been suppressing and burying. It wasn't therapeutic in that sense, or cathartic.

Albie Sachs16:34

But it made sense. It converted the terrible negativity, the grossness, the violence, the brutality into beauty.

Albie Sachs16:41

And I was in charge of the word. I could take that energy, the destructive energy, and it almost felt at times it was like capturing it in a waterfall and converting it into electricity and light.

Presenter16:53

Record number four.

Albie Sachs16:56

It's Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald for sheer panache.

Albie Sachs17:01

serenity, ease in what's really quite a difficult song, and interest. I don't think you can beat them. And I spent many foggy days in in London town.

Speaker 417:12

I saw you there And through foggy London town the sun was shin

Speaker 417:21

Morning everyone

Presenter17:36

Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and Oscar Peterson with A Foggy Day. I want to ask you, Alby Sachs, a little, if I may, about the bomb. Nineteen eighty eight, you were fifty three years old, living and working in Maputo in Mozambique.

Presenter17:51

Working there, but also working on the Bill of Rights for South Africa, active member of the ANC. You were fifty three and you were meant to die. What what happened exactly?

Albie Sachs18:04

I know I was going to the beach.

Albie Sachs18:06

and uh just suddenly total darkness and I thought I'd bang my head on a rock like I used to do sometimes climbing Table Mountain and

Albie Sachs18:15

And then

Albie Sachs18:17

I felt what seemed like a terrible thud.

Albie Sachs18:20

and I felt arms pulling me, and I thought I'm being kidnapped.

Albie Sachs18:24

And I shouted Leave me, leave me in Portuguese and English, and I half remember shouting not too loudly because I was a lawyer in a public place and you shouldn't make a disturbance. And then total oblivion, total darkness. And then just hearing all these voices. And I got angry. I'm not a piece of luggage, people saying do this, do that. I couldn't hear the words. I could pick up the agitated emotion. And then total darkness. And I recall.

Albie Sachs18:52

the pain and I I said if they're going to kidnap me at least they can have a car with decent springs.

Albie Sachs18:58

and then fading out again.

Albie Sachs19:00

and uh total quiet, silence, darkness, and then a voice sang to me, I'll be

Albie Sachs19:07

This is Eva Gurido.

Albie Sachs19:09

You're in the Maputo Central Hospital. Your arm is in lamentable condition.

Albie Sachs19:14

And

Albie Sachs19:16

and you have to face the future with courage.

Presenter19:19

But I wonder had you realized of course you'd realized you were you were a target, but in a sense, again, reading about you, it seems to me you thought it kind of wouldn't happen to you or?

Albie Sachs19:30

Yes, I wasn't doing underground work. I was just a professor working in Mozambique. I was just recently at Southampton University seeing colleagues who'd come there to do a workshop on shipping law in Mozambique. There's nothing subversive about that. But I think

Albie Sachs19:48

Well, I think every intellectual likes to be taken seriously, maybe not quite that seriously. And I think there was this racist idea that it's the whites who stirring things up. If we can get rid of them,

Albie Sachs20:00

All this black opposition will go away. The blacks are really only interested in a full stomach. They don't want political rights.

Presenter20:07

So they thought they'd get rid of you. They didn't. And in fact you became a

Presenter20:12

a hero of of the ANC, certainly, and I know that's something that you've felt and always have done ambivalent about. But it in a way I I suppose your your lack of an arm

Presenter20:23

qualified you almost physically, visibly, as an ambassador for the struggle, didn't it?

Albie Sachs20:29

Yes. I joined what I call the Democracy of the Disabled.

Albie Sachs20:34

And in South Africa it was very moving, the way black and white came together, again before the Constitution was there.

Presenter20:41

But it became, as I said, sort of almost a badge of office in and in that sense it your lack of an arm became public property, if that's possible to mix the metaphors. In a sense, have you now reclaimed yourself again? Is your lack of an arm your own lack again?

Albie Sachs20:50

It did.

Albie Sachs20:58

If I were offered my arm back, I probably wouldn't accept it. I'm so used to living as I am. And it took me a while to

Albie Sachs21:06

Not feel ugly.

Albie Sachs21:08

or not feel the way I put it was I mustn't impose

Albie Sachs21:12

My amputation.

Albie Sachs21:14

my scarred body on the sight of others, but really I was

Albie Sachs21:19

covering up for myself, until I said, Well, this is the way I am.

Albie Sachs21:23

Record number five.

Albie Sachs21:26

It's from Beethoven's Hammerklefeir.

Albie Sachs21:29

Er senate?

Albie Sachs21:31

It's the slow third movement.

Albie Sachs21:34

The first time I really heard it.

Albie Sachs21:36

Was as I was recovering from the bomb, I went to Portugal.

Albie Sachs21:41

I had a wonderful friend there.

Albie Sachs21:43

Who just took me in and in London I'd been so correct. If I went to sleep late, it was 11:35 and early 11:25. She shattered the whole thing. We would talk right through the night. She got me walking, she got me into the cold water, and she also we would sit in the bath together, and I learned to enjoy my body again, and she played this music. She said, Albi, you must listen.

Albie Sachs22:07

And she played the slow movement over and over and over again. And I thought, That's cheating. If you want to hear the slow movement, you've got to start with the first movement, play it all the way through to hear the choice bits to hell with that. You know, she played it

Albie Sachs22:22

She had to top up the water again. And so it's beautiful music. It's recovering rediscovering my body.

Albie Sachs22:30

I'm sure Beethoven would have

Albie Sachs22:33

approved enormously of the circumstances in which the music uh was heard.

Presenter23:37

Alfred Brendel playing part of the third movement of Beethoven's piano sonata, number twenty nine in B flat, the Hammer Clavier.

Presenter23:44

And then Alby Sachs, finally everything you'd worked for, began to happen. Apartheid began to crumble. Nelson Mandela was released from Robin Island after twenty seven years' incarceration for you and

Presenter23:56

All the people you'd worked with, it was all beginning to happen. Where where were you in that moment? Well you must remember exactly the point.

Albie Sachs24:04

The magical moment was February the second when the ANC was unbanned, and I was in Lusaka working with the Constitutional Committee of the ANC, and we worked right through lunch. I remember we had some tea and a stale

Albie Sachs24:17

Roll to eat, that was all. And about four o'clock some one said, Well, let's listen to the B B C.

Albie Sachs24:24

Uh Diktierk is supposed to make another one of his announcements.

Albie Sachs24:27

And we got it about ten past four, and the commentator was saying, And because of the unbanning of the A and C.

Albie Sachs24:35

because of the unbanning of the ANC, we jumped up and that was the moment of greatest joy. Then the release of Mandela followed afterwards, and I watched that on television. I was in London. And I still remember

Albie Sachs24:48

Sometimes how gloomy the international human rights movement is. Mandela came out with a huge radiant smile, and my antiparate friends in London were so angry and cross. And I said it's the wrong way round. He should be angry and cross, and you should be smiling, if if anything.

Presenter25:05

And now you say you were saying earlier on that you've

Presenter25:08

dissociated yourself or cut yourself off from the ANC or or depoliticized yourself.

Albie Sachs25:13

Depoliticise yourself.

Presenter25:15

Why?

Albie Sachs25:16

When people come into court they must see a judge there defending the Constitution. They mustn't see, Oh, I'll be the ANC militant or so-and-so who belonged to this party or no party.

Presenter25:26

But they surely do, whatever you are on paper or are not.

Albie Sachs25:30

No, they'll remember where I came from. That's fine. But we've had maybe twenty cases involving either the government or the ANC.

Albie Sachs25:38

At least half of them we've gone against the Government or the ANC and against Nelson Mandela.

Albie Sachs25:44

And they've accepted it with good grace. And if any of them are cross, I see some of my old mates sitting in court and their face is getting a bit long sometimes.

Albie Sachs25:52

Saying, well, you shouldn't have written that damn fool constitution. You know, it's too late to complain now.

Presenter25:58

So as I say, the whole struggle was vindicated, validated, made sense, but it hasn't been that easy, nevertheless. I want to talk to you about that in just a moment. But let's pause. Let's have record number six.

Albie Sachs26:12

I think the two groups that received the most support internationally were the Chileans and the South Africans.

Albie Sachs26:19

And I was very moved by the way members of the English.

Albie Sachs26:25

Intelligentsia generally connected up with Chilean theatre people, arts people and music in particular. And John Williams linked up very easily and naturally with the a group Inti Ilimani.

Presenter27:03

Inti Ilimani with John Williams and Paccopena playing La Fiesta de la Tirana.

Presenter27:09

Um

Presenter27:10

The transition is proving hugely difficult in in South Africa, Albisaks, despite all the optimism surrounding the release and and the switch to black majority rule.

Presenter27:20

The country hasn't yet achieved that stability and equality, huge problems, unemployment, crime, AIDS. How long does it take? How long does it take to fulfil the dream?

Albie Sachs27:33

I think we've made uh huge progress.

Albie Sachs27:36

We're getting institutions in place. Democracy is there functioning with people going into the RG Bargie and being crossed. We have a very, very strong what's called civil society, a trade union movement, religious organizations. We are, in that sense, a very stable modern democracy with a rich culture.

Presenter27:54

But a tremendous number of people who had so little before still have so little.

Albie Sachs27:58

Absolutely. The inequalities are gross. They're still associated with race. Unemployment is our biggest single problem. If we can get growth and get more employment, it makes it much easier to deal with crime and even to respond to AIDS, which is very, very tragic in our country. But the

Presenter28:17

But how do you do that?

Albie Sachs28:19

We've done what's necessary. Everybody tells us. The old revolutionaries are telling us that our economic fundamentals are sound. Hopefully, there will be the inward investment now and there will be a use of internal resources for the lift off. We are in a phase of growth now, and there's no shortcut to that.

Presenter28:38

So you're you're obviously your optimism is still there, and it must be there, because the miracle has been achieved, and that's what's so frustrating, so ironic, isn't it? That that actually that which ought to be much more easily achievable isn't yet being achieved.

Albie Sachs28:52

I've said we're good at doing the impossible, now let's do the ordinary. But when you achieve the impossible, you put things in place and then you can afford to make some mistakes. But I see in terms of ordinary human contact, in terms of dignity and certainly in terms of culture, it's such a rich country. But it's history that's put us in the position with a fine constitution to write, I think, some very pioneering jurisprudence for the whole world. This is something that's enduring.

Presenter29:21

Number seven.

Albie Sachs29:23

It has to be in Cosi Sikaleli, Africa.

Albie Sachs29:26

It's a hymn that united believers and non believers, Africans, non Africans. And when I watch the beginnings of a rugby match and I see these big hulking forwards

Albie Sachs29:39

Trying to look as terrible as possible to intimidate the other side, singing in Cozi Siko Lady Africa, I'm just totally moved.

Speaker 430:02

Yes, who's each other?

Presenter30:13

Cosi sikalele Africa from the soundtrack of Cry Freedom. God watch over Africa. God bless Africa. You you got that into the constitution, I think.

Albie Sachs30:21

Yes, yes. In fact, I was the one responsible for having it in. There was a lot of discussion and debate about phrases like in humble submission to Almighty God which some people wanted in, others felt that it's inappropriate to have that in a constitution. And the obvious solution to me was to put in Causi Sicule Africa, which everybody could feel comfortable with.

Presenter30:44

So there you are, on the beach of your desert island, singing your national anthem. Um could you bear it for long? As we've said, you've had more than enough practice at such things. But is would can you see that there would be any joy at all in that kind of isolation?

Albie Sachs30:59

Uh they would be. Uh

Albie Sachs31:02

It's like a puzzle.

Albie Sachs31:04

How to manage. Even now, I often have a puzzle. How can I lift something up with my one hand? I was in a train once in England and

Albie Sachs31:11

If I can say so, the English look without looking. They're far too polite to actually stare. And I kind of had my body language said, don't help me.

Albie Sachs31:20

I want to get my suitcase up onto the luggage rack on my own. I knew I could do it, and in the end, I lifted it, put it on the.

Albie Sachs31:27

Table

Albie Sachs31:29

Got it from the table onto my shoulder, showed onto my head, on the head up onto the rack.

Albie Sachs31:34

And the people wanted to applaud, but of course they were too polite to applaud. And I got pleasure out of solving the puzzle. So this would be a puzzle to manage on the island.

Presenter31:45

Tell me about your last piece of music.

Albie Sachs31:48

I'm I'm a late convert to opera and it was so hard choosing between Mozart

Albie Sachs31:54

Wagner and Puccini.

Albie Sachs31:56

But in the end I've gone for Puccini. And in the end for the opera that I know the least, Turandotte, I saw it once, and and this queen, she's magnificent, she's chopping off the heads of all these suitors. It's a kind of imperious feminism.

Albie Sachs32:12

a revenge for all the cruelty that's been done to women.

Speaker 433:07

His king of all.

Presenter33:12

Eugenio Fernandi as Calaff and Maria Callas as Turandotte, from the end of Act Two of Puccini's opera with the orchestra and chorus of La Scala Milan conducted by Tullio Serafine. Now here's another puzzle for you, Alby. If you could only take one of those eight records, which one would you choose?

Albie Sachs33:28

It would be the Beethoven.

Presenter33:30

And what about your book? We give you the Bible, and we give you the complete works of Shakespeare.

Presenter33:35

To got those.

Albie Sachs33:36

The book I would take would be The Charter House of Palmer by Stendahl.

Albie Sachs33:41

It's a very poetical book.

Albie Sachs33:44

And uh it's

Albie Sachs33:46

an individual with a strong sensibility, puzzled by war and revolution and change. And I read it and I identified so strongly with I think his name was Fabrice.

Albie Sachs33:58

That would be my book.

Presenter34:00

And what about your luxury?

Albie Sachs34:02

A little bottle of after shave.

Albie Sachs34:05

Again, it came to me late in life. We repudiated anything that it wasn't that it made you sissy.

Albie Sachs34:12

but that somehow showed self-indulgence, and just the idea of perfume that serves no purpose at all other than just to make you feel good.

Albie Sachs34:20

and I would probably ration the little squirts, and when that's over I would search the island to find some pods or some blossoms or something, and see if I could make something that would just smell nice and make me feel all the associations with those luxuries that I repudiated for so long.

Presenter34:40

Judge Alby Sachs, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Speaker 334:51

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.