General Sir Charles Guthrie

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in the year two thousand, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My castaway this week is a soldier. He's been in the army since he was 18, first at Sandhurst, then in the Welsh Guards, and after that in the SAS. He's seen active service in Aden, Oman, Malaysia, and East Africa. He's commanded his regiment in Germany and Northern Ireland, and so ascended to high command. Throughout all of this, he's stuck firmly to the view that his job is to do good and fight for his country and his beliefs. Blimpish rhetoric, however, has no place in his vocabulary. He's a thoroughly modern general, straightforward, thoughtful, and very much alive to the political nature of his soldierly role. Generals, he reflects, don't need to be liked, but it helps. He is the chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir Charles Guthrie. But I've heard tell, Sir Charles, that grown men have known to tremble under your gaze. Coffee cups rattle in their saucers after dinner.

General Sir Charles Guthrie1:21

Yeah.

General Sir Charles Guthrie1:24

Well, I haven't noticed that happening myself, but I suppose it could have happened. I think that it's no bad thing if generals sometimes show a bit of steel.

General Sir Charles Guthrie1:35

But there's no real magic formula about being a general. Some people do it one way, some people do it in another way.

Presenter1:42

But you don't lose your temper, do you? I again I read this, you don't ever lose your temper, is that true?

General Sir Charles Guthrie1:47

No, I don't think I do lose my temper, but um I think people are wear when I want something done.

Presenter1:53

How do you do it if you're not raising your voice?

Presenter1:56

Are you looking daggers? Are you colouring up? What are you doing?

General Sir Charles Guthrie1:59

Well maybe I looked aggress, but uh I don't often have to do that, I promise you.

Presenter2:04

But what you're after, and there is a serious point here, is what you're after is discipline, obedience.

General Sir Charles Guthrie2:11

I'm after producing the best armed forces for the country which we can possibly have.

Presenter2:18

And obviously, if the fate of the nation is going to be in these hands, they've got to be well trained hands. They've got to be experienced hands. How much does experience I'm I'm thinking, of course, of your having seen so much action.

General Sir Charles Guthrie2:30

Well, I think it is a a great help to have seen action and people if you are going to ask em to do really frightening things, it's good for em to know that you've probably done that too.

Presenter2:41

That you've been forged in fire, as you put it. Do you think it's essential to be a good general?

General Sir Charles Guthrie2:43

Yeah.

General Sir Charles Guthrie2:46

I think it is difficult not to have been forged in a fire. But, on the other hand, I don't think there is, as I say, any formula for this. If you look at history, look at the great generals of the Second World War Slim, Wavell, Alexander, Montgomery, and Allanbrook they were all quite different in the ways they produced results.

Presenter3:05

Uh I suspect you're not entirely comfortable with the observation, but it's often reported in perhaps every profile one reads of you that you've probably cut more throats literally than any other senior member of the armed forces. Well, I've seen that. I don't know where people get held

General Sir Charles Guthrie3:21

The better idea.

Presenter3:22

And there's an image of you in the jungle sneaking up behind people going

General Sir Charles Guthrie3:25

Well, I certainly have been in the jungle. I don't recall doing that.

Presenter3:29

You don't recall it at all.

General Sir Charles Guthrie3:30

Where

Presenter3:31

Ever.

General Sir Charles Guthrie3:32

Yeah, I've never cut anyone's fruit.

Presenter3:34

Not literally.

General Sir Charles Guthrie3:36

Not literally.

Presenter3:37

Okay, tell me about your first record.

General Sir Charles Guthrie3:39

Well, my first record is the chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Verdi's Nabuca, and I've chosen that because when I commanded the Welsh Guards they had a choir which had this as one of their standard pieces, and it reminds me of my regiment. And my regiment is enormously important for soldiers. It's our second family, really. And also, I remember that the Hebrew slaves wanted to escape from Nebuchadnezzar.

General Sir Charles Guthrie4:07

and I'll want to escape from his island as soon as I possibly can.

Speaker 44:18

So

Speaker 44:38

Oh the

Speaker 44:43

What a pain!

Speaker 44:46

God live in soul.

Presenter4:54

Yeah.

General Sir Charles Guthrie4:54

Uh Uh

Presenter4:55

Uh

General Sir Charles Guthrie4:55

Uh

Presenter5:02

The chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from Verdi's Nabucco, performed by the Ambrosian Opera Chorus with the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Riccardo Mutti.

Presenter5:11

Interestingly, Sir Charles, you don't have any great family military history, do you? Why did you decide that soldiering was for you?

General Sir Charles Guthrie5:19

I decided to go into the army because I wanted a bit of excitement. I was a very keen sportsman. I liked travel, and it seemed to me that the army would give me all these things I liked, and pay me for it.

Presenter5:31

But I wonder wh what brought about, as I say, your your your father he served in the war, but that wasn't his job, was it? He wasn't a soldier as a job.

General Sir Charles Guthrie5:38

No, it wasn't. But it was interesting. I think rough are like many people who served in the war and then went back to civilian life. They looked back upon Merwar as rough a special time, because they made special friends, and you do make special friends when times are tough. I don't know whether he really wanted me to go into the army, but when I told him I was going he has always been very supportive.

Presenter5:57

What did he do actually?

General Sir Charles Guthrie5:59

He taught at a university before the war. He worked a little bit for United Nations after the war.

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:06

and then he became a business man.

Presenter6:07

Hmm what about you in the war? Because you were what born in 1938 so you'd have been a little boy. Do you remember?

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:11

Right.

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:12

And I do remember seeing the sky of London bright red after a bombing raid. I can remember seeing after I was evacuated to Lincolnshire.

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:21

Aeroplanes criss crossing in the sky.

Presenter6:24

So do you think

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:24

I remember also there was a those are great occasions we used to disappear into a shelter at night when there was a bombing raid, which I found frightfully exciting.

Presenter6:32

Did but do you think all that fed into this ambition, this because that's part of the sense of adventure that it was exciting, that you were curious about it, not frightened of it?

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:41

Yes, I think that's right.

Presenter6:42

And then you went to uh to Harrow, where a contemporary has described you as quote a brave bugger who somehow managed never to ruffle feathers. Sounds a bit like a description for um Chief of the Defence Staff.

General Sir Charles Guthrie6:55

Well, I was a a a happy schoolboy in that I loved playing sport, but I didn't think I really extended myself intellectually, but I did extend myself on the rugby pitch.

Presenter7:05

But academic prowess not your thing, and it went on being like that at Sandhurst, I think. Again, if we're talking all the time about what makes a good general, where would academic intellect feature on

General Sir Charles Guthrie7:15

Well, it certainly is important. Military history doesn't repeat itself. If you try to fight the next war like the last one, you're almost certainly going to lose it. So you do have to adapt, but you have to study military history in depth.

General Sir Charles Guthrie7:30

And think about it.

Presenter7:31

Tell me about your second record.

General Sir Charles Guthrie7:33

My second record is a Spanish guitar work done by Rodrigo. I just like the Spanish guitar.

Presenter8:38

Part of the first movement of Rodrigo's Concieto de Aranthueth, played by José Maria Gallado del Rey with the National Orchestra of Spain, conducted by Rafael Frubeck de Bulgos. Seven years of regular army duty in the Welsh Guards, Sir Charles, and action in Aden. You were blown up, apparently, a few times, but not very effectively.

General Sir Charles Guthrie8:59

No, I I had some lucky escapes. Luckily the people who tried to blow me up were inefficient.

Presenter9:01

Yeah.

Presenter9:05

But how? What what happened?

General Sir Charles Guthrie9:06

Well, a Land Rover went over a mine, and uh we were all quite shaken.

General Sir Charles Guthrie9:12

And the other time somebody threw a grenade at me, but it was pretty it was pretty small beer.

Presenter9:17

But in the end what seems to be obvious I don't know reading about your your progression uh through through the different uh aspects of the army is that

Presenter9:26

The Welsh Guards and all despite that action didn't fulfil your ambition for excitement because eventually, after about seven years, you apply for the SAS.

General Sir Charles Guthrie9:34

Well, I I don't think that's quite right. I mean I had been to Aden but every time had come and I needed a change and I decided to

Speaker 49:41

You need more excitement, huh?

General Sir Charles Guthrie9:43

I wanted to, yes, to have some excitement, and I spent a very happy time.

Speaker 49:43

Yeah.

Speaker 49:48

Happy with them.

General Sir Charles Guthrie9:48

With them. Yes, because I made good friends, and I think the SAS is still the most remarkable organization. It hasn't changed all that much, the kind of people since it was formed.

Presenter10:00

Except that people now come out of it and write about it.

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:03

Well, that is true.

Presenter10:04

You regret that, you?

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:05

Yes, I do, really. I I I prefer people not to write about it.

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:10

Um some people do it for money, some people do it because of their egos. Very few people do it, I think, because they think that they're improving the history of the British Army.

Presenter10:19

So, what's it like? What do you learn if you're out there in the jungle? As you say, you may be leading them, but there's only four of you anyway.

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:27

Well, you learn a lot about yourself, what your limitations are. You learn a lot about the people you're with,'cause you're probably with them for weeks.

Presenter10:34

And I want to know about your limitations, yeah.

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:37

Well

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:38

Maybe one wasn't physically as tough as you thought you were. Maybe you were short-tempered some days. Maybe some of your patrol had irritating habits. But after weeks in the jungle get in your nerves. So you knew a lot about yourself.

Presenter10:52

So you know a lot of sharing a flat with them. What what's the thing that annoyed you most in the jungle about the other men you would

General Sir Charles Guthrie10:54

Yes it is, yes it is.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:02

And I had one.

Presenter11:02

Are I

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:03

of my patrol, who was a tremendous.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:06

Soldier and a great friend of mine.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:08

and he used to walk in front of me when we were going through the jungle.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:12

and every time he pushed a branch out of his way it came back and hit me in the face.

Presenter11:18

It's pretty basic that we know that on a country walk, you know.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:22

I know.

Presenter11:22

Did you tell him in the end?

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:22

Yeah.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:23

I told him daily.

Presenter11:27

Record number three.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:28

My next one is Karloff's Carmina Burana.

General Sir Charles Guthrie11:32

And I'd like this record because if I ever felt lethargic, if ever I find it difficult to get out of my hammock in the morning, I just play this.

Speaker 412:12

Don't let this part in some

Speaker 412:20

Pop is a

Speaker 412:23

It's a bit old to come see.

Speaker 412:28

Just been this

Speaker 412:30

Let's give up this

Speaker 412:33

No time to vote.

Presenter12:38

O Fortuna from Karl Orff's Carmine Burana, performed by the German Opera Chorus and Orchestra conducted by Eugen Jochum.

Presenter12:46

Well, now, Sir Charles, history has it that you were lashed to the desk in Whitehall in the nineteen eighties, um which as we've gathered was not quite up your street um and you escaped for a bit of action in the Pacific Ocean by telling a lie. Can this be true?

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:01

It is completely untrue.

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:03

What happened was that there was a group of islands in the South Pacific called the New Hebrides.

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:09

I went there.

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:11

Because one of the islands the island of the spiritual centre had declared

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:15

U D I, and I went out uh and commanded the British forces in the New Hebrides. Now it is true, but I did say I was going to the New Hebrides, and my boss then, the general I worked for, assumed I was going to Scotland.

Presenter13:31

When did you discover you'd gone a little further afield?

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:34

Well he he asked me if I when I was coming back, and I told him it was very difficult to get back from the New Hebrides, and he said, Don't be ridiculous and when I told him where the New Hebrides was, he began to understand. So six weeks later I came back, having recaptured the island of the Spirit of Santo.

Presenter13:53

And you'd won a medal. A badge of honor. Wh uh whose medal is that?

General Sir Charles Guthrie13:57

It used to be awarded a very great deal in Queen Victoria's day, but it's it's it's rough a relic from a past, I'm very proud to wear it.

Presenter14:06

So I I think you're the the only senior British officer to have such a medal as badge of honour. You're certainly the only senior British officer to have appeared on stage in an opera with Maria Callas.

General Sir Charles Guthrie14:17

Well, that's a long story. But in my sixties.

General Sir Charles Guthrie14:22

All the walk-on parts in Covent Garden, east most of them, were done by guardsmen from Chelsea and Wellington Barracks.

Presenter14:28

It's that discipline again, I think.

General Sir Charles Guthrie14:30

I don't know. I think it is always alleged that Queen Victoria had gone to the opera once, looked at the extras, and Fortrey looked a puny lot, and said, Why don't you use my guardsman?

General Sir Charles Guthrie14:39

But I did a season at Covent Garden. We were paid thirty shillings for an opera under three hours, and we immediately got double money if it went over three hours. And I

General Sir Charles Guthrie14:51

Was a shipwrecked sailor in Atello. I did many parts in Aida. Became a bit of a quick change artist there.

Presenter14:58

Or a slow change artist if you wanted to earn more than thirty shillings.

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:01

Yes, that could have been true. But the highlight of my opera career was appearing on a Royal Command performance.

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:10

With Maria Kallas and Tito Gobby.

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:13

And I'll never forget the first time Callus came off.

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:17

I went on.

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:19

Callas was absolutely exhausted, she'd given everything, and she used to collapse on a sofa in the wings and beflap with a towel rather like a boxer.

Speaker 215:24

The wing

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:28

I remember the soldier who was going on rather nervously with me, too, said My goodness, I hope you're not going to be like that when you come off, sir.

Presenter15:35

Anyway, that means we must have your next record. This is Tosca herself, isn't it?

General Sir Charles Guthrie15:39

Yes.

Presenter15:40

Maria Callis.

Presenter16:32

Maria Kallas, as Tosca singing the aria Vicidate from Act Two of Puccini's opera with the chorus and orchestra of La Scala Milan conducted by Victor de Sabata, and that was recorded in 1953. So now, General Sir Charles Guthrie, you're at the heart of power, shoulder to shoulder with the Prime Minister in times of conflict. Can I just ask you to give us a sense of place? Where do you meet at such times as the Kosovan crisis? Do you meet in the command bunker or do you go to Downing Street?

General Sir Charles Guthrie17:00

Sometimes he comes to the command bunker, but usually uh we have meetings in the command bunker, and then we go across to Dining Street.

Presenter17:09

And do you go via the tunnel?

General Sir Charles Guthrie17:11

Yes, there is a tunnel which I think is well known now, which links the Ministry of Defence with the other side of Whitehall.

Presenter17:18

So up you pop. And I'm what I'm really fascinated by is this crossing of the line from the military into the political. After all, you will know as a military man that you can't wage war without shedding blood. Now that's very difficult for the politician, isn't it?

General Sir Charles Guthrie17:34

Well

General Sir Charles Guthrie17:35

Is it more difficult for them than for us? I think

General Sir Charles Guthrie17:39

One of the problems, perhaps, which is greater to day than it was, is how few politicians have had any experiences of of war or the services, and it's very wrong for us to assume they know more than they do. And how can they?

Presenter17:55

No, quite. So you have to say to him, Look, I'm sorry, Prime Minister, but there there could be collateral damage here and you're just going to have to accept it.

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:01

And we think that's a very good example. If you're targeting something, it's my duty to tell.

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:09

The Prime Minister or the Secretary state what the risks are.

Presenter18:12

Mm-hmm.

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:13

And what the chances are of success?

Presenter18:15

And do you feel damaged professionally when things go wrong, like refugee trains are bombed or Chinese embassies?

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:22

I obviously

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:24

very, very much regret anything like that happening.

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:28

But you know, on something like a bombing campaign, I'm afraid accidents do happen. But be friction of war be confusion.

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:38

It's not a sort of precise science.

Presenter18:40

But is there is there a war that you would refuse to fight if you were asked if asked by a politician?

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:47

Well, I find it inconceivable that uh a democracy like the United Kingdom would get ourselves into this sort of

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:54

situation. And we are very conscious about

General Sir Charles Guthrie18:59

What a just war is, and we have legal advisers who we do consult regularly about what is.

General Sir Charles Guthrie19:07

possible and what is not.

Presenter19:08

But if you thought it was an unjust war, you would say no.

General Sir Charles Guthrie19:12

Yeah.

Presenter19:13

Record number five.

General Sir Charles Guthrie19:15

Well, my next record, which I think is quite suitable to have on a desert island.

General Sir Charles Guthrie19:20

It's the duet, the famous duet, from Bizet's The Pearl Fishes.

Speaker 419:30

The fo detong para flows.

Speaker 420:05

La Four Proser

Speaker 420:12

But I got it well.

Presenter20:16

You see Vjorling as Nadia and Robert Merrill as Zurga singing Au Fant du Temp Plessin from Act One of Bizet's The Pearlfishers with the R C A Victor Symphony Orchestra conducted by Renato Cellini.

Presenter20:27

Um the Army General apparently has a recruitment problem. There's a a Manning shortfall of of several thousand seven thousand some people say, ten thousand say others.

Presenter20:36

Many join up and then they leave or they go AWOL or whatever. What do you believe the problem to be? Why can't you hold on to these guys? And girls.

General Sir Charles Guthrie20:46

Well, I think th there is a problem about retaining people. At the moment our recruiting is fairly buoyant. But retention, I think, is a difficult problem. People are so busy.

Presenter20:57

But isn't it isn't it also because it is now so r far removed from mainstream life that it's just not attractive, that that these days, you know, young people enjoy s such great freedom socially and economically. Why should they come and shut themselves up with you and abide by your rules?

General Sir Charles Guthrie21:15

Well, I don't think it is shutting themselves off from society.

General Sir Charles Guthrie21:19

But it is absolutely true that fewer and fewer people in our country know about the services. Their fathers haven't served them, even their grandfathers haven't served on them, and we're not spread throughout the country like we used to be in the old days.

Presenter21:33

And you don't quite have the cachet.

General Sir Charles Guthrie21:36

That you had? Well, I'm not sure if that is right. The country is fascinated by the military. They watch extraordinary programmes on the television. Some programmes which I think are really rough of second rate. But they have huge audience ratings.

Presenter21:51

Sort of soldier soldier or whatever.

General Sir Charles Guthrie21:53

Well, I'm not naming programmes. But though they're fascinated, though they're very supportive, if ever the British forces get committed, the British public are right behind them. They don't necessarily want their children. Now I suspect that's probably because they don't know enough about it.

Presenter22:07

Yeah.

Presenter22:10

Is that is that all? Isn't it also because, of course, other things have been said about it and

General Sir Charles Guthrie22:11

But isn't it also a big

Presenter22:14

We haven't got time or space to go into more bullying and so on. But that, by the by, the the largest problem is surely this sense that there's a class structure. And as we know, Serving Major Eric Joyce said a few years ago that it the army was steeped in snobbery.

General Sir Charles Guthrie22:30

Well, he may have said that. Uh it didn't seem to have affected him very much. I mean they plucked him out. He was an ordinary soldier. They sent him to university, they commissioned him. So he doesn't seem to have been a victim of class. But we have to design ourselves not to administer ourselves and be a social experiment when times are good in peace. We have to design ourselves when time for times when we're really bad, when people are frightened. What makes them actually do things which are very dangerous, which we don't particularly want to do. And our system is actually very

Presenter23:05

And I'll see you.

General Sir Charles Guthrie23:08

Well proved. It hasn't let us down.

Presenter23:11

But presumably uh it's very worrying for you if there's a Manning shortfall, which there is, because uh you you must cross your fingers that someone like Saddam Hussein doesn't rise up when you're busy somewhere else in Sierra Leone or whatever. I mean that would really

General Sir Charles Guthrie23:24

Well we are certainly stretched at the moment, but as I said, the recruits are coming in. We have got to find ways of retaining them, and I hope that the number of commitments we have around the world will reduce so people can have more steady, stable family lives.

Presenter23:46

That's interesting then. So what you're saying is what they want in coming into the army i is to be nearer to their family more often, which is the opposite in a sense of what you wanted, because you wanted to get out there and have some adventure and some action and some excitement.

General Sir Charles Guthrie23:58

Well, it is it's one of those dilemmas. I mean services want to be used, they want to do exciting things, but they do also want time at home, time to recharge their batteries. But if you think in the last year we've been in Kosovo, Bosnia, East Timor, Sierra Leone and Cyprus, and I suspect I could go on.

Presenter24:21

Well, indeed you could. I mean, that's all part of a new kind of militarism, this this again, this desire to do good that this government has. I wonder how much that's your your influence?

General Sir Charles Guthrie24:34

Yeah.

Presenter24:34

Well I

General Sir Charles Guthrie24:34

I am absolutely sure that the Army has an important humanitarian role to play, and we can do things.

General Sir Charles Guthrie24:43

which other organizations can't do and we can get there quickly and do

Presenter24:48

Record number six.

General Sir Charles Guthrie24:50

Bovis is a complete change of tack.

General Sir Charles Guthrie24:53

Stevie Wonder, I just called to say I loved you. Now the reason I've chosen that is because I have been away from my family very often.

General Sir Charles Guthrie25:04

And the link of a telephone to our wives or to our loved ones is very important. I actually proposed to my wife from my command post and conducted part of my court trip on what we called the welfare telephone.

Speaker 425:20

I just oh

Speaker 425:22

Just saying.

Speaker 425:25

I love you.

Speaker 425:28

I just go.

Speaker 425:31

To say how much I give

Presenter25:34

Stevie Wonder, and I just called to say I loved you and memories of proposing on the Welfare Telephone. How how often did you get to go on the Welfare Telephone?

General Sir Charles Guthrie25:42

Well, I think in w when I was r uh

General Sir Charles Guthrie25:46

Talking to my fiancé, I think we were allowed two minutes a week. Nowadays it's gone up, and I think you're allowed twenty minutes. So you had to be pretty sharp on two minutes. The only disadvantage about it, I remember the telephone was that it was in rough a public place, and my radio operator was always with me, pretending not to listen to what I was saying.

Presenter26:07

Now, you've recently, Sir Charles, as everybody knows, won an important battle against the Treasury, although it has to be said you had its first lord on your side. You've stopped the cuts, you won a small increase, but is it enough? A predecessor of yours, Field Marshal Lord Brammell, you'll be only too aware, was quoted very recently saying the services are grossly underfunded. The whole strategy at the MOD is unravelling. Is he right?

General Sir Charles Guthrie26:32

Well, I certainly don't think it's unravelling, and we have got a strategic defence review, and we are still on course to make sure that we get the best forces we possibly can for the money which is available.

Presenter26:45

But if you are going to be ready to be the rapid reaction force that you want to be, and it's much more like that now, isn't it? It's going to the crisis. The the army is no longer about defending home territory.

General Sir Charles Guthrie26:56

Well, at the moment there's certainly no risk about our national survival, and we

General Sir Charles Guthrie27:02

talk about force projects and taking people quickly to Sierra Leone. That is very much what our business is. And that is what our

Presenter27:09

But it's what our own.

General Sir Charles Guthrie27:11

Well, it's expensive, it's high-tech, but also people are pretty expensive too now. So we we we do have a funding problem. All I can say is that after the l last budgetary rounds which we've just been through, things are better, and we've got a we've got some growth in our programme. But I'm not saying but I wouldn't want more, and I'm not sh saying but I didn't say that to the Chancellor.

Presenter27:33

Let me ask you this. Do you envisage a time when Britain won't need an army? And I ask that because of

Presenter27:40

People's discomfiture and there is more and more of it. It does seem that the level of discomfort rises as society goes on. So that not only do you have people not liking the bombing of Kosovo or Bosnia, they didn't like some people the bombing of Iraq, or before that Tripoli, or before that, the Falklands and the sinking of the Belgrana. You have a significant body of people who don't think we should be doing it, that it's not what civilized people do.

General Sir Charles Guthrie27:59

Boop.

General Sir Charles Guthrie28:07

Well

General Sir Charles Guthrie28:08

Anyone who likes war must be m raving mad. But the nature of man is, and the nature of the world is, but we still live in a very dangerous place. And what happens the other side of the world now affects the United Kingdom in a way which it didn't. Now you can turn a blind eye, of course you can, but Edmund Burke

General Sir Charles Guthrie28:30

You know, for good man does nothing, evil triumphs. Do you want that?

General Sir Charles Guthrie28:36

I don't think we want that, and I think the great majority of people don't want that either.

Presenter28:42

Record number seven.

General Sir Charles Guthrie28:44

My next record.

General Sir Charles Guthrie28:46

Is really because I spent two years in my seventies in Berlin and it's Lisa Minelli singing cabaret.

Speaker 428:55

What good is sitting alone in your room, come hear the music play

General Sir Charles Guthrie29:02

Yeah.

Speaker 429:04

Life is a cavalry old chum

Speaker 429:08

Come to the Caboiray.

Speaker 429:13

Down the knitting, the book and the broom, It's time for a holiday.

Presenter29:22

Liza Minelli singing cabaret from the original soundtrack of the film. May I ask you, Sir Charles, how important in your professional career your your faith is and has been? Because uh it's it's well in the public domain that you converted to Roman Catholicism ten years or so ago.

Presenter29:39

Prayed at Lourdes during the Kosovo conflict.

General Sir Charles Guthrie29:42

Well, I mean, it's important to me. I became a Catholic. It seemed the right thing to do. I didn't become a Catholic because I was a fellow of the Church of England, or because my wife was a Catholic.

General Sir Charles Guthrie29:52

It just seemed right, I can't tell you quite why.

Presenter29:55

But do you need it to religion more than that?

General Sir Charles Guthrie29:55

I need interreligious.

General Sir Charles Guthrie29:57

I think religion is a help.

General Sir Charles Guthrie29:59

It doesn't mean to say I spend my whole time on my knees or

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:03

I spend my whole time in confession, but it does mean

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:07

A lot.

Presenter30:08

So it helps you, does it, in those moments of making those decisions?

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:11

I hope it does.

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:14

Religion's a bit of a mystery.

Presenter30:16

Will you get down on your knees on your desert island and pray for deliverance, or are you too practical? Do you know that God would expect you to rely on yourself?

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:23

I've certainly been trained on survival techniques, and I've lived in the desert and I've lived in a jungle.

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:29

I don't think I'll strangle rabbits or chase monkeys, because I always found when I did that I worked up quite an appetite doing it. It's much easier to go for things which can't get away, like plants.

Presenter30:40

In a sense, of course, you're about to cast yourself away because uh you're retiring early next year. What are you most looking forward?

Presenter30:49

To not

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:50

Well, I think I will

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:52

not miss the endless amount of reading and work I take home.

General Sir Charles Guthrie30:58

I suppose I shall miss the excitement of some of the decisions which are being made. But I've got lots of other things to do. I'm not going to hang around and give my

General Sir Charles Guthrie31:08

Successor Endless Advice

Presenter31:10

You won't be making comments about the defence budget.

General Sir Charles Guthrie31:13

Occasionally, I suspect, but I probably won't be able to resist.

Presenter31:16

Last record.

General Sir Charles Guthrie31:17

And my last record is from a magic flute.

General Sir Charles Guthrie31:21

It's an extraordinary opera.

General Sir Charles Guthrie31:23

Amazing story. Quite a lot of it pretty good rubbish, I think.

General Sir Charles Guthrie31:27

But it is about good overcoming evil, and it's got some marvellous music.

Speaker 431:45

Die Fugel Fengerbitt Icher, Ich Fugel Fengerbitt by All the Jung.

Speaker 431:57

Im Gansen Land Weiss meet Dimlogie, Unde Biech of Steifer Tuferstein, and the Lord of the Lord.

Presenter32:28

Herman Pray as Papageno, singing Der Fogelfinger binich Ja, from Act one of Mozart's Magic Flute with the Vienna Philharmonic, conducted by Sir George Schulte. Now, if you could only take one of those eight records, one only, after getting it down to the eight.

General Sir Charles Guthrie32:42

I would go back to Verdi and Nabuka.

Presenter32:46

And your book. You get I'm sure you know the Bible and and Shakespeare.

General Sir Charles Guthrie32:50

The Duke of Wellington is a hero of mine, and Lady Longford wrote the most marvellous biography about him.

General Sir Charles Guthrie32:58

and I would take Volume one.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:00

which are the years of his sword.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:02

Wellington was an extraordinary man. I'm not quite sure how he survived, because he was fired at point blank. He never coveted popularity. In fact, he was rather annoyed when people cheered him.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:14

and he cared for his men's lives.

Presenter33:18

What about your luxury?

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:19

For my luxury may seem rather a strange one to you.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:22

But when I was young I was very keen on surfing.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:26

I never became frightfully good at it.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:28

But what I'd like to take is an eight foot six inches mini Malibu surfboard with a single fin. I've been researched this pink.

Presenter33:34

You researched this, I think.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:37

But I actually could become quite good. If the surf was not bare, I could use it as a windbreak.

Presenter33:43

But you promise not to escape on it.

Presenter33:45

That's the deal.

General Sir Charles Guthrie33:46

Well, I think that might be quite difficult to de agree with. They're not going to keep me there a moment longer than I have to stay.

Presenter33:53

Tactician to the end, General Sir Charles Guthrie, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

General Sir Charles Guthrie34:00

Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 234:08

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.