Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP

Speaker 20:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 20:08

The programme was originally broadcast in the year two thousand, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My castaway this week is a politician. Until the last election he'd enjoyed a brilliant career. The son of a Spanish intellectual father and a Scottish mother, he'd won a scholarship to Cambridge, got a first, become a Conservative MP and, in a series of important government positions, the darling of the right. Then he lost his seat in what's been described as the most memorable, possibly, moment of the last election.

Presenter0:55

Now he's back in Parliament, apparently an altogether more thoughtful sort of chap, who enjoys looking back at his Spanish roots, has embraced social liberalism and admitted to gay experiences in his youth. We politicians, he said, have just got to be a bit more normal. He is Michael Portillo. I presume, Michael, that being out of politics has given birth to all of that feeling. Stripped of the trappings of office and back on the number eight bus, as you've put it.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP1:21

It is a very abnormal life being in politics, and particularly being in government, and whether you wish to or not, you do become a bit separated from normal existence.

Presenter1:29

But it's more than that in the you sound as if you've been chastened by an experience.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP1:32

Well, I I think I was, of course. I was defeated. My ministerial career and my parliamentary career came to an end at the same moment. Although I think

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP1:40

Even in the moment that it happened, I had a sort of feeling that this wasn't a bad thing to be happening to me. Yeah, that um, you know, a bit of adversity.

Speaker 41:45

Uh

Presenter1:45

Really?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP1:49

A bit of grit in the oyster was uh was not going to be a problem.

Presenter1:52

Even in that moment of that it was an enormous public humiliation. Because of course you know before the returning officer announces it, so you know that you're going to stand there on the platform with the eyes of the nation on you.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP2:04

I didn't feel exactly humiliated, because, you know, it is the right of people in a democracy to get rid of their members of parliament. But I did feel a sort of sense of relief yes, because, you know, there was in prospect

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP2:16

Leadership elections in the Conservative Party, and a great deal of difficulty and nastiness.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP2:23

No, I was quite pleased that my path was going to be different.

Presenter2:28

But I don't understand why you were pleased in that moment, because although obviously the Tories were going to lose the election, I think everybody knew that before it you were poised to take you were the natural heir to the party leadership. Why why weren't you desperately disappointed?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP2:42

Now, I'm not saying I was pleased. I'm not saying I was saying I was jumping up and down. You could see from what was going on on the television that it was a very difficult moment for me. I'm saying that even then I had a sort of feeling

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP2:54

that it was going to be a relief to do something else. And I very often thought after that, you know, if I if I went to the end of my life, if I went to my death bed, and I looked back and I thought I've only ever done one thing in my life which has been in politics, what a shame that would be

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP3:08

And I did have some other useful experiences.

Presenter3:08

And I did have some.

Presenter3:10

The power of positive thought kicked in quite quickly. What it also gave you the opportunity to to do, which of course is what you've attempted to do, is to get rid of that arrogant image, the image of being the unacceptable face of the right. I mean, is that also something you thought in the moment? Right, now I can clear the decks.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP3:29

I'm not sure if I've formulated the thought quite like that, but it it is certainly the case that every time you appear.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP3:35

In an interview about politics, anyway, you are like the prisoner in the dock. And maybe it's not terribly surprising that you don't always give a very friendly or forthcoming sort of impression of yourself. And while I was out, I was able firstly to choose what it was I was going to communicate about. I could write about architecture or about art or about walks in Spain. And of course, that enabled me to present different aspects of myself. I was choosing myself what I was going to say about myself.

Presenter4:00

But then you could also return, which is what you have done, like a prisoner who served his time, as a reformed character, present a new face, you know, find salvation.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP4:11

Yes. I mean, you know, these processes are not total. I'm sure I still carry a lot of baggage from the past. But what I think is terribly important is that people should know that their politicians are not just politicians, that that they are real people, they have other interests. I think there would be nothing worse, and in a way nothing more corrupting.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP4:30

than if one thought it's got to be politics or nothing.

Presenter4:33

Tell me about your first record.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP4:36

Well, we're going to hear mainly classical music today, but uh driving in the car or whatever I I like to hear many other things as well. And uh this is La Isla Bonita by Madonna. It means the beautiful island. I hope I'll be on a beautiful island, but if it's an ugly one I shall play this and cheer up.

Speaker 44:50

Pray said the days were less, they went so fast, tropical, island freeze, all of nature wild and free.

Speaker 44:59

Where I go to be

Speaker 45:01

La isla bonita and win roll

Speaker 45:06

Someone said so high, ring through my ear, see my eyes, the Spanish melodies

Presenter5:20

Madonna singing La Isla Bonita, beautiful island, which yours may not be. You never know, Michael. But you've done.

Presenter5:27

All these other things, as you say, you've done broadcasting radio, television, you've done some writing. Does anything rival politics for you, or is it your first love?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP5:36

Politics is the stage, and uh many of the other things I've done feel like I'm in the wings, or maybe I'm the critic in the audience. Also, although I told you that I

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP5:46

dealt with defeat, I think, reasonably well. I didn't want my career to end in that defeat. I wanted to pick myself up again and back I came.

Presenter5:55

And yet you were politically a very late developer. You weren't active in the Cambridge Union, you you weren't a member of any association, you didn't seem to have any political affiliations early on.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP6:06

My father brought politics into the house. My father was a Spanish refugee, and I was very aware of the effect of politics on his life. And he was quite politically committed in British terms as well. He he was a Labour supporter, and my mother was a Labour supporter in those days.

Presenter6:21

And you had Harold Wil Harold Wilson on your bed.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP6:21

And you had

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP6:24

Yes, I I was um I was mesmerized by Harold Wilson. I thought he was immensely charismatic and pragmatic in the days when pragmatism was meant to be a very good thing. Yes, I was quite mesmerized and and quite active in my school days. And then in university days I I lost interest. But shortly after university the interest came back again.

Presenter6:42

But why did it happen? It's very interesting because I know that at Cambridge you were taught by Maurice Cowling, who was kind of very right wing, said to be a guru of Margaret Thatcher. Was it he who made this shift for you?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP6:48

Who's a cut?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP6:55

Morris was a great influence upon me, but I don't think particularly a political influence. But during the period that I was at university I was aware that I was becoming more and more interested in conservative things. This was this was the period of the miners' strike and so on.

Presenter7:08

Because I mean we have to touch in on the fact that of course as you say your father was a refugee. He he had fought well not fought against Franco, but he'd been very active about uh against Franco, hadn't he in the Spanish

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP7:18

Yeah, no, you could say he fought against Franco.

Presenter7:20

But he didn't carry a gun.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP7:21

That's right. My father was very worried of carrying a gun because his brothers, six of his brothers, were fighting on the other side, and he was in terror that he would kill one of his brothers. Actually, I think he was in terror of killing anybody, because he he didn't believe in killing. So he didn't carry a gun, but he was there at the front running messages and so on.

Presenter7:39

So he was a a Socialist and, from what you say, a natural pacifist, whose son turned out to be a Tory and pro capital punishment. That must have saddened him.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP7:49

Well, I don't know about that. By the way, I was pro capital punishment for a while. It's not something I've supported in recent years. I don't know whether he was sand and he was he was interested in politics and he was interested in democracy.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP8:02

He above all valued the ability of people to express different points of view.

Presenter8:05

But how did he react when he saw you become a favourite of misses Thatcherer and the darling of the right, as I said?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP8:12

Well, I think he was probably quite amused about it. This may strike you as very odd. I think you're amused. No, no, I think I'm used. I.

Presenter8:15

It's very odd.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP8:18

We very rarely discussed it. We are we are a s a an interesting family, maybe. We are very, very close to each other. We see each other a lot, but we never intrude on each other's private lives. And uh even today my family and I rarely discuss politics, even though we are not politically the same thing. I'm I'm teased a bit. I'm the youngest brother, so I'm still way down there at the bottom of the pecking order and teased by the others.

Presenter8:40

Next record.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP8:41

This is Nights in the Gardens of Spain. This is by Spanish composer Falia. This was a great favorite of my father. And later, when I came to make a television programme about my father, this was the theme music in the television programme.

Presenter9:53

Part of the Gardens of the Sierra de Cordoba, the third movement of Fire's Nights in the Gardens of Spain, performed by Alicia de la Rocha, with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Rafael Frubeck de Burgos.

Presenter10:05

I think, what a mouthful.

Speaker 410:07

Well done.

Presenter10:07

I think, Michael, that people would suppose, I think, presume from your natural demeanour that you had a very privileged upbringing, but indeed you were very much bottom of the hill in Harrow, weren't you? As opposed to the school on the top.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP10:20

Yes, I I went to Harrow County Grammar School, a state grammar school. My father was then uh a translator, not not making a lot of money. My mother a a school teacher. We didn't have a car. We took our holidays in the Isle of Wight every year.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP10:33

We were very happy, I think that's the important thing.

Presenter10:35

And you were usually top of the class at school, and but you were also very bossy, is that right?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP10:41

Well, I competed with a number of other people to be top of the the school. Um and Bossy, I competed with a number of people to be Bossy as well, I think.

Presenter10:50

Someone said you were uh o on occasions rather like the gaffer in our Fidese and Pet.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP10:55

Well, I think when you get into public life people try and think of the most unkind thing they can say in memory of you.

Presenter11:00

I think it's quite a fond thing to say. Um but you're obviously a bit of a performer. You were in a Ribena ad and I've seen this ad. I mean it's it's it's really rather charming, but it's it's the voiceover, you know, young limbs, straight and true, strong bones, good teeth, you know

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP11:14

Well, I certainly wasn't responsible for the voiceover. For a while, when I was really very young, eight or nine, I I tried out for a number of parts in commercials and films and so on. I was only successful in one, the Raibena ad. And after a while my mother said to me, You know, That's enough of going to all these auditions and interviews, it's wasting time. Let's get on with schooling.

Presenter11:33

Mm. And then you did and you got a scholarship to Cambridge uh to read history.

Presenter11:38

Did you move smoothly into that, or did you feel rather awkward at first? And did you were you socially inept, I think is really what I'm asking.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP11:46

I think I probably was fairly socially inept. I look back on the way I dressed, for example, with absolute horror. But it why, what did you dress in?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP11:54

I dressed in sort of loud checks and huge shoes, and I had hair down to my shoulders, of course, as so many people did. Um so yes, I was awkward. On the other hand, you know, even in those days there were lots of boys from State schools, so I was hardly like a you know, a fish out of water, it wasn't like that.

Presenter12:12

And as you say, you moved slowly to the right politically during the time that you were there.

Presenter12:17

You would have voted, what, for the first time in the 74 elections, probably? How did you vote?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP12:21

Yes. I voted Conservative in both the seventy four elections, although I voted Labour in the council elections because one of my tutors was a Labour candidate.

Presenter12:31

Is that the only time you've ever voted Labour?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP12:33

Yes, yes, Scout Summit.

Presenter12:36

And by the next election, of course seventy nine you were at the heart of it. You were briefing Mrs. T on the morning newspapers, and your political career had begun, really.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP12:43

Yes, I I went into the Conservative Research Department in nineteen seventy six, and eventually the Callaghan government fell in seventy nine. There was an election and I briefed misses Thatcher during that election and then had the excitement of seeing her take over.

Presenter12:55

You'd have been very young, what twenty-six I think you'd have been.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP12:58

Uh maybe maybe even maybe even twenty-five, yeah.

Presenter13:00

Yeah, yes. But really, you were absolutely at the heart of it. Weren't you terrified of her?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP13:05

Well, I was in awe of meeting all these people. I mean, the first Member of Parliament I ever met, I was in awe of.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP13:11

The job I had to do was to tell her the bad news in the newspapers each morning so that she could prepare herself for her press conference, and after a while I found out the thing to do was

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP13:22

Not to annoy her if one possibly could, but on the other hand, if she did react to something in the newspapers, let her blow her top, let her get it out of her system. There was no fear that she would actually do that in the press conference. And I remember I learnt then for the first time that even people near the top of politics need a lot of support. She once said to me, you know, You're battering me, you do nothing but batter me every morning. Why don't you give me some encouragement? And uh I do wish people around those who are near the top of politics would remember that sometimes. We don't just need battering, we sometimes need a bit of support as well.

Presenter13:52

But di did you feel then that she spotted you?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP13:56

Uh no, at the time I was one of a number of researchers I I performed competently, but I don't think particularly outstanding.

Presenter14:01

But you felt the bars, you got the bug.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP14:04

Yes, I felt the buzz, and after a while I thought, I would like to try my hand at this.

Presenter14:09

And indeed you did. Record number three.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP14:12

This takes me back to the 60s, to when I was still at school. It's cream. The song is called Badge, and it reminds me of.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP14:21

My mesmerized state with Harold Wilson and my concern about the Vietnam War and some terrific parties.

Speaker 414:27

Cut down.

Speaker 414:30

Just before that we could go out and die.

Speaker 414:42

Yeah, we love them.

Presenter14:54

Cream, in other words, Eric Clapton in one of his earlier incarnations, and badge. You're no stranger, Michael, to the public humiliation of politicians, and it hasn't always been you, because weren't you weren't you the person who spirited away Cecil Parkinson from that nineteen eighty three Blackpool Conference when the Sarah Keys affair?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP15:12

Yes, you've obviously been studying the old videotapes. Yes, I I I was working for Cecil then and whisked him away from Blackpool.

Presenter15:18

And of course, Spoolon Seven Years, you saw a lot of it as Margaret Thatcher.

Presenter15:23

finally met her demise, really. You were it was a very dramatic night, that, wasn't it? You you were, I think, in the vanguard of trying to persuade her to stay, weren't you?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP15:33

Yes. I went to see her. She was she was in a quite a tearful state, and I tried to persuade her to stay on, and she said to me, you know, why should I why should I try to stay on?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP15:44

And I said, Because actually, you haven't conducted an election campaign. There are only three hundred and something MPs. You could speak to every single one of them. You could ring them up on the phone. You could look them in the eye and say, You tell me you're not going to vote for me. But but but I was a a middle-ranking minister at the time, and during that interview I was alone with her, trying to persuade her to stay on. I kept thinking, Where is the person who really ought to be here persuading the Prime Minister to stay on? It wasn't anyone in particular. It just didn't seem to me that at my

Speaker 416:06

Who was that?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP16:10

Tender age that it was it just felt very odd that I was in the position of trying to persuade the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to stay in her job.

Presenter16:18

But the heavyweights had already been in and told her she shouldn't.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP16:21

That's right, they'd all trooped in and said it was over. I didn't agree.

Presenter16:25

Were you you've talked a lot about being Spanish and being very emotional. Were you very emotional that night?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP16:31

Yes, I am very emotional and I think I was that night too. I went home and I woke uh woke Caroline up, my wife, and she, who was not very political at all, said, Oh dear she said, Now I have to start worrying about the country. I thought that was quite an interesting summary. I rather agreed.

Presenter16:45

But it didn't stop you,'cause I suppose politicians always have to be pragmatic, but the following year you were in government with Michael Heseltine, misses Thatcher's uh art enemy, dismantling the poll tax, her pet policy. So on you went, Rony.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP16:58

Yes. Th I thought that was a strange sort of cruelty that I was put working with Michael Heseltine. But actually we got on phenomenally well. I mean, my view of what it's worth is that misses Thatcher would in some way or other have dismantled the Poltax too.

Presenter17:12

I could number four.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP17:14

This emphasises my emotional nature, my sentimentality, it's Madam Butterfly.

Speaker 417:26

Yeah.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP17:31

Uh

Speaker 417:38

Saito domestic original

Presenter18:08

Mirella Freini as Madame Butterfly, and Luciano Pavarotti as Pinkerton, in Act One of Puccini's opera, with the Vienna Philemonic conducted by Herbert von Carrion.

Presenter18:18

Michael Portillo, loyalty you've played along the line as one of your strong cards. You talked on television about your Castilian concern for dignity and honor. Why didn't that stop you plotting to challenge John Major's leadership in the mid nineties?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP18:34

I I did not so plot, and when it came to John Major standing aside, or rather contesting the leadership himself, I didn't stand as a candidate.

Presenter18:43

No, no, but you'd set up a campaign headquarters and had these forty telephone lines in or someone had on your behalf and you would have known about it.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP18:50

I was not going to contest the leadership with John Major. I would never have done that. I thought there was a pretty good chance there would be a second round, and I was ready for that. I I made no bones about that.

Speaker 218:59

I think

Speaker 219:00

Yeah.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:00

But but John Major was, in my view, entitled to the leadership and entitled to my support and had it. But if he hadn't made it through to the second round, I would have been a candidate.

Presenter19:10

And of course, therefore political commentators, because they'll get you every which way, have said since, therefore you're yellow, that you let John Redwood go in and do the

Presenter19:17

the difficult bit, and that you were were sort of standing back.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:21

Well, I just didn't see that I had any

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:24

justification, any moral platform on which I could stand against John Major. I'd been a member of his Cabinet, so, you know, whatever our shortcomings, they were our shortcomings in common. I couldn't possibly stand against John Major.

Presenter19:34

So you would never stand against an incumbent leader.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:38

If I was part of his team, certainly not.

Presenter19:40

But if he were tried and tested and failed, you might.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:45

I think you're trying to get at something and uh and I've actually I find the question in a way demeaning.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:51

If you're referring to present circumstances, I am.

Presenter19:52

I am yes.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP19:55

I am part of a team, and we are going to be an increasingly strong team, and that is all there is to say about it.

Presenter20:00

Hm. But d do you really believe the Tories will win the next election?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP20:05

As Montgomery said to his staff officers, any staff officer who doesn't believe in victory should be fired, and I think that is exactly the right principle. We all believe in victory.

Presenter20:12

Yes, but I mean, the game plan is surely it would be surprising if it weren't a kind of game plan that if you were to lose the next election you would be in a position to replace William Hague. You would want to.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP20:23

Well, I will look you in the eyes, and I will tell you that that is not in my mind at all. I do not spend any time thinking about such things.

Presenter20:32

So rumours that you're playing a long, subtle and complicated game are not true.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP20:38

There's only one person who knows me thoroughly, and that's me, and I know that that is not in my mind.

Presenter20:43

How uh delighted you must be quite delighted uh to learn and he's let it be known that you're the only conservative that Tony Blair rates.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP20:51

I didn't know that. And I've

Presenter20:54

Well, there's a sting in the tail, I have to say.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP20:55

I was going to say, I don't believe anything else that Tony Blair says, so why should I believe that?

Presenter21:00

Apparently, it's because you've demonstrated, I quote, demonstrated the ability to reinvent yourself, which

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP21:06

Well, as as I say, I would take everything that the Prime Minister says with a pinch of salt, including that.

Presenter21:11

You are actually, interestingly, exactly the same age, aren't you?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP21:14

Yes, we're born in the same uh month of the same year.

Presenter21:17

Well, there may be something in that, who knows? Let's have your record number five.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP21:21

I've always been a huge admirer of creative people, and uh this is a friend of mine, Linda Nicholson, playing the forte piano in one of Mozart's violin sonatas.

Presenter22:29

Part of the third movement of Mozart's violin sonata number twenty three in D major, K three O six, performed by Hiro Kurosaki, with Linda Nicholson playing the forte piano.

Presenter22:40

So Michael, it was a huge decision last year to tell an interviewer that you had a a gay past. Who did you discuss it with before you decided to reveal this?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP22:53

I think only with myself. I just took a decision that the next time somebody asked me one of these impertinent questions, I was just going to tell them the s the truth, just answer them.

Presenter23:01

She must have talked to Caroline about it.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP23:03

No, I mean obviously Karen knew um all all about the the facts of the matter, but actually I I I didn't discuss it with her. I'm sure I should have done, on reflection.

Presenter23:12

She must have been terribly shocked. I mean, she's a professional woman in her own right, and it must have been

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP23:15

Well, the press attention that we received was really horrible. Of course, I didn't predict the circumstances in which it was going to come out. It came out at the time when the Kensington and Chelsea seat had become vacant. And I had rather naively imagined that, since I wasn't then a figure in public life, that it wasn't going to arouse that sort of attention. And indeed, I'm slightly disappointed that it did arouse that much attention, because I thought somehow the world had moved on.

Presenter23:40

Did you really?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP23:40

Yeah.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP23:41

I did, yes. I really think that, you know, to

Presenter23:42

It's a bit naïve though. You know that newspapers would go searching for former lovers or they'd come out of the woodwork. I mean, it always gets nasty, messy, doesn't it?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP23:51

Yeah, nonetheless, I mean it was it was very nasty at the time. Nonetheless I'm absolutely pleased that that I did it. I'd I'd much rather have it out.

Presenter23:59

Why? Why did you choose that moment? Because you say you you thought

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP24:02

No, I didn't choose the moment because I gave the interview at one time and it was published several months later, so I didn't choose the moment.

Presenter24:04

Yeah.

Presenter24:09

So was it was it a case of mi of taking a brave decision then to come out with that, or was it a case of actually wanting to clear the decks, make a brand new start?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP24:19

Both. But uh

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP24:21

As I say, I really thought the world was now sort of grown up enough to take that sort of thing in its stride.

Presenter24:27

You say that, but then of course what's happened as a result is that you get accused of being a hypocrite because you continue to vote against the admission of of practising gays into the armed forces.

Presenter24:38

If we've moved on, why don't you move on the whole hog?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP24:42

Well, when I was running the armed services, my focus was what is right for the armed services. I may have been right, I may have been wrong, but the advice I received, and I thought it was advice that I could well understand and accept, was that if you were going to get camaraderie between people and absolute trust, then there couldn't also be the possibility of sexual relations between the people who are fighting alongside each other. Now

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:05

The world is constantly moving on and that that decision has been reviewed. But I think that was a reasonable view at the time.

Presenter25:06

That is

Presenter25:09

Would you review that decision now?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:13

Uh

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:14

I might well I might well another three or four years have passed, and attitudes do change.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:19

But I am happy with the decision I took at the time. I think it was a well based decision.

Presenter25:23

So I don't qu they quite understand. I mean, there is a contradiction there, isn't there? If a man with a homosexual isn't there? If a man with a homosexual past can be Secretary of State for Defence, why can't such a man be a member of the Army a regular soldier?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:27

A man with a huge

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:36

Because the Secretary of State for Defense doesn't stand in a trench next next to other men.

Presenter25:40

Is that what it's all about?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:41

Yeah.

Presenter25:41

Yeah.

Presenter25:42

It's not rather sad.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:44

No, I don't know.

Presenter25:45

That is going to be c overcome by a sexual urge standing in a trend.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP25:48

No, no. It is a matter of absolute trust between people serving alongside each other, and that means there can't be any special relationships. There has to be the certainty that one man is going to react in defence of another man, in support of another man, without any extraneous factors at all.

Presenter26:05

You'll be upsetting Peter Tatchell again, because he will say why can't you trust a homosexual as much as you can trust a heterosexual?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP26:12

Well, but I mean this problem arises with heterosexuals as well. I mean it is it is a big problem on ships, for example, if there are relations between men and women on ships, and relations between men and women on ships are banned.

Presenter26:23

Yes. But it is time all these rules were done away with, isn't it? We have moved on, haven't we? As you

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP26:28

Well, we may have moved on, but I I don't think we've moved on to say that um people serving alongside each other should be having sex with each other.

Presenter26:36

Record number six.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP26:37

Record number six is the Lindsay String Quartet playing one of Beethoven's string quartets. Carolyn and I very often go down to hear a weekend of string quartets at Taunton, and the Lindsays play with fantastic commitment.

Presenter27:49

The second movement of Beethoven's String Quartet, number thirteen, in B-flat, opus one three O, played by the Lindsay String Quartet. How would you sum up then, Michael, how you've changed since you lost that Enfield seat in ninety seven? What's different about Michael Portillo, aged forty seven, from Michael Portillo, aged, what, nearly forty-four, I think you were, at the time?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:10

Maybe I'm uh a more rounded person. Maybe I'm more prepared to discuss all the ways in which I regard myself as a rounded person.

Presenter28:17

But people talk about you being two completely different people.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:18

I raise you

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:21

Well, I don't think people who know me say that.

Presenter28:24

But certainly your public image is completely different.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:25

Yeah, no, I think the pub I think the public image probably is different.

Presenter28:28

But you wanted that to happen, as we've discussed. You wanted to get rid of that kind of belly cose.

Presenter28:33

Slightly belligerent, arrogant.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:36

I suppose many people in public life have the same thing. If they're perceived as one thing but they regard themselves as something different, naturally they want to correct things towards what they regard as as what they really are.

Presenter28:46

But you're not saying the former image was all in the perception. There must have been some truth in it.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:51

I may have appeared an arrogant person, but actually, I've always been someone with many.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP28:56

with many self doubts. Um I've often been a very nervous person about many of the things that I've had to do. I may look arrogant when my face is in repose, but that doesn't mean that is what is in the inner person.

Presenter29:07

Do you think the Harrogans was a kind of shell, then?

Presenter29:10

or the apparent arrogance.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP29:12

Uh maybe. I mean, maybe I haven't watched myself on television enough to to to see it.

Presenter29:18

Hm. So people will say then, therefore you're I suppose your kindly critics would say you're a canny politician who's now moulding himself to the Times, you know, bit

Presenter29:27

bit bit well, certainly not illiberal any more, if that's how you're perceived then. Um from everything you've said even today, one can think you know you're much more liberal minded. You're moulding yourself to suit. That's fair.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP29:39

I think I've always been liberal minded. I've certainly always been an economic liberal, that is to say. I believe people should be

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP29:45

Free to create wealth, and that to me has always gone hand in hand with social liberalism.

Presenter29:53

You said something interesting a few months ago. You said, I feel less vulnerable than I used to. What do you mean by that?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP30:00

I mean by that.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP30:02

that if you've been through difficulty and adversity, and you know you can get through it, then you know that you can get through it again and also having spent some some time out of politics,

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP30:13

I don't believe that politics is life.

Presenter30:15

So would I be right? I don't put words into your mouth, but what you're really saying is I've cleared the decks, skeletons out of cupboards, I've got everything to play for, and not a lot to lose. So, hey, life ain't bad.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP30:26

That's not a bad summary.

Presenter30:29

Number seven.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP30:31

I I grew up with my mother playing Sebalius on the record player, and uh Sebalius will always remind me of my mother who is a

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP30:38

A wonderful, energetic woman, and still hell and hearty at eighty one.

Presenter31:32

NIJEL KENNEDY playing part of the second movement of Sibelius Violin Concerto in D minor, opus forty seven, with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Simon Rattle.

Presenter31:42

Um, I wouldn't think you really would like to go to this desert island, would you, Michael? Bit bleak. Been there, really. Been in wilderness.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP31:49

I don't like being alone at all. I need company.

Presenter31:51

But could you hack it in the practical sense, do you think? Could you knock up the shelter and strangle a few rabbits?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP31:58

I think I might be hungry until I learnt the rabbit-catching technique. I could probably knock up the shelter. I'm a sort of semi-practical person.

Presenter32:05

But survival.

Presenter32:07

I mean, of course.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP32:07

I have a pretty strong survival instinct, so I hope to

Presenter32:09

Beep.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP32:10

I hope it would play well for me.

Presenter32:14

Last record.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP32:15

This is uh a Wagner piece. It's Tristan and Isolde, and uh this reminds me that uh Carol and I drove down to Wales in I think nineteen seventy seven to hear Reginald Goodall conducting Tristan and Isolde.

Speaker 432:29

You stood.

Speaker 432:31

Oh my head.

Speaker 432:35

Yeah.

Speaker 432:36

This is crazy.

Presenter33:25

John Mitchenson as Tristan, and Linda Esther Gray as Isolda, in their love duet from Act Two of Wagner's Opera with the orchestra of the Welsh National Opera conducted by Sir Reginald Goodall.

Presenter33:36

If you could only take one of those eight records, Michael, which one would you take?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP33:40

Butterfly.

Presenter33:41

touches you where it um means something.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP33:44

Yes, and I I have a real love of opera, the the the full experience, voice, orchestra, words, the whole thing.

Presenter33:51

What about your book as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP33:53

I'm going for a long book, I can take Proust a la recherche du tent perdu.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP33:58

I've read the first thousand pages several times, and now is the moment on this desert island to get to grips with it and finish it.

Presenter34:04

And your luxury.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP34:05

Uh I want to write, so I'm going to take a solar-powered laptop computer and see if I've got a novel in me.

Presenter34:11

What will it be about, do you know?

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP34:12

I've no idea. But w when I've been a few days in the island and got the shelter built and caught my first rabbit, I'll turn my mind to the plot of the novel. There'll be love and passion and, I dare say, death as well.

Presenter34:23

Michael Portillo, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Rt Hon Michael Portillo MP34:25

Don't you see?

Speaker 234:35

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio forum.