Sir Richard Sykes

Speaker 30:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.

Speaker 30:08

The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety nine, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a businessman. The son of a Yorkshire carpenter, he's today chairman of one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world. It wasn't until he found a job in a pathology laboratory in his local hospital that he realised where his true interests lay. In fact, he was twenty three before he went to university. But from that late start, he accelerated fast, taking a first class degree, heading a research unit, working in America, and eventually returning home to join the company he now runs. Last year he was voted the country's most impressive industrialist, a position he's earned by being tough, determined and ambitious. The way science is being done is changing beyond recognition, he says. It's no longer a bloke shouting Eureka, I've found something in a bottle. He is the chairman of GlaxoWelcome, Sir Richard Sykes. Does that mean, Sir Richard, that science is no longer as exciting as it was now that it's become big business and done corporately?

Sir Richard Sykes1:27

Oh, I think science is still extremely exciting. In fact, you could argue that it's it's it's even more exciting than it ever used to be simply because it's moving at a much rapid pace. The results come much faster than they ever came in the past. But it tends to be uh a number of small eurekas that eventually end up to be a big eureka rather than just one big eureka.

Presenter1:50

But it's not like a man working on his own when the Eureka would really belong to him.

Sir Richard Sykes1:53

No, because I think that's very, very difficult today. People work in teams, they work across disciplines. In fact, they work across the globe on many projects, and that's the way that big science operates.

Presenter2:05

But you know, don't you, about the excitement of discovery. I one of your early fields was was microbiology, and you were kind of leaping out of bed in the morning, weren't you?

Sir Richard Sykes2:12

Yes, because the the beauty of of working with bacteria is that they they they have the result for you very quickly. So you can manipulate bacteria, plate them out on a on a on a jelly on which they will grow, put them in an incubator and overnight the result will be there in the morning.

Presenter2:29

So did you set the alarm so you could'cause you were so excited by it?

Sir Richard Sykes2:32

You don't need an alarm under those circumstances.

Presenter2:35

But you crossed the divide some time ago, didn't you, from the laboratory into the boardroom? Do do you miss the lab? Do you miss that sense of excitement?

Sir Richard Sykes2:43

Oh, of course, and and it it's not a it's not something that happens immediately. It's a very slow process because you hang on to the the the the scientific excitement, you hang on to doing work in the laboratory, but eventually the the the the boardroom that takes you away from the laboratory and and eventually it becomes an impossible task to keep up with the science. And the the the problem is when you get back into the laboratory and you see people working, you hear the scientists and you get the excitement, you say, This is where I'd really like to be.

Presenter3:15

Yeah.

Sir Richard Sykes3:15

Uh

Presenter3:17

On the other hand, in nineteen ninety five, when as chairman you made the hostile bid for welcome and won, you described it then as being the most exciting moment in your life. You said it was it was thrilling.

Sir Richard Sykes3:31

Yes, in in a in a very different sort of way because you you obviously pumping a lot of adrenaline under these circumstances uh and it's like playing three-dimensional chess because you're looking at all the various aspects that that can derail such a uh a situation and and it's very nerve-wracking because you're dealing with uh some big issues.

Presenter3:51

It was incredibly audacious, wasn't it? I mean, somebody said you were like Cool Hand Luke.

Sir Richard Sykes3:57

In retrospect maybe.

Presenter3:59

What's the final judgment then for you, having done both? Is big business more exciting than science or vice versa?

Sir Richard Sykes4:05

They're both extremely exciting but in very, very different ways.

Presenter4:08

Plus for you.

Sir Richard Sykes4:09

For me now it it has to be big business because the science is behind me.

Presenter4:14

Tell me about your first record.

Sir Richard Sykes4:16

It's the Huddersfield Choral Society singing the Hallelujah Chorus conducted by Sir Malcolm Sargent. And this is very much associated with Huddersfield, my hometown, and Sir Malcolm Sargent conducted twenty nine times the Huddersfield Choral Society singing Handel's Messiah.

Presenter5:37

The Huddersfield Choral Society singing the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah, with the Liverpool Philharmonic, conducted by Malcolm Sargent, as he was then, because that was recorded in Huddersfield Town Hall in nineteen forty six and memories, Sir Richard Sykes, of a Yorkshire childhood in the village of Crimble, about five miles from Huddersfield. A lot of music in the home.

Sir Richard Sykes5:56

Not a lot in the home, but certainly a lot in the village. The the whole of the Culne Valley, which runs from Marsden, Slathwaite, Linthwaite into Huddersfield, and the whole surrounding area is very, very musical. Most of those little villages have their own orchestras, have their own singing groups.

Presenter6:15

And did your family take part in all of that?

Sir Richard Sykes6:16

Yes, yes. My mother used to do some singing. But more than that, I think not my father, but my father's brothers, were all pretty musical. They played musical instruments in local orchestras.

Presenter6:27

And I have to say, reading about your boyhood, it sounds pretty idyllic. You obviously had enormous freedom to roam around this countryside.

Sir Richard Sykes6:34

Yes, yes. I mean, that was a wonderful uh childhood. Just being part of nature, total freedom. I don't think I ever returned home any day without coming home wet, having fallen in the stream or a lake or something.

Presenter6:49

And check

Sir Richard Sykes6:49

Chasing something.

Presenter6:50

Mother was never worried about you.

Sir Richard Sykes6:51

I don't think she was worried. When she needed me she caught for me like she caught for the dog. She just shouted, and I guess if I was within hearing distance I got back. If not, I returned at some stage.

Presenter7:03

What did your father do?

Sir Richard Sykes7:04

He was a carpenter and um

Sir Richard Sykes7:07

He was a very hard working man. He certainly in my early childhood, I think th throughout his life, worked seven days a week. He was always working whether if he wasn't working at work, he was working at home, and that's what kept him going.

Presenter7:22

But I get the impression, nevertheless, that your your mother was somehow the driving force of the family.

Sir Richard Sykes7:28

Yeah, she she was a driving force in terms of of of education. Not that my father was against education, he he was very positive, but my mother w was very clear about where she wanted her boys to go and and she wanted them to be educated.

Presenter7:42

So she must have been um well she must be uh she still lives in Crimblede. She must be very proud of her youngest son.

Sir Richard Sykes7:46

Yeah, yeah.

Sir Richard Sykes7:48

Yeah, I'm sure she is, eh?

Presenter7:50

Must have been very worried about you when you were a boy at grammar school, though,'cause you you didn't shine particularly, did you?

Sir Richard Sykes7:55

No, not at all. And and I think they probably were concerned, and and and they used to go to parents' evenings, of course, and get the same old rhetoric, you know, he could do better, but I don't think it did a lot of good.

Presenter8:06

Why not? What what did you think you wanted to do with your life then, then?

Sir Richard Sykes8:10

I always wanted to be a naturalist. I I think I was just interested in in everything that was natural and and school just didn't inspire me, whether it was the teaching, I I think probably that was the the big issue. But I just could never get into it, I could never get excited by it. So my view was that I just wanted to be a naturalist and I couldn't actually put the two together. If you want to be a naturalist you've got to educate yourself, but that came later.

Presenter8:35

Next record.

Sir Richard Sykes8:37

Record number two is is is a Mozart piano concerto. And piano concertos, particularly Mozart piano concertos, I find extremely relaxing. I love to listen to them, particularly when I'm reading and studying, because they just calm me down and and put me in that sort of mood.

Presenter9:55

Mitsu Uchide playing part of the Largheto for Mozart's Concerto for Piano and Orchestra in F major, number eleven, with the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Jeffrey Tate.

Presenter10:04

Um miraculously, it seems to me, Sir Richard, you suddenly found the right niche in life. How did it happen?

Sir Richard Sykes10:14

After the failure to become a naturalist, I got a job at the local hospital in the pathology lab and

Sir Richard Sykes10:23

Within days I knew this was exciting, this was exactly what I wanted to do.

Presenter10:28

Why? What happened that made it appeal?

Sir Richard Sykes10:30

It was just the excitement of working with science that was related in some way to disease. So in a pathology lab, you study histopathology, looking at the tissues, you study hematology, looking at the blood, biochemistry, bacteriology. And to me, this was absolutely fascinating, putting science into practice.

Presenter10:50

So it was the it was that exactly that, was it? It was not the theory, although obviously you were learning the theory, it was the it was the fact that it had a practical, a real application in real life.

Sir Richard Sykes10:58

Yes, because I'm a practical person basically, and for the first time I could I could relate the two.

Presenter11:03

But it was obviously for you then a hugely uphill struggle, because by this stage, as we've said, you were out of school, you were out of the education system. So it was, what, A levels at night school, working by day was a huge trudge for some years, wasn't it?

Sir Richard Sykes11:17

Yes, because I had to take the the professional examinations of the Institute of Medical Laboratory Technology, and that was three nights a week, and on top of that to study for A levels as well.

Presenter11:26

But where did this boy who used to enjoy his rabbits and his mice and sort of drifting about the place, where did you suddenly find this grit, this determination?

Sir Richard Sykes11:35

Well, I think it became very clear at that stage that uh I got to think about uh a future existence uh and it wasn't in in playing around as I'd probably played around for sixteen years. I know

Presenter11:46

But it was the work ethic, wasn't it? That's right.

Sir Richard Sykes11:48

Well

Presenter11:48

Because you were so inspired by the work you did.

Sir Richard Sykes11:51

Oh, no, no, I was inspired, but I recognised that that that this was the future. I had to get a job, and uh this this was the way to go.

Presenter11:58

What it meant eventually was, and as I said, it took you you were twenty three before you got to university, but you'd come to London before that. You you hit London, in fact, in the sixties, didn't you when it was swinging? Did you swing with it?

Sir Richard Sykes12:09

Mm, I think I swung along with it, but not with it.

Presenter12:13

Tell me about record number three.

Sir Richard Sykes12:15

Record number three takes me back to that period because I'm moving to London.

Sir Richard Sykes12:20

There was a record li Lending library in in Westminster, and the first record that I took from that library was David Ostrach playing Beethoven's Violin Concerto.

Presenter13:30

David Oystrach with the National French Radio Orchestra playing the opening of the Larghetto from Beethoven's violin concerto in D, conducted by André Cluitas.

Presenter13:39

London University, Sir Richard Sykes the degree, Bristol the doctorate, some years in academic research. And then you made the first of several unusual moves, it seems to me, but important moves in your life, because you were thirty years old and you moved out of academe into industry, into Glaxo, in fact. Did you have any reason to believe that you'd be good at it at the business end of science?

Sir Richard Sykes14:03

I think that that I'd had some associations with Glaxo during my time at Bristol, and my professor was the guiding light here. He said, Look, you're going to be much better in an industrial environment than you are in an academic environment. I don't know whether that was a compliment or not. Why did you say that?

Presenter14:20

Why did you say that, Jenny?

Sir Richard Sykes14:21

I think because of just the way that uh I was, we backed to the practical, pragmatic type of attitude. And uh his view was, look, you you'll do well in industry.

Presenter14:31

Just enjoying the application again, liking to follow it through, see where it goes. Five years later, though, in 1977, you upton off to the States.

Sir Richard Sykes14:32

Yeah.

Presenter14:40

Why?

Sir Richard Sykes14:41

I think there are there were a number of reasons. The mid-seventies in this country, in my opinion, were not a wonderful time.

Sir Richard Sykes14:49

The weather was pretty lousy, but th that probably wasn't the main reason.

Speaker 314:52

Hasn't changed.

Presenter14:53

Uh

Sir Richard Sykes14:53

The economy was bad.

Presenter14:56

Taxes were high.

Sir Richard Sykes14:56

Yeah, two children, we struggled. If we wanted to go on vacation we had to sell antiques to to to make money. And and I was offered a job in the United States, uh to go to the United States and earn an enormous salary of what appeared to be an enormous salary at that time in a beautiful place in Princeton, New Jersey.

Presenter15:15

With a fridge and a freezer in the kitchen.

Sir Richard Sykes15:16

and two cars and and a house and it just it was just was a world apart.

Presenter15:21

And okay, it was different in that material sense. What about in the sense of attitude and approach to the work?

Sir Richard Sykes15:27

Everybody was welcoming. You know, here I was, a foreigner, coming to be their boss, interfering into their process, but everybody, you know, just welcomed the process and from then on, every time I got a promotion, everybody was so excited about it, they'd throw a party. It's just uh uh th the attitude, the the whole cultural experience was tremendous.

Presenter15:50

Success is applauded, really.

Sir Richard Sykes15:52

Yeah, success is really applauded. You get in a cab in New York City and the guy says, What do you do? and you say, You know, I'm do this and he said, Yeah, you earn a lot of money and I said, Yeah, I reasoned about money. Fantastic, he said, Fantastic. That's what I want to do.

Sir Richard Sykes16:07

And if you you know, the the contrast is getting a cab in London and you know what that guy says when you tell him you earn a lot of money.

Presenter16:12

Record number four.

Sir Richard Sykes16:13

Record number four reminds me again of this time in the United States when we would go to the Metropolitan Opera House in New York because it's not too difficult to get there from Princeton. But the first time that we went there, we went to listen to The Marriage of Figaro.

Presenter16:51

You listen before the turn of the

Speaker 417:14

Get boss!

Speaker 417:18

From the team.

Speaker 417:22

Little, please.

Speaker 417:25

The team is all the more in the world.

Presenter17:32

Patricia Johnson as Marcellina, and Edith Mattis as Susanna, singing Via Resti Servita, Madama Brillanta, from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, with the Berlin Opera Orchestra, conducted by Carl Burm.

Presenter17:44

But then, nineteen eighty six comes another big leap. You've been in America for a decade. A call comes from Glaxo, your old firm, to come back to Britain. If you were having such a great time, why on earth were you tempted?

Sir Richard Sykes17:56

A good question.

Sir Richard Sykes17:58

But both my wife and I were brought up in this country, we were educated here, and it was a big decision because the children by then were twelve and thirteen, and if we'd stayed any longer in the United States, I think it would have been impossible to return to the United Kingdom.

Presenter18:14

Time to come home. But Glaxo was a different company by this stage, wasn't it?

Sir Richard Sykes18:18

Oh, Glaxo changed out of old recognition. When I left Glaxo, it was a small parochial pharmaceutical company. When I came back, it was a big company, changed completely, now a global organization.

Presenter18:33

Because in the beginning, of course, I mean, from my childhood, certainly Glaxo, you always uh connected it with bonny babies, milk dried milk, really, with vitamins.

Sir Richard Sykes18:38

Yeah.

Sir Richard Sykes18:40

Yeah.

Sir Richard Sykes18:41

That's how it started. Milk for babies and then milk for people and then adding vitamins to give sunshine milk and then into steroids. And then of course it transformed itself into a pharmaceutical company and then into a research based pharmaceutical company.

Presenter18:55

But what it came across, wasn't it, and what made the big difference was was Zantac, which is the ulcer drug.

Sir Richard Sykes19:01

That's right. And so in the eighties this is what changed Glaxoativo recognition, a drug that that eventually had sales of about two point four billion pounds worldwide.

Presenter19:13

What kind of percentage of of of the uh

Sir Richard Sykes19:16

At one time that was more than fifty percent. Even by nineteen ninety five, it was still in the forties. So you can see it dominated the whole company and produced a lot of money that could be invested back into R and D. And that was the enticement for me to come back into the UK.

Presenter19:32

Put money into research and development.

Sir Richard Sykes19:34

Yes, because there was almost an unlimited spend to be put back into research and development at that time.

Presenter19:40

So that's what you did. But then again, spool on a few more years, and here comes the biggest leap of all. Nineteen ninety three, you're made deputy chairman and chief executive of the whole shooting mess.

Presenter19:51

Did you know you could do it? It's unusual. I mean, you know.

Presenter19:55

For a scientist to become, to lead the business is very unusual. Whether that's right or wrong is another matter, but it's unusual.

Sir Richard Sykes20:01

But remember, this was becoming a research driven organization. The whole business is driven by knowledge. The whole business is driven by innovation and creativity. And that is what's so critically different and important today from the past.

Presenter20:18

Why do you think, though? What qualities do you think you had and have that made it possible?

Sir Richard Sykes20:18

Uh

Sir Richard Sykes20:26

They think you need to be tough when when you're in this sort of environment, and I certainly have that from my background. You need to be able to make decisions and you need to stand by those decisions. And sometimes you need to be ruthless. You need to be kind. You need to be ruthless.

Presenter20:43

No pain, no gain is absolutely right.

Sir Richard Sykes20:44

Absolutely right.

Presenter20:46

When you say you have that from your background, which bit of your background?

Sir Richard Sykes20:49

Oh, I th I guess my Yorkshire jeans.

Sir Richard Sykes20:52

Um I think my my father was a was a tough man. I mean, he was a nice man, he was a gentleman, but he was pretty tough when when he when he needed to be.

Presenter21:00

And your mother?

Sir Richard Sykes21:01

Yeah, she's a tough lady. She must be she's still around.

Presenter21:05

She's running crimbles.

Presenter21:07

Extraord number five.

Sir Richard Sykes21:09

My next record reminds me of that time when I came back to the UK and had to now start investing in a big way in research and development, not just in the UK but outside the UK. And we had a at that time and still have a big operation in Italy in Verona, a beautiful Roman city, with one of the finest arenas outside Rome. And every year in July and August is the Arena Opera Festival. And of course it's basically a Verdi festival. And so this was one of the great delights of going to Verona.

Speaker 421:44

For the ancient man in swarm, keep on a throne of the ancient war.

Presenter21:45

God is war.

Presenter21:50

Yeah.

Speaker 421:52

Your authority can't tell.

Presenter22:18

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 422:26

That way to this wind and put it on.

Speaker 422:34

Baker Potter was more through the splendor.

Presenter22:43

Matteo Manguera singing Di Provenza il mar il suole from Actua Verdi's La Traviata with the National Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Richard Bonning. So, Sir Richard Sags, you became chief executive and subsequently chairman of the company. And then this autumn, when it became apparent that Ralenza, your new anti-flu drug, was not going to be made available on the NHS, you hit the roof. You said it was a kick in the teeth for research and innovation. Wasn't it presumptuous of you at £25 a course to assume that it would be put on the National Health?

Sir Richard Sykes23:15

I think the issue is about value and value for money. And I'd like to make it very clear that I'm a great supporter of providing value for money.

Presenter23:27

So wouldn't you therefore understand that they couldn't put something that was twenty five pounds' worth on that that millions would come for?

Sir Richard Sykes23:27

Uh

Sir Richard Sykes23:34

We have to get medicines of value to patients. If patients need that medicine, why wouldn't they have access to it? That's the whole basis of the NHS.

Presenter23:44

But the Government's argument would be that the NHS can't afford it. There has to be some kind of rationing because there simply isn't enough money, and as a businessman you would surely understand that.

Sir Richard Sykes23:52

But that's our problem, you see, surely.

Sir Richard Sykes23:55

that the drug has been through a process that proves its safety, its efficacy and its quality, and that is a medicines agency in the UK. But not its cost of money. And now NICE has been put in place to say

Presenter24:04

But not its cost.

Sir Richard Sykes24:07

Does this add value to the NHS?

Presenter24:09

It's nice being the National Institute for Clinical Excellence.

Sir Richard Sykes24:11

For physical excellence, that's right.

Presenter24:13

Yes.

Sir Richard Sykes24:14

And that's the question, but you can only answer that question once the drug has been in the general population, because it's very difficult to answer that question in a clinical trial setting. You need to have the drug in the NHS working through a flu season, and when you've got that data, then you can stand back and say, is this cost effective?

Presenter24:34

But what it means is that as we've discussed as a scientist and a businessman, you now have a dilemma. You, the scientists, are compromised, aren't you? Because you're now being told the message of this is that you mustn't just make something that is safe and efficacious, it must also be cost effective. And that's something that perhaps, as a scientist, you haven't paused to think about before.

Sir Richard Sykes24:55

No, no, but I don't think it's a conflict between science and business. It's a conflict. My job, and the job of people who work in Glax AWELCOM, is to bring medicines of value to the patients that need them.

Presenter25:06

The government is saying this is not valid.

Sir Richard Sykes25:06

The government is sitting.

Sir Richard Sykes25:08

Yeah, but I would be concerned if I was a patient who was going to get flu this winter and already had been vaccinated but didn't respond to the vaccination, and I was an elderly patient who could be threatened quite seriously by this disease. 4,000 people in a normal flu season die from influenza in this country. So the drug.

Sir Richard Sykes25:29

It should be made available and then it's up to the gatekeepers, the general practitioners, to decide if it's appropriate to give it to that patient or not.

Presenter25:38

The result of this controversy is that you have said Glaxo is working in a hostile environment and you more or less seem to threaten that you might consider upping sticks and moving somewhere else out of the country. Would you do that?

Sir Richard Sykes25:50

Well, I think that there was a little bit of media hype around that issue. My position to the government was not a threat but a plea. Please recognise that the the pharmaceutical industry in Britain is one of its finest industries. It's a research based industry, it employs thousands of scientists, highly qualified people, and what we must make sure of is that we don't continue to make the environment so inimical that these pharmaceutical companies, not just GlaxoWelcome, start to move their bases out of the United States.

Presenter26:24

You might think twice before you invested more in research and development here.

Sir Richard Sykes26:29

Perhaps that could well be an issue. Obviously, we have no intention of leaving the country tomorrow. We employ thousands of people and thousands of scientists. But the point what I want to be sure of is that the government recognises that they have to continue to encourage this industry, not continue to put regulations in place that make it more and more difficult to work.

Presenter26:53

Tell me about your next record.

Sir Richard Sykes26:55

The n the next record that I've chosen is uh from Donizetti's Don Pasquale. And uh we just returned from the United States and we were getting back into the opera in in in the UK and we went to the ENO to hear uh Don Pasquale. And it was the first time I'd actually heard uh this performance and it was absolutely delightful.

Speaker 427:36

Yeah.

Speaker 427:56

Angela.

Presenter28:02

Enzodara, Alessandro Cobelli, Luciana Serra, and Aldo Bertolo singing the quartet from Act Two of Donizetti's Don Pasquale, with the orchestra of the Royal Theatre of Turin, conducted by Bruno Campanella.

Presenter28:14

Pharmaceutical companies across the world, Sir Richard, are working together researching into genetics, the Human Genome Project, and in particular into something called SNP mapping. Tell me what it is.

Sir Richard Sykes28:26

Well, what we've got going on at the moment is the sequencing and mapping of the human genome, and this is being done by the big labs throughout the world, so that by 2001 we will probably have about 90% or more than 90% of the genome sequenced. That means that one will be able to understand where all the genes are. This is an unbelievable advance because it's critically important, one for understanding disease, understanding the underlying mechanisms, because all diseases have a genetic component. But if we talk

Sir Richard Sykes29:04

That's right.

Presenter29:04

It's how it affects us because of what we are.

Sir Richard Sykes29:06

Yes, we we are a function of our genes.

Presenter29:09

Hmm.

Sir Richard Sykes29:11

Went to the surgery and there was somebody in there with a cold, you might catch it and I might not.

Sir Richard Sykes29:17

There's obviously a difference between us. So, your susceptibility is greater than mine at that particular time. Now, that can somehow be related to genes, related to environmental factors, but always the genes are going to play a role. Now, the entire genome is built up of 3 billion base pairs. These are chemicals.

Sir Richard Sykes29:39

Within those base pairs.

Sir Richard Sykes29:41

ninety nine point nine percent of yours and mine and everybody else's are probably the same. It's the zero point one percent that makes us what we are and makes us susceptible to different things. And these are cult SNPs, single nucleotide polymorphisms. And these are the things that are going to be critically important

Presenter29:58

Two pounds.

Sir Richard Sykes30:02

In how people react to disease, for instance.

Presenter30:04

So what's the application of that? If you could actually analyze that, if you could, you know, write down my SNP map as it were, what does that mean you can do for me that you can't at the moment?

Sir Richard Sykes30:05

Good enough.

Sir Richard Sykes30:11

That's a twelve

Sir Richard Sykes30:14

What we need to do first of all is on the back of the the Human Genome Project is to get a good SNP map, so a gene map and a SNP map. So now you can see where these changes are in a normal population. Now you need to go out and look at populations of asthmatics, of people who suffer from cardiovascular disease, of people who suffer from schizophrenia. So you take these disease groups and now you look at their SNP maps and compare them to the normal SNP map.

Sir Richard Sykes30:42

Now you one will be able to start to see.

Sir Richard Sykes30:45

What are the changes that relate to those specific diseases? So now, if one takes a sample of cells from yourself and looks at the SNP map and compares it to all these various SNP maps when they become available, then one will be able to see if you're susceptible to asthma, cardiovascular disease, or so on.

Presenter31:06

So is that how diagnoses in the doctor's surgery of the future might take place if I go in and and give a a a sample of my saliva?

Presenter31:14

he could immediately know what was wrong with me or why I was reacting as I was reacting.

Sir Richard Sykes31:17

There's absolutely no question that that with modern technology and with all this information coming, that it will soon be possible for each person to have an individual genetic map.

Sir Richard Sykes31:29

And also to look at the various SNPs as the SNP mapping takes place.

Presenter31:35

So you'd be treating the person, the individual, rather than the specific complaint.

Sir Richard Sykes31:35

See

Sir Richard Sykes31:39

That has to be the objective at the end of the day, because when you walk into the doctor's office today coughing and spluttering, the doctor says, Ah, you've got asthma.

Sir Richard Sykes31:46

But that's a phenotype. That is what you can see. The doctor cannot see what's causing that phenotype, which is the genotype. Once you can understand the genotype, now you know what the underlying mechanism of the phenotype is, the symptom.

Presenter31:59

Doesn't that mean that the drug that he would then prescribe for me would have to be tailor-made for me rather than just an all-purpose drug that Glaxo has produced?

Sir Richard Sykes32:08

Not tailor-made for you specifically, but tailor-made for the underlying mechanism of your disease.

Presenter32:15

Record number seven.

Sir Richard Sykes32:16

My next record is Jacqueline Dupre.

Sir Richard Sykes32:19

Plain Vorj's cello concerto.

Sir Richard Sykes32:24

And here I link two things in this record. One, absolute genius. She brought that instrument to life. She almost made it lift off the ground. I mean, the the lady was a genius. And yet, in the end, she was destroyed by disease, an incurable disease that has not been conquered. And it just brings the two things home to me, the the genius that is so wonderful, and yet a disease that can take it away.

Presenter33:53

Jacqueline Dupre and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra playing part of the second movement of Dvorak's cello concerto in B minor, conducted by Daniel Barrenboim.

Presenter34:02

What about psyches in relaxed mode? Do you do you do holidays?

Sir Richard Sykes34:06

Yes, I like to relax, contrary to uh

Sir Richard Sykes34:09

General opinion

Sir Richard Sykes34:11

And I can relax.

Presenter34:13

But you don't lie down on beaches, I bet.

Sir Richard Sykes34:15

Yes, I do, I can occasionally.

Presenter34:18

Do you relish the idea of being marooned on a desert island?

Sir Richard Sykes34:21

I do.

Sir Richard Sykes34:23

in a theoretical sense, because it one allows one to think and be undisturbed for a period of time. Now, of course, it's easy to say that when you live in the middle of a of a busy city, but uh I I would relish it for a period of time.

Presenter34:38

But microbiology et al. wouldn't be of much help, would it? But carpentry would.

Sir Richard Sykes34:43

Carpentry would be useful, and practical skills would be useful.

Presenter34:47

But did you inherit them from your father? Can you do all that?

Sir Richard Sykes34:49

I don't think you inherit uh skills uh of that type. They're they're learnt, but uh I certainly worked with him for many years when I was young.

Presenter34:58

So you could put up a shelter and um

Sir Richard Sykes35:00

I could do that.

Presenter35:00

Build a raft.

Sir Richard Sykes35:01

Yeah.

Presenter35:02

Last record.

Sir Richard Sykes35:03

My r last record is uh something that I certainly would like with me on a desert island, uh and that is Mendelsohn's uh symphony number four, The Italian, uh which just gets you out of bed in the morning.

Presenter36:17

London Philharmonic playing the opening of Mendelssohn's Symphony No. Four in A major, the Italian symphony, conducted by James Lockart. If you could only take one of those eight records, which one would it be? So Richard.

Sir Richard Sykes36:29

I would take Jacqueline Dupre playing the cello.

Presenter36:33

And your book, as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Sir Richard Sykes36:36

I would take The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin. It's just such a fascinating uh piece of literature, and uh it is just full of absolutely wonderful information.

Presenter36:49

And your luxury.

Sir Richard Sykes36:51

I'm going to take a telescope with me, an astronomical telescope, because obviously on a desert island the skies are going to be perfect, and I'm fascinated by astronomy.

Presenter37:02

Sir Richard Sykes, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Sir Richard Sykes37:06

Thank you.

Speaker 337:23

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.