Martin Pipe

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety nine, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:31

My Castaway this week is a racehorse trainer. In fact, he's the most successful trainer in Britain to day. For the last fourteen years he's trained more winners than anyone else in the field. Success has brought criticism. There are some who think his methods too rigorous. But this son of a bookmaker who never got on a horse until he was seventeen and who rode only one winner in a point to point is highly admired within his profession. Recently he won the Trainers' Championship, based on the most prize money won in the year, for the eighth time. Winning is a drug for me, he says, and my appetite for it is insatiable. He is Martin Pipe. Have you always been competitive, Martin?

Martin Pipe1:10

Very keen, very competitive. I want to win.

Presenter1:13

But it's a kind of it seems to me your competitiveness a kind of uh thing based on calculation. You're not trusting to lady luck, are you?

Martin Pipe1:21

Certainly not. Being a bookmaker, you try and get the odds in your favour, try and get everything stacked your way, so you have a better chance of winning, a better chance of succeeding.

Presenter1:30

But what what else does having been a bookmaker, which is where you started in life in your in your father's shops,

Presenter1:36

What else has it got in common with being a trainer? It seems to me there's there's quite a lot there, really, isn't there?

Martin Pipe1:42

Of course I knew all the race courses. I used to go racing with my father. Never dreamed of being a racehorse trainer. Um always wanted to be a jockey.

Martin Pipe1:50

Um but I went round the race courses, saw what happened, all the betting, all the excitement and got really, really interested in it. And then being a bookmaker we handled about forty-five betting shops and uh I was in charge of a lot of them so we had to keep in touch with exactly what was going on and this this helps me control so I know exactly what's going on with each one of my horses.

Presenter2:13

So you have to make very quick judgments, the same as a bookie. You've got to be flexible.

Presenter2:18

Keep everything going right until the last moment.

Martin Pipe2:20

Quick decisions, yes, quite right.

Presenter2:20

Yeah.

Martin Pipe2:22

And correct decisions. With with bookmaking you're handling money, so if you didn't make the right decisions you lost.

Presenter2:27

But is it the same now being a trainer, having you know, making that last minute decision as to which race a horse should go in?

Martin Pipe2:34

Yes, we we leave it quite late to doing that. Number one depends on the going, on on the weather, what what sort of ground the horse likes, and this can alter at the very last minute up to we have twenty four hours the day before to declare horses. And I'm one of the last to declare, if you ask whether these, I'm always very late.

Speaker 12:50

Yeah.

Presenter2:50

That's where the

Presenter2:53

But the big difference, it seems to me, is as a bookie you need never touch a horse, whereas you press the flesh

Martin Pipe3:00

Every day, don't you? That's right. I go around feeling the legs. I feel at least two hundred legs every day and it's a great thrill. What are you feeling for? You you feel for heat in their tendons. Um you look at the horse but you basically I'm feeling for heat in any bumps or knocks and so that we treat it. That's the most important. If we have a cut we've got to treat it, make sure no infection gets into it and then it keeps your your horse fresh and well and ready to race. But is the horse never

Presenter3:23

Nevertheless, still fundamentally for you a a vehicle that enables you to satisfy that desire to win.

Martin Pipe3:30

Um I I love getting the best out of the horses. So I love the horses. Uh I love seeing them in the fields when they're fat and uh just enjoying theirself. And then we come in and prepare them and have to get all the fat off, turn it all into muscle, and get them looking slim and sleek, and then they can run faster, of course. Tell me about your first record.

Martin Pipe3:50

Hard to make a stand.

Martin Pipe3:52

And uh people that know of me will know Maker Stan won the champion hurdle. He really did go from rags to riches.

Martin Pipe3:59

He won some very small races to begin with and went to the top. And it was a great thrill, a real, real great thrill. And we came home after winning the champion hurdle, which was a a really nice surprise. Went back into our local pub with the cup, opened the door, and you'd never believe this record was playing.

Speaker 44:19

And make a stand.

Speaker 44:23

And it's hard to make a stand.

Speaker 44:27

It was hard to make a stand.

Speaker 44:32

Was hard to make a stand.

Speaker 44:36

Yes, it is.

Presenter4:40

Cheryl Crowe and Hard to Make a Stand and memories of winning the Champion Hurdle 1997, a couple of years ago, Martin Pipe, um, with Make a Stand. You won the National, of course, in 1994, wasn't it, Minnie Homer?

Martin Pipe4:52

That was with Freddie Starr's Mini Homer, yes.

Presenter4:54

Yeah, is that the only time you've won the national? That's the only

Martin Pipe4:56

It's the only time a game

Presenter4:57

Unforgettable experience?

Martin Pipe4:59

Unforgettable. Freddie Starr wasn't there. So my wife and I, we had all the glory basically. So we were collecting the trophy. And again, an unbelievable feeling.

Martin Pipe5:10

And you you've got it in

Presenter5:11

Any one time at least a hundred horses can go up to a hundred and fifty, I think, doesn't it?

Martin Pipe5:15

But that's right, I've got lots of horses to look after.

Presenter5:17

And how many of them d do you own yourself or own a leg of?

Martin Pipe5:21

Too many, I think. I love buying horses. I'm a very bad seller. Uh I love hanging on to my babies so that I know where they're going to race and what they can do, so that we don't over face them.

Presenter5:33

And that's the point, isn't it? Because these horses of yours, and this is what you're noted for, are brought to the peak of fitness for these races. I'm I'm sure other trainers would claim that they do the same, but you have a particular approach which is quite a a scientific high tech approach. You every day I mean, describe it to me, you test the horses in all sorts of ways, don't you?

Martin Pipe5:51

That's right, every day. The first thing we do is check their eyes and nose to make sure they're not running, that they're not running a fever. We take their temperature, we take regular blood tests on all the horses. What do you take blood tests for? To to check that they're healthy, fit and healthy, they've got no bugs coming, no coughs or anything like this.

Presenter6:11

And you ought to take a a video of their throat.

Martin Pipe6:13

Yeah.

Presenter6:13

Some Uh

Martin Pipe6:13

Yeah.

Presenter6:13

Uh

Martin Pipe6:14

Yes, we do what they call as an endoscopy. You can look right down into their throat, you can see how their breathing is, how their muscles are working, and you can go down into their lungs and take samples, see if a horse has broken blood vessels, if he's got any chronic inflammation. And it doesn't hurt them at all. It's much, much simpler than doing humans. So they don't object to being this closely monitored? No, they don't object at all. And it's all for their health and benefit. They swim in a pool, they take showers. A swimming pool. They have a shower after that where they're washed. In the swimming pool, it's the same as a human swimming pool.

Presenter6:41

They take showers.

Martin Pipe6:48

Ours is a circular one, but there's a ton of salt in there to help buoyancy and heal any cuts. And they have a shower afterwards and then go in the solarium where they're dried off. And then they get massaged, don't they? And they get a rub down and they get the old-fashioned strapping. Of course, it's very stimulating for the muscles to build up one side or the other side. It's very, very good. It gets all the blood flowing. They're happy horses.

Presenter7:09

Yeah.

Martin Pipe7:12

Above all they must be happy, healthy horses, those win races.

Presenter7:16

And also, you know, you can't beat the facts. What you've done in all of that is you've reduced all the unknowns. Again, it's a very keen calculation, all of this, isn't it?

Martin Pipe7:25

Yeah.

Presenter7:25

Yeah.

Martin Pipe7:25

Basically we we try and take the guesswork out of training.

Martin Pipe7:28

Years ago we had a horse called Bonanza Boy. He was going to win, we thought, on the Saturday at Cheltenham and his blood test came through two minutes before decoration time saying he couldn't win. And I was really frustrated. We took him out. A few days later he went down with a virus, an infection, ran a temperature. If we'd run him, he would have lost and he'd been off for two or three months. But I bet you have some quarrels with the owners. They say, why are you pulling my horse out? It was frustrating that day because the owner had a big party going on, but he saw sense and he won next time out. We try and do the best for the horses. Look after the horses first and the owners second, I'm afraid. And then the horses will look after you. And the horses will look after us.

Martin Pipe8:09

Record number two. I used to have a a record player, one of these old record players, in a sports car that used to spin round and round, not the sports car, a few of them did. And I used to play this driving home from Durston, which is just outside of Taunton, and I'd race to beat the record so that I'd get home before Hey Jude finished. As you know, it goes on and on at the end, and I was always just passing the police station, which is about two or three miles away from where I used to live, up Troll Road, and I'd foot down, belting up, just to get home in time.

Speaker 48:40

Hey June.

Speaker 48:43

Don't let me down. Yeah.

Martin Pipe8:45

Uh

Speaker 48:47

You have found her, now go and get her.

Speaker 48:53

Remember hate to let her into your heart

Speaker 48:59

Where you can start

Speaker 49:02

To make it in battle

Presenter9:06

The Beatles and Hey Jude and memories of an early sports car, um uh of which you wrote several off, I think, didn't you, Martin?

Martin Pipe9:12

Yes, I was a quick driver and uh uh used to spin a few, I'm afraid.

Presenter9:16

Your mum and dad apparently thought you were too brave. They were kind of worried for you all the time, weren't they?

Martin Pipe9:21

Yes, I was very muddy coddled as a a child, I think. I wasn't even allowed to ride a bicycle to school, so uh I had to walk to school or I was taken to school. So when I had this sports car uh at seventeen you can imagine what happened. Freedom at last freedom at last and uh

Presenter9:35

You've read them at last.

Martin Pipe9:38

I used to go quite quick.

Presenter9:40

And they didn't let you get on a horse, which is what you really wanted to do.

Martin Pipe9:43

I wasn't allowed to ride a horse, no.

Presenter9:45

So what happened when you did? You were seventeen by the time you got on a horse.

Martin Pipe9:48

And

Martin Pipe9:49

As everybody starts riding perhaps ponies and young horses, I was thrown straight onto a a thoroughbred racehorse. I didn't have a clue what to do, and uh I used to fall off every day, just riding the horse around the roads. I'd come home with cuts and scrapes everywhere. Never hurt myself, didn't wear a hat in those days, and always wanted to get back on for more. And you rode in a race when you'd never jumped before, I think. That's right. I had a ride at a point-to-point, and I hadn't done any schooling, and I rode.

Martin Pipe10:18

like a fantastic horse, like a Grand National horse, like Minnie Homer, that anybody could ride, and uh I sat on him and went round. I must have looked dreadful, but I completed uh and thought it was easy until the next time.

Martin Pipe10:31

And then the next time they put me on a complete novice and I was immediately upside down and fell, dragged, did everything, but always getting back on for more. But you did eventually damage yourself really quite badly, didn't you?

Martin Pipe10:43

That was on a horse called Lorak round Taunton Races. And Lorak is Carol, spelt backwards. And I went straight through the wing. That's your wife's name, isn't she? My wife's name, Carol. And I went straight through this upright, a wooden upright, and I snapped my leg, strapped my thigh, and I was out for quite a time. About six months later, they had to break it and start again. So that could explain my funny walk. You've limped ever since, maybe? I've limped ever since.

Presenter10:53

That's your way.

Speaker 110:54

Yeah.

Presenter10:54

Yeah.

Speaker 110:54

Uh

Presenter11:11

But you're a man in perpetual motion, as I understand it, in these yards of yours,'cause you've got kind of three yards all joined together with these hundred or more horses, haven't you?

Martin Pipe11:19

How do you get around there then? I've got a little kid's bicycle that I ride round, a very small one. It's very handy because I can just throw it on the floor when I want to park it as such. And I cycle like mad on this bike and fall off quite a few times on slippery ground or something. And I'm sure the horses, when I'm cycling amongst them, think I'm one of them. They really are used to me. And they see this funny little man coming along on the bike and they take no notice of me at all. It really is incredible.

Presenter11:45

This is all in Somerset, in Taunton, where you were born and brought up, where, originally, as we were saying, your dad owned a lot of of betting shops. How many were there altogether?

Martin Pipe11:55

Had about forty-five betting shops around the West Country.

Presenter11:57

You always intended to be a bookie, did you?

Martin Pipe12:00

When I was at school, What Does Everybody Want to Be When They Leave School, I put my hand up, wanted to be a bookmaker, and they all laughed.

Martin Pipe12:07

Did you ever run a book at school? Yes, I used to take bets on the on the Grand National. Um our Latin master always used to have a a half a crown each way on a horse connected with Latin, and I used to take all the bets and uh we used to have some great fun.

Martin Pipe12:23

Record number three. I've got to call this one. It's named after my wife, O'Carroll.

Speaker 412:28

Darling, there will never be an

Speaker 412:33

Cause I love you so

Speaker 412:36

Don't ever leave me.

Speaker 412:40

Say you'll never go I will always want you for my sweetheart

Speaker 412:47

No matter what you do

Speaker 412:50

Oh, Carol.

Speaker 412:54

No, it's not with you.

Presenter12:58

Neil Sadaka, and oh, Carol, memories of your wife or thoughts of your wife, I should say. She's still very much around. She worked in one of your dad's shops, didn't she, Martin?

Martin Pipe13:05

That's right, she used to work one of the uh accounting machines. She's a very tall lady, and uh we hit it off eventually after an eleven year courtship.

Martin Pipe13:15

An Englishman's Takes his time, I think. I certainly took my time.

Presenter13:20

But then, of course, in the mid seventies your your your dad sold the shops. He sold out to William Hill, didn't he? And he bought a a a a pig farm, I think, nestling under the Black Down Hills, just outside Taunton. Um which makes

Martin Pipe13:33

You were out of a job? That's correct. It was a a run down farm, uh a very muddy lane. You couldn't even drive down the lane, it was so full of mud. And uh I didn't know where to go, what to do.

Presenter13:44

But it was

Martin Pipe13:47

Um he wanted basically to re buy a farm to retire.

Martin Pipe13:50

and have some cattle and sheep and and graze it and uh enjoy the rest of his life.

Martin Pipe13:55

But we started training. I started riding, falling off, and then Dad decided to buy me some pointer pointers, and we started training those, and uh eventually, after me being hospital for over twelve months with with my broken leg, I came back and I managed to ride uh come back and ride a winner.

Martin Pipe14:14

on a horse called Weather Permitting, and uh I immediately hung my boots up, I think, and and thought about training.

Presenter14:19

And were you aware when you did that that you were were, as it were, crossing into uh unknown territory? After all

Presenter14:26

You know, not a lot of people trained horses in Somerset for a start. Everybody did it in Newmarket, where where there were big long gallops across Lamborne Chase tradition that went back for decades. Did you realize you were going to break the mould at this stage?

Martin Pipe14:38

Not really. We we didn't have any gallops or or any facilities as such. We just had fields to canter round. But um we we built our own gallops and built our own facilities and I never wanted to move out of Somerset. Uh I loved the West Country and uh decided that we wanted to stay there.

Presenter14:55

Two f feel or know even that you could do it. You were, as I say, moving into the unknown really. Were you again inhibited by the fact that practically every successful trainee you would have known was a kind of either ex-army or ex-public school so or a gentleman farmer? You know, that being the son of a bookie made you a a very kind of rare entrant into the field, really, didn't it?

Martin Pipe15:17

Yes, I certainly was an outsider. I knew nothing. Um basically that could have been a help, because I have a very searching mind. And uh i if when you run your horse and it finishes last, you try and analyse why.

Martin Pipe15:31

Was it not fit enough? Was it the wrong ground? The wrong distance? So we used to analyse everything. You at some point

Presenter15:37

Went back to school briefly, though, didn't you? To to to to get a bit more learning to do what you wanted to do.

Martin Pipe15:43

That's right. I trained a few winners, but I went to the Royal Worcester College. That was really exciting and very, very helpful.

Presenter15:50

There are stories of you in your garage at night after you've been on this course picking over old bones and bits of horse flesh to find out how they work.

Martin Pipe15:58

Well while I was there they they had some horses' legs and uh we we dissected the horses' legs and I found it very, very interesting. And we managed to get some from the abattoir and uh I I'd go through and and work out all the tens, work out where everything is and why some weren't working and why some are working. And uh then it helps you to understand the engine, the inside of the horse.

Martin Pipe16:22

Record number four. Record number four, I think the young lady was about sixteen when she was singing this, Helen Shapiro, and uh she was uh a fabulous singer, a real husky voice and walking back to happiness.

Speaker 416:36

Breath and use, I'm on my way, oh by oh yeah, yeah All my blues have blown away, oh far oh yeah I'm bringing you love so true, cause that's what I owe to you A walking back to happiness I shared with you

Presenter16:57

Helen Shapiro and Walking Back to Happiness. So you've learned it all the hard way, Martin. You're very much self taught. What big mistakes have you made along the way?

Martin Pipe17:05

Uh

Martin Pipe17:06

Um when we bought our first horses, uh we'd go to the sales and buy the cheapest one we could. We'd come home with one costing three hundred pounds um and wonder why and realize oh probably only had three legs. We honestly didn't know that whether they were sound or lame. And I think that taught me an awful lot because it taught me to to try and cure the legs and try and manage them. But what's the quirkiest horse you've ever owned?

Martin Pipe17:31

We had one horse which we paid paid a thousand pounds for a lot of money for at Ask at Sales. He was bred by a Derby winner by Crapello, and he was called Vengo. Vengo just would not go.

Martin Pipe17:43

And I can remember getting so frustrated one day

Martin Pipe17:46

I had his food, I put it outside the door, I said, If you won't gallop, you get no food. There's your food, you're gonna gallop. Of course it didn't work, nothing worked out. But in the end, we just had to ride him around the fields. We used to lunge the horse a lot, we used to put him swimming, to just try and keep him happy. And we'd used to take him to Taunton races, and he'd hate Taunton races. He'd go round, he'd do one lap of honour and pull up and stop. And I can remember being stood next to people in the crowd, they can say, What's that one? It's trained by an idiot called Pipe. And I was stood next to this chap and wanted to thump him, but I couldn't. Because you knew you were an idiot. Because I knew I was a total idiot. But a lot of coaxing, and we took him to Devon and Exeter, and he won a very poor race down there. And we were delighted. He just happened to put his head in front on the line, and the form book said, I can remember it now, every dog has his day.

Presenter18:43

But there are other horses, aren't there, who are who are nervous of racing anyway. I presume the minute you put their racing shoes on, you know, they they know what's going to happen. They're highly intelligent animals. Or you put them in the horse box. Yeah.

Martin Pipe18:54

That's right. Some horses, like humans, just before a programme or something, people sweat and worry about it. Some horses, you can see, really we we change their food just before their race. They race in light aluminium plates. When they go around the roads, they have heavy shoes on, so they don't wear them out so quickly. And you put some like new dancing shoes on a horse and he thinks, what's up? I'm racing tomorrow, and starts to leave his food the night before the race and starts to panic. So you you just have to do those as late as possible or even perhaps run them in in a lighter steel shoe.

Presenter19:29

Come on.

Presenter19:32

But you would never know, I presume, when you're buying a a a horse. I mean, you don't know if you're investing in a pup,'cause you just don't know these little quirks of character until you've got them home and you're you're actually dealing

Martin Pipe19:43

You find these out, but you do see horses at the cells that perhaps can be nervous. Um you look at their head, their eyes and things like that tell you all the uh some nature of the horse. Do they? Tell me, what are you looking for when you look at a horse's head?

Martin Pipe19:56

You'd look, as they say, for an intelligent eye, and they really are different. Um if you look at lots of human beings, you see all their eyes are different, and and all the animals are different, and their attitude to working, to walking, um some want to buck and kick and play and do nothing.

Martin Pipe20:12

It's just like some you look at some of the lads in the yard, if they're pushing a wheelbarrow. If somebody is bolt upright pushing a wheelbarrow, he's not putting any effort into it, he's not trying, but you see some little lad really struggling, pushing a heavy wheelbarrow, really getting behind it and pushing it, and he's one that wants to do it, w has got the will to win.

Presenter20:30

And you're gonna

Martin Pipe20:30

Yeah. See that kind of thing in a horse, can you, by looking at it? And you can see the way they play, the way they walk. You can see that in horses.

Martin Pipe20:38

Next record.

Martin Pipe20:40

Uh my wife's father wanted to go to a consort in London um to see Pavarotti, and uh she didn't think I would want to go because she was just going to take her father, but I thought I would go and watch Pavarotti, and I really, really enjoyed it. Fantastic music, Nessam Dormer.

Speaker 420:58

But I will be a respect I use I fear Ileno descended.

Speaker 121:04

Glory their souls are night.

Speaker 421:21

All love.

Presenter21:57

Luciano Pavarotti singing Nesundorma from Puccini's Turundotte with the London Philharmonic, conducted by Zubin Mehta.

Presenter22:04

People speculate a lot about the secret of Martin Pipe's success, and we talked about the horses' health farm and the medical centre and so on, but it strikes me that that that your secret weapon really along the way has been your dad, hasn't it? Not only did he supply the wherewithal in the first place, but he's had a lot of other input.

Martin Pipe22:22

Does well.

Presenter22:22

Uh

Martin Pipe22:22

Yeah.

Presenter22:22

Yeah.

Martin Pipe22:22

Yeah.

Presenter22:22

Uh

Martin Pipe22:23

Whatever we needed, uh he'd build for me basically. He built uh an all weather gallop. Uh we tried to to get a a firm to put in the the gallup, but he said it was gonna cost far, far too much and uh so uh he set about building our own

Martin Pipe22:37

And we put lots of drainage in and lots of wood chip on top. And we bought our own wood chip machine, so now we can top it up for free. It really is marvellous. So it's a kind of carpet of wood chips. The horses are working on a carpet of wood chips. So there's no concussion there, no jar. They're working on perfect ground all the time. How long is this gallop? It's only a short gallop, about six furlongs long. We run up and down the gallop, and they call it interval training. And it helps the horses so you don't stress and strain the horses' legs and hearts and wind all the time.

Presenter23:12

Again

Martin Pipe23:12

This is

Presenter23:12

It's quite revolutionary, isn't it? You do these short sprints with the horse. They never.

Presenter23:18

Gallop at f

Martin Pipe23:19

Full pelt for a long time. So basically they they don't get tired, they don't have to have too much o oxygen intake, and they're enjoying the work. If you go to work every day and have a really hard day and go home tired, uh you don't want to do it the next day.

Presenter23:33

But doesn't it mean that by the time they get to the race course that's the only time they actually race,'cause they don't race at home?

Martin Pipe23:39

That's true. You never know how good they are at home. If you don't gallop them over two miles, you never know whether A is better than B. But I'm not too worried about that. My job is to get the horse fit, so that he can run as fast as he can.

Presenter23:52

How much do you think that your success has had to do with with this kind of meticulous regime that you run, that you've described? Or or how much is it to do with your instinctive love of animals? I don't want to make it sound too romantic, but it seems to me you have a kind of Horse since really.

Martin Pipe24:10

We do really love them, they're molly-coddled, they they really are spoiled athletes, but they deserve to be spoilt.

Martin Pipe24:17

Yeah.

Presenter24:17

And how do you react, therefore, because you're so very close to the horses, how do you react when they have to be put down? Because inevitably, you know, at at the kind of level that you compete

Martin Pipe24:28

You lose some horses, don't you? People outside would not understand. We have our horse boxes filled up with horses, and all of a sudden you come home one night and there's not one there. You go round the next morning, you you you w want to feed him, you say, Where's Jimmy, where's so and so? It it is very, very sad and and you miss them. Some you never ever forget, because they are one of the family. You see them every day, uh you water and feed them, um you feel their legs every day, you know every bump.

Martin Pipe24:55

Nook and cranny on them, and all of a sudden they're not there. It is like missing your pet dog. Record number six.

Martin Pipe25:04

This is no one from my youth. In fact, I think it was the first holiday I was allowed to go away on, down to Newquay.

Martin Pipe25:11

And this brings back fond memories. We used to dance to this in the evenings and really let our hair down.

Speaker 425:17

Just help yourself to my lips, to my arms, just say the word and there you are. Just help yourself to the love in my heart. Your smile has opened up the door.

Speaker 425:33

Greatest wealth that exists in the world could never find what I can give. Just help yourself to my lips, to my arms, and then let's really start to live.

Presenter25:48

Tom Jones, and help yourself. Do you ever take a holiday these days, Martin?

Martin Pipe25:53

Yes, I'm afraid uh my wife is she's bigger than me, as I said, so uh she makes me take lots of holidays now. Uh one day we were in America and we hadn't seen any horses for a while and I remember her taking me past this shop and said, Look, there's a picture to have your daily fix. Uh look at the picture of the horse. Yes, horses, I'm afraid, are our number one. Do you get on better with horses than with people, do you think? I probably think so. I think they probably understand me better. What about when the owners come to call? Do you hide? Oh no, no, we have lots of owners that come down on Sunday mornings and we have some great fun. I'd probably cry if we haven't with any winners that week, but sometimes we have lots of winners and they come down and we have a glass of champagne and enjoy ourselves.

Presenter26:32

What

Martin Pipe26:32

Uh Thing about

Presenter26:33

are owners that annoys you most.

Martin Pipe26:36

Probably if they say it's my birthday today and I want to run my horse. But we can't live without owners. So you're not going to.

Presenter26:42

So you're not gonna

Martin Pipe26:43

You can't live without him. He's definitely a good idea.

Presenter26:46

What about jockeys? You've worked with some of the greats. I mean, Richard Dunwoody, Peter Scudamore were your staple jockeys, your resident jockeys, as it were, for some years at different times. But I suspect jockeys won't always be told.

Martin Pipe26:57

Old

Martin Pipe26:57

Quite right. Had several words with Peter Scudamore at times, I'm sure. Several disagreements, and we'd have an argument. But in the evening we'd phone each other up and have a chat, and Carol used to worry that I I'd talk more to Peter Scudamore than I would to her. And the same with Richard Dunwoody. You you've got to have differences of opinion.

Speaker 127:12

And the same with Richard Dunwoody.

Martin Pipe27:16

Nobody knows the answer. If you discuss it and go through things, eventually we can come up trumps.

Presenter27:22

But you believe that that the trainer is in the best position to know what the horse can do on any given day?

Martin Pipe27:28

The trainer knows how healthy and how well the horse is. Uh the jockey doesn't know if he's taking a spare ride from another mete from another stable. He doesn't know what the horse has been doing all the time. So I believe the trainer probably knows more. Um but the jockey knows all about the pace of the race.

Presenter27:42

Being very diplomatic, but trainer knows best, I think, is really what

Martin Pipe27:46

What you believed, isn't it? I think so, but Peter Scudamore and Richard Dunwoody and Tony McCoy will say no.

Presenter27:52

And what about other trainers? Do you feel now you said earlier on that you were an outsider do you feel fully accepted now as part of the fraternity? Or is there

Presenter28:00

Still a kind of higher residual resentment.

Martin Pipe28:04

Really of your success.

Martin Pipe28:05

Um, I probably still don't feel a a a a true trainer as such. I I'd love to to to go and work for a proper trainer. I've never worked in a trainer's yard, so I've devised all my own methods of of

Martin Pipe28:18

looking after the horse and daily routine. Um nothing would give me a better better thrill than to go and work for Henry Cecil for a week and learn how it's done properly. So so I s still probably uh feel a bit of an outsider.

Martin Pipe28:32

Record number seven.

Martin Pipe28:34

Uh we were talking about Peter Scudemore.

Martin Pipe28:37

And there was a time we were getting winner after winner, and uh we used to sing to him all the time. There was this record, Nobody Does It Better.

Martin Pipe28:45

And we used to say nobody does it better than skew.

Speaker 428:48

I wasn't looking, but somehow you found me. I tried to hide from your love.

Speaker 429:02

Like Heaven above me, the spy beloved me, Is keeping all my secrets safe too.

Presenter29:14

Carly Simon singing Nobody Does It Better, the theme tune to the Bond movie, The Spy Who Loved Me.

Presenter29:20

Do you always feel you know, Martin, when you're setting out for the races? Do you know what's going to happen before you get there?

Martin Pipe29:26

Sometimes I think lots of people come up to me for tips and I like to say, We're going to win or whatever. Some children came up to me at Taunton and said, You can have your autograph and what do you fancy for this? And their dads are usually lurking in the background. So I said, Tell your dad to go and have a pound on this. It's a great thrill to see them afterwards. They came running after me, you're right. I said, Make sure your dad pays you. And sometimes we go to the races and I think, why do I have to go to the races? Why do I have to take this horse there? You know, why can't they give me the prize money now? I know it's just going to go down and and come back and win. I really do. I thought, why can't we save the wear and tear on the horse and give me the prize money? I really get outspoken at times.

Presenter30:02

And

Presenter30:05

You've got all the trappings of success. You know, you've got the Rolls-Royce, I think. You've got a helicopter to get you to the courses, although it was a second-hand one your dad picked up.

Martin Pipe30:13

That's right. Again, dad helped there. And again, to save time, basically, so I could stay home and work harder and less time traveling.

Presenter30:13

That's right again.

Presenter30:21

Success record that I I think, looking at it, only you can challenge, really nobody else is anywhere near you. What's left to aim for? What what more do you want to do, achieve?

Martin Pipe30:31

Um I enjoy winning, but um I enjoy the life. Racing has given me a great life. I've met lots of lovely people. Um we've met the Queen Mother and really, really enjoyed ourself. It's taken me all over the world. Before I I started training I never went s outside of Somerset and racing has taken me to America, France, all over the world. I just enjoy doing what I'm doing.

Presenter30:55

And what if it was all taken away from you, and you were sent, horseless, to a desert island? What would what would happen to the competitive spirit then?

Martin Pipe31:04

Horseless. Um, yes, goodness knows. I suppose I'd have to think about getting off, but um.

Martin Pipe31:11

What would I do on a desert island?

Martin Pipe31:13

Certainly find it lonely.

Martin Pipe31:16

Tell me about your last record. You got your music to keep you company. It's another old favourite from my youth. A misspent youth really. Used to play snooker listening to these records, some favourite buddy Holly records, and I just love Peggy Sue.

Speaker 431:32

You, Peggy Sue, then you know why I feel blue without Peggy

Speaker 431:39

Fuck the eggy soup

Speaker 431:43

Oh well I love you Kelly, I love you, Peggy Sue

Speaker 431:50

Veggie Suit

Speaker 431:52

Biggie suit.

Speaker 431:53

Oh how my heart yearns for you oh behavior

Presenter31:54

My hearty end

Speaker 431:58

Uh

Presenter31:58

My packet is

Presenter32:02

Buddy Holly and Peggy Sue. Now, if you could only take one of those eight records, Martin, which one would you take?

Martin Pipe32:07

Yeah.

Martin Pipe32:08

If I could only take one, um there's no doubt really it would be ha have to be O'Carroll by Neil Sudaka. But it'd be closely followed by Hard to Make a Stand with Stanley, but O'Carroll would have to be the one for me.

Presenter32:19

The Wife Before the Horse

Martin Pipe32:21

Definitely.

Presenter32:21

What about your book as well as the Bible and Shakespeare?

Martin Pipe32:25

Yes, uh the Bible in Shakespeare and a very strange book. Um it's called Horse Management by R. S. Timmis. A lovely, very old fashioned

Martin Pipe32:35

Book

Martin Pipe32:36

which tells you all about the old remedies that they used to do to look after horses, the old herbal remedies, and it's it's still, in my mind, probably better in those days than now. But you're luxury.

Martin Pipe32:50

My luxury

Martin Pipe32:52

I've won lots of races uh at Cheltenham, uh going past the winning post first. So really one thing I would like to take would be the winning post from Cheltenham, um so that nobody else could win while I was away.

Presenter33:04

Martin Pipe, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Martin Pipe33:08

Thank you.

Speaker 133:17

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.