Stan Tracey

Speaker 10:00

Hello, I'm Kirstie Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety nine, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.

Presenter0:30

My castaway this week is a jazz musician. Back in the 60s on the Nightbuster Streatham, South London, he composed what's been called perhaps the greatest of all British jazz albums, his Under Milkwood suite. But the man who'd started his career performing in the RAF Gang Show with Tony Hancock and had become the celebrated mainstay of Ronnie Scott's Club hit a personal and creative crisis from which he nearly didn't recover. Then, in 1973, a concert to celebrate his 30 years in the business restored his confidence and his fortunes. Since then, he's won most of the accolades jazz can offer, and an OBE too. I only care about the now, he says, in his 73rd year, and it still feels good. He is Stan Tracy. But the then had some terrific parts, didn't they, Stan? Not least Ronnie Scott's in the 60s. What was it like? Tell me about it.

Stan Tracey1:23

It was tremendous fun.

Stan Tracey1:25

The atmosphere in the old place.

Stan Tracey1:27

was something I'd never encountered before or since. You know, it was all about the music, the people who came there.

Stan Tracey1:34

It was just a great time.

Presenter1:36

'Cause it was the first time really jazz enthusiasts had had somewhere to go of their own, wasn't it?

Stan Tracey1:41

Of that sort of place, yeah. I mean, th th there were there were various little clubs in the West End at that time.

Stan Tracey1:48

Mostly uh

Stan Tracey1:49

hotels or restaurants which devoted one night a week to jazz. But s this was the first, as far as I can remember, seven nights a week jazz club.

Presenter2:00

What time of night did it get under way?

Stan Tracey2:03

I think we started around eight thirty nine.

Presenter2:06

How early?

Stan Tracey2:08

Yeah, I suppose. But at the weekend it went on till about four o'clock in the morning.

Presenter2:12

Mm.

Stan Tracey2:13

And that was a bit of a strain.

Presenter2:15

But like-minded people gathered together and you were the resident pianist.

Presenter2:20

For seven years

Stan Tracey2:21

Well, six and a bit, I think.

Presenter2:23

For six and a bit years. How many nights a week?

Stan Tracey2:26

Six, oftimes seven.

Stan Tracey2:29

Sometimes we would do a Sunday concert in the after Sunday afternoon.

Stan Tracey2:34

And maybe I'd have my own gig.

Stan Tracey2:37

Sunday evening

Stan Tracey2:38

Um, yeah, it was very intensive.

Presenter2:40

And you loved it. You've said before now it was like Christmas every day.

Stan Tracey2:43

That's right.

Presenter2:44

Why? Tell me why. What did it mean to you?

Stan Tracey2:46

I was playing the music that I love to play.

Stan Tracey2:49

with uh quality musicians.

Stan Tracey2:53

Um we had a

Stan Tracey2:54

A stream of American players coming through, all different styles. Sonny Rollins.

Stan Tracey3:01

Stangoetz, Ben Webster.

Stan Tracey3:04

Donald Bird, JJ Johnson, Sonny Stitt.

Stan Tracey3:10

And

Stan Tracey3:11

I learned a lot during that period, you know, about the music.

Presenter3:16

Tell me about your first record on this desert island.

Stan Tracey3:19

Well this was recorded down at the old place. It's A Night with Zoot Sims. It's a nice reminder of those times and I can listen to me having a good time.

Presenter3:59

Zoot Simms playing Stompin' at the Savoy with Kenny Knapper, Jackie Dugan, and my castaway, Stan Tracy.

Presenter4:05

Tell me about writing your Under Milk Wood suite. Obviously it was inspired by Dylan Thomas's work itself. Where had you come across it?

Stan Tracey4:14

Well, my wife

Stan Tracey4:15

was liking it.

Stan Tracey4:17

Decker at that time, she was exploitation manager for London Records.

Stan Tracey4:23

And one of the albums she brought home was this uh recording by Dylan Thomas in New York.

Stan Tracey4:30

And it had an American cast, uh which

Stan Tracey4:33

you know, with sort of strangulated Welsh accents, but uh

Stan Tracey4:38

Didn't affect the words, luckily, and uh I just fell in love with with the play.

Speaker 34:43

Hmm.

Stan Tracey4:44

So I selected eight titles and wrote the music, you know, to fit the title.

Presenter4:50

And when you say to fit, what does that mean? What does the music that you eventually write from that title have to do with the title?

Stan Tracey4:58

Well

Stan Tracey4:59

Say like I lost my step in Nantucket.

Stan Tracey5:03

It's about a guy called Dancing Williams.

Stan Tracey5:07

And

Stan Tracey5:09

I try to make the music reflect

Stan Tracey5:11

That name Dancing Williams.

Stan Tracey5:14

Um

Stan Tracey5:15

It was a sort of a jaunty

Stan Tracey5:17

Jaulty Blues Pace.

Presenter5:19

But when you take other names, and you've taken place names, haven't you? To to write music um off the back of, as it were, Honey Hill or Pluck's Gutto or something these these titles trigger the invention.

Stan Tracey5:22

Yeah.

Stan Tracey5:25

Honey.

Speaker 15:26

Uh

Stan Tracey5:27

Amazing.

Stan Tracey5:34

Is it just a mood or a rhythm?

Stan Tracey5:37

or you know harmonic sequence. I I just get a a feeling from the words.

Stan Tracey5:45

And try and reflect that in the music.

Presenter5:47

And and is the writing of it

Presenter5:50

An easy business once you've found this hook, or is it a painful process?

Stan Tracey5:54

It's long and tedious.

Stan Tracey5:57

I mean, sometimes you get lucky and uh

Stan Tracey6:00

You know, it writes itself.

Stan Tracey6:03

And there are other times where it it's uphill all the way. It's really a lonely business.

Stan Tracey6:09

You know, you look at what you've written.

Stan Tracey6:11

And

Stan Tracey6:12

You have visions of the musicians chuckling up their sleeve at some of the stuff you've written.

Stan Tracey6:18

Self-critical all the way.

Presenter6:20

To all that self-doubt come in

Stan Tracey6:22

Yeah, oh yeah.

Presenter6:23

But when you finish wa I mean, d is there a moment when you know it's there?

Stan Tracey6:27

When I hear it played

Stan Tracey6:29

I mean, up until the time it's actually played

Stan Tracey6:33

I'm full of self-doubt.

Presenter6:35

Tell me about your second record.

Stan Tracey6:37

Revell's the child and the sorcerers.

Stan Tracey6:40

Actually the the guy who was on um

Stan Tracey6:43

The Zoot Sims track Kenny Nappa introduced me to this.

Stan Tracey6:47

Uh we'd done a gig.

Stan Tracey6:49

In Swansea with Bert Ambrose.

Stan Tracey6:53

And uh we got back about five or six in the morning. I went up to his flat and he said, Have you heard this?

Stan Tracey6:59

played it to me and uh

Stan Tracey7:03

I was completely enchanted with it. I love it.

Stan Tracey7:05

there's a trombone part. It's it is so reminiscent of of the sort of thing you would do in jazz. Also the harmonies, some of the harmonies

Stan Tracey7:16

You hear?

Stan Tracey7:17

Echoes of Revelle's harmonies in Ellington's music.

Stan Tracey7:21

It's quite a piece.

Speaker 37:27

Sir Curtis au journey launch A fabulous

Speaker 37:41

It using our home on the side.

Presenter7:52

Claur Vent as the Child and Lucien Lovano as the Tree from the opening of part two of Ravel's L'Enfant et les Sortilege, the Child and the Sorcerers, with the Geneva Motette and the Orchestra of the Swiss Romand conducted by Ernest Anseme.

Presenter8:06

It all began then, Stanned Tracy, not with the piano, but with an accordion.

Stan Tracey8:11

That's right.

Presenter8:12

In Tooting, in South London, how did you come by an accordion?

Stan Tracey8:17

Well, there was a shop at the top of my road.

Stan Tracey8:20

that sold accordions.

Stan Tracey8:23

Glittering beasts they were.

Stan Tracey8:25

And I wanted to own one.

Stan Tracey8:28

So, um

Stan Tracey8:29

I talked my mother into talking to my father to buy me one, and and they did.

Stan Tracey8:35

And then I went from there.

Presenter8:37

You taught yourself to play.

Stan Tracey8:38

Yes, it did.

Presenter8:39

But um did you know what sound it it made, or were you just attracted by its

Stan Tracey8:39

Yeah.

Stan Tracey8:43

Oh, I knew the sound it made.

Stan Tracey8:45

But I didn't care.

Stan Tracey8:48

We we did have a piano, but it was so awful. I mean it was completely wrecked.

Presenter8:52

Did anybody play it?

Stan Tracey8:53

My mother, yes.

Stan Tracey8:55

She she played on the Black Keys.

Presenter8:58

were only on the black.

Stan Tracey8:59

Only on the Black Keys.

Presenter9:00

What did that do to the melodies?

Stan Tracey9:02

Something very interesting.

Stan Tracey9:05

Ah!

Presenter9:05

Where did you hear music then? How did you hear it?

Stan Tracey9:09

But we didn't have a radio, um which was a drag because I missed all those wartime programmes.

Stan Tracey9:17

My father was

Stan Tracey9:19

seldom at home because he he he worked

Stan Tracey9:22

Very long hours.

Presenter9:23

What did he do?

Stan Tracey9:24

He worked in um a theatrical club in the West End.

Presenter9:28

Doing what?

Stan Tracey9:29

He worked behind the bar, he was general

Stan Tracey9:32

Fact told him whatever.

Stan Tracey9:33

But, you know, he he would leave the house.

Stan Tracey9:37

At about

Stan Tracey9:38

Known.

Stan Tracey9:39

and wouldn't get back until two in the morning.

Stan Tracey9:42

Why should he have a radio? He wasn't there to listen to it.

Stan Tracey9:45

But the people upstairs had a radio.

Stan Tracey9:48

And

Stan Tracey9:50

The bands

Stan Tracey9:51

at that time were people like Harry Roy.

Stan Tracey9:55

Oscar Rabin

Stan Tracey9:57

And

Stan Tracey9:58

I love listening to it. I mean even I mean looking back on it, I was like, I guess it was pretty pretty awful stuff.

Presenter10:04

So what was the first piece of true jazz that you heard? Do you remember?

Stan Tracey10:09

Yeah, it's a piece called Scratching in the Gravel.

Stan Tracey10:13

This belonged to a family.

Stan Tracey10:15

who who were friends, my father.

Stan Tracey10:19

would go drinking with them.

Stan Tracey10:21

and the son and myself would stay at home and they had this

Stan Tracey10:26

A magnificent radiogram.

Stan Tracey10:29

and a pile of records.

Stan Tracey10:32

And then one day I discovered this one.

Stan Tracey10:34

And it just

Stan Tracey10:36

Blew my little mind.

Stan Tracey10:38

and uh I played it to death every time it went over there.

Presenter10:42

And was that the one that you eventually carried around with you every

Stan Tracey10:45

No, no, that was Art Hoaths.

Stan Tracey10:48

I don't remember ever playing it, to tell you the truth. I I I I just carried it around with me.

Stan Tracey10:55

as a sort of a jazz comfort.

Stan Tracey10:57

Because at at that time I'd gone on answer and we'd go round to the factory and

Stan Tracey11:02

Lunch time and punish the workers.

Stan Tracey11:04

I think the idea was to make

Stan Tracey11:07

See work as a good alternative to listening to us.

Presenter11:10

This was you on the accordions.

Stan Tracey11:11

Yeah.

Stan Tracey11:13

So, you know, to have this little record.

Stan Tracey11:16

kept me in touch with

Stan Tracey11:17

what I thought would be my world.

Presenter11:19

Record number three.

Stan Tracey11:22

It's Charlie Parker. Now's the time.

Stan Tracey11:24

I guess you could say he was a genius, really.

Stan Tracey11:27

He uh was part of the Bebop movement.

Stan Tracey11:31

And I've always loved his playing.

Stan Tracey11:34

and I'd like to have this one with me.

Presenter12:06

Charlie Parker, and now's the time. You you weren't evacuated in the war then, Stan. You you stayed at home listening to the neighbours' radio.

Stan Tracey12:13

Here's a

Presenter12:13

Well, why didn't you go?

Stan Tracey12:15

Um

Stan Tracey12:17

My mother didn't want me to go.

Stan Tracey12:19

And uh

Stan Tracey12:20

I didn't want to go either.

Presenter12:21

But did that mean that you didn't have any education after the age of, what, twelve or s

Stan Tracey12:25

Twelve, yeah.

Presenter12:26

and because the teachers went and all the rest of the class went.

Stan Tracey12:29

That's right.

Presenter12:29

But do you have fun, nevertheless?

Stan Tracey12:32

Yes, I did.

Stan Tracey12:34

I thoroughly enjoyed the war.

Stan Tracey12:37

I thought it was great. And you know, the

Stan Tracey12:39

The the thought that

Stan Tracey12:41

You know, we could be killed or injured never occurred to me. It was like being in a film.

Stan Tracey12:47

And

Stan Tracey12:48

During that period.

Stan Tracey12:51

And because I wasn't at school.

Stan Tracey12:54

I used to go to the cinema about four times a week.

Stan Tracey12:58

I used to go to the Streatham Hill Theatre to see all those variety shows.

Stan Tracey13:03

Winwooden Theatre, Brixton Empress.

Stan Tracey13:06

Abkhaz.

Stan Tracey13:07

thoroughly immersed in all that sort of thing.

Presenter13:10

I wonder what it made you feel about life. You must have thought life was a pretty strange business.

Stan Tracey13:17

Well, the films certainly did. They

Stan Tracey13:20

I thought Life was a big movie.

Stan Tracey13:23

I thought, you know, the good guys always came out on top and

Stan Tracey13:28

Bab were punished.

Stan Tracey13:29

And that stuck with me for a long, long time.

Presenter13:32

Don't you believe it any more?

Stan Tracey13:34

Enough.

Presenter13:37

So you you became professional as I think about sixteen when you started playing in these factories you mentioned.

Stan Tracey13:43

Well where were

Presenter13:43

Wh where was your first gig? Do you remember?

Stan Tracey13:45

Yeah, a place called Cosham.

Stan Tracey13:48

But I'd eventually got out of that. I'd I went with a gypsy accordion band.

Stan Tracey13:53

Also on Ensa.

Presenter13:54

Gypsy.

Stan Tracey13:55

Gipsy.

Stan Tracey13:57

and with the full drag.

Stan Tracey13:59

the flared trousers, the make up.

Presenter14:02

But when did you decide that the piano was for you?

Stan Tracey14:05

When I heard Boogie Woogie

Stan Tracey14:07

The guys who traveled with me in that accordion band

Stan Tracey14:11

Had a wind up gramophone.

Stan Tracey14:13

and some old seventy eight all jazz records.

Stan Tracey14:17

And

Stan Tracey14:19

I heard Boogie Woogie for the first time, through them.

Stan Tracey14:23

And I thought this was the greatest thing

Stan Tracey14:26

going and I was determined that I would become a boogie boogie piano player.

Stan Tracey14:32

which I attempted.

Stan Tracey14:34

I nearly succeeded.

Stan Tracey14:36

And then

Stan Tracey14:37

I heard other types of jazz.

Stan Tracey14:39

An

Stan Tracey14:41

went down a different path.

Presenter14:42

So you are having

Presenter14:44

Quite a decent time, really, obviously enjoying yourself. And then finally

Stan Tracey14:45

Yeah, but

Presenter14:48

The RAF police caught up with you. Were you were you attempting to dodge the draft at this stage?

Stan Tracey14:55

They caught up with me in Carlisle.

Stan Tracey14:57

Um to RAF policemen.

Stan Tracey15:00

The leader of the according band.

Stan Tracey15:02

Talk them into Let me Complete the Week.

Stan Tracey15:06

and I reported to RAF Patgate on New Year's Eve, and I remember we ended up at Northolt.

Stan Tracey15:18

you know, a bunch of entertainers, various

Stan Tracey15:22

It was Tony Hancock in charge.

Stan Tracey15:24

And

Stan Tracey15:26

He produced the show.

Stan Tracey15:28

And

Stan Tracey15:29

Then we went off to Egypt and what was then Palestine.

Presenter15:33

But what was he like? What was your impression of him?

Stan Tracey15:36

He's a great guy, um very funny man.

Stan Tracey15:39

As a matter of fact, the last time I saw him

Stan Tracey15:42

was at North Holt, and he was lying on the bed, drunk, swathed in toilet paper, and somebody was trying to set fire to him as a goodbye present.

Presenter15:57

Next piece of music.

Stan Tracey15:59

Duke Ellington.

Stan Tracey16:00

Jukes

Stan Tracey16:02

been a really big influence on my music.

Stan Tracey16:06

Uh I I love listening to everything he does.

Stan Tracey16:09

Um

Stan Tracey16:10

So I have to I have

Stan Tracey16:12

I've selected a piece that

Stan Tracey16:14

I rather

Presenter16:46

Duke Ellington and Mood Indigo. You'd seen Ellington Stan play in New York in the fifties. How did you manage to get there?

Stan Tracey16:55

I

Stan Tracey16:56

Alongside a lot of

Stan Tracey16:58

Jazz players in this country.

Stan Tracey17:00

Got a job on the

Stan Tracey17:02

Queen Mary.

Stan Tracey17:03

and later on the coronia.

Stan Tracey17:06

We used to have about two or three days in New York for the turnaround.

Stan Tracey17:10

And uh

Stan Tracey17:12

Birdland was

Stan Tracey17:14

thriving at that time.

Stan Tracey17:16

and I could hear all those great players for one dollar a night.

Stan Tracey17:21

The original Parker Gillespie quintet with Tommy Potter.

Stan Tracey17:26

Max Roach, Bud Powell.

Stan Tracey17:28

I saw Parker with Strings.

Stan Tracey17:32

All those great names at that time played there and

Stan Tracey17:36

I saw most of them.

Presenter17:38

Dizzy Gillespie, Thelonious Monk.

Stan Tracey17:40

Yes, I saw I didn't see Monk at uh Birdland, I saw him at the Five Spot.

Presenter17:45

And in order to see them there you had to work on the Queen Mary playing music, I presume.

Stan Tracey17:50

Mm-hmm.

Presenter17:51

Playing what?

Stan Tracey17:53

Mostly uh

Stan Tracey17:55

things from the shows, you know, musicals.

Stan Tracey17:59

Terrible music.

Stan Tracey18:00

It was a small price to pay.

Presenter18:02

And and I think a a bit later on you played in the uh in the Ted Heath orchestra, big band. Yeah. I mean, again, presumably you were playing

Stan Tracey18:08

Yeah.

Presenter18:11

All the big numbers swing.

Stan Tracey18:12

Yeah, um, fifty seven to fifty nine I was with Ted.

Stan Tracey18:17

Um

Stan Tracey18:19

I'm gonna upset a lot of Ted Heath fans, but I wasn't crazy about it.

Stan Tracey18:23

Um I found the money terribly attractive.

Stan Tracey18:28

But the music

Stan Tracey18:29

I mean, it was it was good it was

Stan Tracey18:32

It was a good band, it was a good commercial band, it played.

Stan Tracey18:36

Nice arrangements.

Stan Tracey18:38

If you like those sort of nice arrangements.

Stan Tracey18:41

Avenues.

Presenter18:42

But people did. It was incredibly good.

Stan Tracey18:43

Oh, I know, I know. I mean, it still is.

Stan Tracey18:47

I used to make make it more interesting for myself.

Stan Tracey18:51

By

Stan Tracey18:53

making little interjections here and there, musical interjections.

Stan Tracey18:57

Not so that it was like a rou bottle flying round something.

Stan Tracey19:01

But just now and again

Stan Tracey19:04

Little embellishment here and there, just to

Stan Tracey19:07

Keep me awake?

Presenter19:08

And did the big man ever notice?

Stan Tracey19:10

I don't know, he was a little bit mutton chef.

Stan Tracey19:12

Um

Presenter19:13

Who was he?

Stan Tracey19:14

Yes, he was.

Stan Tracey19:16

But uh

Stan Tracey19:17

If he did hear it, he didn't seem to mind.

Presenter19:20

So when did you finally decide I'm not gonna sell myself, compromise myself any more?

Stan Tracey19:26

Right so

Presenter19:27

I'm actually going to go for it. I'm actually going to play the music I want to play and see if I can make a living.

Stan Tracey19:32

What?

Stan Tracey19:34

I've been trying to do that for yonks.

Stan Tracey19:36

But when I left Ted.

Stan Tracey19:38

I had a

Stan Tracey19:40

A small reputation.

Stan Tracey19:42

And then I was asked to to go into Ronnie's

Stan Tracey19:46

And uh it's sort of grown from there.

Presenter19:48

So it was Ronnie Scott who really did the trick for you in the end. He offered you a role.

Stan Tracey19:51

Yeah, I guess

Presenter19:53

Doing the stuff you really wanted to do.

Stan Tracey19:55

Yeah.

Presenter19:56

And you've never done any of the other stuff since.

Stan Tracey19:58

No fear.

Presenter20:00

Next piece of music.

Stan Tracey20:01

Um Felonious Monk.

Stan Tracey20:04

Another influence.

Stan Tracey20:06

I've been fortunate enough to hear.

Stan Tracey20:09

Monk Play Live

Stan Tracey20:10

Quite a few times.

Stan Tracey20:12

A strange character, but a a great musician, great jazz musician, and this is a piece called Little Rooty Tooty.

Presenter20:52

The Lonius Monk and his trio playing Little Rooty Tootie, and that was recorded in nineteen fifty two. Six years or so, then Stan Tracy at Ronnie Scott's and you were burned out. Messed up.

Stan Tracey21:02

Yes.

Presenter21:03

How how bad was it?

Stan Tracey21:03

How about

Stan Tracey21:05

Bad. Um, I was

Stan Tracey21:08

Completely poop.

Stan Tracey21:10

I

Stan Tracey21:12

I did very little for two years.

Stan Tracey21:15

I wanna left on his argus.

Stan Tracey21:18

creeping about.

Stan Tracey21:20

Like an old man.

Presenter21:21

But it wasn't just exhaustion after these six or seven nights a week. It was

Stan Tracey21:25

Certain substances, yes. Um

Stan Tracey21:29

I found it necessary, you know, working all those hours

Stan Tracey21:34

I I I didn't take a holiday in six years.

Stan Tracey21:37

I was

Stan Tracey21:38

So in love with the music and what I was doing.

Stan Tracey21:41

So yes, I did get.

Stan Tracey21:43

Very messed up.

Stan Tracey21:44

Um

Stan Tracey21:46

And, in the end, my wife.

Stan Tracey21:49

called a halt to it, pulled me out.

Presenter21:51

Because you just lost all heart, didn't you?

Stan Tracey21:53

I did, yeah, I

Stan Tracey21:55

I wanted to become a postman.

Stan Tracey21:57

I'll have a nice pension by now.

Stan Tracey22:00

It had appealed to me just sort of walking about, delivering letters, not talking to anybody.

Stan Tracey22:06

And I actually made

Stan Tracey22:07

An application which my wife got hold of and destroyed. I really have to say

Stan Tracey22:14

A big thank you to her.

Presenter22:17

This is Jackie, your wife, and in fact she did pull you out of it because she set up something called the Musicians' Action Group.

Stan Tracey22:18

Yeah.

Stan Tracey22:23

That's right, young.

Presenter22:24

What did that do? How did it help?

Stan Tracey22:27

Well

Stan Tracey22:28

Its aim was to

Stan Tracey22:31

Put on jazz concerts.

Stan Tracey22:33

and to make people more aware of the music.

Stan Tracey22:37

We actually uh started up a summer school we, my wife and Hazel Miller.

Stan Tracey22:42

um who was the wife of of a bass player.

Stan Tracey22:46

They started a summer school, jazz summer school.

Stan Tracey22:50

you know, just made work.

Stan Tracey22:51

for the guys who were around at that time.

Presenter22:55

And it really the culmination of that, if you like, was I uh was it not this this uh thirtieth anniversary concert of yours, the nineteen seventy three concert.

Stan Tracey23:02

The nineteenth centur

Presenter23:04

And that's where it got you to.

Speaker 123:04

Yeah.

Stan Tracey23:04

And that's what

Presenter23:05

Was it at at that moment when that concert happened in'73 th that, you know, you you turned around yourself really then?

Stan Tracey23:13

Well, I wasn't aware of it at the time, you know, but looking back on it I I guess it was, yeah.

Stan Tracey23:19

I guess my f fortunes.

Stan Tracey23:21

Change a little after that, yeah.

Presenter23:24

But I mean when you were really down at the bottom, you were on social security, you couldn't pay the gas bill and all the rest of it.

Stan Tracey23:29

Yeah.

Speaker 323:29

Yeah.

Presenter23:30

Of course, during your time you had had offers, you could have taken offers to make commercial recordings and so on.

Stan Tracey23:37

What is this?

Presenter23:38

You didn't because it wasn't what you wanted to do.

Stan Tracey23:41

That's right.

Presenter23:42

Is there in a sense you know, do you feel you paid the price for being too purist about it all?

Stan Tracey23:50

Not really. Not I am.

Stan Tracey23:52

quite selfish um when it when it comes to music.

Stan Tracey23:55

I didn't even consider it.

Stan Tracey23:57

And certainly Jackie didn't.

Stan Tracey23:59

get on to me to do it. I mean, she believed totally in what I was doing, still does. Um, I can fool her, I can fool fool anybody.

Presenter24:09

Record number six.

Stan Tracey24:12

This is a piece of African music.

Stan Tracey24:16

I used to hang out with a

Stan Tracey24:17

A musician called Kenny Graham.

Stan Tracey24:20

He was very much into African music.

Stan Tracey24:23

You know, and we used to have big big discussions about how jazz came from Africa.

Stan Tracey24:28

And

Stan Tracey24:29

We used to stay up all hours trying to work out the music.

Stan Tracey24:34

Take it apart, see what made it work.

Stan Tracey24:37

I think we failed most of the time, but I certainly enjoyed listening to it and I still do.

Presenter25:14

Festival music from the album Music of East Africa. So give me your take on uh jazz in the nineteen nineties, Stan. Is it alive and well, or has it got watered down, corrupted?

Stan Tracey25:25

It's alive and well.

Stan Tracey25:27

Um there a

Stan Tracey25:29

A lot of young players coming up.

Presenter25:31

But where is it? I mean, is there jazz o on the radio or on the television that you would endorse as as being the real thing?

Stan Tracey25:39

Well, jazz on the radio, I have to say it's only just on the radio.

Stan Tracey25:44

At other one.

Stan Tracey25:45

I don't want to start knocking Radio Three.

Stan Tracey25:48

Hope to get on there one day.

Stan Tracey25:50

Um

Stan Tracey25:52

There's not a lot of jazz, no I cannot tell a lie.

Presenter25:56

And on the television?

Stan Tracey25:58

Hardly at all.

Stan Tracey25:59

Th there was a recent series.

Stan Tracey26:01

Jazz six oh six

Stan Tracey26:05

Some

Stan Tracey26:07

Some elements of that were okay, others.

Stan Tracey26:11

But

Presenter26:12

So it's underexploited on on the mainstream channels. Why do you think that is?

Stan Tracey26:14

Yeah.

Stan Tracey26:17

I think people are frightened to put it on.

Stan Tracey26:21

The the

Stan Tracey26:23

They don't think there's an audience for it.

Stan Tracey26:26

And the

Stan Tracey26:27

You know

Stan Tracey26:29

Unless you really put it on in a serious way.

Stan Tracey26:32

I don't know how you're gonna find out if there's an audience for it.

Presenter26:34

But the obvious example that springs to mind, and and I don't want to be too specific, but I mean Jules Holland has has got a very successful programme that that we, the ordinary public, believe to be about jazz.

Stan Tracey26:45

There isn't.

Stan Tracey26:47

Isn't about Jazz at all.

Stan Tracey26:50

It's about something else.

Stan Tracey26:52

Something that isn't jazz.

Stan Tracey26:55

It's it's about

Stan Tracey26:57

Pop music.

Presenter26:58

which has its roots in jazz. It's diluted jazz.

Stan Tracey27:02

Great dilution, yes.

Stan Tracey27:04

Trace elements.

Presenter27:06

Well, is that then the sad truth, that in order for jazz to appeal to a big audience, it has to be diluted, it has to be commercialized in some way?

Stan Tracey27:15

Well, when w w when they put on a concert of classical music, nobody says, Oh, we ought to

Stan Tracey27:22

Do a watered-down version of this.

Stan Tracey27:24

They just don't seem to have the confidence in letting the band play and

Stan Tracey27:29

Letting people listen to the music.

Presenter27:31

And who do you blame for that?

Stan Tracey27:34

I blame.

Stan Tracey27:36

The Establishment.

Stan Tracey27:38

I blame the B B C.

Presenter27:40

What about the mainstream record companies? Do they carry any culpability in all of this, do you think?

Stan Tracey27:48

Yes, I think they do.

Stan Tracey27:51

Really i th th they they're only interested in stuff that will sell.

Stan Tracey27:56

I don't know.

Stan Tracey27:58

10,000, 20,000 copies in the first week, maybe more, you know, Beetle reissues.

Stan Tracey28:03

People queue around the block.

Stan Tracey28:06

Jazz is not

Stan Tracey28:08

That type of

Stan Tracey28:10

Product.

Stan Tracey28:13

Over the years.

Stan Tracey28:15

You know

Stan Tracey28:16

You will attain good sales.

Stan Tracey28:18

But it it's not in the first month, but it's not a great loss for them to

Stan Tracey28:25

Put out a jazz album that's a slow seller.

Stan Tracey28:28

You know, they they they get their goodies from the other stuff. Um Sony have just recorded a British artist for the first time in thirty years.

Stan Tracey28:40

Um

Stan Tracey28:42

You know, I think it's pretty sad.

Presenter28:44

Record number seven.

Stan Tracey28:46

This is Stravinsky's

Stan Tracey28:48

Protrushka. Um no particular reason for this one, I just happen to like Stlavinsky.

Presenter29:53

Part of the opening of Stravinsky's ballet Petrushka, played by the New York Philharmonic conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter29:59

Stan, you've recorded more than forty albums, most of them your own compositions, over the past twenty five years. You've played across the world, you know, internationally, in all sorts of contexts quartets, octets, big bands. What's your favorite?

Stan Tracey30:13

Caught it

Stan Tracey30:14

With larger groups th there's a certain amount of structure.

Stan Tracey30:19

But with a quartet.

Stan Tracey30:21

If you're playing with the right people, the music can go anywhere, at any time.

Presenter30:26

And you're just so into each other that you you know exactly what the others are doing.

Stan Tracey30:30

Yeah.

Presenter30:32

Especially if the drummer's your son.

Stan Tracey30:34

Yes, that really does help, yeah.

Presenter30:36

Did you his his name's Clark, Clark Tracy, did you rear him specially for the purpose?

Stan Tracey30:42

Yeah, it's it's strange. You know, w when he was born

Stan Tracey30:46

I just naturally assumed that he would be Tama jazz musician. I didn't think he would do ever do anything else.

Stan Tracey30:52

Um

Stan Tracey30:54

He heard jazz from

Stan Tracey30:56

Day one

Stan Tracey30:58

And he's been hearing it ever since. No, I'm I'm very.

Stan Tracey31:04

Very proud, really.

Presenter31:05

You've said that he's the drummer I've been looking for all my life.

Stan Tracey31:08

Yeah.

Stan Tracey31:09

Yes, he is.

Stan Tracey31:11

He knows.

Stan Tracey31:12

Everything I'm gonna do before I know it.

Stan Tracey31:16

Um which is

Stan Tracey31:17

bit disconcerting at times. I mean, he really does.

Stan Tracey31:21

Sometimes I'll I'll do something and he's right with me'cause he knew I was gonna do it.

Stan Tracey31:25

And I thought, oh, wasn't it terrible to be that predictable?

Presenter31:29

So, this is the unpredictable bit. We cast you away. Will you.

Stan Tracey31:33

Um

Presenter31:33

Be able to look after yourself on this desert island? Can you you know, are you practical in any way?

Stan Tracey31:38

Not

Presenter31:39

You can't cook.

Stan Tracey31:40

No, no, I I'm totally useless.

Presenter31:41

No

Presenter31:43

You don't do anything except play the piano.

Stan Tracey31:46

Rather well.

Presenter31:46

Father.

Presenter31:49

So you couldn't catch a fish, knock up a hut, nothing.

Stan Tracey31:52

I could shout at one.

Presenter31:54

So what are you going to do on this item?

Stan Tracey31:56

Well

Stan Tracey31:57

Sun bleached bones come to mine

Stan Tracey32:00

I d I think I would expire.

Stan Tracey32:03

After about a month.

Presenter32:04

Gonna curl up and die.

Stan Tracey32:06

I I wouldn't have any choice.

Presenter32:08

Last record.

Stan Tracey32:10

is by Clark, it's his composition and arrangement.

Stan Tracey32:14

Um his sex debt and it's called Sherman at the Copthorn.

Presenter32:49

The Clark Tracy Sextet and Sherman at the Copthorne. If you could only take one of those records, Stan, which one would you take?

Stan Tracey32:55

It would be the Ellington.

Presenter32:58

Um now the Bible and Shakespeare are there waiting for you. You know that, don't you?

Stan Tracey33:00

Waiting for you.

Presenter33:02

What other book would you like to take?

Stan Tracey33:04

Uh I'd like to take

Stan Tracey33:06

Crazy Like a Fox by S. J. Perum.

Presenter33:09

Yeah.

Speaker 333:09

What?

Presenter33:09

Yeah.

Stan Tracey33:10

It makes me smile.

Stan Tracey33:12

His humour appeals to me.

Stan Tracey33:14

You know, he he used to do the scripts for some of the Marx Brothers films.

Stan Tracey33:20

'Cause I wish that sort of humour and I like it.

Presenter33:22

And your luxury?

Stan Tracey33:24

It would be a video of the film.

Stan Tracey33:27

Oh, mister Porter

Stan Tracey33:29

Which I

Stan Tracey33:31

I absolutely adore that film, I've seen it so many times and I never get tired of watching it.

Presenter33:38

Stan Tracy, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Stan Tracey33:41

Thank you.

Speaker 133:50

You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs Archive. For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.