Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Desert Island Discs
Presented by Sue Lawley
A former champion jockey turned novelist, best known for his bestselling horse racing mysteries and the famous Devon Loch collapse in the 1956 Grand National.
Eight records
Joanna MacGregor & London Symphony Orchestra
When I was a child It came out in the early twenties and I loved it. I loved the tune and it was so popular it was played on the radio quite there was no television in those days, but it was played on the radio and I listened to it a lot and I I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Chattanooga Choo ChooFavourite
I love Glenn Miller's version of this. It's always been my favourite and whenever we go somewhere they say to me, what would you like to play? I say the Chattanooga Choo-Choo.
my grandson, who is only twelve, William. He loves playing the trumpet and unfortunately he's not uh competent enough to play it for the radio th this time. But uh you know Whenever I hear it, I'll think of William.
I'd love to see Peter O'Toole riding across the horizon on his horse, then he's coming towards you. And it's it's uh opening music to the Lawrence of Arabia.
My father-in-law took us all, Mary and me and the rest of his family, to see this show. O Oklahoma, the week before we got married. I was there with my arm in a sling, very uncomfortable, but I remember hard keels singing this Oh, what a beautiful morning It's terrific.
I Left My Heart in San Francisco
There's so much of my life as a jockey goes into all the books. And also, you know, my research, you know, I've traveled the world quite a lot. I went to Russia, did some research there for trial run and I've been lots of places and I wanted to see San Francisco. It was beautiful, really, lovely place and I left my heart there.
we go down to Devon every year for our holiday. All the family come, children, grandchildren. And this last year we were there and a young fellow used to come in and play instruments he had for music and he sang and our granddaughter Bianca, she she sings quite a lot, and we tried to persuade her to sing, get this fellow to play a tune and sing. And it was absolutely beautiful.
Kathleen Battle & Orchestra of St. Luke's
a tune which is a beautiful tune, uh Summertime. Uh Kathleen Battle singing it, and it's the Orchestra of St. Luke's conducted by Andre Preven. It's it's a lovely tune.
The keepsakes
The book
George Lambton
My book is an old book, but it's it means a lot to me because I I read it some years ago. It was written by George Lambton. Men and Horses I Have Known.
In conversation
Presenter asks
Why has writing never given you the same pleasure as being a jockey?
Yes, I suppose I have [had much greater success as a writer]… I rode racing for ten years. And I I did become champion jockey… Writing, to me, is hard work. It's hard mental work. I think I've been more of a physical character all my life rather than a mental character.
Presenter asks
Take me through [the Devon Loch incident in the 1956 Grand National].
Devenlock pricked his ears to have a look at the water, which was on the left. We were galloping past it… And he pricked his ears to sort of have another look at it. As he pricked his ears, the crescendo hit him, this crescendo of cheering hit him, God and it frightened him to such an extent that his hind quarters refused to act for a split second, and he slid along the ground with his forefeet out in front of him and his hind feet out behind… during the the fall, He'd pulled all the muscles in his hind quarters and he more or less collapsed again and his hind quarters gave way and I had to get off him and walk away in disgust.
The recording
Timestamps play the recording from that turn
Speaker 2
Hello, I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For rights reasons we've had to shorten the music. The programme was originally broadcast in nineteen ninety eight, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.
Presenter
My Castaway this week is a novelist. World famous for his stories about horse racing, the public will never forget him riding Devon Loch, owned by the Queen Mother, in the 1956 Grand National. The horse, well into the lead on the home strait, sank to the ground fifty yards from the finishing post. Not long after, injuries forced the jockey into retirement as well, but since then, once a year, he's written a book. They've all got horses in them, most of them have been bestsellers, and the Queen Mother always gets a copy.
Presenter
He's worried now he's seventy eight whether he can keep up his strike rate. But then being an author, however successful, is still second best for him. I'd rather be a jockey any day, he says. He is Dick Francis. Do you still ride, Dick, if only for fun?
Dick Francis
No, Sue. I'm afraid I haven't ridden for about ten or fifteen years. Do you miss it?
Dick Francis
Um not really. No, I'm it's it's a young man's job. It's like flying airplanes. It's a young man's job and
Presenter
So young man
Dick Francis
I I I like walking along the beach every morning and uh having a swim.
Presenter
But just explain to me, I wonder why writing has never given you the same pleasure as being a jockey. After all, you've had much greater success as a writer than you did as a jockey.
Dick Francis
Yes, I suppose I have. Um I've been at it longer. I I rode racing for ten years. And I I did become champion jockey, I know and
Dick Francis
I I won quite a few races, except the one race I wanted to win. But
Dick Francis
Writing, to me, is hard work. It's hard mental work.
Dick Francis
I think I've been more of a physical character all my life rather than a mental character.
Presenter
So you just don't get that adrenaline buzz that you would get before a race, even when your book is a bestseller.
Dick Francis
No, I I don't. And when I finish a book, or coming towards the finish, I say to Mary, my wife, I think, I w I wonder how this is going to be received and and I'm very worried until it is published and the reviews come out so far they've all been very good.
Presenter
So it's not like coming up that home straight thinking, hey, this is a winner.
Dick Francis
No, it it it's more long lasting that and and worrying.
Presenter
But you're very diligent about it. You've done it every year. For thirty seven years, you deliver uh the script, I think, on the dot, may the first, to your publisher, and in July, hot off the presses, the Queen Mum gets her copy. Do you deliver it in person?
Dick Francis
I have done. In the last couple of years, it it's been a little bit later and she's gone up to Scotland before she received it. But usually I've been able to have it ready by the last Saturday in July, and we always go to ask at races for the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth stakes. And we're inv Mary and I are invited up in the royal box and I hand over the new copy. And the next time I see them, they always remark about it.
Presenter
So you know they've read it.
Dick Francis
Yes, I do. Yes.
Presenter
Tell me about your first record.
Dick Francis
Rhapsody in Blue. When I was a child
Dick Francis
It came out in the early twenties and I loved it. I loved the tune and it was so popular it was played on the radio quite there was no television in those days, but it was played on the radio and I listened to it a lot and I I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Presenter
Joanna McGregor and the London Symphony Orchestra playing Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue conducted by Carl Davis. So let's go back, Dick, to you in the saddle and to that fateful day in 1956, the Grand National, as you've written yourself, a post-mortem one day might find the words Devon Loch engraved on your heart. Take me through it. You knew the horse, Devon Loch, didn't you? You'd had your eye on him for some time.
Dick Francis
Oh, the first time I rode him, I rode him in a hurdle race, and I said to Peter Caslitt, the trainer, I said, I'd love to ride this horse in the National one day.
Presenter
So you knew he had staying powerful, which is the great requirement for the grandmaster.
Dick Francis
Oh yes.
Dick Francis
Yes, I did.
Dick Francis
When we were in the paddock before the race, Peter Cassett said to me, Well, Dick, he said, I won't tell you anything about it. You know all about Aintri, you've been around here enough times. He said, Always have him handy and
Dick Francis
The best of luck, he said. I can't say any more.
Presenter
So there was huge expectation, obviously. You feel the weight of responsibility. And again, it was Queen Mum's horse. Was she there in the parade?
Dick Francis
Yes, she was. The Queen was there, too, and Princess Margaret were there they were they were all up in the royal box.
Presenter
Did they speak to you before the race?
Dick Francis
Oh, yes, they did, yes, and you know, good luck and hope for the best.
Presenter
I mean it it it was expected definitely you can't predict the granular
Dick Francis
You can't predict the Grand National, but he was about the second or third favourite. The favourite, I think, was a horse called Must, who fell at the first fence, actually. And.
Dick Francis
I remember jumping Valentine's jump.
Dick Francis
The first time round, we'd gone about a mile by this time, and I followed a horse called Dermatar into the fence. I thought, well, I'm following the safe jumper here because I'd ridden Dermatar many times. He was trained by Frank Cundel, and Derek Ansel was riding him. I thought, I'm quite happy to follow him.
Dick Francis
Well, actually Dermatar fell right in front of me.
Dick Francis
And Devonlock landed and he took off again over Dermatar. You know, in just one stride and he took off.
Presenter
So he was very relaxed, this horse, because usually the Grand National there's a lot obviously, you know, jockeys kicking them on, there's a lot of thrashing about.
Dick Francis
Yes, he he was very relaxed all the time and uh after that incident we came round and jumped the chair fence which is the biggest jump in the on the course right in front of the stands and he jumped it brilliantly. And we went into the second last fence. I jumped it beautifully and then ESB the eventual winner came up
Dick Francis
more or less alongside me going into the last fence. I was still going beautifully, and Devonock jumped it beautifully. And as I jumped the last fence I could hear this crescendo of cheering building up.
Dick Francis
on the stands and and
Dick Francis
It was like going into the neck of a funnel. The s crowds on the buses and the sherabangs were on the inside and the crowds on the grandstand were on the outside. And I thought no more of this.
Presenter
I mean, you're on the
Dick Francis
Uh
Presenter
No more.
Dick Francis
You never think you won until you passed the post, but I I felt fairly confident I was going to win.
Presenter
And it was the most perfect.
Dick Francis
Moment. It's what you'd always wanted to be. Absolutely. And then we got level just as we were approaching the water jump.
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
Absolutely.
Dick Francis
I'm sure this is what happened. Devenlock pricked his ears to have a look at the water, which was on the left. We were galloping past it.
Presenter
You didn't have to jump it that he just spotted it out of the corner.
Dick Francis
Did that me?
Dick Francis
He jumped it the first time round.
Presenter
Mm.
Dick Francis
And he pricked his ears to sort of have another look at it. As he pricked his ears, the crescendo hit him, this crescendo of cheering hit him, God and it frightened him to such an extent that his hind quarters refused to act for a split second, and he slid along the ground with his forefeet out in front of him and his hind feet out behind.
Presenter
And
Dick Francis
And I was still far enough in front to have won if I could have got him going again. But during the the fall,
Dick Francis
He'd pulled all the muscles in his hind quarters and he more or less collapsed again and his hind quarters gave way and I had to get off him and walk away in disgust.
Presenter
Disgust was it disgust or surely so much more
Dick Francis
Well it was heartbreaking, really. I I I was in a daze.
Presenter
Did you share it here?
Dick Francis
I don't think I shed a tear, but people always say I I cried, but I don't think I did. And I was walking back towards the exit for the course,
Dick Francis
And I could see everyone rushing towards me for sort of inquests. And then an ambulance driver
Dick Francis
came alongside me and he said, Jump in the back, mate, and I was never more pleased to get in an ambulance in all my life.
Presenter
All my life.
Dick Francis
Tell me about your second record. Well, the second record is
Dick Francis
The Chattanooga Choo-Choo and I love Glenn Miller's version of this. It's always been my favourite and whenever we go somewhere they say to me, what would you like to play? I say the Chattanooga Choo-Choo.
Speaker 3
There's gonna be a certain party at the station.
Speaker 3
Back and unlay.
Speaker 3
I used to call funny face.
Speaker 3
She's gonna cry until I tell her that I'll never run.
Speaker 3
Look, cat new kaju ju want you me, huh?
Presenter
Glenn Miller Orchestra and Chattanooga Choo Choo, and that was recorded in 1941.
Presenter
Well, now, Dick, your first mount was a donkey, I understand. How old would you have been when you got up on his back?
Dick Francis
I suppose I was about four or five. My brother bet me sixpence that I wouldn't sit on the donkey facing his tail and he would chase the donkey donkey over a jump, you know. Back with you backwards, I think. Wouldn't with me sitting backwards. Well, I fell off six times, but uh
Dick Francis
I did win my sixpence, in the end I was determined, so I was a professional jockey from that day on.
Presenter
When did you decide that you wanted to ride in the Grand National? Because I think that's a good idea.
Dick Francis
Oh quite early on.
Dick Francis
I think probably in nineteen twenty eight. I remember
Dick Francis
It it wasn't
Dick Francis
On television in in those days, but it was broadcast, the Grand National, and uh I remember playing cricket.
Dick Francis
outside my grandfather's farm in Pembrokeshire. And um
Dick Francis
The Grand National was broadcast, so we stopped playing cricket, and I went in and listened to Tipperary Tim winning the Grand National.
Presenter
But you'd have been tiny. You'd have been what, eight, about eight? Eight, I mean.
Dick Francis
Eight, and I wasn't very big in that.
Presenter
What was it that appealed to you? What what was it you heard that you learned?
Dick Francis
I think it was the competitiveness of the Grand National because
Presenter
Yeah.
Dick Francis
You know, it it was on the radio and in the newspapers and I I I got a very competitive spirit. I I hate being beaten.
Speaker 3
Hmm.
Dick Francis
And when when I was driving the races in the car in my own car, I hated to be si line second to someone going along. I always had the parson. Mary says, You must be in front all the time, mustn't you? I said, Yes.
Presenter
But how did you know you were going to be the right size to be a jockey?
Dick Francis
I I wasn't very big in those days. We know of a great friend of the family who was a man called Bert Rich.
Dick Francis
He was had a lot to do with
Dick Francis
Flat race horses. He kept saying to my father and mother, give him gin, keep him small. Mother hated the thought of me drinking gin, but he said there's a great future for him on the flat. Well, I didn't particularly think that was a great idea. I didn't like the flat. I like jumping obstacles. And my father had been a jockey before the First World War.
Presenter
Yeah.
Dick Francis
hadn't hit the highlights, but he'd been quite a successful jockeying.
Presenter
But did he give you lessons, John Frank? Did you ever
Dick Francis
No, no, he I've never had a riding lesson in my life. Uh he'd throw me up on a pony and say, Go on, do this, do this, kick him in the belly, Dick.
Presenter
And you were with horses all your life. Your father, I think, ran a stable, didn't he?
Dick Francis
He was a horse dealer and did very, very well.
Dick Francis
Used to go out, not the present Prince of Wales, the Duke of Windsor before he was the Duke of Windsor, of course, when he was Prince Edward.
Presenter
Boo!
Presenter
Didn't you also t train ponies for the young princesses, Margaret and Elizabeth?
Dick Francis
Yes, I did. Yes. That was the first time I had anything to do with the
Dick Francis
Royal family, really.
Presenter
Tell me about your third record.
Dick Francis
Well, the third recorder is
Dick Francis
The trumpet voluntary, because my grandson, who is only twelve, William.
Dick Francis
He loves playing the trumpet and unfortunately he's not uh
Dick Francis
competent enough to play it for the radio th this time. But uh you know
Dick Francis
Whenever I hear it, I'll think of William. He's quite a quite a character, too.
Presenter
The opening of Jeremiah Clarke's Trumpet Voluntary. I think you were twelve when you had a really bad fall and your teeth dick ended uh up somewhere behind your nose, didn't you?
Dick Francis
Yes, so a pony called Tulip. It had a bit of a reputation of rearing up and I was riding it one day and it reared up with me. It was in the riding school at Hollyport and went straight up and came back on top of me and the and the panel of the saddle caught my fa mouth and face and nose.
Presenter
Oh.
Dick Francis
It was the first time I broke my nose. I've broken it four times since then.
Presenter
And how many times have you broken how many other things?
Dick Francis
Oh, I don't know. Co collarbones were
Dick Francis
uh six times each side and lots of ribs and uh my arm
Dick Francis
Wrist, but fortunately, my legs have always been quite all right. I've always been
Presenter
So you got off lightly, really on the for a steeplechase jockey.
Dick Francis
Yeah, for a steam.
Dick Francis
I broke my skull a couple of times, I think.
Presenter
Oh hit.
Presenter
But you mentioned confidence. Surely if you've broken you know, when you're racing, if you've broken so many bits and pieces, the fear as you're about to fall what goes through your head when you're falling.
Dick Francis
Oh, you never think you're going to be hurt. You always think you've got get away with it and
Dick Francis
You're
Dick Francis
Y you see, w in the days when I was riding, if you broke your collarbone, you just say, Well, I've got a few days off and uh and then you come back as soon as you fit feel fit again.
Presenter
So you don't feel that fear? After all, you must hit the ground at quite a speed.
Dick Francis
Well, hit the ground about thirty miles an hour. And you see, when you're riding, say, three or four hundred races a year, you hit the ground about thirty or forty times a year.
Presenter
But I presume it's not hitting the ground, it's the other horses coming up behind that are the real danger.
Dick Francis
Well, that is the the most dangerous, yes. Uh
Dick Francis
I I remember
Dick Francis
I had a fall at Cheltenham one year and the horse put his foot on my face and I cut my face open right from the left side of my left eye right the end of my nose. I had thirty six stitches in it. Nowadays they wouldn't let you do it, but I rode a winner two days later.
Presenter
Can you remember your first really big win?
Dick Francis
Yeah.
Dick Francis
Um one of the most satisfying wins was at Kempton Park one boxing day.
Dick Francis
when I was riding Lord Bister's Fenure.
Dick Francis
in the King George VI chase. I'd been second the year before to Cottage Rake.
Dick Francis
who was the kingpin of steeplechasers at that time, trained by Vincent O'Brien in Ireland. And I remember beating him half a lenton. It was a very, very satisfying day, that was for me.
Dick Francis
I I think I wrote him
Dick Francis
Oh, seven or eight times and he won every time, except the last time.
Dick Francis
When I thought I was going to win the Grand National on him.
Dick Francis
And it was the year when ten horses fell at the first fence. I was number ten.
Presenter
Tell me about your next piece of music.
Dick Francis
Lawrence of Arabia, I'd love to see Peter O'Toole riding across the horizon on his horse, then he's coming towards you. And it's it's uh opening music to the Lawrence of Arabia.
Presenter
The London Philharmonic Orchestra playing part of the overture to David Lean's film of Lawrence of Arabia, composed and conducted by Maurice Jarre. You spent some of the war in the desert, in fact, didn't you, David?
Dick Francis
Yes, I spent two years in the Middle East, in the desert. When I joined up in 1940, it was, my father knew Colonel Joe Dudgeon, who was Commander-in-Chief of the Scots Greys in Edinburgh. Father spoke to him and Colonel Dudgeon said, send him up to me. He said, I'll get him in the cavalry. So I went to the recruiting office at Reading. And the recruiting officer said, well, what do you want to be? I said, well, I joined the army. I want to go up to Edinburgh to the Scots Greys up there.
Dick Francis
He said if you're going to join the army you'll go where you're sent, boy.
Dick Francis
So I said, All right, I won't join the army, so I joined the Air Force instead. And I wanted to be a pilot, you see, or air crew, and they said, No, they haven't got any openings for air crew at the moment. If you join up with the trade, you can soon remuster.
Dick Francis
So I kept putting in an application for flying duties and the c commander officer, every time you put in an application, you had to see him.
Presenter
But it's another case of dogged determination, isn't it? Because you you got there in the everything.
Dick Francis
A shit.
Dick Francis
Every every month I put in a new a application. When he got fed up with this so he sent me down to Rhodesia, which now Zimbabwe, and I did my flying training down there as a fighter pilot. And uh they took me as a guinea pig. I was a pilot officer and they also took a sergeant pilot and took us straight from Spitfires and put us on to Wellington bombers without doing any dual instruction in between.
Presenter
Is there a comparison to be made, I wonder, between riding a horse and flying a a a plane like that?
Dick Francis
They always say people who ride well or have got good hands, as they call it, are very good with the control column in their hands. You can sort of if you're a good horseman, you stop a horse going to do what he probably intended to do before he does it. Because you sense it and you feel it through your hands. And it's the same with an air aeroplane. You can tense whether it's going to drop a wing or one wing or the other or stall. You can tense it.
Presenter
Because you sense he's going to be.
Dick Francis
through your hands before before it does it and you correct it.
Presenter
Then after the war you met and married Mary fifty one years ago, and I gather even on your honeymoon you had your arm in a sling.
Dick Francis
Yes, I broke my broke my collarbone for the first time.
Presenter
BAP
Presenter
Not a good honeymoon this
Dick Francis
The first time you break it is always the worst. You don't know how
Dick Francis
how l long it's going to get before it's better. But I broke it the week before I got married for the first time.
Presenter
How did she put up with you? I mean, for the first decade of your marriage you you were racing. It must have been really very difficult for her. Did she come? Did she watch? Did she hide?
Dick Francis
She came with me all the time. Even before we got married, she came up to Cheshire and she lived up there in another house and and she was to come racing with me and the farmers and trainers up there were very, very hospitable and kind. She didn't like it. Well, perhaps so, but she uh
Dick Francis
eventually became used to it and indeed I remember one day at Hurst Park races I dislocated my shoulder in the first race and I was taken to the med the ambulance room, medical room.
Dick Francis
And uh
Dick Francis
The doctor couldn't put it in. I said to him, send for my wife. She's outside.
Dick Francis
So she came in and the doctor watched her put it back.
Dick Francis
Yeah.
Presenter
More me
Dick Francis
Mm-hmm.
Dick Francis
Well
Dick Francis
Oh, what a beautiful morning
Dick Francis
My father-in-law took us all, Mary and me and the rest of his family, to see this show.
Dick Francis
O Oklahoma, the week before we got married. I was there with my arm in a sling, very uncomfortable, but I remember hard keels singing this Oh, what a beautiful morning It's terrific.
Speaker 3
There's a bright golden haze on the middle There's a bright golden haze on the middle
Speaker 3
The corn is his high is an elephant side And it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky
Presenter
Howard Keel and Oh, what a beautiful morning
Presenter
Life, Dick Francis, seems to have um mirrored art on occasions in the case of your books because you wrote a story, for example, about a bomb scare at the Grand National back in the eighties, years before it happened.
Dick Francis
Yeah.
Presenter
And also, I think on that occasion, the money w in your story, the money was taken from the tills in the toad.
Dick Francis
Yes, it was, but I I don't think that was the case when it a actually happened at the Grand Management.
Presenter
No, but the tote have changed their tills.
Dick Francis
Yes, I have.
Presenter
Suddenly spotted that if everybody clears out, then the tills are there for up for grabs, as it were.
Dick Francis
Until
Dick Francis
Yeah.
Presenter
But there are several other examples of of lessons, good and bad, I think, i in your stories. Of course you wrote about the kidnapping of a thoroughbred horse.
Dick Francis
That w happened in Blood Sport, actually. And I was accused of giving the kidnappers of Schergard the idea, but I I don't think I I don't think I did.
Presenter
But do you ever worry that you might give people ideas? I suppose that that is inevitably what one thinks.
Dick Francis
Well, I said to the senior steward of the jockey club one time, Lord Cadugham, not the present Lord Cadugham, but his father, I said, am I doing racing an injustice? He said, oh no, he said, people read your books and they think, oh, we must go to the races. He said, you've encouraged a lot of people to go to the races.
Presenter
But inevitably you're writing from your own experience and that's why the books are so convincing and so good, because you're writing about what you know.
Dick Francis
Great.
Presenter
So you don't only only get the glamour and the excitement, you do get the shadiness and the corruption as well.
Dick Francis
Oh yes, y yes you do. There isn't so much now. They've got a very good security service in the Jockey Club over here n in England, and I think it's very good now.
Presenter
In English.
Presenter
But were you in your time ever asked to pull up a horse?
Dick Francis
I was once I was riding one for my brother at Bangorondee where I had a lot of success and uh someone telephoned my brother the night before the races and he they put a proposition to him that I should stop the horse the next day and my brother said to them, Go to hell.
Dick Francis
Whenever I went out to ride, I went out to win. And it had to be a good idea.
Presenter
But she knew that others did it.
Dick Francis
Yes, I did know that others did it. And but they the jockeys that do that sort of thing don't get very far really, but their characters
Presenter
But were there did you know people around the race courses that you knew were actually quite frightening, you know, potentially dangerous for you?
Dick Francis
I didn't know them personally, but I knew of them. And I I didn't mix with those sort of people myself. But it
Dick Francis
There's nothing I've written about in my stories, and there have been some very shady characters in them. There's nothing impossible in them at all, I can assure you.
Presenter
There's nothing
Presenter
Tell me about your sixth record.
Dick Francis
There's so much of my life as a jockey goes into all the books. And also, you know, my research, you know, I've traveled the world quite a lot. I went to Russia, did some research there for trial run and I've been lots of places and I wanted to see San Francisco. It was beautiful, really, lovely place and I left my heart there.
Speaker 3
When I come home to you.
Speaker 3
San Francisco!
Speaker 3
Your golden sun will shine for
Speaker 3
Only
Presenter
Tony Bennett and I Left My Heart in San Francisco. I'm told if you'd had entirely your own way about all of these eight records, Dick, we'd have been listening to my old man's a Dustman, is that?
Presenter
The family put you off that one, didn't they?
Dick Francis
The fact
Dick Francis
Yeah, I think so.
Presenter
Yeah, because it is a kind of cottage industry, isn't it? The the the Dick Francis um i business, as it were, because your wife, as you say, helps you and
Dick Francis
Yes, and she she loves researching new things. When I wrote Flying Finish, um I thought what a good idea it was flying horses about the world. And uh I c kept going along to Oxford Airport, which was a tr flying training school, to get up to date flying regulations because I'd been flying a decade sooner and they'd changed.
Dick Francis
And the instructors there said, oh, why don't you start again? He said, you'll soon get your license back.
Dick Francis
It'll all come back to you. I said I just haven't got time. I I'm writing for the Sunday Express every week.
Dick Francis
And I'm also writing the novels. I haven't got time to do any flying training.
Dick Francis
Well send your wife along for a few lessons.
Presenter
It's a merry learner.
Dick Francis
Mary went along, she became a very good pilot, she got an instrument rating and was one of the few women in those days to get in a
Presenter
What else have you sent her to do with in the cause of your writing?
Dick Francis
Oh, um Mary also did quite a lot with computers before I started using them and for Twice Shire. And Felix, my son, my young he put us on to that. He was reading
Dick Francis
uh computers at university at the time.
Presenter
So it's all in the family.
Dick Francis
Well very much so.
Presenter
What about you, Dick? One one of your best characters, to my mind anyway, is is is Sid Halley, the jockey turned sleuth, and he's cropped up in I think at least three of the books. He's struggling against dishonesty and greed and the lust for power and so on. I just wonder how much of you there is in him. Certainly he can he can cope with a lot of pain, our Sid, can't he?
Speaker 3
Uh
Speaker 2
Uh B
Presenter
He's also incredibly tidy and well ordered, and congratulates himself from time to time on being so. Is that you?
Dick Francis
I'm afraid it is.
Presenter
He's also very courteous to women and he's wonderful with children, especially difficult teenage grumpy boys. Is that you?
Dick Francis
I haven't got difficult teenage g boys. They're very good. Both of our sons are very good. But it it is me. I I I insist on them putting their clothes away every night, not leaving them in the sitting room and, you know, leaving books around. I I'm I'm very tidy minded.
Presenter
He's used to rubbing shoulders with um with the landed and with the wealthy, and not to mention the royal, but he also seems to me to regard himself nevertheless as a bit of an outsider. Is that you?
Dick Francis
I suppose I am, yes.
Dick Francis
it it suited the character of Sid Halley anyhow. So I I I think I wrote that into it.
Dick Francis
Most of my characters in the books.
Dick Francis
Oh
Dick Francis
A lot of them are are based on myself. They're very autobiographical.
Presenter
True.
Presenter
And you wouldn't ask them to do anything that you wouldn't do yourself.
Dick Francis
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Presenter
That's the integrity.
Dick Francis
Yes. I I I'm I'm I'm quite prepared to do, or I was at one time comple prepared to do whatever I g write my characters as doing.
Dick Francis
Number seven. Number seven now is
Dick Francis
my one of my favorites because w we go down to Devon every year for our holiday. All the family come, children, grandchildren. And this last year we were there and a young fellow used to come in and play
Dick Francis
instruments he had for music and he sang and our granddaughter Bianca, she she sings quite a lot, and we tried to persuade her to sing, get this fellow to play a tune and sing.
Dick Francis
And it was absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 3
Spend all your time waiting.
Speaker 3
For that second chance, for a break that make it okay.
Speaker 3
There's always some reason.
Speaker 3
Feel not good.
Speaker 3
And it's hard at the end of the day
Speaker 3
I need some distraction.
Presenter
And that was Bianca Frances, my castaway's granddaughter, aged eighteen, and she was singing Angel. So it's time to cast you away, Dick. In in fact, you live on a desert island. I mean, you live on an island. We live on a desert island.
Dick Francis
We live on an island. We we live on Grand Cayman. We Mary and I we l live out there where the weather's better. We went went to lived in Florida for twelve years for
Presenter
Builder
Dick Francis
Because Mary gets asthma very badly, especially when it gets cold.
Presenter
But take away all the trappings and the family and set you down alone, all by yourself, on a patch of sand, with just your music for company. How long would you last, do you think?
Dick Francis
Uh
Dick Francis
Well
Dick Francis
I I I'd be very happy.
Dick Francis
for quite some time. I I'm I'm a loner, really, and it'll I don't know how long I'd last, but I'd last a lot longer than a lot of people, I can assure you.
Dick Francis
Last record. The last l record is a tune which is a beautiful tune, uh Summertime. Uh Kathleen Battle singing it, and it's the Orchestra of St. Luke's conducted by Andre Preven. It's it's a lovely tune.
Speaker 3
Sure that you are.
Speaker 3
The crawling news.
Presenter
That was Kathleen Battle singing Summer Time with the Orchestra of Saint Luke's in New York, conducted by Andre Previn. If you could only take one of those eight records, Dick, which one would you take?
Presenter
Um
Presenter
I'm afraid I have a
Dick Francis
Let's take the channel into the tutorial.
Presenter
Why are you afraid?
Dick Francis
Well, I I do enjoy that, you know. It it's it's always called my signature tune.
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
Keep you chugging round your island.
Dick Francis
King.
Presenter
What about your book?
Dick Francis
No.
Dick Francis
My book is an old book, but it's it means a lot to me because I I read it some years ago. It was written by George Lambton. Um Men and Horses I Have Known. It's not still in print, but uh
Dick Francis
I'm sure that some copies can be re found somewhere.
Presenter
I'm sure we can find
Dick Francis
I don't know.
Presenter
And what about your luxury?
Dick Francis
There's nothing more lovely to sleep on than a water bed. M uh Mary she complained for years that the m beds in America and
Presenter
Yeah.
Dick Francis
And Florida especially, they were all so hard. So I was invited to go to Kentucky one year, just for a weekend. And my hostess said, I hope you don't mind, but you'll be sweet sleeping on a waterbed. I said, I don't mind. I can sleep on anything. Well, it was so lovely. And I had one supplied on Mary's birthday.
Presenter
Dick Francis, thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.
Speaker 2
You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive. For more podcasts please visit bbc.co. uk slash radio four.
Presenter asks
What was it that appealed to you [about the Grand National]?
I think it was the competitiveness of the Grand National because… I got a very competitive spirit. I I hate being beaten.
Presenter asks
Were you in your time ever asked to pull up a horse?
I was once I was riding one for my brother at Bangorondee where I had a lot of success and uh someone telephoned my brother the night before the races and he they put a proposition to him that I should stop the horse the next day and my brother said to them, Go to hell. Whenever I went out to ride, I went out to win.
Presenter asks
How much of you is there in [your character Sid Halley]?
I'm afraid it is… I'm very tidy minded… I suppose I am [an outsider], yes. it it suited the character of Sid Halley anyhow. So I I I think I wrote that into it. Most of my characters in the books. Oh A lot of them are are based on myself. They're very autobiographical.
“Writing, to me, is hard work. It's hard mental work. I think I've been more of a physical character all my life rather than a mental character.”
“Well it was heartbreaking, really. I I I was in a daze.”
“I got a very competitive spirit. I I hate being beaten.”
“Whenever I went out to ride, I went out to win.”
“Most of my characters in the books. Oh A lot of them are are based on myself. They're very autobiographical.”